My lawyer says I cannot dictate what times WH can and cannot contact DDs. (within reason - no late nights)

Part of my hesitation in having you be in intermediary, sl, is the added frustration to you. You have enough going on in your life that I don't feel I should add my problems to it. I do deeply appreciate it, though, and may talk to you about it in the future.

I'm really getting upset about the days I agreed to WH having DDs. How did I not catch that it would end up being close to 50/50?! Just minutes ago, I left another message for my lawyer. I'm thinking of taking Thursdays back or only agreeing that he have them until 5 on Thursday when I get off work. I just can't believe I let that happen! Now I have to figure a way out of it!

Babs, GAWD I love that! Priceless!

I agree that you can not facilitate a R between father and child, no siree bob, you cannot, but you CAN protect the girls wellbeing, and that is what I'm advocating. They are still young enough to NOT make the decisions about when to call and all that jazz. It is up to their parents, and only one of you is concerned for THEM.

I just get a little hot on this subject, I guess. I would rather throw those cell phones in the toilet (they won't replace them due to water damage under most contracts, WOOPSIE--smiling innocently and batting my eyelashes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and dictate calling times, than to allow any more responsiblity for the R to fall on the CHILDREN.

Sorry, getting a little hot again...

BTW, my WH, after leaving for the SECOND time last month, said that he told DS that he could call him just any old time he wanted to. Well, at first DS wanted to call a lot, and WH didn't answer the phone, so I GOT PISSED, and said NO MORE. I laid it down on the line, I said DS CAN call you anytime and you should do your best to be available, BUT you are responsible for communicating on the regular with him, not the other way around, so you can call him at a good time for you everyday. If you forget, it's not on him, it's on YOU...He calls every night at 8PM.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />This made me laugh. SL's right, they won't replace a phone that's been thrown in the toliet. I did it. I know.

Seriously, I agree with SL that phone calls should be instigated by WH at a certain time each day if he REALLY wants to talk and not just play mind/control games with your kiddos AND you.

Think Alek Baldwin, and how his feeling (poor baby) of alienation because his daughter didn't answer her cell phone FORCED him to call her a PIG...

He should call on the land line at a time that you KNOW DD's are finished with everything for the night and are usually home, like curfew time or right before bed, etc.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, SL. I just don't have any control over it. DDs will view it as blocking his access to them and so will a judge. I cannot risk that. My lawyer says WH should be able to call them whenever he wants, just as I should be able to call them when they are with him.

If I took the cell phones, DDs would be upset with ME. They would view it as a punishment to them.

I can't believe my lawyer hasn't called me back about this stuff. This is my LIFE!

I can't believe you attorney hasn't called you either!! Come on now...

WH is acting like a total putz. He is OBSESSED with making sure he's all up in DD's faces. I wouldn't put it past him to try to get as much visitation as possible in court(like 50%) to lower what he has to pay in CS. I'd bet his lawyer told him to be super involved in the girls lives to attempt this. (speculation on my part, but I see red flags all over)

Nevermind the fact that wasn't the way he was before, so your DD's are scratching their heads over this alien being that is occupying their fathers shell.

Well, this is what I did, I didn't ask my lawyer. I believe that, as parents, we should have access to our children, sure, but chastising them for not being available, NO WAY.

If you guys have to go lawyer to lawyer about every little detail of the girls existence, then you should both sit down and decide together when to call, when to come by.

About your DD's, you are their mother, not their buddy. Sometimes, what is in their best interest is not AGREEABLE for them to digest, but it IS what is best. I was MOSTLY kdding about the cell phones, my angle on that was that YOU then go apply for your own family plan. You can then SEE the phone bill. This is good more than in relation to WH, but in relation to who they are talking to.

Now, all that being said, I know that you do not want to damage your case in court. I do not see how a judge would find fault with you trying to facilitate daughters and WH talking EVERY DAY by setting a schedule, so that WH and DD's KNOW when they are available. What's so wrong with that? Your girls are very busy, and as they get older, they will become even more busy. They will go out with their friends more often, etc. Also, if I remember correctly, I didn't want to HANG with my parents much when I was a teenager. It was totally gauche. Totally...

What I'm saying is, to make it more palatable to your WH, tell him that the girls' schedules are always so hectic, so you would like to set up a time, convenient to him, that the girls are DEFINITELY available to talk daily, so he will not have to GUESS when they are. Also, state when their cell phones are turned off, and turned back on again, give the school schedule, practice schedule, whatever.

Your DD13 is already showing that she is or has lost faith in her dad. She does not have to talk to him, and will, more and more NOT.

Fox, even with lawyers and judges and all the people in the world telling you what you CAN'T do, you are their mother, and need to show that your concern is for them. You will not be jailed for this. Play CJ's game, What's the worst that could happen? and see what the outcome COULD be. No judge is going to fault you for trying to make it EASIER for WH to contact his kids, because he knows when they are DEFINITELY available, he can't complain...


Oh, and cell phones ARE a privilege, not a given, especially at their age. Teenagers will buck control...

I'm with SL on this one--put the onus of communication with DDs back on WH. Don't take the phones away, just remind him that they are two-way. A simple email like

"The girls are uncomfortable with your expectation that they call you daily. They have their phones with them--how about if you call them?"

It's not dark Plan B, but this seems like a worthwhile message to send.

Babs. I love it.

ABSOLUTELY agree with this.



He will not sit down with me. I've tried this and he says he will call HIS daughters whenever he wants to. I'm trying to compose an email telling him what time he can call DDs and to stop making DDs feel guilty.


DDs have done nothing wrong as far as the cell phones are concerned and it would be punishing them to take them away. I do not have the resources to get them cell phones on a family plan. As it is, I had to go on my mother's plan when WH shut my old one off. I PI$$es me off that I can't see DDs cell phone bills. Supposedly, WH is keeping track of them. And calling any "suspicious" numbers and asking why they are talking to DDs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure DDs love that! I'm going to get my lawyer to get copies of those, so we can verify how much and when WH is calling DDs.



The worst that can happen? A judge gives DDs to WH because he believes I kept them from WH. I can't see what COULD happen because I'm so afraid of the worst.

Oh, he'll complain. Because I CONTROLLED when he had access.



But DDs have not abused the privilege. Although DD12 sees it as a given because dad gave it to her, I have no say. I have repeatedly disabused her of that idea by taking it away when she gets in trouble. I, too, see it as a punishment towards them when they have not abused it. WH has.

Even in the worst case, the judge will not TAKE your kids away, as long as you are helping to provide a structure for your WH to contact the kids. Especially if you keep track of when he calls and what is said to YOU regarding the girls NOT speaking to him. WRITE it all down.

I have emailed WH that he can see his son as much as he chooses, and call when he wants, but I feel that structuring these things is what is best for OUR SON. I think as long as you slant any correspondence with your WH in this way, he can't slander you in court about it, because you are trying to HELP him, not hinder him.

Talked to my lawyer just a couple of minutes ago. This is so frustrating!

CS: Courts are so busy that we wouldn't get a court date for that until after our final date so it would be moot point. I think we should set the date anyway, then if the final date is canceled, we still have the child support hearing. If court is not canceled, we could cancel the child support hearing. My lawyer is checking into all of it.

Ponytail/guilt trip incidents: Not much we can do to stop him. My lawyer will ask me about them at the hearing, though, so I can tell them what happened. He just has to be careful how he words it so it won't be objected to.

WH flex spending account: May be able to use as extra income or maybe be viewed as a benefit to WH. WH employer has a high deductible medical plan so the company gives them $1800 per year in a flex spending account to use towards the deductible. So, if this is used as just a perk for WH, he will get to pay all medical expenses from that and I will have to pay all mine out of pocket. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Counseling: Lawyer thinks I should talk to the school about counseling. I don't have anything against it per se, other than I hate to have DDs have to deal with this stuff at school. It is their one escape where they can just be who they are and not have so much pressure. But according to my lawyer, it would be so much better in court to have it come from a third party.

I don't know, I'll talk to DDs about it. But I know the counselor they are "assigned" to at school is a guy and they don't really like him.

Phone contact: I CAN limit to a certain degree how much WH contacts DDs, but I have to make sure there are certain times he CAN contact them. Now I just have to figure out how to do it with DDs where they know I am not blocking is access but protecting them from his current behavior towards them. But also tell them they can call him anytime during the day that they choose.

SL, thank you, you are so right about this. Do you have any suggestions on how to word it to WH so it looks like I am supporting his contact and not taking it away?

What about: "Would you be willing to set up certain times that you call DDS so that you know they are available and they know when you are trying to reach them? Like 9pm each night. I feel contact should be initiated by you as the parent and not the responsibility of the children. They feel guilty when you ask them why they haven't called. Contact with you should be your responsibility as the parent, not theirs as the child. Even after setting times for you to call, DDs can call you at anytime"

Is this telling him what to do too much?

More later.......

Without telling him what to do...Let's see

[color:"blue"] DD's have recently been expressing some guilt over forgetting to call you, or missing your calls. Under the current circumstances, I would prefer that we take the lead together on this. It is our responsibility to support our children and foster them through this very difficult time. That being said, I would like to suggest a bit of a solution. DD's are available every evening at 9PM. I think it would be wise to set something up around this time so that DD's KNOW when you will be calling, and not have to take the initiative themselves. I believe, as their parents, WE must make the sacrifices and set aside the time to spend with our children, not the other way around, and I hope that you agree.
[/color]

Something along those lines...

[color:"blue"] Therefore, I would like to suggest that you touch base with them every night (if you are available) at around 9PM. Any other time that you would like to call, as long as they are not in school or at practice or XXX, they will still be available, as long as they aren't doing what normal teens and preteens do and are just too busy in their own world to answer.

I want you to know that I am trying to facilitate an ease of communication between all of us, so please consider this for their best interest. I know how frustrating this is, but lets see what we can do to remedy the wrinkles.

Thank you,
Foxy LADY.... [/color]

The right sentiment, but I think it's too many words. I had some suggested revisions, but the 'failure to connect' ate it. I'll try again later.

[color:"green"] You are more than welcome to be angry with me. I don't really care right now about that.

You are a ROLE MODEL to that little boy. EVERYTHING that you do and say is everything to that kid. The current situation that you have chosen is not conducive to raising a happy, healthy child. Since you have decided to leave him, and I am left with the bulk of his care, and bear witness to how this situation has affection him, I will not expose him to further pain. If you are so concerned about your time with him, maybe you can pick him up from daycare MORE often, spending time with him on a more regular basis. He would benefit from being considered FIRST in your life. However, when you only see him every other weekend, as his parent, I have to consider what you may not be telling me. Again, you are more than welcome to spend as much time with him as you want, I would never get between you two.

We are not divorced and you are living with another woman. I don't know if I like the message this is sending to our son. PUT HIM FIRST, EVEN ABOVE YOU! You are more than welcome to spend time with him, heck you could spend even more if you want, BUT, I am his mother, and I will protect him against ANYTHING and ANYBODY that I don't trust has his best interest at heart. ******, you could rent a hotel room, ask a friend that Dylan knows if you could spend the night with them, ask his pop-pop.
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Fox, this is a snippet of what I sent to WH when he was suggesting having DS for overnights at OW's house. You can see how concerned I was about a lawyer at the time, but I made it clear that I put DS first and I would do what I could to ensure that DS was available for daddy any time he wanted to see him...

i wouldn't say I took the right approach, but I was against the ropes...

And if he doesn't agree? I expect his comment to be "I will call MY girls whenever I want to and YOU won't tell me when I can call"

Your answer could be that you cannot guarantee that DD's will answer the phone or be available any other time, but if that is his wish, you will support it as best you can, not force it.

Fox, I think if you had an intermediary that your WH did not know, he may watch his P's a Q's a bit more,

AND the added benefit of him stewwing over not being able to scream at you and make demands...just a thought.

Can't I just say "WH, you are a POS for treating your DDs this way. Back off or I'll back you off."

Ummm, yeah, that might not be good. But it felt good to say (type) it.

Well, you certainly could say that...hmmm, let's all think now, what kind of a reaction would that get...

I would stick with something a bit more, hmmm, let's say, palatable...

Kids that age forget to do things A LOT. We have to remind our DD daily to feed the dogs. It is one of her few "set chores" and she still forgets all the time. Teens are focused on what they are interested in and it's not talking to dad on the phone all the time. It's not their fault he moved out and has limited his daily access to them. Their social lives shouldn't have to suffer.