FNH,


...you're NOT causing the harm, FNH....your WS has....by having an A...and you cannot control what he does!

...like you, at one point I also worried how the boys felt about my choosing not to see or talk to WS (as some of their friends' 'separated' parents were into friendly co-parenting..)... and my DS16 very quickly replied 'mom...I would do the same thing!'....mind you, I have two boys...and given the situation...I have found that they tend to want to protect me....but it definitely put me more at ease....and thought that maybe friendly co-parenting could actually send a somewhat more confusing message....that WS's choices based on lies and selfishness was 'acceptable' behaviour....NOT!......because I do want them to know that THEY should not have to tolerate that kind of behaviour in THEIR future relationships.... and that in life....inspite of it all....the unfairness, etc. etc...one can maintain one's dignity and respect...and with some courage and determination...move on all the same!

By putting my best efforts....'home' has regained a sense of security and 'joie de vivre' that was there before WS left...with projects and friends on the forefront...even if a 'big piece' is missing.... it's 'business' as usual!

Hang in there FNH...it does get better...slips will happen...just don't lose sight of the long-term goals and things will fall into place!

lunamare, are you me? You seem to be in my head.

Thank you so much for your thoughts. DD13 I think will completely understand but DD12 I'm unsure about. I guess it's how I explain it. Mr. W's post gave me much to think about in regards to what needs to be said and how to say it.

Mr. W,

Would you mind answering a tax question for me? I would like to file my taxes and claim both DDs as my dependants. I talked to my lawyer about this morning and he said I could do so as I have not been told NOT to. With the disclaimer that if WH files and claims them also, there could be a problem.

Do you know if I can file as Head of Household? According to the information I've found, I could do so even though I was married at the end of 2006. As long as WH was not living in the home and I was supporting DDs for the last six months.

Any thoughts? I don't imagine you can give me definite advice without knowing my complete situation but what can you tell me based on this information?

WH moved out 8/22/06

Thus...you were not separated more than 6 months in 2006 and can't file as Head of Household.

Filing Married filing separately disqualifies you for certain credits (earned income, child care, etc) so you'll need to analyze this a bit.

But, based on the informatin I have I believe that pursuant to Table 6 on the below linked IRS publication you should be all set getting the deduction for your kids because you were the "parent with whom the child lived for the longer period of time during the year". If he tries to take it too the IRS will apply the tiebreaker rules and end up denying HIM the deduction/exemption.

IRS LINK

Mr. Wondering

Thanks, Mr. W

Technically, 08/22/06 is when I locked the door and WH was no longer welcome to return. He was not spending the majority of the nights at "home" since the very beginning of June. He signed the lease agreement with OW on 07/31/06. This changes my refund by about $1,500... money that would be useful since WH is not contributing. (Yet)

How is the cut off line determined?

Thanks for the link...I will do a little more research

I tried to find the specific regulations pertaining to the "6 month" test to see if there was perhaps a on-point example. If you can document he was out of the house before June 30th for good (just some of his personal items remained) you'll likely be golden.

Your word versus his...you should win, but the dates may really trip you up. It's a pretty hard and fast rule that appears to me indicates that even one night in July ruins it.

Hopefully someone can get the full exact answer from the IRS regulations.

Mr. W

Thanks for the help, Mr. W. I'll keep looking.

You'd think this would be there somewhere, they have information about claiming a child as a dependant when they are kidnapped. Infidelity is common enough, they should have addressed it also.

Fox, you're getting some great advice here. It's really really hard, especially at the beginning (they tell me it gets easier). This comment of yours kind of jumped out at me:

--I believe he would just think I was being childish.

He will think that (Jennifer C told me this specifically--WS will accuse you of being immature), but why do you care? He's an insane alien who can only think about himself. He will do and say thoughtless, hurtful things. That's what you're protecting yourself against in Plan B. Personally, I am only starting to realize how much contact (any contact) hurts me. It gives me more resolve to be dark.

I understand the concern about what's best for your children Right Now, but keep focused on the big picture. The best thing you can do for them is whatever gets you back to a happy, stable, two-parent marriage, and that's Plan B. And I really like the idea of explaining what you are doing and why to your kids. They should be able to understand.

Thanks for your post sdguy038.

As much as I try to reason it out in my head, it does still matter to me what H thinks of me. I still want to see him as H, even though he is WH. I'm working on it, though.

If Plan B was a guarantee, it'd be a no-brainer. It's the unknown that scares me. I'm kind of playing the odds, trusting something I've never had experience with before. And look where blind trust got me before..........a WH.

If Plan B was a guarantee, it'd be a no-brainer. It's the unknown that scares me. I'm kind of playing the odds, trusting something I've never had experience with before. And look where blind trust got me before..........a WH.


Maybe look at it another way. If remaining open was a guarantee, then, sure, why not still talk to WH and give him some of the comforts of his life, meet EN's (like talking to you , and hanging around the homestead on his whim). With Plan B, you guarantee yourself some slice of happiness, of centeredness, of strength.

I had some dark days, but they were much worse when I came head to head with my WH. It was so painful to have to realize over and over I was being cast aside, or rejected. My day to day life became much easier when I was no longer in contact with WH.

Even in recovery, we all have to admit that there is UNKNOWN. With both spouses working toward a common goal, to be in love with each other and protect each other, there is a bit more stability, but it's still a slippery slope until you get a hang of it. Same with Plan B, when you get in the swing of things, you'll feel more settled. PLUS you did a good job with Plan A, reverse babble and such.

It's hard not to get discouraged, but give it time.

I'm with you, Fox. Absolutely. If I knew that it would bring my W back or even at what point I would know whether it was going to bring my W back, Plan B would be a heck of a lot easier. I won't say easy, but compared to where we are now, it would feel easy, I think. In my thread (today, I think) I admit to struggling about how to think while doing this. It's just really hard. You're getting good advice, though.

Hang in there. Be strong. Stop the contact.

SDG

Thank you for all the support everyone has given. I need a little more today......

WH had DDs this weekend. He called Friday evening and I debated on whether I should answer or not. But since he had DDs, I felt I had to. Could have been an emergency, but it wasn't:

BS: Hello?
WH: Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I'm going to have DDs meet OW this weekend. I promised you I would tell you before I did it. I asked DDs and they were fine with it.

I hung up..........and cried.

He called back a few minutes later. And I answered. WHY did I answer?! I shouldn't have! I didn't want to! But I couldn't resist!

BS: Hello? (with tears in my voice)
WH: Did we get disconnected?
BS: No, I hung up on you.
WH: Oh. Well, I just wanted to let you know. I promised I would.
BS: Yeah, and we all know how you honor your promises and live up to your obligations.
WH: What do you mean? I told you I would tell you when I was going to do it and I am. I already talked to DDs about it and they are fine with it.

And I WENT OFF! WHAT THE HECK ELSE DID HE THINK DDs WOULD SAY?! THEY ARE NOT GOING TO TELL HIM NO!? Although I doubt they said yes, DD12 I can just about guarantee said "I don't care" or "I don't know" This led into an hour long conversation. I was FURIOUS at times, HEARTBROKEN in others, and FRUSTRATED through ALL of it!

I asked him what he thought he was teaching DDs about marriage by doing this. He said we never had a marriage and two people living in misery is not good for DDs. I asked him why he married me in the first place and why he "suffered" for 15 years. He said he asks himself that every day. That he shouldn't have ever married me. (Keep in mind, just a month ago he was telling me that he searched and searched his mind to come up with something about me that would justify why he has done this and he couldn't come up with one. It was all just him)

During part of the conversation I was trying to reason (I don't know why, I can't reason with him) but I was trying to explain to him what I have gone through and how close to suicide I was. And you know what he said? "I wish you would have done it". I was speechless for a moment and then said "Did you just hear yourself? Do you know what you just said? I hope you can sleep tonight after saying such a thing to the mother of your children" He said he sleeps just fine.

He was being mean and cruel and accusing me of all sorts of things with OW H. I told him why I talked to OW H and he continually tried to turn it into the same thing he has done. I have to to admit during this tirade I called OW his POS wh()re twice. Because all the stuff he was saying to me about OW H was coming from OW. She was telling him that OW H was saying we were heavily involved. I asked him how he could believe his POS who()re who is supposedly getting information from her H. I asked if he thought that maybe OW H would lie to make OW mad and doesn't he think OW would lie to make WH angry at me? I told him to THINK about where is information is coming from.

I could hear him smoking.....sucking them down and then relighting another one. During one of the moments where I was angry, I said "suck a little harder on that cigarette WH, I hope you choke on it". And he said, "I hope I do to" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I know I shouldn't have said it, I was trying to hurt him back but that was just an odd response.

I tried everything I could to reason with him about OW and DDs. I had held it off so long, I had to put the effort in one last time.

A few times during the conversation WH would SCREAM at me to move on and let him GO - when we were not even discussing anything about that. He wants DDs in his life and I HAVE TO LET HIM GO. He doesn't want me, he is never coming back, etc, etc. To which I replied, "if this is the man you are, I don't ever want you back. I just want DDs to be safe from your bad decisions" Then he went off about how controlling I have always been and I controlled him into being a different person and this is really who he always was. I said she can have you then, you deserve each other, I'm on the verge of hating the man that you are now.

I told him one day he was going to be all alone, if he continues to treat the people he supposedly loves so poorly. He time and time again said how much he loves DDs. I have no doubt that he does. But I told him he has a chitty way of showing people that he loves them.

Again, he screamed at me to let him go and to MOVE ON with whomever I choose. I told him that as long as OW was in his life I would not be, at all. "I don't want you in my life! OW is going to be in my life forever!" (Keep in mind, last month he was telling me that it could be over tomorrow, they were just living "day to day")

I told him he needed to go through my mother for correspondence regarding DDs and to not contact me again until OW was gone. "She will never be gone!"

I didn't not tell him I was not going to parent/teacher conferences today, but I did discuss it with DDs. They seemed to understand it. I'e already called teachers and explained the situation.

Again....he tore me up and spit me out. All day Saturday, I just cried and cried. And beat myself up for even getting into it with him again. I just PANICKED and tried everything I could think of to STOP this from happening. But I lost and she won. She got what she wanted. It PISSES me off to lose to her!

DDs didn't have much to say about it when they got home. I'm not sure they were even going to tell me. I had to ask. I waited a few hours after they got back and then asked them at dinner. I didn't ask what they thought of her or anything. Just explained to them what I thought of it and that it was wrong and I didn't want this to ever happen to them, as children or as adults. That dad isn't a bad guy but is making bad decisions. And went over what a marriage should be and how spouses should treat each other. And that I was willing to do that. And I talked to them about Plan B and the reasons for it. I hope they understood.

DD13 did say she was faky, though. No surprise, she had to be nice and she would have to fake it since that is not really how she is.

AARGH!

I've already received a call from my mother that WH is asking to have DDs Feb 23-25. I've told her to tell him I have plans with DDs that weekend. Which I do. We are going out of town to a cabin to go sledding, etc. I'm REALLY looking forward to it and DDs are too.

He also said he had reread all the emails between us from the last couple of years and he could see how unhappy we both were and how mean and controlling I was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Why in the heck is he re-reading all those emails. AGAIN. Last month he had done the same thing and we had talked about it then. And now he is doing it again.....? Looking for justification that I'm so horrible that he HAD to do this.

WHOA!!! Good lord! When you break Plan B you go BALLS TO THE WALL!

You did notice how one month he says this, then the next he recants and changes it and twists it up and spits it out so that it is indiscernable, RIGHT?!

Stick to what YOU say, do not talk to him. See, he did not respond to you in the way you wanted when you answered his calls, HE WON'T, not now. DISREGARD the things about OW, they're CRAP. He doesn't know his A$$ from a hole in the wall right now. Why talk to his A$$?

Between the lines are justifications, 'see how unhappy we were' so that's my reason for choosing OW and this lifestyle. INSERT---see how unhappyblah blah buh blah bloo blee blah...

If he's rereading things from you, he's probably also looking to have his admiration need met, by reading how much you NEED him or how he's HURTING YOU. It's a fix of some kind, don't let him fool you. I know when I go and reread H's old emails, I'm LOOKING, LONGING for something, some shred of love/care. I'm seeking something to make me feel better. He's doing the same, and it's not making it feel better.

Take it EASY Foxy, take it easy, slow down, breath, open up his cage door, let him go. If you love him (which it sounds like your LB is in the red here) let him go; protect your children with all you've got, but leave HIM out of it. That conversation you had was all about HIM and YOU; I don't see your children being the focus, just my opinion.

Be the business man when confronted with him and the guise of talking about the children, no emotion, just business. Otherwise, no need to talk.

SL, thank you. I know I took it too far...I should have just not answered when he called back. I felt so PANICKED and DESPERATE to STOP the meeting from happening, though!

You are absolutely right. I know when I go back and read those emails between H and I that I am looking for something too. To remind myself of who he was and that he did love me at some point. And reassuring myself that I was good to him. Which I was.

If he is rereading the emails and letters from last fall....he is getting ALOT of admiration. I went over the top telling him what a good guy he has always been and how much I appreciated what he always did for us and telling him I was sorry for my part in our marriage falling apart. How much I believed in him...etc, etc. That I thought we could recover the marriage, etc, etc.

No more talking to a$$e$! All I hear is bull$hit.

DARKNESS! I SWEAR!

WH and DDs are at parent/teacher conferences right now. And I am not........

Fox, I'm in a similar place, I think. Just starting to realize how much contact with WW takes out of me, especially if it's the kind of gut-wrenching thing you just had. And it's why you have to protect yourself with Plan B.

WS's will do thoughtless, hurtful things. Or they will deliberately do things to provoke fights or contact. You can't let yourself get dragged into those conversations. You already know this, but you're talking with a fogged-out zombie. You're not going to be able to change his mind, but by letting him talk to you, even though you know he is an alien, you still hear some of the fogtalk he spews, and it still takes energy out of you, and you need all that energy for your kids.

If anything, it sounds like your Plan B is having an effect. Stay strong. Stay dark!

SDG

{{{{FNH}}}}

I think what happened to you is why plan B can be so good for the BS. It takes you out of the WS's warped world and you are no longer their punching bag. He is nice one minute and nasty the next. The roller coaster is too much. I had a feeling the intro to the OW would go exactly as it did. He would suddenly spring it on you and "watch" with glee as it killed you. I'd be willing to bet she's been pressuring him because she saw the fact he hasn't brougth them around her as a "victory" on your part and she just had to squash that.

I think you've said before that at this point you aren't really wanting the M back. I'd guess that part of the pain for you is feeling like she won. In OW's eyes she probably feels she has bested you. Don't be fooled, it is a house of cards. Their R will always be wraught with jealousy and mistrust. Quelch the desire to "get even" and move on with your head held high.

Plan FU would be great right about now. Keep talking to your D's about the importance of marriage and relationships as you have been. One sane parent is better than none...

PS - I also wouldn't doubt that OWH is playing up their jealousy over you guys to his advantage.

Thank you sdguy038 and familycomesfirst. I know it is for the best. I already feel better now that the decision for Plan B is made. I waffled a bit at the beginning but I am firm now. That conversation on Friday with WH was the last straw. I do not deserve that and refuse to accept it any longer.

WH emailed my mother yesterday asking for a certain weekend with DDs and telling me when I could pick when and where I was to pick them up. I have already made plans with them that weekend and asked my mother to pass that information along to WH. He then asked her when I was going to "let" him have DDs again. Yesterday was the day we had already agreed on so asked her to tell him "today from 2:45pm to 7:30pm". There was no response from him.

WH brought DDs home at 7:30 (I was in the bathtub and yelled from the bathroom "hey, girls!" They didn't answer, both went to their rooms and shut their doors. I got out and went to talk to them. According to them, nothing was wrong. But they were sure crabby. Eventually, they came out of a little bit. I talked to them about parent/teacher conferences and how it went, etc. I congratulated DD12 on all her good grades, and DD12 on her good ones, and discussed the not so good ones and what can be done.

DD13 kind of giggled and said "you should have seen Dad's face when he found out you weren't coming to the conferences." I asked if he was mad. She said no, he just had a funny look on his face and then said "it would have been nice to know that." I have to admit, I get a little kick out of that. WH has never gone to conferences by himself and doesn't hardly speak to the teachers when he comes with me. Just sits back and watches. All the responsibility was in his lap - I like that. FYI--I had already talked to teachers and they gave DDs an envelope with copies of everything WH received to give to me.

I hope he took their report cards home and stuck them on his refrigerator. Because at the bottom of one card it is addressed to Mr. & Mrs. Foxnhound1 and the other has fox and hound Smith. Unless, of course, he cut that part off.

DD13 also said the WH told her to call him when she had a test and he would go over it with her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I hope he truly means it, but I just don't see it happening. For one thing, how can you study over the phone when you don't even know what you are studying? And another thing, WH never had good study habits, how is he going to help DD13 get some? I didn't say these things to DD13...she already had that look like he was nuts if he thought she was going to call him for help on school work. Any time they ever asked him when he was living at home he would tell them to go ask me. Not that he couldn't do it....he just chose not to.

Then today, I received an email from my mother after she had received one from WH. He has come up with a schedule for DDs that goes through June 5. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Basically, demanding that I get back to him by tomorrow at noon or he was assuming all the dates were his. I agreed to some and modified the ones I didn't agree with and sent it to my mother to get back to him. It just makes me so mad! Where was this concerned parent wanting to spend so much time with his DDs a few months ago! or a year ago!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

At this point even when he asks civilly, I'm ticked. Just seing his name ticks me off!

He asked for Vigilante Day. This is a local parade put on by our high schools. The students build floats to represent something in history. There are usually about 100 and it is fun to watch. I have always taken the afternoon off and taken DDs. WH went occasionally but not usually. He normally wouldn't take off of work. Now this year he wants it. He also wants them the last day of school. This is another day that I would take the afternoon off and go get ice cream and have fun. WH was always invited but seldom came. Now he wants to this year, without me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

My lawyer is STILL waiting for his lawyer to call him back. I'm just so tired of this!

But, I'm still DARK.

OW H might be playing up their jealousy. But WH should not better. I know he mentally doesn't right now, but he still SHOULD! I have never given him reason to believe anything like what they are suggesting.

I was feeling like OW won as far as DDs are concerned. But she hasn't and she won't. The more time they spend around her, the less they will like her. The more she is pushed on them by WH, the more they will resent her. This "meeting" isn't all bad for me. I had a hard time initially because I had fought it for so long and had hoped WH would care for his DDs more than he seems to. I've heard through OW H that OW is frustrated with me and why do I think she is such a horrible person that she can not be around children. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> That has bugged her for quite a while and I'm sure she got some satisfaction out of having it done now. That satisfaction wont' last. I'm certain of it. Just like my feeling I lost to her, didn't last. The less reaction OW and WH get from me, the less satisfaction they get.

Hang in there, Fox. I know exactly how you feel. I dreaded the "meeting," too, but you have the right approach. Your daughters will be able to see through both your WH and the OW; the feeling of victory over you will be hollow, and you know it wasn't a victory at all. You're the one doing the right, heroic thing. Your daughters will know it now and all through their lives. Some day your WH will know it, too.

You totally nailed it in your last paragraph. Way to go!