And that what has to end for both of you. WH and Babs need a common enemy to keep from killing eachother. You and Babs BH need to get off the target range. I can't remember, is Babs BH looking to reconcile? If he is he needs to embrace as much of a Plan B as he can.

SL is right, if they are already at eachother this early in their soulmating they are very vulnerable. Divide and conquer.

BTW....ditto on lots of the other stuff you've said for my sitch. I read and nod, read and nod....

I think it's admirable that you care enough to keep Bab's WH out of the bars since she drove him into them. I think he is a fountain of info for you,but...you could ask him to
keep your convo's confidential, you know explain the ramifications you experience and I'd bet 2 bottles of Bud from the bar that he would agree. I don't think he wants to give her any more fuel for her fire. I don't know, a "pinkie promise" or somethin!! DD's can give you the technique.

Wow, Sis. How can people say the same thing to me over and over and over and about the 1,346,897,877 time it finally clicks and I actually "see" it. Your situation with your MIL really is a good comparison to mine with Bab's H. Thank you for clarifying that so well.

Things do get back to Bab's via her H, unintentional on his part, I think. But it still got back to her and WH. With a few twists and turns along the way, I'm sure there were some fantastic stories for WH to think about it.



Good question....I will spend some time on this. On the surface it should be an instant "no". But it isn't that simple. I had many suicidal thoughts when Bab's was first introduced to DD's and she started being such a constant presence in their lives. And it appeared that I had been completely replaced. Sitting in the house, crying uncontrollably, feeling as though no one could really help me and I could not longer burden my family with this. I was completely alone. Or thought I was.

And Bab's H would call. Just to check on me. Because he knew how it felt. Just as I felt I was responsible for what happened to his family because my M was not strong enough, he felt the same way with his responsibility towards mine. Many times he would call and I would not answer. I'd look at Caller ID and not answer because I just couldn't face him. I wanted to lay their and feel sorry for myself. If I didn't answer, he would come to my house, and literally drag me out to face the day. Made me get up, made me get dressed, made me get out in the sunshine and LIVE.

So, after all those words, the answer to that question is partly "yes".

Crying at work now......gotta go pull it together. But will be back.

Fox

I am so torn on this wild... I mean, sure it gives them fuel when you and OWH continue to have a friendship, but who the he77 are they to tell you who you can and can't be friends with? You and OWH have had to deal with your children being in their presence. It's like they just have to be in control of you two, calling all the shots. You and OWH are just supposed to roll over, let them walk all over you and do as they desire. You shouldn't expect any $ for CS and you should hand over everything of worth in your house. PUHLease!

It sounds like OWH was there for you when others were not. I can understand why you feel a "kinship" (if you'd call it that) with him. You both know how the other feels.

Jesus, Fox, I had no idea that this man was such a good friend. Well, I must say, you two should discuss what YOUR goal is NOW.

Sorry about forcing those tears, but it is a necessary evil in all of this. He chose to help you, on his own. His choice is admirable, but it will not save your marriage. Ce N'est pa vrai?( isn't this true?)

YOu must decide what you wish to accomplish, and I would fill him in. If Bab's BH truly cares for you as a friend, he will step aside.

Oh, foxy, I really don't want to be party to your pain, but you have to make a decision, draw that line. He can get help, he is a grown man, perfectly capable of pointing and clicking or picking up the phone. Admirable as he has been, his part in this RECTANGLE is complicating things


BTW ,no matter what, you DO WANT your children to have their loving, giving, put's them first, daddy back. It is what is best for the girls. Of course, I did not get that as a child, I got the too drunk to give a good god [email]d@mn[/email] about us daddy. I would have preferred the reformed, divorced from my mom, daddy.

I so wish that you lived close to me. I would slap you upside the head and then give you a great big hug, and let the tears fall where they may.

Your WH is a boob...but, hey, what's new? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yep. One more reason about how much this sucks.


I get this. I really do, but thinking about this in terms of winning and losing is not constructive, at least not in the short term. Think Big Picture. They are losing, no matter what happens in the short term. They are insane waywards, so why should you care whether or not they feel smug? They are losers. While I'm not sure you would classify yourself as a winner (there are no winners in this), you are not a loser. You are a hero. You are doing the right thing, the thing most likely to bring your WH back to his senses and restore your family, probably the hardest thing you will ever do in your life.


When you are ready for another relationship, what WH thinks (and hopefully does) about it will be irrelevant to you.

With respect to OWH, you are clearly meeting ENs for one another. I agree with SL--you need to decide what you want.

There is no goal. It isn't about a romantic relationship now or in the future. I talk to him about the things I talk to you all about. I've come to know Bab's that way. Who she is, really. Not just who she is showing to WH. That is where the majority of my conviction comes from. She WILL destroy WH because of the person she REALLY is. No one but Bab's H knows that information. He can also tell me why he fell in love with her....there is good in everyone. Those things help alleviate my fear for my children.

We've discussed fairly often the RECTANGLE and how it complicates things and what should be done about it, if anything. The desperation and need of a person IRL to keep us from the depths of dispair has waned. And now there is a debt of gratitude. I don't feel like I can just drop a friend who helped when I was at my worst. "Thanks for the help, now get out of my life."

We've discussed this...and how Bab's and WH probably started in the same way. I think we both have a firm understanding of where we each stand. He would still give his W a chance as I think I would with H. Our friendship complicates things, but doesn't make the possibility of recovery with our spouses impossible.

As we both get healthier, I expect there to be a natural distancing between us.



Absolutely, if WH could be that man.

Looks like there is going to be more drama this weekend. WH refuses to sign the mediation agreement in regards to custody, therefore, he will not be getting DDs this weekend. I've discusses this at length with my lawyer. Because WH refuses to return them as agreed and thinks he can change the rules to suit his wants of the moment, I have a good defense in doing so.

One part of me says to let it ride until the final court date, but another refuses to let WH bully me anymore. He isn't doing it to have DDs, he's doing it for control and to "show" me.

Today is his regular visitation day and that has been going as agreed. My fear is he will not return them at 8pm because he'll decide since he has them the next day, they may as well just stay.

If he does not keep themand the drama does not ensue tonight, it will begin tomorrow when I pick DDs up from school before he does.

I HATE this back and forth with the kids. I have discussed this weekends plan with DD13 and she completely agrees. I have not discussed it with DD12, I'm not sure how she will handle it. I'm planning on just telling her that Dad did not sign the plan that he agreed to so visitation is going to be changed until we come up with another one. Any other suggestions?

I think I would be open with DD12. I favor the truth. It sounds like there will be some drama, so my advice there is to keep it to a minimum as much as possible, and don't let it get to you. Know that you will get triggered, but don't let that dissuade you from what you need to do.

(((Fox)))

Gosh Fox -

I soooo agree with sdguy. Please discuss with DD12 as well. She needs to hear this from YOU, because by the time she hears from WH it will be all twisted.

Did you discuss this new plan with your lawyer?
Check with him about how you plan to handle this and what the repercussions would be if you don't allow WH to have DDs this weekend on account he won't sign the agreement.
You have done so well up till now, I would hate to see you sabotage your great workings just so that you can prove a point.
I only see these manipulations on his part as hurting his own endings.
Better to be prepared, knowledge is power.

Did he ever give you any CS?

MyBad
-----------------
Wrongs are often forgiven, but contempt never is. Our pride remembers it forever.

Grrrrr.... I'm amazed they didn't make you guys sign the agreement you guys came to in mediation that very day. The time I was involved in a mediation they had the agreement typed up before we left and all party's had to sign. That way no one got to change their minds later.

Man... it sucks that your court date keeps getting moved. I keep praying for you that this one coming up sticks. You need solid documentation in your hands. Your STBX is determined to push your buttons.

Has he paid any CS yet?

Cowgirl,

I will be honest that this worries me. Call it a bad feeling or paranoia or whatever. It has an OK Corral "line in the sand" feel to me. At the same time you know I support you to the end of time on your feelings. But for you and the girls I just don't want this to escalate into something epically ugly.

MyBad is right be sure to get you’re A’s legal thoughts.

I need to think more on this and will post later.

P.S. If it is an OK Corral I would make an excellent Doc Holiday.

LOL! I just noticed mybad asked the same Q about CS!

Thank you for all the thoughts. It is extremely helpful.

Chrisner, it has the "line in the sand" feel to me, too. I have talked at great length with my lawyer about what the repercussions could be in regards to keeping the girls this weekend. He stands behind me if that is what I chose to do and feels that we have a good defense for it.

It helps that my lawyer is a guardian ad lidum (sp) for kids in the court system and has a decent feel for how this could affect DDs and how a judge would see it.

I'm torn..... I feel like I have to draw this line for DDs sake and my own. If WH keeps pushing and I keep taking a step back off the line I draw, what does that show and tell DDs? But how big a fight could this turn out to be? I DO NOT want this turning into yanking DDs back and forth and whoever has them, keeps them until the other one can sneak them away. That is NOT good for DDs.

I want them to know that I am fighting for them and what they want, too. I don't want them to have to lie to their dad or be snuck out of school early like is going to have to happen tomorrow if I keep them.

#$^%&%$@ IF WH COULD JUST BE THINK OF DDs!!! Of course, he thinks he is and that I am the one being unreasonable and keeping DDs from him.

Now I need to go replace the keys on my keyboard because I'm typing so hard! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


Yes, WH paid CS towards the beginning of the month. Wrote in my correct name and everything. I thought he might write my maiden name like he did in the divorce papers since it appears he has decided I no longer deserve his last name.

One of the reasons I have not talked to DD12 yet, is she will feel obligated to talk to WH or she will at least dread what is about to happen.

And I don't want either DDs to have to lie to WH. WH will talk to them tonight and may tell them what he has planned for the weekend...DDs would then have to go along with it knowing that he would not have them. Or tell him that they will not be coming with him.....giving him the opportunity to cut me off on the pick up tomorrow, or not return them tonight after visitation.

My thought is to pick them up from school early, explain why (truthfully), take DDs to the parade, and then disappear for the weekend. Go out of town, rent a motel, let DDs swim, shop, etc. My mom said she will come and split the costs with me. Girls weekend on Mother's Day weekend, sounds reasonable to me. Right?.......

That's right! This Sunday is Mothers Day!!

This is so tough... I of course want you to go and enjoy the weekend with your DD's.

Since there is NOTHING signed regarding visitation at this point, it doesn't seem it could be used against you.

It will make WH mad... but he's already mad as he77 over nothing anyway. You could always play dumb and pretend to forget it was his weekend... lol

Fox -

So what will you do now? Will you call him on Friday and tell him after you have made your get-a-way?
Surely you won't let him show up expecting to see DDs only to find out you have pulled the rug out from under.
That would be extremely dangerous!
I hope you will be far, far away.
He sounds like the type to freak out and go looking and not stop till he finds you.

I worry for you my friend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I, like Chrisner, have a really bad feeling about this one.
However, I am glad to hear you have discussed it with your A and gotten some legal advise.

Please be very careful.
Hope your mothers day is a joyful one.

Truly,

MB
-------------
Each decision we make, each action we take, is born out of an intention.

Fox, I haven't caught up on things today, but I will.

One thing I wanted to say is that I, in no way, was implying that you and Bab's BH HAVE a romantic relationship. When I said that you need to decide what your goal is now, I meant in respect to doing a good plan B, staying dark against the infidels, and saving the M. NOT, what you and Bab's BH were going to do.

I meant to imply that you would have to cut the info that goes to Babs' BH so that it doesn't get back to WH/Babs. This would mean disclosing the Babs' BH what you were trying to accomplish, adn then just not exchanging info about yourself, your daily routine, vacations, or really anything with him. It would definitely put a crimp in your friendship, but you didn't marry Bab's BH, and forsaking all others kinda lumps him into that category.

I have decided to send WH an email today, simply asking "When do you plan on returning DDs this weekend?" If he responds, I will make my decision based on his answer and "tone". i.e., is he blowing smoke up my [censored] just so he gets DDs and then does what he wants. If he does not answer, which is what I expect, I will pick DDs up from school early, call WH and tell him I have them, then proceed to parade, etc. There should be enough of a crowd that we can stay hidden.

DD13 has a party to go to so we wouldn't actually be able to leave town until Saturday. I can't imagine he will wait that long to react.

I can have the sheriff on standby, though. Let them know what's up.

WH may feel just as powerless as I did and not know what to do.

I didn't show up at his door and make a scene because I didn't want DDs to have to deal with that. Will WH think along those lines or be so entitled he does it because he has the "right" to his DDs?

Tough spot.

Phew! I'm a little hypersenstive on that. I've been warned from all sides.



This has essentially happened. I've talked about Plan B with him and he is supportive. He is attempting the same thing. From what I understand, his past conversations with her about me are not civil. She is screaming about how horrible I am, how I will harm her son, how WH just wants his kids and I won't let him, how I am going to take Bab's BH house from him and steal all his money, etc, etc.

I don't think he is providing any further information anymore or building it into someething it isn't just to bother her. Their conversations are basically shut down. I understand what you are talking about here and I agree.



I'm not sure this applies anymore, but I get what you're saying.