My interpretation of Plan B was complete darkness, NO interaction at all, UNLESS there is no other way, as in going to games to support your children, THEN you have to put on your game face and keep your distance.

Plan A is improving YOURSELF, and showing the WS that you can make changes, they can stick and you can be a GREAT spouse.

The conflicting advice is coming from a place where OTHERS are confused as to what Fox wants right now.

I hear Fox saying that she wants to be in Plan B, but she is encountering WH a lot these days, so she is trying to figure out what to do.

If you are in Plan B, the WS must figure it ALL out for themselves, Fox is RIGHT about that. Separate lives. No helping, coddling, listening, being there for, none of that. It's the communication with him that bothers me, as I'm sure it bothers her. An intermediary would be best in this sitch, and would force WH to do it ALL HIMSELF.

Now, he is also sending out signals, very subversive, but there, none the less. He is being nice, KIND even. He is talking to Fox, about the games and such. He may be reaching out, but for what? For an amicable divorce and post divorce co-parenting R? To show that he still wants to be a part of things? To show Fox that he still wants her in some way?

Hi Wild, I've not had alot of time to respond to you...I started part of a response earlier but didn't have time to complete it.

Let me just say this. If you are in Plan B, I can't tell from your posts.

Honestly, you seem to be in Plan LoveBust. I have to say that if this is what you call Plan B, I am more than a bit concerned - it looks far more like Plan D.

I have alot of stuff to say to you, and I will be able to do so over the weekend, probably tomorrow night after I get back home from New Hampshire.

Are you in Alanon right now? The stuff I am reading from you indicates to me that you would benefit greatly.

Fox,

Take a look at this portion of your last post. What would you think if you read about a girl who was trying to just be able to walk down the hall t/b near a particular boy? Sounds more like a school girl thing than a H & W thing, right?

Yet you want to plan another encounter? You shouldn't have to.

You are focusing on the wrong stuff. The small stuff and it will not help you move forward.

Let him show you more than a trot down the hall. You should be swept off your feet and nothing less.

Don't settle for crumbs of attention.

Enjoy the awards ceremony but don't get excited over his little dribbles. Otherwise he will only give you dribbles. That stuff gets old quickly.

L.

I wonder about this. I don't know if this is the case or not. My questions is how to let him know it could be an option without setting myself up for more hurt.

I don't know if there IS an answer to this. Alot of opinions, but no definate answers.



I did this just prior to Plan B. His answer was yes, but it wasn't very convincing. I think he said something like "I think we just need to do it and get it over with. I don't think this can be fixed". I was expecting a "yes, absolutely, I am so done and I am going to love Bab's forever".

I did get the "I'm going to love Bab's forever but that was in a conversation a couple of months later and he was mad over something.

I may consider asking him again right before the final hearing.

Fox

You're spot on with this, sdguy. I didn't feel that I was at risk of of not being able to hold myself together. I'm prepared to walk away if I see WH in full force.

My only concern with this interaction is that he may see it as having an amicable divorce. I'm not sure how to shut that down yet show him that I do not hate or despise him.

I'd love to call the Harley's. But there is no way I can fit it in the budget right now. I may consider the radio show, though. Can you really give them enough information in that short a time span to be able to get a thorough answer?

I'm a bit concerned with that because it seems here on my thread, I'm being given advice based on the last few pages of my thread. Without those giving advice really having a thorough understanding of where I'm at and where I've come from.

Fox

Howdy Fox,

With your question about the radio show, I think they take your info down prior to you being on air, so that Dr. Harley can prepare. I thought I read this on someone elses thread.

Anyway, that aside, I'm so sorry that all this confusion has come up. I don't really have an opinion about how to be in contact with WH and show him that you aren't doing it for an amicable D. I think this is the way he's going to see it, like it or not. He filed for a D, and now you are being amicable. What he sees is what he gets. Your actions speak to him.

Maybe you can find a better way of getting around to the answer you seek, other than just blurting out the same question, different day. Maybe talk about how mixed up YOU are, and how you just don't feel that D, right now, is the right thing, for you. Talk about YOU.

This will probably get the smack down by many here, but, if you are willing to put yourself out there for such a pointed question as "is this really what you want?", why not put yourself out there and talk about where you are. Now, if he responds that there is just no way this will ever work, you can implement a really dark Plan B, or choose to D amicably; whatever you can weather.

((((Fox))))

Yes, SL. This is exactly what I am saying.



This isn't really bothering me from him. It's bothering me here.....where I'm questioned and told to let him help when I'm trying to NOT let him help...because my understanding of Plan B is that he is no longer a part of our family and must stand on his own two feet.

This communication has given me alot to think about. I was getting to the point that I was confident enough in my future WITHOUT WH that I wasn't keeping tabs on the fact that a future WITH H was still possible. I was letting that fall to the way side. It reminded but there is still love left for this man and that it could be great between us if we both wanted that.

I had shoved that all aside so I could move forward and I wasn't CLINGING so hard to the fact that I KNEW we could recover and that HE just needed to see it. I am still moving forward, but glancing again over my shoulder to see if he wants to catch up.



These are the questions, SL. How in the world do I know the difference between him trying to make it an amicable divorce and the possibility that he may still want me in some way?

Only H knows the answer to this.

I really don't think you have read enough of my posts to know where exactly I am at.

I think this was misinterpreted, Orchid. I didn't mean that I wanted to set up another encounter, I meant I wanted that back permenantly....

I am NOT thrilled that the boy I have a crush on walked next to me. I only wanted to point out that he didn't run like a scared little rabbit when it ended up that way.



This is completely true. I WILL NOT take the crumbs, but I need to at least recognize when he makes some sort of effort. Just because I recognize those, it doesn't mean that I am going to fall into his arms and let him have Bab's on the side.

Part of working on myself in regards to my M is recognizing when H makes an effort. In a ways that are right for me, but also those ways that he feels are right. To not even recognize an effort, is a LB to me. Who wants to make an effort and it goes completely unnoticed. Personally, I think when effort is not recognized, it is less likely to occur again. Why do something for someone when it looks like it doesn't matter to them whether you do it or not?

FYI--He and DD13 didn't make it to the awards ceremony. DD13 called and told me they were going to be late. Something about her washing her shoes and she wasn't watching the time and they weren't dry yet. So they were waiting for them to be dry.

Hey, SL.



I think I read this, too. I'll work on the recap I was planning for my thread and that should be good to use also for the radio show.

I think I need some professional direction here.



I think there is a catch here, though. While he may be seeing my current behavior as being amicable to D because that is just how waywards see it, what if my current behavior was a strict Plan B...not going to games or staying way off to the side, absolutely NO interaction. What would he think as a wayward then? I think he would continue to think "yup, Fox is a biotch, look at how unreasonable she is, can't even be decent at DDs games and she can't do what is right be DDs. Then she tells me I am making bad decisions for DDs, who is Fox to talk"

As a wayward, I think he would miss the point of Plan B. In talking to Orchid, she had three exceptions to contact with her WH. They were 1. kids, 2. bills, 3. mail. I think this is more realistic than disappearing. Especially when there are children involved.

I'll probably get the MB smackdown here too. I'm just talking out the things that roll around in my head.



This is a good point. I'll have to ponder this a little bit. But bottom line is - if he is with Bab's and plans on keeping it that way, than D is the right thing for me..and the sooner the better.

If he's having doubts...then I'd like to wait and see. He would have to show me much more than what he has so far. As long as he continues to go home to Bab's, his thought process will not be clear and NOTHING can be done for us.

Thanks for your thoughts (and hugs) everyone.

Fox

On the contrary.

I've read a significant amount of your thread. You are in exactly the same spot you were in Dec - unless I missed something in the 10 pages or so that I haven't read?

You are not in Plan B, by any stretch.

You are in a power struggle with your husband - which is neither Plan B or Plan A, but certainly is Plan D.

Rosie is right, Plan B means NO CONTACT and you are not in Plan B. It is complete darkness. No communication about anything, anytime, except emergencies. Finances should be seperated and visitation schedules set in stone before Plan B, with a designated intermediary to communicate any CRITICAL information and act as a SPAM FILTER.

The goal of Plan B, which should be implemented after 6 wks to 3 months of Plan A, is to remove the BS from the trauma of the affair and to prevent the WS from eating cake. The WS has the best of both worlds and as long as he has continued contact with the BS while in his affair. Plan A was never intended to be a way of life, but a very temporary phase. Allowing him to eat cake gives him no motivation whatsoever to end his affair.

Anyway, if you are interested, here is a good article about Plan B: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Hi Wild,

I’ve been kinda working on this response for a couple of days, so I apologize if something feels disjointed.

First things first. I’m not writing this post to point out all of the stuff you’ve done wrong or to highlight your mistakes. HOWEVER, I need you to see things from a different perspective and what I am going to say will hopefully result in your thought and reflection.

Second thing. I am not taking your husband’s side. He’s been a jerk, many times over. But as mimi is so fond of saying….he is your garden variety WS. Your situation is not different or unique. I am going to defend him from a lot of your conjecture and disrespectful judgments. He is very fogged out….but that doesn’t mean it is open season to take his inventory in such a way that is profoundly damaging YOU, coloring your behavior towards him and draining your love for him. And that’s what has been going on for pages ad nauseum on your thread.

Now that we got all that out of the way.


I don’t know if it is too late for your marriage.

I think that if you really want to be married, you need to stop your so-called Plan B. It’s doing more harm than good to your marriage.

If you really want to be divorced….you need to stop your so-called Plan B, its doing tremendous harm to your ability to co-parent.

You may have done a fairly effective Plan A. At least your husband was reaching out to you and expressing doubts back in Dec before you went to Plan B.

But then you went to Plan B, and I don’t think you really went more than 48 hours without contact – except for a stretch there when you managed to stay dark for a couple of weeks.

The problem is, you sent the Plan B letter, and then promptly broke it, over and over and over. You’ve been at it for over 6 months, and you personally are not really in a much better place. You are still obsessed about his every move.

Your Plan B became not a boundary to protect you or to allow him to experience life without you, but instead became a tool for manipulation.

Your actions said: YOU may not contact me, but I will contact you whenever I see fit. To make it worse, you frequently lovebusted when you had contact.

Your plan B quickly dissolved into a giant power struggle.

The impact your Plan A may have had was quickly negated, because you reverted to lovebusting…simply proving to your husband that you were never really changed and that it was more of the same, manipulation and control.

He was actually trying to cooperate, expressing doubt about his choices…until you did Plan B, at which point you both dug in your heels and started trying to control each other.

Plan B is about detaching, letting go, taking the WS from the center of your life. It's about protecting what love you have left so that when the affair ends, you will still be open to recovery. And your so-called Plan B has done exactly the opposite. You are losing your love and putting your daughter's family in even greater danger.

You have simply sat on the sidelines peeking into his relationship and analyzing him to death. Occasionally you stick your head out to ream him a good one. Most of it not fair or accurate I believe.

Now, I really think, that you have dug yourself into such a hole, that you really really should consider talking to Steve Harley. He can not possibly be more expensive than all that constant emails to the attorney to settle every squabble you guys have had.

I don’t known what Steve would say to you, but I sincerely doubt he’d have you go into a dark Plan B right now. I think you have some repair work to do before your husband takes anything you say seriously.

The huge, huge, HUGE thing I found in the hundreds of posts was something you wrote about at least twice, and your interpretation just has my jaw on the table.

You said (bold purple emphasis is mine):


How interesting that you saw this as a negative thing for him. I’m not saying this to hurt you. I read this and said to myself – no wonder he is attracted to Babs!


Where is she telling him what to do? This is your conjecture.

I’ll share with you the bitter lesson I learned while my husband was off having his affair…

Preaffair – my husband never lifted a FINGER around the house. NOTHING, nada, zip, I did it all.

One day I realized, that he left it all for me to do because I really was too controlling. He had to do it my way, on my terms, when I asked. I usually was dissatisfied with the result and did it over myself, with huge martyred sighs and complaints.

Never once did I say thank him for his effort. Never once did I respect him enough to “allow” him to do something differently than I did. My requests for help were never simple requests, they always came with detailed instructions because I didn’t respect or trust him to do it the “right” way. Never once did I accept that his priorities might not only be different than mine but gosh the world wouldn’t fall apart if the task wasn’t done properly on my terms.

I got a huge fix out of being self-righteous and martyred. I got to feel good about myself by making him small and useless. He couldn’t do ANYTHING without my help. I didn’t help him out of love. I helped him because I thought he was not capable, and boy did my husband understand that, because I made sure he felt small and pathetic. (boy did I feel smart and strong and better than HIM though!)

I never respected him enough to let him do his own work, even his corporate jobs I got involved, and would “help” him do his expense reports or tell him how to conduct his business. This behavior was a huge lovebuster, although he went along with me and never complained. He gave up fighting and just let me do it because it was easier than arguing.

In the past, I would request (made up example): Make the kids lunch. Be sure you use the paper plates and make them peanut butter and jelly. Cut the crusts and make sure they eat their applesauce last.

Now I say: Honey, would you mind making lunch for the kids?

He won’t do it my way.

But the kids won’t be starving. Worse yet, they’ll probably like his lunch better than mine.

And then you wrote:


It sounds to me like she listens to his advice and does things his way sometimes.

Instead of being on the receiving end of dictation, he gets to be heard in their relationship.


I am quite sure that Babs is not what he really wants. However, let me point something out.

To a man who has a huge need for domestic support – this 50/50 housework stuff would probably be a lovebuster.

To a man who has a huge need for admiration and respect – this 50/50 housework stuff would probably be a love bank deposit, just simply because he is treated as an equal adult.

When you list the things you did for him, did it ever occur to you that perhaps your lack of “need” for his help, along with the fact that you did your stuff, and his stuff, that perhaps he felt unappreciated, disrespected and unneeded?

I learned in Alanon that doing for others what they can and should do for themselves is pretty darn disrespectful. I had no idea; I always thought I was such a wonder woman by picking up all the slack for everyone else. Poor me stuck doing everyone else’s stuff…

That’s why I no longer dictate to my husband how to do chores. Instead, I appreciate what he does, and as long as the important stuff is covered, I don’t complain.

Post affair – my husband does ALL of the cooking, and all of the grocery shopping. He helps with the laundry too. Oh and he grows tomatoes and plants gorgeous flower gardens for me. My kids are far from starving and nothing disastrous has happened without my being in control at the center of the universe.

Once I stopped dictating and controlling (I never believed I was controlling, I was just right…I mean, there was no other way to see it – I was just helping him to understand!) and started appreciating and respecting my husband, he fell all over himself to do things for me. It makes him feel GOOD to help me.

That, I suspect, was the vulnerability for your husband that gave Babs the leverage she needed.


This DJ comes from your belief that your husband is lazy and incompetent.

I suspect that nothing could be farther from the truth.

Now, I can almost hear you: I didn’t control him! (I didn’t think I had either. I was just straightening him out about the way things WERE – I mean come on, he was stupid and just needed a nudge from me to set him straight!)

Perhaps. But your husband has repeatedly reported that he felt controlled. Now every WS spouts it and most of it is revisionist history or highly exaggerated. But…I’ve read through hundreds of posts where you dictated how visitation was going to work. I hear your husband’s frustrations.

Again, I think you’ve lost your credibility with him and need to repair it. Why? Because I totally get that you did not want your daughters exposed to the OW. I completely agree. That’s a huge fight I think you should have taken all the way the finish line and never given up.

But the problem is, you fought him on every other stupid nit picking thing that just didn’t matter in the big scheme of things. So your objections about exposure to OW just become more of the same ole same ole attempt to control and dictate.

The worst part is, all of this behavior on your part has ENABLED his affair to continue.

You’ve remained in the triangle, uniting them against you.

You’ve continued to lovebust, providing him more justification in his mind for leaving and not coming home.

For example, He bought your daughters cell phones so he could call them. You feel that cell phones are a luxury for children. He does not. He had every right to give them the phones so he can remain connected to them. Sure, make a rule – no phone calls, land or cell, after 9. But I had to agree, that if you need to provide consequences for bad behavior, it should be something other than the phone, unless you have his agreement. Otherwise, it’s between him and your DDs.

Yes it would be nice if he had consulted you first.

But you are not in this to be RIGHT are you?

(For the record, my teens have cell phones for the same reason. It’s not a luxury. I have GPS on the phones so I can locate them. I need the ability to talk with them through out the day, especially since I often work 40-50 hours a week and I commute 3 hours a day. They have cell phones FOR ME to stay connected during the day and to parent. See…..not everyone sees it your way).

Was it worth the lovebusting done to your marriage over the power struggle?

You see, I think he’s felt that your marriage was on your terms and he had no say. His Taker finally lost all patience and decided he is going to yank back control of his life. And you are right in there doing batte….instead of showing his Taker that it is safe to go back to sleep, that you will protect your husband and not lovebust him this way any longer.

Here's the deal, regarding the most recent incident I posted to you about:

If he asks a question about schedules, offer it to him. That's not parenting him. That's called co-parenting your children.

Could he or should he get this information himself? Yes. Is what he should or should not be doing your business? No. At the cost of sounding like a broken record…what he SHOULD be doing is none of your business, and you are spending far too much time analyzing him this way!

He could have chosen to get the information on his own but he decided to get it through you. Since you are in contact with him, it does no one any good if you lovebust by withholding the information.

Had you called him back and said hey here's the times: He might have shown up - thats a WIN for your daughter.

Yes, he could have gone around you and gotten the information another way.

But here's the kicker. You can't control him. You can control yourself. YOU have to act in the best way possible for you and your daughter's regardless of what his motivations are (which you can't possibly know, you are not in his head so stop analyzing him!).

Now you asked me:

I think that if you are in contact with your husband, that Plan A must apply. ESPECIALLY if you are breaking plan B.

When are you going to see that he asks you – rather than get it wrong and have you mad at him for not doing it right?
I see him trying (fogged Babs induced aggression excluded) to get along with you and not cause a fight. I see him wanting to be respected as the father of your daughters. But you keep making his behavior about you in a way that completely excludes respect for him at all.

You can’t educate him. You certainly can’t force him to see anything. Plan B is about offering the opportunity to experience what divorce will bring. Maybe he’ll see it, maybe he won’t. Its not about force. You can’t dictate his behavior; you can’t stop him from asking you – especially since YOU make yourself available to be asked.
You are not in Plan B.

Your marriage has changed. The fact that he is your daughter’s father has not. He never could ‘replace’ you even if your marriage was still intact. But a parent is better than no parent at an event, and if you both can be there, then that is great.

Aaah well. YOU are still the wife, YOU are still married, regardless of his living quarters. And regardless, what does the state of your marriage have to do with trading off games? As I’ve already said, you aren’t in Plan B, so you might as well Plan A. Plan A means you should be allowing your husband to help you and feel good about it.


If you were chasing him down unasked to give him the schedule and tell him when he should be there and where he should sit….I’d call that mothering.

But he asked. Was it perfect? No. Was it a step in the right direction? Yes.



That’s YOUR judgment. In your world, making an effort is defined this way. That is not necessarily what is defined in his.

I don’t get the impression that he is deliriously happy with Babs. He’s just not convinced that you are the better choice.


I get that. But you know they (your H and DD) wanted to know. You could have called your daughter back to give information…instead of leaving her in the middle…

Anyway, this post has grown too long. So even though I could go on, I won’t.

Whatever you do right now, hold off on asking any “What do you want?” questions.

I don’t think he knows. If you are his choice, you’ll know. No need to love bust by bringing up relationship talk.

Fox,

First off--Good morning!

Secondly, BR's posts to you are chaulk full of interesting information about what you can do to get the roller coaster back on the tracks. She is taking a considerable amount of time to talk to you, probably because she has BEEN you. I don't think she is going to steer you wrong at all.

After reading "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands", my eyes are fully opened. The book focuses solely on how wives tend to treat their husbands, after the honeymoon is well over. I can't say that one thing she said, I haven't done. I have, guilty!

I plan on reading her next book in the series about proper care and feeding of marriage, as it works on BOTH parties. Now that I know much of where *I* went wrong, I would like to see what both parties could be doing, and also implement that. YOu can never have too much info on this stuff.

She talks about 'traditional' roles in marriage. You don't have to quit your job, or quit being a strong woman, by no means, but you need to examine how you treat your husband. It's key to moving forward, for you or for you WITH him.

I know a lot of pride swallowing must occur here. It's tough to change deeply engrained patterns, but if I can do it, he!!, anybody can.

Since BR said it, I'm gonna back it, go back to Plan A. I think you are stronger now than in the beginning and can fully recognize that this is a fight worth fighting. NO matter what the outcome, it's worth it.

Great post, Rosie!

Bramblerose,

I read your latest post to wildhorses in regards to parenting. I totally relate to what you said about yourself prior to d-day.

I have a few questions for you if you don't mind going to my thread.

Sorry to t/j your post wildhorses.

Oh, BR, thank you for that insightful post and taking the time to do so.

Your post made me think a great deal. While I see alot of those things are true....I don't know how to change them and how not get bothered by certain things.

I don't think my Plan B said that I may contact him but he cannot contact me. The contact has been because of DDs. Custody was not firm because there was no legal decision. I refused to agree that DDs being around Bab's was ok and I fought this long and hard....in the only way I knew how. I am sure that this was taken as being controlling. Because I did not want my children around his mistress.

How do I go back to Plan A without making it look like I don't stand by what I say? By going back to Plan A, I don't think I could ever do a Plan B....he would really not respect it then.



This is true...he was trying to cooperate and expressing doubt. But then he went home to her. Those talks in December drained me. Terribly, BR. I was physically sick again and just mentally beat. I had to go to Plan B to save myself at that point. I could not continue to have contact with him that would take so much out of me.

I felt him questioning what he was doing...and making the decision again and again to go back to her. I had to get out of that.



It is not conjecture on my part that she tells him what to do. DDs have said that she quite unkindly demands that he does certain things at certain times.

As for as household things are concerned. I didn't care how he did it just that it was done. My problem, that I will have to admit, is it was not done on my timeline. When I ask nicely for him to take the garbage out, it would be nice if he would do it that day or at the very least the next day.....on the third day, I'd do it myself. And yes, I would be irritated and I'm sure he knew it. Although I did not say to him that I was irritated, I would just do it myself. Then he'd say "well, I was going to"

Regarding his work, he would ASK me to help him. There were many times I did not want to (he had a habit of watching TV until 11pm and than wanting to get his work done) because I was too tired. I would do it anyway because it pleased him.

There were many times when he would ask me to come in to the office if they were short someone and help him. I did so without question. For him.....there was no pay involved, but it made his day easier and he wouldn't have to spend such long hours there. I believe I honestly helped him with this, BR. I didn't tell him how to do it because I had no idea how to do it, I just took his direction.



I don't believe this portion is true. Putting it in the context of the conversation we were having at the time, I think he said it specifically to hurt me. Just like the "I will love her forever" comments.



I think this is true for alot of things. The most probably being about DDs. But in my own defense, it never seemed as though he wanted to and when I'd ask for him to do things, I got the huffy attitude like I was putting him out by asking for his help.

How do you get around that? I'd probably ask more if I didn't get the pi$$y attitude when I did.



I KNOW he isn't incompetent. But I do think he is lazy at times. Of course, I think I am lazy sometimes too. It just seemed he was spending so much time in the recliner staring at the TV that NOTHING was getting done except for his work at the office.

DDs and I would try to engage him and get him to do things with us. We got the "maybe later", "we'll see", "I don't want to". So we all stopped asking. DDs got tired of the brush off and so did I.

I don't think I got more dictating and controlling at that point, I think the family just left him to himself. It didn't seem that he wanted to be with us so we did our own thing. He was always welcome, we would have LOVED him to be with us. We just couldn't take the rejection any more.

There were times DDs wanted to go do something and I'd tell them to go ask Dad. They'd say "he'll just say maybe later". Sometimes we'd sit around and wait and "later" would never come.



This is true. Because he was ALWAYS with Bab's. I can see his frustration too, but where could I have compromised and not had them around Bab's MORE?

I want H in DDs lives, D or not. I know he will always be their Dad.

I wish you could see what has happened as a whole and not just read what I've posted on days of frustration.



I see your point, but I still disagree with this. DDs do not have that much that I can discipline them with. DD12 knew the consequence was going to be that her phone would be taken...and her mouth kept running.

I think the phones were a part of the control on his side. He always had access to them. He could call the land line or my cell phone. He did this prior to the cell phones. I didn't answer when he called, I handed the phones to DDs. If DDs were not with me, I did not answer.

I see that as WH trying to dictate at least a piece of what is going on in "my" house. That I would have no say over.

He still spoke with her even while she was grounded from teh cell phone. He used the land line or she would talk to him with DD13's phone. I took away the "right" to talk to her friends every second of the day.

She learned...I haven't had to take it away since then. Basketball camp was off the table for awhile, but she earned that back.



No, I'm not in it to be RIGHT. But I'd like to at least be UNDERSTOOD.

I'm sure he wanted to be understood, too. But he never seemed to talk about things enough to be understood. He just says he doesn't agree. Well, fine, don't agree but WHY don't you agree? Then we can possibly come to a compromise.



I think at the end, he did feel this way. I feel that he could have had a say and chose not to.

I remember a few specific occassions just prior to the A where I reached out to him, very concerned on where it seemed we were headed.

He was standing in the kitchen facing the stove (he did most of the cooking), I was in the kitchen getting other things ready for the meal. Something just felt "off", more so than normal. I walked up behind him, put my arms around him from behind and asked "are you ok?" He said quietly "yeah, I'm fine". I said "You've seemed kind of down lately and I'v worried about you" He said again quietly that no, he was fine and I didn't need to worry about him. I said ok and I love you. Got the "I love you, too" back but he didn't look at me.

There was an email exchange along the same lines. We had back and forthed a little bit about plans for the night with DDs, dinner etc. When we were done, I sent an email simply asking "are you ok". He wrote back "I'm fine". I again said he seemed down the last few days and I was worried about him. Nothing back from him.




I felt if I called him back with the info THAT would be showing that I felt him incompetant. That he couldn't get the information on his own. I KNOW that is not true, he could get the information.

I'll admit to analyzing him, but it is so I can UNDERSTAND him. I can't understand what I don't think about. I am trying to look at it from his side....it's the only way I'm going to learn what HE needs or what HE sees when I do things. You're right, I'm not in his head, but for a lot of years I REALLY understood this man. He told me so on numerous occassions. Where we really got disconnected, I don't know.




He is trying NOW. He asks me, BR, I think because it is EASIER for him. He didn't know that I was bothered that he didn't show on Monday to DD12 games, I didn't say a word to him about it. Leaving his R with his DDs to him. I didn't say a word to him about missing her awards ceremony either. Again, leaving his R with his DDs to him.

Why do you believe I get mad when he doesn't do what I think he should do? Honestly, I'd like to know, BR. I think he believes this same thing. I'm don't get mad about, I get disappointed. Sometimes VERY disappointed and that is a HURT not an ANGER.

When he wouldn't do things with DDs and I, I was incredibly hurt. Not angry, just really really hurt. I wanted him there, DDs wanted him there. He didn't want to be with us.



I see this, too. I do not want to be USED. I'd like for the information to go both ways in regards to DDs. Which it did this last week....he got the final game and award schedule and had DD13 call me with it.

It always felt so one-sided. I really appreciated that he did this...and I told him so - directly.



I think it has alot to do with it. By not showing up to DD12 games, I think that is showing her it wasn't as important as whatever else I was doing.

She has said this about WH when she finds out (not from me) what he was doing instead of going to her games. She has specifically said "that must have been more important than my game".

I do not want to let either one of my DDs down. I want them to know if it is at all humanly possible, I will be there. I will NEVER leave them and what they do is important to me.

If it is not possible to be there for them. I will discuss it with them and tell them why.



I agree. But I'm concerned about being used in this way.



DD13 doesn't really care when games are, she'd rather not go. There are two a day and it is HOT, HOT, HOT in those gyms, seating is uncomfortable. She only called because WH asked her to.

My conversation with her about this was good. I think she initially felt in the middle but when she found out I just didn't have the information yet, she was ok relaying that.

I could have called back and offered it and I considered that as it would be a nice thing to do. But I'm really trying to stick with the Plans here, even if it doesn't appear so.

I felt by calling back and providing the information I was enabling his current behavior of making no effort.

He ended up getting the schedule himself, in more than enough time to be at the games on the first day. He chose not to. Yes, his choice.

My frustration with this is that I get the fallout from DDs when they are disappointed and frustrated. He does not get it from them. They are keeping the peace with him. My guess is so he does not withdraw from them again like he did during the beginning of the A. I get the tears, the anger, smart mouth, whatever way they chose to express their feelings. Because I'm safe. And I'm willing to take that on for them, I just get frustrated and come here to vent.

So, really part of it is about me. I wish they would share with him what they are feeling. He's asked...DD13 shared some and then he has come down hard on her. DD12 was there and heard it all. DD13 doesn't see him as safe and won't share anymore. DD12 saw it all and may think the same way. She hasn't said, but she hasn't shared with him either.

They won't even ask him if they need something. Things for school, socks, whatever. I asked DD13 why they won't ask him, that they can't really be upset with him because they THINK he'll refuse when they haven't even asked.

DD13 says he just makes them uncomfortable. That I'm easier and that if I can't get them what they need, I don't make her feel like it is her fault.


Here are my thougts about this week, let me know what you all think, please.

DD13 has volleyball camp. It is not nearly as intense as basketball camp (although held at the same college). We will only need to attend a final game on Thursday. sShe is not staying on campus overnight and I will need to pick her up at 9pm each night.

WH has DD12 today and our normal drop off time is
8pm. I'm considering sending WH an email asking him if he would like to switch our normal transfer to 9pm (giving him an extra hour) and we can meet at the college where DD13 is. I've already talked to DD12 and she is okay with this.

DD13 has barrel racing practice on Wednesday but will be in the middle of camp. I'd like her to miss as little of camp as possible but still meet her commitment for barrel racing. My thought is to ask WH to pick DD13 up at camp and bring her to the barrel race. I will pick up her horse and have her all ready to run (saddled, warmed up, etc), so DD13 can do a little warm up on her own and then be ready to run. WH could then take her back to camp and I will take care of the horse, then pick up DD13 after camp.

This could be done a different way. I could pick up the horse, pick up DD13, she could do everything she needs to do for barrel racing, then I could take her back to camp, take care of the horse, then pick DD13 up after camp.

This would take a little more time and DD13 would miss a little more camp but it could be done.

My concern is by happily co-parenting, he is going to think that "ah, see D won't be so bad. See how well we can get along once Fox does it like she should"

Thank you, BR, for that long, thoughtful post. It was EXTEMELY helpful.

I see alot of things NOW but what can I do about them? At the beginning of this, I would have changed myself into a different person just to please him. That would not have been good either. Somehow we need to find a balance.

Fox

WH provided me with an opportunity to maybe make amends for last week. He sent this email this morning:



In the spirit of co-parenting here is what I sent back:



This is how we used to converse by email as H and W. This is not a Plan B email back to him....it's more of how I used to interact with him. It does stick to my guidelines of only talking via email.

Thoughts?

Fox

wild ~ I'll respond in more depth later. In the meantime...

I think both of these old threads of mine might help you with your thought process:

Detachment with Love

and...

Do you want to be RIGHT - or do you want to be MARRIED?

Thanks, BR, I'll check those links out.

Meanwhile...here is WH response to my request for help.