EGG ZAK LEE

He Wants to interact with you, even if it's just fighting. "Even negative interaction is better than no interaction at all" is something that my IC throws at me every now and then, and for WS's it's true. Let him twist. It will "hurt" him more than engaging with him but is also the best thing you can do to help him.

Yes, you're angry. If I get any tips on what to do with the Anger Bank, I'll let you know. You have every right to be angry. Just because it's self-righteous anger doesn't mean that it's not right. Of course you're right, and he's wrong. I predict that, at some point, someone who knows more than I do will ask you "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?"

If I could show up at your place and let you vent your anger on me somehow, I would. . . .

You could come to Denver and punch Wayzilla!

That just made me think of the movie "Steel Magnolias". There was a point when Sally Field's character says, " I just want to hit something, and hit it HARD", and Olympia Dukakis says (of Shirley Maclaines character) "HERE, HIT THIS...half of the parrish would give their eye teeth to take a whack at WHEEZER!" Insert Wayzilla there!

I LOVE that movie SL!

SDGuy is so correct, even negative attention is attention. Just like my 2 yr old... if you figure out how to deal with it, I'm all ears! I can't watch TV or talk on the phone w/o all he!! breaking loose. So, I rarely talk on the phone or watch TV.

O/T: Isn't that the same movie where they shoot firecrackers into the trees to get rid of all the birds for the wedding? I love that movie too. Or am I thinking of Fried Green Tomatoes?

You got it princessmeggy! It also scares WHEEZER's dog, causes him to lose his hair!

Don't talk about me like I'm not here!!!

Fox,

I know I don't post to you very often....something about being in the throws of my own situation. I have to give you credit in your strength for not sending that e-mail. It's a strength I am working on... I have a feeling I may have sent it after and then regretted it.

And I ahve to agree with you... I feel the same way about how sometimes it feels like the "vets" are ignoting us if we are not doing it exactly by the book.

(((hugs)) to you and your DD's.

Still

You owe this idiot nothing when its not his visitation time, period, end of discussion. Stick to it!

Honestly, and seriously – if you really want help, you really gotta drop the attitude. I would not be surprised to find that this is one reason why the ‘vets' have stayed away. I’ll know better after I read your thread.
While I will agree with you that opinions can differ, facts can not. And to finish my previous thought…there are opinions and then there are opinions.

The belief that everyone’s opinions are EQUIVALENT is nonsense.

For example, if I want an opinion on how to best expose my husband’s affair…I’m going to ask Melodylane (not to pick on Mel!), and while everyone may be free to chime in, her opinion is going to carry more weight – why? Because she’s not only lived through it herself and successfully applied the principles in her marriage, but because she has helped many other people ALSO successfully apply those principles.
I am NOT going to give the same weight to the opinion of someone who is still in crisis themselves, hasn’t applied the principles themselves, and just hasn’t had the time and experience on these boards.

If I want to know how best to reverse babble back to my fogged out WH…I’m going to ask Orchid for help. If others reply, I’ll be glad for the responses….but Orchid’s opinion is going to carry far more weight than a newcomer who can’t manage to stop lovebusting long enough to Plan A in his or her own situation.


Sadly you miss the point.

What happened on LilSis’s thread earlier is what I call enabling. She acted out and got on the boards to tell us why she was right to do those things.

She didn’t want to hear (not initially) any disagreement.

And sadly, there was a group of people on that thread whose only (good) intention was to shut down anyone else who made Sis feel bad by disagreeing with her and pointing out some serious flaws in her thinking and behavior. All in the name of protecting her from those evil bad bullies that were enjoying her pain! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

This is what I call harm. It’s what I call enabling. Any time we create a comfortable environment for unacceptable behavior…it’s enabling.


Fully? No, because I witnessed your well intentioned help on these boards earlier enable lovebusting behavior.


You could not be more wrong.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. You will never ever ever forget what your spouse's affair felt like. You will heal, you will find relief from the pain…but you will never forget.

Why do you think we are still here? We know, we understand and we like to think that we can provide assistance to those coming after us.

What you newcomers don’t realize is that we have a much broader picture of the journey you have ahead of you. We’ve traveled it ourselves. We have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. We have been here long enough to have helped countless others who have passed through. We know where the pitfalls and the traps are. We know that if you are coddled, and babied, and enabled in your victimhood instead of being treated as grownups with the ability to take responsibility for your lives…you will never get down the path to the place called Acceptance….Healing…Recovery. You will stay stuck in the well of pain at the beginning of the journey…


I am not in the habit of typing one thing and meaning another. I wrote the word “Lives”.

What you haven’t yet learned is that what you need to learn to save your life is the only thing that will save your marriage. While your marriage isn’t guaranteed, the life lessons are required no matter the outcome.



That is not apparent from your attitude, seriously. I realize that the truth is you are trying to survive, but you aren’t helping yourself here!


Why are you pre-deciding the outcome here? Why bother if you know that all the vets are suddenly going to flood in and rip you apart?

Ok – you want to hear my theory about why the vets have avoided your thread and many of the others…?

I can tell you why I have avoided so many of those threads.

I’ve become very choosy about who I will help, because there are very few people who are truly interested in learning.

I am often reminded of my rebellious teenagers when I read the posts from your particular group of supporters.

They think they know it all too. They think I just don’t understand. They think I am being MEAN and I enjoy watching them SUFFER. I don’t GET IT…I’m too old and I’ve forgotten what it’s like to be a teen!

You collectively have the eye rolling, smart mouthed attitude that no one but our own flesh and blood parents will put up with.

You and I both know that as adults, we have such a deeper, wider, longer, more mature view of what our kids face…and we have NOT forgotten a darn thing.

We get our teens. Our teens don’t get us, they can’t because they haven’t been where we have been.
It’s the same difference here between the vets and you guys, except…you aren’t our flesh and blood…we don’t owe you the same kind of patience and enduring guidance that we are willing to do for our children.

That’s why you guys are getting ignored. Not because plan B is boring. Not because no one cares.

We just aren’t going to help people that fight us every step of the way.

There are no shortcuts in recovery…marital or personal…there are NONE.

Certain things are required – first of all, a willingness to acknowledge that your own best efforts, intentions, thoughts, ideas and opinions are what contributed in bringing your marriage to its knees in the first place. As Dr. Phil says, “Hows that working for you?” It’s not a judgement on you – we all get here the same way.

(I already here the protests - not from you specifically)….

There is a requirement that you be willing to acknowledge that perhaps you don’t know all the answers, and that perhaps someone else has a better plan, and yes, perhaps someone else knows more than you do about what it will take to get to where you want to be.

You have to be willing to let go of pride, and be WILLING to surrender your own self-will to a power greater than yourself. In this case, the MB concepts.

When I stick my head in most threads, there is an in your face, “my opinion is as good as yours” tone going on whenever a vet attempts to offer insight. I’m not saying that vets shouldn’t be questioned. I’m not saying that a spirited discussion is out of line. But most days, I wonder why you guys are here.

The Plans are not a buffet table that you get to pick and choose from. There are really significant reasons WHY for everything. I think you’ll find that the vets are perfectly willing to have a respectful calm discussion about these things, if you ask nicely.

These concepts are NOT intuitive, and I guarantee you, if these concepts were understood by you in the first place, your chances for even being here would be a lot smaller!

I do not believe everyone's opinions are EQUIVALENT. I don't think I said this.

How do we know about all those people listed? Who's specialty is what? No one has dropped by, introduced themselves, and said "I have a suggestion for you, this is what I see". Instead I'm hearing from you that they pop in, see an attitude and leave. Maybe that poster was having a crappy day and DID have an attitude, maybe they don't always have that attitude.

If only certain people have true value to their posts, why don't the moderators only allow those certain people to be able to post outside their own thread?

You are right, I lend more credibility to the people I think have experience and knowledge, but I don't discount others either.

You are asking me to trust you based only on the fact that you popped in today and told me you are more worthy than others. I'd like to know your whole story.



Because of the timing of your posts. Few knew I existed until a dared have something to say outside my own thread.



Where do you get that I think I know it all? If I thought we knew it all I would not be here. Communication is a two way street, BR. I've said many times that I admire and appreciate yours and other vets' posts. I've heard from you that my opinion is not valuable and I'm a smart-aleck know it all.

Calling names and telling me that no one but my own parents could put up with me is not the way to build a trusting R with me. I disagreed with 1 thing you said and here we are.



How do you know we don't realize this? I realize this or I would not be browsing OTHER threads to see what advice you and others might be giving there.



So I will DIE?



Prior to today, where have I fought every step of the way?



I do acknowledge this. I'm responsible for 1/2 that marriage.



This bothers me, BR. You are telling me what I think. I have never said otherwise. I do not think what is implied here.



I don't know exactly what to say to you about this one, BR, as I don't have a specific instance. I have not said that my opinion is "just as good", just that I have one. Maybe we are looking for a spirited discussion and get there differently than you do. Maybe it's a generation gap, not agewise, but Infidelity Agewise. I don't have a response for this one as I don't see this being the case.



I've had some discussions with vets and watched other threads. You're right, they have been willing. There are also times that a squabble gets going on a thread between vets that just doesn't seem to end. Takes away from their credibility.



Agreed, wholeheartedly. When I counseled with Jennifer I told her how I wished I had found this information before H and I fell apart. There is no disagreement on this point.

I was going to let the LilSis thing go, but I have one more thing to add. It isn't WHAT was said to her it was HOW it was said that I took issue with.

Thank you for your thoughts, BR.

Fox

Fox - Vets have been reading all along. Your entry on LS's thread didn't bring me here. But I have seen more than enough disrespect for experience (not necessarily from you) on several threads, to tread cautiously.

Your thread is one of the few I bookmarked when I removed the MB main discussion board index from my list of favorites, after I saw one of your fans on another thread spew vile hatred and insults at someone in retaliation and I just decided life is too short to come here to share, listen, give experience, strength and hope where possible, and pray for the rest - and you have been in my prayers - and view that kind of negativity. I get riled up way too easily and sidetracked from the purpose for which I choose to still come here.

If you were read BR's insights from July 5th(6:29 pm Montana time) and again tonight (July 6th), from the perspective that you were welcoming someone's wisdom and insight so that you didn't have more of the same pain each time your WS makes you his dumping ground for all of his negative emotions (so he doesn't have to dump them on Babs) rather than get a "you go girl" for once again engaging your emotions on this waste of a man...

BR chose her words carefully and sensitively with you in both posts, and others. I just wish you could see it. There is so much wisdom in this woman, and all you see is guile. (and you're being egg'd on by someone with issues about I don't know what - but they see rudeness where there was little or none of it in word or intent).

Be careful who's eyes you choose to see this through. You have done well with teaching your daughters right from wrong in a very horrible situation. They could also be learning composure and how to walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil. You're not there yet and I'm not sure that's a path you've even seen as possible to obtain.

I'd love to have you pick up a book called "The Four Agreements" so that you could learn how to shield yourself from evil that comes from Babs and her puppet. You deserve serenity. You will find more of it from learning from BR and other "less indulgent" vets, than you will from those giving you the who-rah!

Thank you for being here, KaylaAndy. You have posted to me before and I appreciate what you had to say. I hope I told you so at the time.



Agreed. I've seen it, too, and can understand why time and effort is carefully doled out. I truly do appreciate the time and effort many people here give. Keeping up with my own thread for a while was a chore...let alone keeping up with others. I don't normally offer advise to others because I realize I'm not as experienced as others. Most of the time it is just a reach out to let someone know they are not alone.



I'm glad that you stuck with me, I'm sorry I was unaware you were out there. I can't help what R one poster has with another and what one may do on another thread. I would hope if someone has a problem with one poster, they would put that poster on ignore and continue offering their own view.

Very few have stuck with me for the long haul. Those that have, I am thankful for.





I'm honestly processing her views. I do recognize the wisdom and insight that is there. I may not be able to convey that in a post very well, but I am doing it.



I can't completely agree with this....but won't completely disagree either. I really don't just see guile. My back is up today, I know that. I'm responding without some of my thoughts completed or just not posted well what I'm acutally thinking.



I can relate.



I will look into this book. Thank you for the suggestion.

Thank you, too, for your thoughts and views, I will continue to think about all that was said.

Fox

Wild ~ The majority of my post was not addressing anything specific you in particular have said or believe.

I am addressing some of the group-think I've seen you participating in - but honestly....if anything I've said doesn't apply to you...don't apply it.

You wanted to know why vets don't stop in. I gave you some ideas - I didn't go through your thread and pick things out and say: LOOK HOW EVIL YOU ARE.

I spoke in general terms and left it up to you to take it and honestly examine yourself to see if anything applies.

What we do know now, is what you think doesn't apply.Did you gain any insight in perhaps what MIGHT apply to you?

If what you say is true, that you've been posting on this thread all this time and no vets have stopped in to say hi - trying going outside of your thread to meet them - sans the argumentative tone.

The whole "timing of your posts" thing is getting old.

If I wanted to trash you, I could have and would have done that already - and I wouldn't have bothered to come over here to talk with you first.

You can keep second guessing my motives...or you can listen...

And with the "I have to trust you" stuff....

Trust helps. But listening with an open mind is not going to hurt you. I am not asking you to leave your ability to think and choose for yourself at the door...

You don't need to trust me - thats what your own dang brain is for - to protect yourself. If you think what I am saying to you is going to hurt you - you are a GROWN UP and don't have to take it in.

You (specifically) are arguing with my methods instead of listening to the message....

Now ... I'm headed out of town today and I don't know if I have internet access at the condo my husband rented. If I do, I'll be back, otherwise...we'll have to carry on in a week.

Wild,

I have just spent about 25 minutes (maybe more) reviewing your thread. I didn't read every single post by you but enough to see the following:

Dec 2006, WS asks to come back.
No plan for recovery
Recovery failed

March, May, June & July......various forms of plan A and B all intermixed, letters to lawyers, lack of CS support, DD's meet OW, sporadic interaction with OW's H..... no real plan or direction.....

Bramble Rose posted in July asking about your plan or direction.

So far, I haven't really seen any. I can see you trying something and at times it is good but not complete.

What message does this give the WS or even your DDs? I realize you have been carrying a big burden here like many a BS but what I also see is you have allowed yourself to carry more of the burden than you should. The WS demands you accommodoate his need to see the children on his schedule, you reply but still you are frustrated with no relief for you.

It is sad to see you carrying this burden. What is also quite evident is that not many are encouraging you to have a plan. Kudos are ok but support requires more.

Let us know when you are interested in a plan for you.

Btw, as for the vet comments.....we maybe here a bit longer than others but we are not required to post to anyone. We share and read where and when we can. All of us have lives separate from MB with jobs, families and other obligations. Remember most of us have been through what you are going through and many of us do NOT want to see our mistakes repeated by anyone else. I don't claim t/b a vet but seen it implied by others a lot. I am older than many who post here but definitely not the oldest or the wisest.....just a person willing to give back some of the great support I got.

The support I received here had some kudos but mostly support. I got the MB 2x4 when I didn't apply myself correctly. That was a good thing because anything less would have hurt me more. MB helped me NOT be in the fog myself. Let me see the value of having a plan and a purpose to get out of the madness the A puts us in.

Eventually I was able to turn the tables and the WS was not able to dictate my life. During that transition I learned to identify my personal and M boundaries, allowed my mind and heart t/b in sync, prayed and got that clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. I endured much then and was able to regain the control in my life.

When the WS babbled, I learned to 'reverse babble'. This meant I gave him back his guilt. I gave the OW a run for her $$ also. At one point the OW commented how 'scared' she was of me. LOL!!! You gotta know that I am under 5' tall..... so height isn't the scary piece....OW is 5'4" but she pretended she was scared of me, so I used that tool to say Boo and a few other RB things.... I have lots of stories I peridically share to prove my point. OW didn't have to fear me, what she should have feared is her own actions. I was merely 'exposing' them. Yea.... like when I went into her neighborhood and mentioned to a neighbor about how OW likes to have MEN over (WS' truck was at her house at the time), I warned the neighbor to watch his young teenage son and maybe warn the other men in the neighborhood because she likes to take men into her home. LOL!!! That went over quite well since she was a bit psycho. She had made the point of telling me her neighbors liked her. Well that evening when I went to deliver some insurance paperwork to the WS' truck (since he refused to pick them up - he thought that would stop me from changing our insurance - hmmph), I found out that her neighbors don't think she is that great. LOL!!! See if her actions didn't taunt so..... I wouldn't have done that but Hey.... that's her choice.

Also when the WS accused me of being too controlling. At first I use to deny it, then I later found out.... hey, control isn't all bad. So I went with the POV that Yea.... I am controlling. Why? Because I need to be. I told the WS he had no control and I certainly was NOT going t/b like him so if I 'seemed' controlling it was because I AM!!! That reverse babble line gave me back my power and sent him cowering. Stupid WS'.

Now what I believe BR is trying to say is that you really need a plan. Right now you make some good moves forward but taking a look at the past 8 months of posting you haven't really moved forward that much. What do you think?

Actually the fact that BR even posted to you to get you thinking is a good thing. Yea, it sparked a lot of emotional responses but I am hoping it also made you think.

BR invested quite a bit of response time. Something she doesn't do that much anymore. BR is a busy lady and when she takes the time to respond, like Mel, Pep, Resilient, Believer, Mimi and many others welp.... it might just do well to give a listening ear.

So step back a bit, take a look of where you were vs where you are vs where you need to be.

Is your mind and heart in sync yet? If so, then major changes s/b in the making. Major ones.

JMHO,
L.

BR: I hope you have a great vacation with your H.



Yes, I did. I VERY rarely post in the middle of the night. My last post here last night was 1:30am. I didn't get to sleep until after 3, mulling this all over in my mind, trying to get myself off the offensive. Up again early, with it right back in my brain. And here I am again, posting on a weekend, which I also rarely do.



Done this, too. I've gone on other threads and said thank you for posting and that it helped me in my situation. Know what I got back? nothing, nada, zippo. NO acknowledgement that I even posted. Even a short "your welcome, glad I could help" would be nice.

I don't tend to be a butt-kisser and I feel like I'm being asked to do that in order to be bestowed with the wisdom of others.



I'm glad you said this, BR. That is what I feel I am being asked to do.



This is accurate. I find some of it abrasive and I do have difficulty looking past the stuff that rubs me the wrong way to even FIND the message. The same message could be said to me in a less abrasive manner and I would GET it without all the struggling to FIND the message.

I'm not asking you to coddle me, just treat me with decency.

Fox

There was never any wish by WH to Recover. It was never asked, it was never tried. There was no failure.



I don't think Plan A was in there during this time at all. A poor Plan B, at times, but never what I consider a Plan A.

There is no plan or real direction right now. I'm trying to stay in Plan B and at this point recover my own sanity. I am at a stalemate, I don't know what to do next or whether I should even bother. No matter what I do, my WH has a say and what I do may not be what is necessary for him to want to recover.

I don't know what message this gives to WH or DDs. I don't know a way to do it better right now. I'd love help with that. Please know I may ask questions on an idea so I can wrap my head around and feel comfortable with applying it. My DDs are at risk here and I have to be confident what I am intending to do will not harm them further.



This made me step away from the computer and cry for a moment. THANK YOU for the acknowledgment of this! This is HEAVY right now. These last couple of days have caused my knees to buckle a bit.



I get this...I really, really get this. It is difficult to convey the depth of gratitude in a post, but please know it is there.



I think you are absolutely correct. I'm at a plateau and I don't know how to get to that next tier. I'd greatly appreciate assistance with that.



I'm listening...don't doubt I'm listening.



I don't know where I need to be or how to get there once I figure out where I need to be. I can look back and see how far I've come, but I can't see where I'm going right now. I'm dealing day by day right now. Today is today and I'll deal with what comes. Tomorrow will be dealt with tomorrow.



I don't know.....at times I think so. I don't know how to gauge this anymore.

Thank you, really, for all the time you have taken here. I do recognize that you are giving me moments of your life that you don't have to.

Fox

Plan B doesn't work well if plan A isn't completed properly. So let's get you back on track. Looks like both you and the children need direction. Spinning in a circle makes me dizzy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It may be well if we can talk. I'm in Hawaii and have free weekend minutes. You game? I'm home this morning just cleaning house and can take an MB break anytime. LOL!!!

Here's my e-mail address: **edit**

Hugz,
L.

I'm game...please check your email.

Fox

U gots mail! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.