Isn't this covered under Radical Honesty? I mean "Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know" seems pretty clear, to me.

Of course I haven't made a career out of lying...
QUOTE:
"Without honesty, the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in your marriage cannot be made. Without honesty, your best efforts to resolve conflicts will be wasted because you will not understand each other well enough to find mutually acceptable solutions."

There may be those that want to know the specific details of the"what was done" but those people may have another issue to deal with. For my part, if I ask a question, it is because I think the answer will be of benefit...to me, her, us...

What a BS needs to know is up to the BS, but I would say don't ask questions you don't really want to know the answer to. Think about what the answer will give you that you don't already have, in the way of information, closure, etc.

If you ask a question and the answer is "X" and your course of action is "Z", but if the answer is "Y" and you course of action is still "Z"...Why ask the question?

Mark

Let's not make this quite so simplistic by saying we should be absolutely honest at all times. There are diplomatic ways of answering a question without causing further damage that don't involve lying.

If one of my mentally handicapped students asks me, "How come I'm not as smart as Billy?" I don't answer by saying, "According to your test results you have an IQ of 70 so your ability to learn is much less than Billy's." Instead I might say, "We all have different abilities. There are some things Billy can do better than you and there are some things you can do better than Billy." Then I would give an example. I'm not lying to him, but I'm also not feeding him the bald-faced truth that would be more harmful than helpful.

When someone says, "How do you like my new dress?" Do you tell them what you really think? Do you say, "It makes you look fat." No. You come up with some diplomatic way of answering the question that avoids offending them but isn't an outright lie.

You could probably try living your life being brutally honest at all times, but I'll bet you wouldn't have many friends.

But as I said, before you start quoting radical honesty, etc., find out what Dr. Harley will say on answering the specific questions Dr. Gunzburg mentions above.

I have found the Harley's to be much less inflexible on their views than some here would like you to believe.

Hiker, I misread and thought you were talking about Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley, which is why I wrongly corrected myself. Dr. Harley NEVER says anywhere, that I can find, that certain details should be withheld in the "best interest" of the BS. In all my years of being here, reading and listening to his radio show, I have never heard that. Rather, I have heard recommendations for complete and total RADICAL honesty.

As a BS, if my WS told me it was in my "best interest" to not be told something, there would be a HUGE problem because he is clearly NOT QUALIFIED to adjudge what is in my best interest or not. Refusing to be honest would be a great impediment to rebuilding trust and would stop me from getting what I NEED to recover. The only person QUALIFIED to determine what level of detail I can handle is ME.

No one BUT ME. BIG GIRL that I am.

And most certainly NOT a wayward spouse. If a BS makes a mistake and bites off more than he can chew, he is a big enough boy to handle that on his own.

I do agree very much with your suggestion that every BS should be very careful about what questions they do ask, because the answers might haunt them for years, as you suggested. No doubt that should be brought about.

Here is what Dr. Willard Harley says about honesty, and nowhere does he say to withhold details the WS feels are too damaging:
1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

From:

Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

I know as a FWW that I had huge fears in telling my H details, I mean how do you tell the person you love and hurt what you did with another man? I had exactly the fears you write about.
So you just be truthful and straight forward. I admit to trying to avoid it time after time, & that finally got to the point that my h basically gave me an ultimatium. That was potentially worse than the actual things he wanted to know in our recovery.
I was stupid with fear.

Tell him but perhaps think through the words you use. Many times his imagination may be worse than what ocurred. It actually was in my case to my H but funny enough not to me. I was just too ashamed and frightened of loosing him to tell him. He was insulted that I wouldn't.
But the gang here 4x2'd me and said well you are about to loose him but do you want him back? FEAR is the thing to get over.

Whatever you do DON'T insult him with half answers, if he asks specifics then take a deep breath and tell him. Will he get angry? I would expect it.
Will he get sad? I'd bet on it.
Will he be able to work through it? Most likely and if he can it will put some ghosts to rest finally. The what ifs must be so terrible for a BS to handle.
He may also ask the same questions over and over as my H did. Why? he lost trust in you and wants to be certain you told him the truth, so tell it the first time.
And yes it was a Sh*tty experience for both of us and I like you caused it. But its got to be done if he wants to know or recovery will not happen, that simple.

Time to be brave and risk it.

Mel,

I am not disagreeing with your contention that honesty is necessary for recovery or for the great marital relationship we all want.

What I am saying is this:

1. A betrayed spouse needs to be very cautious about what they ask because the answers could well be more damaging than not knowing, particularly when it involves things about him/herself that cannot be changed.

2. There are ways of answering very specific, sensitive questions honestly without inflicting more damage to the betrayed spouse's ego. Here is an example, and I dare say I'm being pretty tame even with the brutally honest answer because it could get much, much worse as far as ego damage goes.

Question: Was the sex better with her than with me?

Answer: In some ways.

Question: In what ways?

Brutally honest answer: Well, first off she is drop-dead gorgeous. You know she's a model, right? She has a flawless complexion -- there's just something about that perfectly smooth skin that turns me on. [This said while knowing full well the wife has acne scars from her youth.] She has a fabulous body and she knows how to use it.

Diplomatic but honest answer: It was just different. There were things about it that were very good, just as there are things about our lovemaking that are very good. Maybe I could show you some things that I found I like and we could explore a little more, if you want to.

Can anyone tell me how giving the brutally honest answer will benefit the betrayed spouse? Or does everyone just want to pat themselves on the back for their honesty, no matter what the cost to someone else's self-esteem?

Hiker, I agree with you that sensitivity should be used and have never argued otherwise. The biggest mistake a WS could make is to say something like: "I refuse to answer that because it will hurt you." They need to be honest in a sensitive, diplomatic manner and answer EVERYTHING the BS asks.


My husband would get a fist in the face if he ever suggested that he could show me some new techniques he learned in the pig pen in a filthy affair. But, I do get your point! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hiker, are you a WS or a BS? Are you in recovery?

If this had been my experience when asking questions about the affair, my H & I would both be single right now!

Of course tact would be a given for any answer but the need for TOTAL honesty is crucial.

Yes, I can imagine most folks would probably be irritated by such a comment.

But on a more serious note, I would not want to leave any stone unturned in an effort to please my wife sexually, even if it was something she discovered with someone else. I would not want her to think, "this is something about my affair partner that I miss."

Precisely. Well put.

The Betrayed Spouse's imagination is active and full of imaginged hurt.

Better to have the facts, as cold and hard as they may be, then imagined details.

I want my wife to tell me the full and true answer to everything I ask.

As a BS, and after looking at the MB principles in the days following d-day, I had lots of questions for my FWS. After a few honest answers were given I decided to call it a day as the images were becoming more intense. I was still in a very emotional state for some time, but have been reading several books on infidelity, and found that one thing mentioned was not to dwell on the details of the affair, but to concentrate on working on rebuilding the marriage. I decided then that I would not ask any more questions as it was doing me no good whatsoever. As soon as I think of something to ask, I then ask myself how is the answer going to help recovery. If it isn't then it isn't asked. I haven't asked anything for some time now.

Mel,

I am a betrayed spouse, not in recovery. Affair still going strong now for 1 1/2 years; discovery 9 months ago. Finally threw in the towel and recently filed for divorce.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Ummmm,,nahhhhhhhhh,,I don't think soooooo....... : <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Artor,

That's great. But not everyone feels the same way, and some think they want the answers but are sorry they got them.

I know I've read a case history or two in the past nine months where some BS dropped out of recovery because they couldn't shake certain images; images conjured up by details given to them by the WS. Seems like they were both men.

I fully agree that the wayward spouse has the obligation to answer any question asked if they want the betrayed spouse to heal.

Now, I don't advise the betrayed spouse to enter a question and answer session haphazardly or without preparation.

I think the solid way to go about it is to have you spouse list the questions -- all of them -- good and bad.

Then put them away for a day or two.

Then read them over. The betrayed spouse should be able to definitely identify what the answer to each question will add to their healing.


Good reasons:

• "It will help me understand the level of emotion attachment you felt."
• "It will help me cope with trigger X or Y better."
• "I will help me understand what in our marriage was lacking."

Bad reasons to ask a question:

• "I was just curious."
• "Because I want to know."

I am really surprised that you think it is a good idea to use a technique in your marriage that you learned in a filthy affair. That would be bringing filthiness in my marriage and would be a grievous insult to me. It would imply that the OW was a better lay than me. Doing something like this would cause enormous damage. I am really surprised you don't understand how damaging this is. This is why I asked you if you were a WS.

Look....I am a strong advocate for openess and honesty regarding disclosure....

in my own case....I found out about a PA as my EXwife and I tried to reconcile after a divorce....and after such proceedings one is naturally cautious so she was anything BUT open with me. By not being open with me she dang near lost me in the process. I needed to understand the entire process and each and every "d-day" was more horrible than the last...and is there a part of me that doesn't feel my questions were answered? Deep down, yes...

The questions I had revolved around timing, events, identity, places, etc. All the gory details...I could care less...cause reality is she did come back to me...

however as I tried to "resolve" the realities they would change and that I could not take...regardless of what a WS thinks the BS begins to think "HOW COULD I MISS THIS??"!!!

So....read my story...see how disclosure...and lack of it almost derailed everything...

Another special thanks to Mel for "getting up in my face" many times about what my boundaries are....

Hiker--

I've said in other posts that I have two lists of questions.

Ones I will ask and have definite reasons for asking.

Ones I won't ask because I don't believe they are healty questions to ask.

I move questions between lists as I review the list. I check off questions my wife has answered.

I will never show my wife the list of questions I won't ask.

The reason is that if she is only willing to answer some of them and not others, then I will obsess over "WHY" she didn't answer the others. "What was so bad about the truthful answer to THAT question?"

I have decided and determined to give some of the questions over to God. I will never ask them. But if I decided that some of them were important, I want my wife to be direct and truthful -- not make the decision for me as to my need to hear the answer.

She does not get that right.

Exactamundo!

b3,

I am a BS. I want to know the details because:

The fear that OW was a better lay than I am.
The fear that OW made him feel better about himself than I do.
The fear he liked her more than he likes me.
The fear that OW was sexier than I am.
I think he wanted out of our marriage.
I need to know what furniture to burn.
I need to know where it is safe to sleep and eat in my house.
I need to know what I am lacking in meeting his needs.
I need to know what I did to contribute to his desire to go outside the marriage.
I need to know what to do to improve myself.
I need to know why he never talked to me about the problems he perceived in the marriage.

There are lots more reasons for the questions. Those are just a few, off the top of my head. Here's the problem with his not answering - I am over a year past d-day. Yesterday, by accident, I found out that I need to burn a chair and a table. HE was not the source of the information........

The OW was.

Now, tell me - where do you want him to get his information? And how long is he expected to wait for it? Do I think he has a right to ask you whatever he wants? You bet your sweet a$$ I do. Come over for the bonfire.

My recovery? It started over yesterday.

Schoolbus