Thank you for the post, LG.

Yes, my Plan B has been poor. That's a definate. Can it be fixed? I hope so.



I have a concern with this. Although, if he'd really listen, I'd love to do it. And I'd like to HEAR him, minus the fog.

Early on when I was REALLY doing Plan A and he was being such a jerk, I finally asked him why he was treating me that way. What had I done to deserve it? He told me I had done nothing to deserve it, just the opposite, but if he treated me well, I would think there was a chance and there just wasn't, he wanted a D, end of discussion.

Now that he is being decent again, will it scare him back into his hole that I'm asking to do lunch and talk?

I'm also concerned about my own emotions if we go to lunch. I think I'll cry and not be able to say what I need to say. Those emotions are still so close to the surface.

I don't think we can get to an agreeable visitation agreement alone. He wants them for way too many overnights with Bab's. It was difficult enough for me to let them go on the every other weekends with her. I gave in and then he wanted MORE. Unless I give him EXACTLY what he wants, we're stuck. WH wants every other week in the summer, I don't want that and DDs don't want that. Stuck.

Thanks, LG, for your thoughts. I'll continue to consider what you've said.

Fox

This is NOT what I said. I did not say this at all.


Then what is the point in the EN questionnaire?

Understanding him is NOT about controlling him, it's about controlling my actions in regards to him. So the desireable outcome remains a possibility.



Really, BR, I think we are saying the same thing in a different way. It's why I think I need to understand H, because how I thought I was ok, wasn't working for me.

But isn't motiviation a type of control? You are still trying to encourage the outcome that you want.

But in a different way....which could be considered manipulative.

Fox

No, we are not saying the same things at all.

When I stopped focusing on my husband and starting focusing on me, I discovered alot of things that were not very pretty.

Was I able to then understand how my husband must have experienced my behavior? yes.

But as long as I was trying to understand HIM, I was simply trying to figure out how to manipulate him into changing so I could be happy.

When I started working on ME, everything became so much clearer.

The defination of manipulate that I see from MB Plans is:



The "advantage or purpose" for us being the recovery of our marriages.

So we adapt or change our behavior for our prefered outcome.

This IS what I was trying to say. I just didn't say it as well.

To me, understanding how he may experiences my behavior is understanding HIM.

Wild ~ I am headed home now.

One more thought.

From the Alanon welcome:

"Our thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions and we become irritable and unreasonable without knowing it."

Wild ~ you are rationalizing your need to control your husband.

That is very far from what I am trying to help you see.

Fox:

BR is trying to help.

I do not want to muddy the waters, nor dilute what she is trying to say.

But BR, I believe, got to that "AHA!" moment. Like I did when I FIRST got to MB, and my BS felt, when SHE was reading this site.

Your WH is just your WH. Trying to make sense of the convoluted world he lives in, (and in many respects, created!)

He may never have the "AHA!" moment.

Have you?

Where the life you have lived, and your actions, and behaviors were laid plain to you in such a manner that you said to yourself: WOW? That was me?

Some had to travel far to get there, others, not so far.

And it's a trip the Wayward and Betrayed both have to take. Different trips, and different types of AHA moments (and I'm not blaming BS's for WS choice to be wayward here) need to happen.

What were your AHA! moments about yourself?

Any ideas?

LG

I don't think I am irritable and irrational when I ask questions.

I'm asking questions so I understand the way I need to understand what you are trying to say, so I can apply it to myself and my situation.

With those last two posts, I'm hearing that you are judging me because you don't see me "getting" what you have to say in a way that is acceptable to you.

What exactly are you looking for from me to prove to you that I heard it the way you want me to hear it?

Fox

This may sound snotty to you, BR, because you seem to read me as snotty. It is not intended that way.

LG,

I've had quite a few AHA moments. One of the most important being about DDs and how I may have excluded H from participating with them. Or at least made it more difficult for him to be involved.

Although I never felt I stood in the way of his discipline, he may have seen it as such.

When DD12 would mouth off to him and he'd go storming towards her room.....I'd simply say his name....in a warning(?) tone. I meant to remind him to watch his temper, not to stop him from disciplining. Looking back, I shouldn't have done that. He never hurt her, just scared the bejeezus out of her. I should have left his R with her to him.

Reading HNHN and SAA, I said "aha, aha, aha" many times over.

Another AHA came when I realized that my need to not be "needy" could have looked to H that he wasn't needed or valued for what he did and could do.

My need to understand is seen as controlling by some. Was H one of those? Maybe. AHA, that I see that people may view it that way, but not yet an AHA on WHY they see it this way.

I'm viewed by some as only wanting to be RIGHT. H could have been one of them. I don't think I have to be RIGHT, I think I need to understand why I am not before changing my views. Is this my AHA to get still? Is it necessary that I immediately back down on what I think is right so I'm not taken as argumentative?

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it is others' AHA moment to get about me. I can be WRONG, I just need to know WHY I am wrong.

One of my biggest regrets is NOT saying something when I felt my M going to south. I made what I considered attempts to do so and H didn't want to talk. He was "fine". AHA, to realizing that I need to speak up. Not yet an AHA, on HOW to do so without LB.

AHA, on realizing I should have put H first. Even above DDs. He should have come first and I am positive I did not show him that he was. BIG TIME AHA! I put DDs first because they couldn't take care of themselves, and I felt guilty for shuffling them off to someone else for "me" time, which is what I considered time with H. Being with him was special and for "me". I didn't give myself that luxury very often.

There's more, much more, but these are the key ones right now.

Thank you, LG, for asking.

Fox

Fox:

Thanks!

About the disipline?

THat is someplace that you needed to be WITH your H. What was apporpriate, what was not. It was a major issue in my R with my BS. She KNEW what to do, and I was disorganized in my efforts.

But really, what WE needed to do, beforehand, was discuss and get on the same page about disipline. I didn't, she wanted me too. I realize NOW, how wrong that was of me.

Your H heading down the hall, and you making him stop, was not you disrespecting him, per se, but not having had agreement about what the disipline was going to look like.

Yes, you were stopping him, but the first time, it's on him, to get to agreement as to how. You too. And the next couple of times, but what happened is, you get locked into the same behaviors and patterns. He should come back and get on the same page, so that you are working together for the styles that are H and W, and what is best for the kids.

H has a responsibility to clear this up, and if the only time it's ever brought up by W is just before, during or just after disipline is to be administered. Usually not a good time for a POJA discussion is it? So, then the trend continues till the disipline theory is never discussed, just the actions that occurred.

SO, I'm with you on that. I see my errors now.

And about this:

"One of my biggest regrets is NOT saying something when I felt my M going to south"

No. You described a couple of attempts. But by that time, he had checked out. That's why so many AHA! moments reading HNHN. What if someone had put that book in my hands 15 years ago? World of difference in my M if they had.

But. I also know that my BS put a number of books on child rearing on my nightstand, and I ignored them as well. I do not want to think that I would have been receptive to HNHN, since I wasn't reading something at that time that did apply. So, I look to my own faults on this.

It may have been disrespectful of W to put those books on my nightstand. But it was my pig head that didn't read them. Then, the other problems started to build inside our R, and I was still pig-headed. And W responded in the best way she knew how.

See the sprial?

You can now. WH needs to get there as well.

That's the AHA.

How completly and utterly wrong I could be when I thought I was doing it right.

LG

I think this is the conflict that WS's get into. Then the pull of the affair is too strong, so they get angry and lash out at the BS. They want the BS to give up hope and free them to live out their dream.

Please go back and read what I wrote. I was very specific. I did not say that your Plan B was planned this way. I said that your actions have communicated the rules.

You wrote to him with the rules.

What you did was cut off his ability to communicate with you – but you communicate with him whenever you come up with an excuse.

Say what you mean, mean what you say.

You didn’t.

By executing Plan B in the manner you describe – Plan B did not become a protection for you. It’s been used as a control tactic.

If I can see this, I am sure he does.


You didn’t fight the exposure. You fought the details. You caved to exposure almost from the beginning. Your children were exposed months ago and you’ve been allowing overnights.

You fought him on things like overnights on Sunday evening, because of school. You fought him on the cell phones – because you didn’t want him to have a say in what happens in your home. You fought him on all kinds of details – you did NOT fight him on exposure.

In fact, your girls have been your primary source of information as to what is going on in his life.

That has to stop too btw. Stop pumping your children for details about him.


You have already made it look like you don’t stand by what you say. He already doesn’t respect it. That damage has already been done – that’s been my whole point. You need to repair that damage and you can’t do it by going darker in Plan B.


I get that. And I don’t think your timing on Plan B was terrible. But your implementation of Plan B has been incredibly destructive.

This is why I say, you can not use the plans as a buffet table. You should not modify the plans without the help and advice of a professional.


You know this second hand through children. STOP talking to them about this!

Even if they are 100% accurate, it doesn’t matter. The point is, he is motivated to help her, and he was not motivated to help you. She doesn’t have the ability to “make” him do anything more than you did. He is making a CHOICE to help her.

Have you asked yourself what you might have done to contribute to his lack of motivation in your home?

As for the other household stuff…..I can only tell you that MY husband got motivated when I started respecting him. Period. When he realized that he got admired and appreciated, he couldn’t wait to help me.

I’m not saying your husband was perfect and you were the evil wicked witch. But he is not here – I am here to talk to YOU about YOUR behavior, not his.


That could be. But in the context of hundreds of your posts, describing all kinds of interactions and behaviors on your part…I don’t think you should dismiss it.


Do you see the question you asked me?

Translated: How do I control this situation to get what I want?

I suspect your husband IS depressed. I suspect that he didn’t get that way over night. I suspect that he gave up trying to please you or be heard by you a long time ago.

Hence the passive response.


I don’t need to. I am here to speak to you about you, not about him. I am simply responding to your own self reported behavior and frustrations.


*pounding my head*

I am sure that if he had not given them the cell phones, you would find another way to punish them. That’s a bogus excuse.

But set that aside for a moment.

The problem is not so much the punishment as the fact that you did not consult your husband about it. He gave the phones to them. You interfered with HIS parenting, without consulting him. You decided that he was wrong and you were right and therefore you were entitled to run right over him.


This is a huge DJ. He wants to talk to his children without having to go through you. This was about him getting out from under your control.

Power struggling. See?

So you are now asking, but how do I get him to stop power struggling with me?

Stop fighting him. Let it go. Stop trying to win. Stop trying to thwart him over petty crap.

Who cares if he gives them cell phones so he doesn’t have to go through you. I thought you were in Plan B? You should have been grateful that you did not have to pick up the phone and here his voice.


I disagree with your interpretation, but let’s say you are correct. So what? Who cares? How does it hurt you? Is winning that much more important than your marriage?

Make a rule about phone calls in general. If you really really think you need to take the phone away, discuss it with your husband and get his buyin first. That’s all he is really asking for….

Can you see his perspective? He feels that you are punishing HIM by shutting down his private access to his daughters.

And you are. Come on, you were ticked he bought the cell phones and this was a perfect opportunity for you to yank his chain over it.

If you can’t get honest about this kind of stuff, I really don’t think there is much hope for your marriage. I think that there has been a lot of damage, and a lot o finger pointing, powerstruggling and denial.

You can’t fix him. You can stop contributing on your side. That’s it. But first, you have to acknowledge that there’s a problem.



No, I'm not in it to be RIGHT. But I'd like to at least be UNDERSTOOD.

You are understood. You just don’t understand that yet.


My dear, I barely know you and your argumentative behavior is wearing me out.

I am SURE he just quit bothering to have a discussion with you.


I can’t imagine, calling one of my coworkers for information about something I needed to know, and being told, sorry, I don’t want you to think that I think you are incompetent, so I am going to withhold that info... Go find it for yourself.

In fact, withholding information would be grounds for a performance improvement plan. Being a team player means cooperating with requests, not sitting around passing judgment on the requestor and withholding information.



From my detachment with love thread:

Why??

The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.


This is precisely why I want you to stop looking at him and start looking at you.


Because honestly after reading pages upon pages of 6 months of your life, its clear that its your way or the highway. You are absolutely determined to be right. He’s tired of fighting with you.


You needed the same information. Exactly how was it going to harm you by being generous and helpful?

Do you normally withhold reasonable assistance when asked by other people? Or do you analyze them and pass judgment before deciding to grace them with your help?


Marriage is not a scorecard. If you are keeping a score card, someone is winning and someone is losing.


You know what? As adults, there are times when something else IS more important than a kids game. If you go to most of them, and miss a couple, so what? Your child should learn to think of others needs also.

But again, you see? You and I have a differing opinion. Neither of us needs to be RIGHT here. You’ll raise your children your way, I’ll raise mine my way. No one is harmed.

Your husband does not necessarily see it the way you do. And while you can ignore some opinionated broad on the internet, you do need to take his point of view into consideration.

<too many details snipped>

Holy moly woman. Just let this stuff go. It’s all unimportant and far too focused on controlling other people and situations. You are so involved and so frenetically busy that you don’t have time to do for you.

I am sure it is not by accident. Looking at yourself is scary.

I don’t want to hear one more word about your daughter’s schedules or another blow by blow account what your husband is doing at any given moment. I want to hear about YOU..

I don’t think you are snotty. I think you are not willing to let go. You’ve got a lot of justifications and rationalizations for why you have to do what you are doing…

But what you are doing is heading you into divorce court. Control is a fear response, and you are creating what you fear.

Wow -- this is such good stuff.
You have been given quite a gift Wild!

BRose -- wish you had been here to coach her all along.

I know that a lot of her responses were "off", but in her defense, she was trying to communicate within her boundries of Plan B. Its impossible to have this level of contact and communication and call it Plan B.

BRose -- it seems you are advocating a return to Plan A to fix some of this damage. Do you recommend any kind of communication to signify this change? Otherwise it remains confusing to WH; and makes another Plan B (a true Plan B) impossible.

Fox/Wild -- you have a lot to work with here! Stick with it!

Thank you, LG. I do see the spiral.

When I first read HNHN, I thought "OMG, I wish I'd had this book from the very beginning". I'm not sure it would have made a difference since it didn't seem as needed then.

I read Relationship Rescue about 2 years ago, but felt at a loss because H wouldn't participate. I tried to do my part but ended up feeling like I was doing everything again.

Thank you, LG, for invoking thought in a respectful way. I appreciate it. I learned so much from you on Sis' thread. I'm hoping she can learn from this thread.

Fox

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> BR, sometimes I think you and I need an intermediary between US so that only the meat of the conversation gets through.

I'm going to do my best to leave the items that I think are judgements alone and look hard for the meat of advice.

It may take me a minute......



I DID fight exposure. I found out about his A at the beginning of August, they were not introduced to Bab's until Feb 10. He lied to me about where they were going, then called me to tell me he was going to do it. MONTHS later, I ended up caving to overnights ONLY because my lawyer convinced me that it was better for the custody hearing. And like it or not, I have to cover my butt from all angles.

<response to judgement removed>



I DO NOT pump my children for information. When they need to talk about what goes on in their lives (including their life with WH), I am willing to listen and talk with them. I post a snippet of our conversation that I feel applies here. This sux for my kids and if I can ease their pain, confusion, and frustration then I will. Not allowing them to talk to me because it may be hard for me only makes it harder for them. I want to be there safe place.

That is different from gleaning information from them so that I can CONTROL things.



Point taken. (mini AHA)



Yes, and what I've come up with is that I enabled it. It was that way from the beginning. His mother always did everything for him in regards to home life - she STILL makes him lunch. When we married he seemed to expect that from me, and I gave it for the most part....and then resented it.

He said on a couple of different occasions that as long as he kept the vehicles running, he was doing his part.




Honestly, BR, I did the best I could with what I had to work with. I talked to Jennifer right after WH moved out. It was helpful at the time.

I'll continue to consider the radio show.



I think we had this conversation yesterday......



So it's my fault that he was depressed? I'm not taking that one on. If he GAVE UP "trying", who's choice was that?

I can't ever hear him if he never speaks. I'm not a mind-reader, as hard as I tried. He does not like to talk about anything bad (what he wrote on his EN questionnairre, btw) so he shoves everything bad down. Where it festers, and causes stomache trouble, chest pains, depression, etc. Alot of this, I think, was stress from work but also just general stuff in life that wasn't that big of a deal on it's own. When it all added up, it WAS a big deal.



.....at a time when my whole world was blown apart. So my behavior and reaction is not necessarily reflective of my M.



I get your point on this about finding something else. In the heat of the moment, trying to deal with DD12, WH was not a thought. It had nothing to do with him at all.

For the record, WH and I had discussed getting DDs cell phones TOGETHER. I opted out because 1) I could not afford it, and 2) I wasn't about to get into another financial commitment with him that I could be stuck with.

I think some of your points are valid regarding his reasons for giving them cell phones. Under consideration....



I ask because I CARE about the person and what they think and feel about the situation. So that we might compromise if they think differently then I do.



<response to judgement removed>

We were together almost 16 years, it wasn't all bad.

I have much to fix about myself and much to recognize still. I see the power struggling and that will be a BIGGIE.



If I had the information I would have WANTED to give it to him. My first instinct was to get it and give it to him because that is what I have always done.

My confusion on this comes from the MB plans and you, BR. Would that have been enabling behavior to get him what he needed when he could do it himself? How would it reflect on my Plan B? Would getting that info for him be treating him like he is incompetant?

I had reason (call them justifications if you want) for questioning whether I should do it or not.

IRL I am questioning my gut reaction to something because of what I am learning here. That maybe my behavior wasn't as good as it could be. Hence the questioning myself.

You may say that this was about WH and his relationship with DDs and it is not about me and what I do. But he asked me to be involved. My question to myself was how much can I be involved without being in the way?


Fox

Good questions, Lexxxy

Wild... after reading all of this I think his mom is more to blame for his relationship issues than you are! You married a momma's boy! He wanted you to give give give when he only gave a little. I bet you were left doing a lot on your own and began to resent it. How many women can identify with that feeling? A LOT.

(sitting on my hands) I'll refrain from saying much more than that.

fcf, I've thought this for a long time. Going into the marriage, I knew he was close with his parents, but didn't realize that it was still SO close. The apron strings have never been cut.

In all fairness, I didn't do anything about it. I don't know if I should have, either. Leaving his R with his mom to him. I wasn't sure (and still not sure) how to separate that since it feels as though he expects his W to do all the things his mother does. And if she doesn't? He goes to his mother for it. Which made me feel as though I wasn't good enough.



Right or wrong, this IS how I felt (he probably felt differently). I didn't know how to change that. I was afraid by NOT doing the things he expected we would end up exactly where we are today.

(thank you for sitting on your hands! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) My delete button is getting worn out because I've decided NOT to respond to certain things. I'm not always successful, but it's a start.

Thanks for your posts, fcf.