I agree that a lot of these observations we are making are water under the bridge at this point. I know that meddlesome mom's can cause grief in a marriage. I had to pick my jaw up off my chest when you said he'd go over there a lot when you were pregnant and have dinner with them, w/o you! That is so night right, I can't believe they didn't say anything to him about that? They must be total conflict avoiders.

I am so lucky, my MIL is awesome! She does a good balance of being there for us but not being overly meddlesome. He told me when I married you I didn't just give my mom a DIL, I gave her a friend. We are very close. My H has joked with me before that he thinks if we ever split they'll dis-own him and keep me! That is sweet of him to say, but I know at the end of the day blood is thicker than water. My FIL is also great, he does a good job of keeping my H in check. My H thinks his dad walks on water, and listens to him when no one else can get thru to him.

I am truly blessed in that department. I guess that's why I took note to that part of your post... Freaked me out!

How great for you that you were blessed with a great MIL. My MIL always treated me well, I don't have any complaints on how she treated me until the day I attempted to talk to her about DDs after WH moved out.

But she did always seem to be in between us. After his father died, his mother gave WH a ring (I think it was his fathers, but not his fathers wedding ring). WH wore that ring next to his wedding ring. To me, it was always a symbol of his relationship with his mother. Which was given the same importance as his wedding ring. Then it became MORE important because he took his wedding ring off, but his mother's ring remains.

H spent ALOT of time at his parents' without me. He never saw a problem with it. We lived out of town, he would stop at his parents' house "to say hi", many times they would feed him, they'd watch some tv (cause he didn't want to eat and run - how rude) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. Eventually he would make it home.

This diminished after a while...I think his dad talked to him about it. I tried to talk to H many times about this, he didn't see a problem, he "was just stopping to say hi"

After his dad passed away, MIL became much involved with us. She was invited to almost EVERYTHING. ALL of DDs events, ALL of our outings. If we went to dinner she was invited. Which initially didn't bother me. But eventually, we needed our own family back. It seemed we could never do anything without her.

My family also welcomed her and tried to help her after FIL passed away. I was told to make sure MIL was invited if we had any extended family outings. When H and I moved to CA, my family still called to check on her and see if she needed anything.

There came a time where her involvement just became too much.

I don't know if this will be an issue or not if Recovery ever happens. I haven't spoken to MIL since last August. WH doesn't go to lunch at her house nearly as often as he used to, MIL has had dinner on rare occasions with WH and Bab's, DDs were barely seeing her when they were with WH, but now see her on Mondays and Thursdays so she can keep them for WH for his visitation until he is off work.

The old dynamic with MIL may never be the same just because of the circumstances.

Anywho, here's the most recent happenings:

I found out DD13's v-ball games and emailed him:



He said thanks and he'd see DD12 and I there.

DD12 and I decided to go to Starbucks to grab something to drink before we went to the game. A while before we left, I emailed WH to see if he wanted anything. He didn't respond at the time. I was ok with that.

DD12 and I got to the game first, when WH got there, he came over and sat on the other side of DD12....and talked to me over her head. Just questions about the game, schedule for that evening to get DD13 where she needed to be, a little about his work, etc.

He had to leave early because he was interviewing someone at work. There was a break in the game and he headed over to DD13 to let her know, she didn't notice and her team headed the opposite direction. Instead of having to chase her down, he looked back at me and "signed" a request that I let DD13 know that he had to go and let her know why. I nodded in agreement.

After the game, DD13 came over and said "where'd Dad go?" I explained and all was good.

We do all the crazy running to get to the barrel race. I had asked WH earlier to stop and get DDs drinks because I didn't think I'd have time. He ended up not having time, either. He dropped DD13 off so she'd have a few minutes to warm up, took DD12 with him and went and got some drinks. For ALL of us.

This may sound silly that I'm even considering the fact that he brought me a drink as a good sign. But I think it is. He's been so bound and determined that he's broke and it is all my fault and would have not even considered doing something nice for me.

It was over 100 degrees....I really appreciated the thought and thanked him for it later.

We talked a little bit about the schedule for today. Today is the final day of v-ball camp so there are more games and an awards ceremony.

When I dropped DD13 off at v-ball camp, I talked to the coach and go the necessary information. Then I dropped of DD12 and MIL to spend time with her cousins today.

I got to work and there was an email from WH telling me he's sorry he didn't get my email from yesterday until this morning, but thanks for the offer of Starbucks yesterday.

I emailed back thanking him for the drink yesterday and gave him the game schedule for today. I also offered to pick DD12 up from MIL and take her to the game for him (MIL's house is closer to my office than his).

He emailed me back, thanking me for the schedule and said he could pick up DD12 and "we'll see ya at 3:30".

He seems fairly receptive right now. He's looking at and speaking directly to me, shares glances when DDs do something good during their games, gentle teasing, appreciation for kind acts, etc.

This is his weekend with DDs. I'm considering calling him late Friday evening (apx 10) and asking him to meet with me on Tuesday evening to talk. (Tuesday because then it will not interfere with HIS time with DDs.) I'm hoping to present it to him as a talk about just where we are in general and how best to deal with each other in regards to DDs. Depending on how it goes, I'd like also to discuss US. Tell him flat out where I am right now and what I'd like. Share my fears of both continuing towards D and my fears of Recovery. Apoligize for my part in getting our M to where it was possible that an A could happen. Apologize deeply that I did not put him first and get into detail about this. I'll have to be careful not to take ALL the blame, but I'd like him to see that I CAN be wrong, admit I am so, and apologize for it. And....be willng to change it.

My hope in this talk is to explain why I sent the PBL, what I was hoping to do with it. Explain that part of the goal was to stop the head butting that we were doing to each other. Take some of the blame for that head butting myself.

I'll have to also find a way to tell him I will STILL not be his friend or part of his life if we D. I will engage in effective co-parenting and that is it.

Thoughts, anyone?

Fox

I like your plan. About the 'taking all of the blame'. Don't think of it this way; just state that you ARE (you are still married) 50% of this marriage, and it did not get to the state it was without you not putting in YOUR effort. It's not about blame; it's about OWNING it. So don't use the word blame.

Definitely let him that you will have to safeguard yourself if a D goes through, and you will not want to be friends. You will co-parent effectively, but not be friends, not share stories or lives. Be sure he knows that this is not what you want. Be clear that your M is in the forefront of your mind. Don't tell him this stuff, hoping for some epiphany from him, either, just state it, like it's what you would like to do; YOU.

My opinion, meet in a fairly lively setting, keep the mood light. Tell him about things you think he's handled well. Tell him what you notice about him. Leave the anger behind completely. THere is a time and place for letting go of anger; this will not be it. If he starts to flinch and reach for the guns, do not get pulled into an offensive. Just tell him that you respect his thoughts, but think that this is not the time to discuss such matters, and RESPECTFULLY decline to speak about that now, but will be willing to discuss those items under SAFER circumstances, where there are rules of engagement.

Whew, Fox, you may still be very much in it. I'm listening. I hope there is something in what I have posted that will be of help.

This is just advice, and others may not like what I've posted, so take what you like, discard the rest.

I think your plan sounds good to me.

Thanks for explaining about your MIL. I can see how you found her presence overbearing over time. Especially the whole ring thing... that's almost creepy!! lol

Good point, SL.



Even if I'm not absolutely positive that this IS what I want? I still have a lot of reservations about whether I or not I do want to reconcile. The only reason I could give for NOT wanting it is fear. Fear that we would "try" and would still D. I can't imagine having to go through this again. Or putting my daughters through it.

Also the fear that he would do it "better" next time. Be MORE secretive and prepare more before he actually walked out. Know what I mean?


This is key. Made me consider what I DO expect out of this. I have to go in expecting nothing FROM him. My goal with this is to lay my truths down. Mainly so that I would know I said my truths. Offer him the knowledge of how I actually feel and what I think so that he can make his decisions based on reality and not what he perceives or guesses that I am feeling or thinking.

If he wants to share his that would be great, but not expected.



The mood doesn't stay light when we get in these discussions. If he wants to go deeper and REALLY have a discussion about this, how can we do so in a lively setting?

We could meet somewhere lively and "safe" and go somewhere else if we wanted to take it further. Sometimes when you break the rythm of the conversatin, though, it's hard to get back to it.

In December and January when we were talking, we went to a couple of different restaurants. Both of us ended up cyring off and on. At one place, we sat there for 4 HOURS. I can't believe they didn't kick us out. Both of us were too wound up to eat, so we jut had a drink. And talked and cried....and talked and cried some more. I attempted to leave 3 or 4 times and he'd pull me back in. That was our last deep talk together. When we were leaving, he told me it was SO hard to watch me leave. That tore me up. He didn't HAVE to watch me leave, he could have COME HOME. But...he watched me leave and went "home" to Bab's.

I think he will be less willing to really talk if we are in too public of a place. I'm not expecting he will be willing to do this, but I'd like the opportunity to be there if he wants to.



BIG one to remember.

I'll have to constantly keep in check the phrase "but you CHOSE this". I tend to think most of the time, "YOUchose it, now YOU deal with the consequences"

I'd like somehow to explain to him why it looked like I was controlling his visitation with DDs. It wasn't against him, it WAS against Bab's and how harmful I felt that was. It wasn't about blocking his time with them, it was more about not letting them be TAKEN from me. DDs and I did not chose this, but are taken away from each other twice a week and every other weekend.

He'll be defensive about the part regarding Bab's being harmful because he doesn't see it that way. Not sure how to phrase this so it is not an attack on her personally, because it really isn't.

The discussion may never get that deep. But, as usual, I'd like to be prepared if it does.

Thanks for your thoughts, SL. I have alot of questions for you that I'm hoping will help me work through my fear of Recovery.

Although I'm hoping that Recovery could still be an option, I'm not certain I'd take it if he offered.

If he stood before me today, took my hands in his, looked deeply in my eyes and said (best case scenario), "Fox, I love you, I want our M, I'll do whatever it takes for as long as it takes for our family to be happy and for YOU to be happy. Will you do this with me?", what would I do?

Would I melt?

Would I look into his eyes and say "Yes, I, too, will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes for our family to be happy and for YOU to be happy." - and then REALLY work diligently for a healthy recovery?

Or would I run?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I don't know.

Fox

Wild:

Great Plan A you got going there the past two days.

Talk to your H. But don't say a thing about Plan B or not being his friend if you D.

Because he has a Plan B letter from you and look what that has devolved into.

So, I will repost a part:

"This is his weekend with DDs. I'm considering calling him late Friday evening (apx 10)"

Don't call him at 10pm. He is at his GF's, with your CHILDREN. Call him on his cellphone, at 4:45, or 5:30 when he has the girls. You can call at 10:00 PM and when he blows you off becasue of what you are asking to do, and when you are asking him, It can be all his fault.

"and asking him to meet with me on Tuesday evening to talk. (Tuesday because then it will not interfere with HIS time with DDs.) I'm hoping to present it to him as a talk about just where we are in general and how best to deal with each other in regards to DDs. Depending on how it goes, I'd like also to discuss US. Tell him flat out where I am right now and what I'd like. Share my fears of both continuing towards D and my fears of Recovery. Apoligize for my part in getting our M to where it was possible that an A could happen."

This is all good. Go light on the reason that A's happen. He doesn't know why, but it was your fault anyway.

"Apologize deeply that I did not put him first and get into detail about this."

Good as well. But just apologize, He might not hear a word of it after that, or will just replay it for his Attorney.

"I'll have to be careful not to take ALL the blame,"

To the WS, IT's ALWAYS your Fault. So, ALL is on you anyway.

"but I'd like him to see that I CAN be wrong, admit I am so, and apologize for it. And....be willing to change it."

THIS IS THE ONLY THING HE REALLY NEEDS TO TAKE AWAY FROM ANY CONVERSATION HE HAS WITH YOU.
Coupled with the fact that you are FUN, HAPPY and Getting Along in life and he is missing SO MUCH by not being involved with YOU.

DITCH THIS:

My hope in this talk is to explain why I sent the PBL, what I was hoping to do with it. Explain that part of the goal was to stop the head butting that we were doing to each other. Take some of the blame for that head butting myself.

HE is WS, you might as well start speaking KING LEAR to him. So What.

Thank you for the kind words about finding HNHN 15 years ago. If only I had read it.

Fox: You have got to figure out where you really want to be with this.

BR was given you EXCELLENT advice on how to get there. How you have undermined your OWN efforts.

Please try to understand what she is trying to tell you.

Read LilSis Plan B thread. How much interaction did she have with WS during her Plan B? And then compare it to yours.

And we POUNDED LilSis every time she stepped out of Plan B.

LG

Could be a moot point, he may just not want to talk to me at all.

Guess we'll see. I'll offer.

Why does just the thought of calling him make my stomache flip and churn? He's my HUSBAND, I can call him if I want to! Must be the fear.....of rejection.

AHA....



Still? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

What if he WANTS to get into it? The last times we talked in Dec and Jan, HE was taking the conversation much deeper than I was prepared to go. Which is why it took so much out of me.



I'm not sure how to get this done without getting into the "other" stuff.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I really don't know. Which is probably why I undermine my own efforts.

If this is who he really is....I DO NOT want him.

If we would both commit to making our M thrive and not just "try"..... I DO want that.

Thank you, LG, for posting. It is VERY helpful.

Fox

You still love him, don't you Fox? Come on, be for real with yourself, pride aside. Pride will serve to keep you two apart right now. When you are back together, you can have pride in a good solid, well worked upon M.

Now, if you love him, why not just let your self believe that Recovery is still an option, for YOU. If you are not ready to go the whole nine, don't have this conversation with WH. What purpose does it serve, then? You need to stick with Plan A. It is a plan, and better than the alternative of not going into this with a clear head.

You must accept that you have absolutely not one iota of control over WH, at all, over whether he will come home. He won't right away; face those fears, Fox. Fears will keep you rooted where you are, digging those heels in.

So, think about WHY you would be doing this; if it is not for recovery, why bother having the conversation at all? He is wayward and will babble and will say things that you don't want to hear in ways that you don't want to hear them. Be prepared.

About where the have the conversation. Hmmm, if you can go somewhere where there are park benches, or a lake, or someplace to walk and talk. Things can get very intimate on a walk, and if there are park benches, one of you has th option to ask to sit down and continue. No music, no noisiness to get in the way. Work on NOT CRYING as best you can, but cry when you have to.

Fox, you are afraid, for very good reason, but you need to be clear with yourself about why you would be doing this. This cannot be a fact finding mission if you want recovery.

Do not talk about Bab's at all, and if the conversation goes that way, respectfully decline to discuss that at this time; it's too inflamatory. Explaining the power struggle with the children may only incite anger in him. If it comes up, just state that you were doing the best you could in a very difficult situation, you were protecting in the only way you have learned. Don't go too deeply into this one; it is also inflamatory, because it points to his parenting skill set, and you believing that he doesn't care for his children enough. He will get there on his own, in recovery. He will know what he did wrong, no need to help him get there.

Lordy, keep the communication coming, Fox. Let's get you as prepared as you can be for this initial step. Remember, question yourself, why am I doing this?

Yes, but SHOULD I?



It WOULD BE for recovery purposes.

I think I'm trying to ride my own fence with this. Wanting to do what it takes to get to recovery....but not doing too much in case that doesn't happen so I don't get crushed again.

I don't know how those of you who have had false recoveries ever take that chance again.



I know this, SL. I really do. I just don't know how long I can (or should) keep this up.



What do you mean by a fact finding mission?



Honestly, SL, I don't know what is not inflamatory. As soon a I say "I do not want this" - he's inflamed because he believes he does want it.

Although when I told him that in December....he just sat there quietly and nodded his head.



Because I believe with all my heart that Recovery is POSSIBLE. My question: is it probable? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, SL.

This statment alone is quite telling, Fox. You are saying that what you perceive will happen, and what actually happens don't match. Your fear didn't occur, not in December. So, what makes you still believe that this will happen, when it hasn't? What is keeping you in a fighting stance, ready to fend off what hasn't happened or MAY NOT happen?

Honestly, what kept things alive for me, even after false recoveries, was that I did want my marriage, my husband back, and if I could have it, I was going to try. Yup, false recoveries hurt, but you aren't even at the stage where recovery has been mentioned BY HIM. He has to come home of his own volition. You have to supply the safe place to fall; and he will fall. It is rough. All stages of this process are rough. All of them cause pain and hurt, BUT, in real recovery, there is a place for that hurt to go, and you learn constructive ways to avoid hurting, and learn about "The Rule of Care".

I know that you are confused.


Oh, I know, PWC was very adamant about what I quoted above, too, but I learned to just speak my piece, about what I would like. PWC said "This is what I want". Was it? At the time, maybe, but eventually, NOPE. You are AT EVENTUALLY, so maybe now is a good time to throw that hat back in the ring, Fox. However, you have to be willing to focus on yourself, be so scrutinous about your behavior. You are always protecting yourself (which I did too, you are not alone), and that can be a huge wall or a big roadblock to someone who needs to feel that you are a place of safety (like your WH will).

You goal, if you so choose to accept it, is to stop worrying about what HE WANTS. Don't detach. Disentangle from him, yes, by all means, but don't detach. It's not always what he says, it's what he does. If you open the door to let him DO more again, you may find your Husband there, peeking in. I'm not saying to accept crumbs. Certainly, forming boundaries is essential, but, to start Plan A, you are just stating what you would like to happen.

Unfortunately, there is no safe way to start this process. Your neck is on the line, and I know it.

STOP ASSUMING. Geez, I sound like Mimi (which is good), but this is something I worked very hard on, in Plan B, to stop assuming any outcome, any action, any reaction. State what I need to and stop assuming. You can PREPARE for what may happen, but don't assume the negative or that nothing will be gained, or that he will be horrible. Stop assuming you know what is going on inside your husband. You don't KNOW for sure.

About fact finding, I may have stated that improperly. I mean you shouldn't go to this meeting to find out solely where he is in all of this, you may want to just go to state where you are, and what you would like. I hope I'm making sense. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Corny analogy coming:

It's like that story about you both being in a lifeboat, both sitting there with your arms crossed, ignoring the oars. One of you has to pick up an oar and start rowing. Stating where YOU are (without any expectation of him doing the same) is your way of picking up one of the oars. Even if he doesn't respond right away, he'll know that you've chosen to row.

It didn't happen in December but has happened often. It just depends on his mood of the moment. If he's receptive, he'll listen. If he's already on the prod about something else and I say I don't want this, he throws in the "well, I'm going to love her forever so you might as well just get over it"

So it DID happen but you're right, it MIGHT NOT this time.

What is keeping me in a fighting stance? Fear of that deep hurt that only he can bring to me, that I will be rejected AGAIN. And, yes, the wall of protection is up, I admit to that.



This is a big one for me, too. Now, how EXACTLY, do I do that?



My thought when I call is just to say "I have some things I want to share with you and some others that I would like your opinion on. Are you willing to go somewhere and talk with me?"

One of the things I am going to ask his opinion on is what to do with DD12 and some of her behavior issues. She's going to drive me to the loony bin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

We'll see where it goes from there.

Fox

You are making sense, I get it.

Thanks, princessmeggy. So does that mean I'll be going in circles until he picks up his oar? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Corny or not, that analogy fits. Thanks

Fox:

I asked:

"You have got to figure out where you really want to be with this."

And you answered:

"I really don't know. Which is probably why I undermine my own efforts."

Undermining your own efforts is what is happening.

Your Plan B is in a shambles, and looks like the perfect co-parenting and best friends relationship to WH.

So slide into a Plan A that ROCKS his world.

A real no holds barred Plan A that really gets back into WH head.

HE has been with this OP for over a year. She has certainly started to grow thin with your WH in some areas, and the LB are coming.

Present yourself as a more viable alternative.

WH certainly is aware of his financial liabilities since this thing started going south.

You can tie those strings together for him.

Be the better alternative.

Then step off into a REAL PLAN B. No letter required at this point. BUT A DARK PLAN B. 6-8 weeks from now.

Or, to make it simpler, just forget about plan A/B and let the Plan D play out, and work with WH as best as you can....

That's giving up. But it brings clarity and consistentcy to your life.

And who wouldn't want that.

But Plan A, and then a DARK Plan B will bring you clarity and consistentcy as well. A different type, and one that may include your WH, with recovery going on.

But where you are right now is WONDERFUL for your WH.

No Pain and All Gain for him.

LG

Just talked to my attorney. As you may remember, the final hearing had been scheduled for August 14, DD12's birthday. I had called to ask him to change it.

He is going to get it changed, supposed to let me know as soon as he as a new date. My guess now would be early September.

Fox

Fox:

You are paddleing in the boat....And WH likes the view.

But he can step out of the boat onto the cruise ship and back anytime he wants.

LG

It may seem that way at first but either way, he picks up the oar or you use yours to knock him upside the head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />