*applause*

You rock, Fox.

You do rock!!!!

Thanks!

I called the courthouse today and found out my new court date.

August 14

DD12's birthday.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Put in a call to my lawyer to see if we can move it here or there a couple of days. I REALLY REALLY do not want DD12 to have to go talk to a judge about her parents' divorce on her birthday. She is scarred enough.

I forewarned him to stay away from August 20, too, as that is DD13's birthday.

Geez amoley.....

Fox

Wow, you had those girls literally a year apart!!

Best of luck, I hope you get a good court date that STICKS for a change!

Is this the trial date or is it just a hearing?

Hi Wild ~ was just catching up...

I wanted to point something out that kinda just leapt off the page at me:


When I read this...

I see your husband practically begging to be needed.

I see him making efforts to be involved earlier when he had your daughter call about the schedule.

Sure he could have sought out information on his own from someone else...but he didn't. Who cares? He sought the information and you withheld it. He didn't do it the way YOU thought he should do it, (ie he didn't do it RIGHT) and so you resented him for it and LB'd him instead.

Your daughter would have liked him to be there, no? Does it matter how he got there?

Going back to the exchange over your doing both events - he was practically begging you to say: I can't do it all, could you help?

Marriage is a partnership.

Your husband is responsible for his relatioship with his children. If he screws it up, thats not something you should jump in there and manage. He needs to deal with the consequences of his own behavior.

Your disgust and disrespect is dripping from your post.

You wrapped yourself in self-righteousness, rather than let your daughter be thrilled that her father attended her event...

He is 50% responsible for parenting your children, and he doesn't have to do it your way.

You, my dear, need a break from being a victim. You did those 2 events, wrapped in victimhood and selfrighteousness (my loser husband that cant be trusted forces me to be wonderwoman!).

If your children are not in danger, what is wrong with letting him do things HIS way - even if it means he screws it up? You are not and can not be responsible for his relationship with your daughters.....ANYMORE than you were responsible for your father's relationship with your mother...

See where I am going with this?

fcf, yes, a week short of being exactly a year apart. Them were crazy days! Kinda neat now, though. Definately easier now that they are older!

It is tough at time letting DD13 be the "oldest" because really, anything that she can do DD12 is capable of, too. Tough, but we do it.

Just got back from another basketball game. DD12 did excellent! I'm not biased at all, either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WH was there, brought DD13 and our neice (7yrs). I sat near them but not with them. Said hi to neice, etc.

When b-ball game was over, DD12 came over to talk to us. Handed me dirty clothes to wash for tomorrow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WH moved close and asked if I just wanted to pick up DD13 from him after the game this evening. Which would be a 1/2 hour earlier than his regular drop off time. "if that works for you, fox" I told him it worked for me and then turned away from him to speak to DDs. "I thought that might make it easier for you so you don't have to hang around for just a 1/2 hour" I said "Thanks, that works well for me" Then I asked DD13 if that was ok with her, she said yes. Finished up with DDs, said goodbye to neice and left.

Seems like he is going out of his way to say he is willing to work with me about DDs. I'm definately cautious....

He's really trying to look into my eyes and speak...while I duck and dodge and try to stay distant from him. Answering him but not really conversing with him. Make sense? I REALLY am trying to stick with Plan B! The kids events make it difficult.

I wonder how much his Mr. Nice Guy act has to do with the fact the Bab's BH is out of town...and will be for a while.

PM, its the trial date. There have been no further negotiations. I think we should try...but I'm not sure we should bother. We did that before and WH came to some agreements and as soon as we walked out the door, he changed his mind.

Honestly, the status quo is working for me right now. He has begun paying child support and although I'm not thrilled with visitation, I can live with it right now.

Fox

BR thank you for your post. I did see all these things.

I wondered in those moments if he was wanting to be needed.



I was trying to figure out how to do what I wanted to do (give him info because that is always what I do and it does benefit DDs) and what I SHOULD do based on MB principles.

I WANTED him to help and I WANTED to help him by giving him that information. But....when is he ever going to see that by my doing this is a gift to him, not his right that I make his life easier.

I thought being in Plan B was forcing him to see what D and separation is about. That means no running to me for information, especially information he could easily get himself.

Because we are no longer partners, he cannot replace me at these events....and I don't replace him. My presence does not mean DD12 does not want her dad there. At all. I know this.



How does this work when he is living with Bab's? I can't be his partner and do that give and take when he is with someone else. I want that partnership, BR. If he was living at home right now and there was no Bab's. Probably what we would have done was have WH go to DD12's game and I would go with DD13. We were partners then, and DDs understood that sometimes their activities conflicted and they had to compromise.



This is where I am confused. By providing information, I feel like I am mothering WH, thereby managing his R with his DDs. If he gets the information himself, then he is making an effort in the relationship.

He is off work all this week, I don't see any logical reason he could not have found this information himself. I didn't withhold it, I told DD13 when I thought they would be out. I didn't know for certain, I had to go to the college myself at lunchtime to see if it was posted.



I'll have to look it back over. I'm frustrated that he makes a minimal effort and DDs and I are supposed to get down and bow in front of him.



I don't see this, BR. He attended those he chose to attend, he didn't miss them because I withheld information, he didn't go because he chose not to make the effort to find out when they were. At the time I spoke to DD13, I truly didn't know when the games were.



No, he doesn't and I don't expect him to. I'm trying to leave all of his responsibilities for that squarely in his lap. Can you tell me where you see when I haven't done this?



I am not a victim. Right now, I am basically a single mother. I am proud of myself when I am able to manage things so I am able to attend BOTH events for DDs. No matter what WH does, I am glad I was able to do them both.

Maybe I'm trying to lead by example. WH ended up doing both events, too. He didn't think it was possible and it was. Therefore, he should be proud he did both also.

In Plan B, BR, how do I show him that he is needed? How do I let him help without encouraging him that he can have Bab's and us, too?

Really, I'd like help with this.

In those moments, I really thought he was asking to help and wanting to help. My instinct was to let him help. But what would that do to Plan B.

I'm really confused with this.

What do you think I should have done?



I know this, BR. Where didn't I let him do it his way?

Is there anyway to fix these latest convos? Should I? Help please....

Thank you for your thoughts.

Fox

So what now? I'm on my way to another basketball game. Do I apologize for not letting him help yesterday or continue to do my things my way and leaving him to do his things his way?

When we transfer DD13 at the game, I will thank him for that and tell him I appreciate it.

He'll probably ask when the games are tomorrow. They are finals based on all the games this week. I won't know yet as they won't be posted until tomorrow morning. I'll drop by the college on my way to work (have to take DD12 her clean clothes anyway). I'll just tell him that, I guess.

Fox

Wow. This is great stuff. I'm really interested in how this goes.

Quick post to remind myself what I want to talk to you all about tomorrow.

• There goes our little cheetah - reference to a joke about the two of us as a couple
• Running styles comment
• Running through the woods comment
• he offered to get final game schedule and let me know to save me time
• Talked about WH practicing b-ball with DD12 and how much it was helping her. I think I DJ'd here but recovered later.
• He asked about my plans for June 29.....a little sticky here....it's my weekend and I have something scheduled and he wants to take DDs somewhere.
• I thanked him for letting me take DD13 from the game, making it MUCH easier for me
• Asked him to meet me at college to pick up DD13 as I had to be there to drop off clothes for DD12.
• Apologized for being late this morning...we had tried to call him
• WH talking over DDs to get my attention
• Joke about me being wrong and DD13 being right

Don't have time to detail everything out. Just wanted to make a list so I remembered some of the important parts.

I'm not sure quite how all this will fit with Plan B, but I'm wondering if his R with Bab's is troubled, maybe he needs to remember that Fox can be a good partner. He hasn't had an opportunity to see that. Not sure how to work this right now....

I'll post more in depth tomorrow.

Fox

Fox - you're not in Plan B - no where close. So Plan A if you like. Therein lies your confusion - what to do when you "encounter" him would not be a Plan B question.

Have you considered starting from scratch? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I think leaving the past in the past, for now, is better. Focusing on the now is much better. The hard question, Fox, is after this last year, do you have love left for your husband.

This is definitely a place for the veterans to come in, to guide you. I went a year without using MB, no D in sight, but the same timeline. If you chose to Plan A again, it would be starting over, really working very hard on yourself. It is difficult, but the payback is feeling more comfortable in your own skin, more confidant, more loving.

IF you decide to Plan A, it would be a good time to start sharing schedules with WH and letting him help. When and if the WH shows up, you will learn how to deal with it, instead of reacting.

I feel for you, girl, I really do.

2 much interaction with the WS.

If he is living with the OW, he is a WS. He is being nice to the children? He should. However, he shouldn't be rewarded with interaction with you.

You need to shore up and decide if you s/b in plan B or A. This inbetween stance is confusing his moves. He will play you to the hilt and it will only hurt you and the children in the end.

Try this:

Rule 1: Anything about the game or children events..... he gets it via e-mail, txt msg or voicemail. No direct talk.

Rule 2: Do not succumb to playing the victim. You can RB but there is a difference. RB let's you give the WS back their guilt. Playing the victim, encourages the WS to hurt you more.

take care,
L.

I have considered going back to Plan A. But I don't think that is the answer right now. I think he would take full advantage of it. I think Plan A right now would show him that I will be his friend after this and that is just not the case.

I did a pretty good Plan A. I found MB immediately after the ILYBNILWY speech and hit it full force. I read HNHN (skipping the infidelity part, because I didn't think it applied - had to reread later). I found out about the A 6 weeks later and it compromised some of my Plan A just because of the incredible emotions that hit then. he moved out soon after.

I did not go out of Plan A into Plan B with a bang....many things happened and I moved to Plan B more to save myself than the M.

Orchid, he is being good to DDs. I'm trying not to reward him with interaction with me, that's why I'm doing the ducking and dodging and only giving him the bare minimum of information.

But then I'm told here that I am withholding information that I should be giving him, that he is looking to help and I am not allowing it.

I'm confused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Re: Rule 1: Email is not an option right now because he is off for the week and only has email at work, he doesn't have text, and he answers when I call his cell phone so I can't leave a vm. Suggestions?

The only reason there has been interaction this week is because of DD12 camp. WH called the other day, I gave him the appropriate information, then sent an email asking him to only contact me by email unless 1: Bab's was out of his life forever or 2: emergency regarding DDs.

I'm doing my best to back him off when he breaches Plan B and contacts me.

What are everyone's thoughts on a quasi-Plan A/B? Be in Plan B except at DDs events....then a good Plan A. Interact with him....comments about DDs, joke, smile, laugh, admire...etc. Meet some needs ONLY when at these activities. So he sees us as a FAMILY. And that Fox is an option, she does not hate him and may be able to forgive him.

I think he believes that I hate him and that I could never forgive him for what he has done. He may be waffling (Bab's true colors are REALLY showing) How do I show him that I don't hate him and that forgiveness is an option without risking being taken advantage of?

He made some special efforts today.....one part of me says it is crumbs and not to read anything into it, but another wants to acknowledge that he DID make an effort and take it as a baby step.

Thoughts?

I've also read on diffent threads that it isn't about what I do or don't do, it's about what Bab's does. She/They have to destroy their own relationship. So how much do I really need to analyze this?

And SL: Yes, there is still love left. Not for WH, the WH DOES disgust me and I don't love or respect HIM. But H was a good man once and I loved him deeply. All of that is not yet gone.

I really see Recovery as a possibility. I'm willing. The questions is, will he ever be?

In the meantime, I have to face reality and deal with what comes. It is more likely than not that the D will happen.

I don't know. I've got about 4 weeks left to do my part. I'm not sure it will make a difference to him.

Thanks for all the input.

I'm off to the final basketball game.

Fox

p.s. DD13 starts volleyball camp next week so we're not done with these crazy weeks yet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I wish I knew what to tell you wild... I am confused too about the advice you are getting, it seems conflicting. You should supply him informations yet you shouldn't act like his mother... ? I also thought in plan B you shouldn't go out of your way to help him with things, like finding out when DD's BBall game is for him. He wants you to do thing a WIFE does, yet he's living with another woman! I think maybe you are getting accused of some things here that aren't quite accurate... I think you know which ones. Also, since I've been reading your thread for so long, I know you kept to plan B much better before all of this camp stuff came up. I imagine it is much much harder to plan B someone when you have kids involved in activities.

I do find it interesting that at this BBall camp he's been trying to sit near you and look you in the eye and get your attention. Maybe he is waffling... but, I'm scared if you put yourself out there he'll stomp on you again. You've come REALLY far in distancing yourself from his hurtful behaviour.

I hope the pros here have some good tips for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BR and sdguy: Can you explain the difference between confidence and self-rightousness to me?

Where I feel I'm conveying confidence and a good sense of self, you've come back with comments about it being self-rightous.

Can you help me understand this?

Final game went wall---DD12's team won. She made an excellent shot! And you know the glances that parents have between each other that say "did ya see that? Isn't our daughter great?" We had MANY of those. And they were just instinctual. I didn't mean to, actually tried not to. But when she'd get the ball and go up for it and make it and she was so thrilled, we were thrilled for her and so proud. And you SHARE that as a couple.

As we were leaving, we were walking down the hall, all 4 of us. Things shifted and WH and I ended up next to each other. No big deal...just different. He used to make sure that there was NO WAY he would have to walk by me. And I'm thinking....this is how it should be. How do I achieve this again? And how does WH not see that this is how it was meant to be? Bab's will never be a part of this. One day she may BE there, but not as a part of them as I am.

Well, I'm off to the awards ceremony. I'll try to check in later and provide more details.

Fox

Here are my thoughts. You know that I am a complete amateur at this, so take them for what they are worth.

Based on my conversations with Jennifer, I think that the biggest risk is whether you can have any interaction with him and hold yourself together. I.e., you won't be protecting yourself from the hurt that WS's spew. And you might lose your cool and LB him or FU him. Or just decide that he's too pathetic to waste time on (because you will be dealing with WH, not H).

Some people will counter that giving him a Fox Fix will ease his pain and let him cake-eat and set back your plan B, and I can appreciate that argument. But your line about him believing that you hate him and could never forgive him--that fits my situation 100%, and I wonder how that plays into all of this. I think about what Ark's wonderful posts, but how can you be the lighthouse if you never let the WS see you? The WS needs to hit bottom, but can you occasionally throw them a line and see if they will take it?

I don't know the answers. Hopefully someone with more experience will come along and help us with this stuff. A call to the Harleys is probably the best idea. Maybe the radio show?

(((Fox)))

Fox,
I just wanted you to know that I'm thinking about you and your girls and only wishing the best for your family.

I got confused just reading the different things you were told about plan B. So I can only imagine how hard this has been for you.

Do you think that maybe he is afraid that he has lost you already and he is just stuck with the thing?
I know that time is running out before your court date.

Have you thought about just coming right out and asking him if this is truly what he wants?

"Have you thought about just coming right out and asking him if this is truly what he wants?"

Interesting question HNC...