I've calmed down quite a bit. The anger, hurt, tears, and frustration have abated and I see more clearly now. Back to that place of rest.

Remember to breathe. And make sure to do something for yourself tonight. Hot bath? Listen to some music? Favorite movie? Chocolate?

Alternatively, as part of my research I found a guy who wrote his doctoral thesis comparing bacillus growth in Sippy Cups vs straw cups under a variety of conditions. I of course ordered a copy for my own reference. I can send you the highlights if you want--I have to think it would calm you right down.

Good lord, some of those theses can put you to sleep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Silent,

We must be on the same wavlength... I was going to say what a great sedative.

Still

Well . . . I thought that was the point.

Yeah, but CRYING youself to sleep isn't helpful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Another EXCELLENT volleyball game yesterday. Won both games again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I caught a cold and feel pretty cruddy, sore throat, stuffy, headache, etc. So after the volleyball game I went home and took a nap. WH had DDs. I felt MUCH better, emotionally after some rest.

WH brought DDs home pretty close to the scheduled time.

Right before bedtime WH called and talked to DDs. When he was on the phone with DD13 she turned to me and asked if I agreed to what he wanted for Easter/Spring Break. I told her I would agree to the days but no overnights at his house and she passed that info to him. He told her that was just RIDICULOUS. They talked a little more and then hung up.

He called back 10 minutes later and DD12 picked up the phone, they spoke for a couple seconds and she held the phone towards me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> DD12 would not be okay telling him I wouldn't speak with him and we do need to figure out Spring Break and Easter so I took the phone.

He was a jerk, yelling, swearing, demanding "his" time with "his" kids because it was his "right". I told him I would be willing to work time out with him but I was not willing for him to have them overnight at his house. "That's just F'ING STUPID, BS. DDs are 1/2 mine and 1/2 yours and I want MY time with them". I told him I was sorry he felt that way and I also said DDs were not 1/2s they are all mine and they are all his and it wasn't HIS time it was THEIRS. "You're not sorry, you're enjoying every f'ing moment of this! You better be at the next court hearing, I'm telling you that". BS: "Or what, are you going to Divorce me MORE?"

He kept angrily telling me that it was only "fair" that he gets DDs for Easter since he has not had them for a holiday since August. The whole "fair" thing makes me sooooo mad! I calmy asked him whether he had asked for DDs for any holidays and he said "well, I'm asking now" I said I didn't think it was "fair" that DDs are taken from their mother on holidays and it isn't "fair" they have had their lives split in 1/2 because he chose to do so. He said "I'm not going to talk about that. I want them NOW. And you better get used to only having them 1/2 the time because that is how it is going to be" BS: "No, it won't be 1/2 time, I'll have to give some but not 1/2 time and I will not willingly give them up without being told I have to."

I asked him why he thought he was going to get anything from me when he calls demanding and swearing and being mean. He said "'Well, I've tried everything else!" I sure don't remember anything else.

I asked him if he was willing to agree that DDs not stay overnight at his house. He was not so I told him I was finished with the conversation. After long moments of silence..... I said "I guess we're done then" and hung up the phone.

I can tell it just PISSES him off when I am calm and factual. I think he gets frustrated when he can't get me upset. Good thing he caught me last night and not the night before, or I would have just cried and tried to "reason" with him. I was stronger last night and didn't let his self-righteous entitled anger get to me.

After I hung up the phone, DD13 said "doesn't he know if he could just be nice that you would talk with him about this stuff?"

I pretty much know what DD13 would like to do for this time but DD12 hasn't talked much about it. She finally opened up a little bit this morning and told me what she would like. As expected, they both want some time with their dad but are also okay with not staying the night at his house.

So it's still up in there air....if he can't calm down and talk civilly he's going to end up with nothing.

I'm considering emailing him with a couple of different options, with the stipulation still in there that they cannot stay overnight at his house and he must email the confirmation back. What do you guys think? Do I make the offer or do I let him sit and stew on it and make him call me if he wants DDs badly enough?

Fox

Sounds pretty much like what was being spewed at me when WH was demanding HIS time with DS. I'm sure that the OW, in your case, is fueling his fire. He cannot see the damage, he doesn't want to see it. He's fighting the guilt. It's a losing battle. If you feel the need to email him, be sure to stick to facts, as you have done in the past.

When battling to keep my son from overnights, I emailed my WH to STOP pretending that this situation is healthy and stable for our son. I became a drill seargent. I didn't bark orders, but I was firm.

Have you had or have you considered getting some counseling for your daughters? They are both suffering so much during this time, no matter how stubborn the 12yo acts, they are both so bewildered and hurt right now. They probably ache to be with their dad. Don't allow them to shut down on you, especially the quiet one (DD13?).

Fox, on a side note, everytime you speak to that WH, he takes the love you have and squashes it a bit more. He ticks away at it. DO NOT SPEAK TO HIM. If DD holds the phone up in the air, grab it and hang it up. Even if it is not YOU screaming, they know their dad is, and it's not a good scene for them. Every thing that their dad does has an impact. Maybe relaying this information to your WH is in order. HE is one of their role models, and WILL be emulated in one way or another. Tell him that you will not speak to him under any circumstances. He may email you information and you will respond in kind. You will not be talking to him again--and STICK to it.

Reiterate that the time they spend with dad is for the sake of the girls, not the other way around, and that time should be SOLELY spent paying as much attention to those girls as possible. They need him, and should not have to share THEIR time with ANYONE. Let him know, "THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU"

I would love to pop him upside the head right now.

(((((Fox and DD's)))))

Wild,

If I remember correctly and I could be wrong but hasn't he not paid any CS?

If he hasn't then he has no "rights" until he mans up and supports his children.

Still

Do they ever stop spewing this crap or have any idea how selfish they are?



They have gone to counseling...right at the beginning of this. She was not at all helpful, and I think somewhat detrimental. She pushed them to accept their dad's new life and he was just trying to be happy and couldn't be happy with me anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> They went 4 or 5 times, she continually told me I was doing a good job and my relationship with DDs was strong.

She even met with WH once, told him what he was doing was ok as long as he was happy and that DDs would adjust. Also told him it was just a matter of time, one of us was going to cheat and it just happened to be him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />



This is sooo true, silent. I don't have much left for him at all. After talking with him last night, I just don't see him coming out of this and being a decent human being again.



I want to do this, sl. And explain how he is ruining his relationship with his DDs and how I DON'T want that to happen, for their sake. But I don't think he'll believe me or taking anything I say into consideration. He says everything I say or do is a lie and manipulative.

I would love to pop him upside the head right now, too.

You are correct, still, he is not paying ANY child support. I don't think he has any "rights" and should man up, too. But I don't want to take time with him away from DDs if they want it.

It's all just so frustrating. Why does he think he should get what he wants, when he wants it without taking anyone else's feelings into consideration?

I'll write my email and then post it here before sending. Thanks for all the help.

There is divorce care, as well as the Rainbows organization, who deal directly with the loss suffered by children during separation or just major life changes. There will be no one telling those kids that THIS sitch is ok. They will learn to deal with their grief. That counselor was a POS.

Also, I called my school district/county psychology board and they referred me to a center that helps children deal with separation and divorce. I am still considering sending my son there, after I hear more information from my WH (he has joined the search and is looking for care for our DS).





If you start the email off in the right tone, you may be able to get your points across . The first thing to do is set the tone. I would even suggest first telling a story about daughters, and how much they love their dad. Then you can talk about how you worry for their emotional health and feel the need to protect them from harm. You would like WH to join in the fight to protect them. You are looking into counseling, and would prefer to keep things status quo until such a time that you can get help for them. You can then tell him that you are more than happy to have daughters spend oodles of time with their dad, as long as that time is focused on DD's. Your concern is for them, and you are not fighting AGAINST him.

In my case, I first had to be more terse. I had to say that I would not let further harm come to our son, even if that meant that I had to fight. I described my sitch as a child and said that I WOULD NOT ALLOW history to repeat itself, not with my son. I was going to protect him from any more pain.

Maybe the message will not hit the target, but maybe it will break through and get him to consider the damage that his daughters are sustaining. If he doesn't respond in kind, you have record that you have been trying your best to help your girls, for the courts...

You're right about this. There's no point in lecturing him or trying to convince him of anything. It will only make him mad and frustrate you. Lose-lose.


Chris was supposed to put gas in the Batmobile. I'm ready any time.


Because he's a wayward. He's lost in his own reality and can't see his way out of it. It's a long out-of-body experience. I look at my situation and say that there are basically two possibilities. 1) That WW is lost in the Fog of affair (as per the formula we have seen here so often. Sooner or later she will wake up, and maybe W will come out again. or 2) She's a [censored]. A despicable person, and I lived with her for 17 years without discovering it. For me, the evidence points toward the first, and I am a data-driven guy.

Your husband is still in there. You saw him just the other day, remember?

Then you got massively triggered multiple times. I reacted to your phone call the same way SL did. When I was reading it, I said uh-oh and then No!! It's been said, and you already know it, but No More Talking to WH! It's just too draining, especially when they are in Crazy-Wayward Mode. And yours will be there for a while, I think. By refusing to give in on overnights, you are holding up the mirror (why doesn't she agree to this? Oh, because it's wrong) AND interfering in their fantasy life, and waywards hate that.

In my conversation with Jennifer, she was worried about me talking FTF with WW for the same reasons--it will be too hard for me, especially if WW doesn't agree with my proposal. She reminded me what her goal is--to keep me going.

A calm email with options. Post it here first. No more talking.

Oh, and I agree. Your counselor was a moron.

Here is my email to WH about Easter and Spring Break. Please provide suggestions! Thank you,

I would omit what's bolded:




I would get rid of any YOU NEED TO's. I would just be factual on what DD's have expressed to you. The fact that they have spoken about WH and OW groping each other show's a level of discomfort.

DO NOT MENTION OW. She bears no credence when your children are involved, just mention that the 'conditions' that he is living under right now are not comfortable for the girls, as expressed by THEM.

Wildhorses,

Rather than go through sentence by sentence, here is my general impression. The first paragraph is pretty much nothing but projection and DJ's because most of the things you write say, "You sounded so sad and broken" or "They are secondary in your life". You are telling him what he felt or what he thinks! Thus, I would suggest a complete re-write of the first paragraph, completely keeping the focus on you, wildhorses. "I received a call from you in January asking me to help you do right by the girls. I intend to live up to my promise to you that day. I intend to do everything within my power to build a strong and loving relationship between you and the girls whilst also remaining villigent of the moral lessons and role models in their life. I believe in you as their father and I believe you want to put them first in your life--number one priority. With that in mind, I do not believe that it is a good moral lesson for them to see two married people, who are breaking up families, living together and pretending it does no harm. I also do not believe it is a good role model to show our girls it is okay for a man to walk away from the commitments of marriage and family. Finally I do not believe you can put the girls FIRST, as the top, number one priority, when MOW is in the picture because you have already demonstrated that you are willing to hurt the children in order to put her first. "

In the second paragraph, change "you need to stop...." to something like "I personally wish you would stop pretending..." That way you are not telling him what to do.

The rest is pretty good. It's kind of LONG for a Plan B email though...isn't it? Is there a reason why you aren't negotiating this through an intermediary? Also, is there any kind of court-order about holidays? If so, court-order supersedes even common sense (haha). You would need to follow the court-order in order to retain custody of the girls--lose a battle in order to win the war.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

Thank you, SL. It has been edited.

Good points, CJ, I'll think about reworking it. There is no court order at all yet and my intermediary did not work out.

Less is more. Loose that fist paragraph all together (IMHO)

MB

So how did it end up going this weekend?

Hi WildH,

I have not been on the site for a few days. I think I needed an emotional break. How did the Easter weekend go? I thought about you a few times through the weekend and hoped it went okay. Let us know.