Jennifer told me that the reason for plan B was to allow the WS to see what D would be like in the hopes of saving your marraige

Orchid: You are worth sooo much more than crumbs. REMEMBER that when he throws them your way. I asked my to put a $$ value on his family. Of course even in his fogged mind he knew he couldn't but I pressured him to. He said we were priceless. I scoffed at him because he sure wasn't treatin g us that way and he knew it. So, I started at $1mil. when he couldn't afford that payoff....I lowered it down to $750k, 500k...big jumps until I hit that magic # $87k. Why that #? Because that is the amount the OW refied her house for that year. LOL!!! I did my homework. LOL!! I stopped at that number and he looked puzzled. I babbled a few numbers of stuff he owed and projected amounts owed and it came pretty close. Then I rounded it up to $87K. I showed my disappointment and reminded him 'us priceless' people don't like to be sold out for less than $1mil. I them told the WS he was selling us up the river and he had to live with that choice. Boy did he hate that heavy guilt trip. I said it very nicely but firmly. I made my point. Whenever he gave he lip, I reminded him it was he who said his family was priceless. It sure made it more difficult for him to get testy with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So don't be desparate for his attention. U R better than that. Let him yearn for you because he DOESN'T know what u r up to. Go read Ark's post again.


Orchid: This is good but hard t/d. How are you backing off? What is your plan and who will be helping you stick to it? This is why I say to identify your personal boundaries. Once your mind and heart sync up..... you will be difficult for the WS to use and abuse. Instead you w/b able to reverse babble the guilt back to the WS and do it with a smile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Reverse babble. Not an MB suggestion but many of us have found it helpful. Maybe Dr. Harley approaches it from a different angle but if you listen to his message, he doesn't condone beind a doormat either. So he may not call it reverse babble but MHO is that he is aware it can be a useful tool.


Orchid: That is why plan B is a safer place t/b. You will get there. Soon the WS will irriate and bore you. After the exposure really what else is there?

The way I see it, the OW and WS's A is already falling apert. The WS is desparately trying to antagonize, patronize your into enabling the A for them. Did you know that? Does that infuriate you? Hope so. Now let's channel that anger in a constructive manner....u game? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


take care,
L.

I would suggest you get or keep your digital camera with you at ALL times.... when he arrives or pick up the kids take pictures, ESPECIALLY in other person's vehicle.... your not divorced yet so it can be used to build the case of what he was doing.

DO NOT TELL WHY you take so many pictures, let him figure it out... because a WS mind creates more scenario's that you could possibly imagine, first he will get nervous using her vehicle because he knows your going to use it against him, then it puts into the Waywards mind you have a plan and acting on it, third and this is big.... he starts thinking what else? Is there a PI following him, is there a microphone in his lunch box, he will start worrying about the time he is with OW - even though your not around you put something in his alien head that is buzzing around.

Stake the offensive not the defensive

Okay, my Plan B date is 01/15/07. This coming Monday, when he brings DDs home that night, I will hand him the letter (to be posted later today). One of the reasons I was so reluctant to go to Plan B prior to the D is the risk of appearing un-cooperative to a judge. And I will admit I feel so desperate for ANY attention from WH. I saw a quote on someone else's thread saying that conflict was better than withdrawal. I think we are back in conflict and my thought was if I went to Plan B, we would be back in withdrawal.

I will respond to all your comments soon...I have to get some work done.

Thank you all. Sometimes that little nudge and reminder of support is all it takes to give me a little more strength and resolve.

It absolutely matters to me that they ride in OW jeep. It REALLY bugs me and you nailed it on the head. It takes them one step closer to getting to know her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> But I also know I don't have control over what vehicle they drive when they are with WH. I do not believe it is normal but have no control. I'm doing the best I can to control the anger so I act and don't react. Sometimes, I think that is a mistakes, when I'm angry I should show it...otherwise it looks like it doesn't matter to me.

Oh.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> OW BH knows they ride in OW jeep. She traded off the vehicle they purchased together and bought this new jeep wrangler - which is a vehicle my WH had been eyeing for a while.



This part is more difficult than it appears. I would like to just stonewall and repeat the phrase that I am here to talk about rebuilding the marriage but I'm quickly running out of time and negotiations between WH and I for custody/visitation has to be worked out or the judge will do it for us. But I recognize I need to find a way to do that or it does appear like I am accepting that it is normal for your kids to meet your cheating partner. AND IT IS NOT!



I believe that Plan B is to get WH to see how divorce will be so he has the chance to change his mind. However, I feel like I am in such a short time frame and constricted by what a judge will think if I am un-cooperative on custody issues. It doesn't appear to put the children first when you won't even allow the other parent to contact you. That is the risk I am most afraid of....that I will get less time with DDs if I don't attempt to come to a common ground regarding them with WH. My thoughts regarding the M if I do the PBL after D is that it COULD be recovered afterwards and then remarriage, etc. That isn't what I want....I would rather he come to his senses and have that chance before D, but that isn't the only way it could happen.

I think we can iron all custody etc out by Monday so I can go into Plan B. Now that WH is speaking to me. How a judge will view it also depends alot on how the PBL is worded.

I feel like I've been pretty wishy/washy with this Plan B thing. One day I think that is what is best for me and then the next I think it would be best for me to stay in Plan A. I don't like to treat H/WH poorly and it hurts me to see him hurt. And I know this will hurt him.

I'm coming to the realization (on a more consistant basis) that distance (Plan B) from him is best for ME in the long run....but is it best for DDs? That is the ultimate question. What if I Plan B and it drastically fails and WH is an emotional wreck all the time....DDs still have to deal with that, even if I don't.



Yeah, like I need something more to think about! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Somehow, I have to figure out how to STOP thinking about some things.

My first step in backing off is not being so directly accessible....not answering the phone immediately when I see on caller id that it is him...let him leave a message and I will get back to him...and not meeting face-to-face anymore for custody issues. We both have our "assignments". I am writing up the interim plan and he is writing up the long term plan. Both were discussed during our last get togethers and now we are typing them up for the others final approval. I can also have someone else answer the phone at work when I know it is him and tell him I am not there...and then return is call later if I feel it is necessary. There is no where right now that he does not get direct access to me. What he has also started doing is calling one of DDs on their cell phones (because he shut mine off), talks to them for a little while, and then says "can I talk to your mom" Again, direct access, he knows where we are and what we are doing ALWAYS. Which he has a certain right to with DDs but I'm right in there with them so he always knows what I am doing too.



He!! yeah, I'm game. Let's do it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dear Ms Fox- I keep up with your situation and am pleasantly surprised at the turn of events with WH. I just wanted to say that I think your Plan B timing is perfect, because the last interactions he's had with you show he is in turmoil and you have handled them so well- loving and kind and no LB's. He obviously is conflicted- he needs to see what it will be like when you D. No fantasy of being friends or "Co-parenting." Whatever.

No judge would think you're being uncooperative as long as the transfer of DD's goes all right. Nothing says you have to be around him.

Good luck!

Revised Plan B letter....please help me refine. Thank you

Dear WS,

I regret that we find ourselves in the situation we’re in. I never imagined this would happen to us.

I still believe we can have a happy, loving, fulfilling marriage. I believe we can learn from our mistakes, grow from them and with effort and desire we can begin to slowly rebuild the love that was the foundation of our marriage and start to become a family again, for our sake and our daughters’. I believe we can have a marriage based on trust and honesty where we both feel safe sharing our innermost thoughts, feelings, fears and dreams. The kind of marriage we both imagined when we said “I do”. I’m not naïve, I know there’s been a lot of damage done. It won’t be easy but it can be done.

I’ve suffered tremendous pain from seeing our marriage fall apart, learning about your relationship with OW and dealing with impending divorce, but I never stopped loving you and I never forgot what a wonderful person you are and how much joy you brought me. That gave me strength and hope to go on. But the pain has become too much to bear.

I do not want this divorce. I want to be your wife, in every sense of the word. I want to hold you, talk with you, laugh and cry with you, comfort you, share the joy of raising a family with you. As much as I want this, you have made it clear that you don’t, and as long as you feel this way, I cannot be a part of your life except as the mother of your daughters, it is simply too painful. Therefore, I must ask you not to contact me except for emergencies regarding DD13 and DD12. This is something I believe is necessary to preserve and protect the love I still have for you before it slips away. If you need to vary your visitation schedule, call my mother and give her the information and she will get it to me.

As always, I will continue to be the best mother I can be and do whatever is necessary to insure our daughters’ happiness and make their lives as fulfilling as possible.

If, down the road, you have a change of heart and decide you want to give our marriage a chance, I am open to discussing it with you and working out a plan to restore our marriage and make it what we only dreamed it could be. For me to even consider reconciliation with you, you have to completely remove OW from your life, be willing to go to marriage/individual counseling with me to work on our marriage and to take whatever actions are needed to help us both recover from this and work on things. I can no longer permit you to be a part of my life without this commitment. It is all or nothing. No marriage, no friendship, nothing except minimal contact between us needed to take care of our children. Other than that, there is nothing further for you and I to discuss until you’ve taken these steps to repair our relationship. I still love you, and as I said before, I believe in our marriage and I am willing to do whatever is necessary, but until you are also willing, please respect my wishes.

All my love,
BS

Any suggestions on PBL?

I am no expert - but it sounds good to me.
I didn't see anything that I would change.

Fox,

My suggestion isn't totally MB like but when you put the family against the WS, your case as a BS is stronger. So instead of I, change it to 'the family', children and I, etc.

Show a unified front.

The plan you outlined about NOT being available is good. He needs to yearn for the reason why he misses his family. The WS must die for your H to live.

As to further suggestions, beside what you have planned, include your support group. Learn to babble back and NOT take his guilt.

You can use his own words against him. For example:

WS: I don't want to hurt you, that's why I want you to get the D started.

BS: Yea, I don't want t/b hurt either, so you stop having an A and stop hurting our family.



WS: Here's $50.00. Can I borrow 200.00?

BS: Give me 500.00 and I'll think about it.



WS: Don't you love me?

BS: Not sure, let me get back to you on that.

Make him stew, make him wonder. The more time he spends thinking about his family (that yearning thing), the less time the A will have.

For you to go to plan B, your mind and heart must be in sync. Episodes like what you experienced will be handled a more straight forward. A good BS will bury the WS and let their real spouse emerege. Of course this is if the WS is already in that dying state. It is ok to help the WS cease existing and let your real spouse come home. With improvements of course.

So don't be too available for your H. Hard to do initially. .... then it gets easier. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Fox,

I think you did an exallent job on you PBL! Your boundaries are very clear. The only thing I would consider changing is:
You need a stronger boundry here, don't ask him... tell him: Therefore, I will no longer have any contact with you except for emergencies regarding DDs.

I am so proud of you for taking a stand! You will have to be very very strong. Remeber when he came to pick up the girls bags for the overnight? You saw him in the OW jeep? Hurt didn't it? Well this plan is to ensure you do not see these things moving forward. If you had not seen it, you would not have been hurt because you would not have known. You do not need to know anymore details than you already do about WH and OW. Way to painful!

Keep posting please and take very good care of YOU! This is your time now! From here on out it is all about the healing.

MB

***********************************************
"Do-so" is more important than "say-so."
***********************************************

Fox,

You are picking very good timing on Plan B! The PBL sounds good, and as Orchid says, just be sure your WH understands that the 'FAMILY' is on the same page...

I think that you are amazing, you've done such a good job holding to Plan A, showing compassion, and love. Please keep us updated. And don't worry about your story being 'boring', as I've seen you post in the past, it's important that you know that you have people here to talk to. Plan B is very quiet, and your thoughts can run wild, so be sure to post those here, don't try to contact your WH, come here, tell us, let us talk you down...

Hi Fox,

Your PBL sounds good... and I would agree with the others... if you are up to it, PLAN B is the way to go to allow WS to 'live' the consequences of his choices... no YOU.... no FAMILY.... his choice!

Please remember....expect YOU and WS to both want to find 'excuses' to talk to each other.....NOT GOOD! ....for WS to take your boundaries seriously....you MUST not succumb to the 'temptation'..... EXPECT it to be difficult.... you will have to figure out how to 'keep busy'!

...remember to come here, instead....we will help you to let the 'momemt' pass....

thinking of you this weekend!

foxnhound1 ,

How did you make out with PBL? Just thinking about you and want to make sure you are doing OK.

MB

me, too....

How are you doing fox?

Things can sure change in a couple of days. I need more advice on what to do about the Plan B letter. My initial plan was to give it to WH tonight after his visit with DDs was over. But.....now he is giving me grief about getting them back.

However, things have changed a great deal. WH lost is mind over the weekend and has accused me of messing around with OW H. I had already told him that OW H and I have talked. He has blown everything out of proportion. And it all honesty, it probably didn't look good. OW H and I went to a rodeo together on Saturday....as friends and absolutely nothing else. WH found out and showed up and made a HUGE scene.....how can you bring your married girlfriend that you have been living with for months to confront your wife that you think is seeing someone? I don't know how that makes sense in his mind....but he came absolutely unglued and said some insanely nasty things. There is a whole long story with this that I will have to relay to you later when I have more time.

But the main thing right now is DDs. I was supposed to pick them up yesterday afternoon and then WH was going to pick them up from me this morning since they don't have school and he had taken the day off to spend it with them. When he was spewing venom on Saturday night he said I could have them Tuesday after school. I talked to DDs last night, who know nothing of what happened, and they sounded good, WH had movies and they were having a good time (at Grandma's where they are spending the nights). I told them if they wanted to they could stay one last night. Then I talked to WH and told them the girls wanted to stay again and was that ok with him...I was trying to turn it around and take the power away from him...it wasn't his decisions to keep DDs another night, it was my decision to offer to him. However, tonight is a different story...tomorrow is a school day and they WILL be home tonight. I have a call into my lawyer to see what I can do.

OK, I'm ready for the 2x4 about OW H. I know, I know, I know. But it was nice to go watch a darn rodeo with no "relationship" pressure.

WH told DDs that he had a meeting on Saturday night...that is when he came to jump my case. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, after this...what to do about the Plan B letter? Does it even apply anymore. He said some very interesting things in between all the accusations and nasty talk. Like how "as of today, I feel nothing for you, I'm done". Wasn't he "done" before? He must have said that at least 7 times. And I have to admit, I lost my temper too, but did not call names or accuse or say nasty things to him. I did egg him on a couple of times when he stepped to me aggressively....but he had brought a buddy to hold him back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I encouraged him to hit me and I think he was close a couple of times. I really think he feels betrayed, lied to, cheated on, etc. Why does he think he has the right to those feelings....aside from the fact that it just isn't true, can't he look at what he has done? Where does he feel he even has the right to accuse? I really think WH is losing his mind. What I saw in his eyes was just insanity.

Anyway, I met OW. Yuck, is all I can say about her. She has known for a couple of weeks that I was going with her BH to this rodeo. She held that information until the first weekend WH has his girls and isn't spending time with her. I KNOW WH didn't know until Saturday, why did she wait so long to tell him? To ruin his weekend with his DDs, to turn him on me? WTF?

He also said he didn't think I knew what I was getting into with OW H and that being friends is how it starts...threw a fit about me bringing OW H into DDs lives...which is soooo far from the truth. Just his insane mind blowing everything up to justify his own actions.

So again, does Plan B letter still apply?

I think I'm on such an adreniline rush still...I don't think my post made a whole lost of sense. I'll lay it out better later...but you've got the gist of what happened.

I would continue with the Plan B letter.

Did he bring OW along to confront you? YIKES!!!!!!!

It was probably not a good idea to go to the rodeo, but you can't take it back now. OW's husband and I remain good friends after 3 and a half years of this.

Give us more details. This is just too DELICIOUS.