Calm down. Check my signature to see how many times my WW broke NC. Each time I confronted her and LBed slightly. But I clearly defined my boundaries. It usually took me a few days to get over the breach of NC, but then things would get even better than they were before. Put GPS on her car, and monitor her emails and phone calls. This is how you ensure NC. After a few breaches of NC she'll realize that you aren't going to tolerate it. This is one of the hardest things to do. My WW (and it sounds like your too) doesn't realize that she can't go from friends to lovers back to friends again. It pisses her off that I am dictating who her friends are. Well, we know better, so we need to ensure NC for them. These are the tough times for a BS, but eventually she will stop trying to contact OW once she is through withdrawal.

If you had an actual agreement for NC in place and a recovery plan then my advise would be to plan B [as this would fall into the category of false recovery].

Eventually she is going to just have to decide whether she is willing to accomodate your spiffy new marriage model or not.

d01...Knock it off with the Love Busters. You are at a critical point here, and you are not presenting yourself as a person with whom it is safe to talk with. This is part of Plan A...eliminate love busters.

Why would she want to return to a man who cannot keep his temper?

You KNOW she is a WS. What do they do? They lie. They lie by ommission or comission. They don't understand truth. Facts mean nothing to them. They will piss you off just because they are FOGGED. They will intentionally piss you off to make you out to be the "BAD" husband, which helped them justify having the affair.

A slip or two along the way is reasonable to expect. A steady diet of love busting will thwart ALL of your efforts to get her into, and through Withdrawal.

One of you has to be smart, strong and under control. Your W is not going to step up and assume that role. It's entirely up to you. No, it's not fair, but that's the way it is.

False recoveries and continued contact a few times is the norm. Few BS are able to get the faucet shut off at one try. Regroup. Dust yourself off, and renew your efforts. But from here on out, you know the score...she'll behave in ways that will drive you competely crazy, but you will keep your cool, show your strength and maintain dignity througout the process.

We've been through this and know how maddening it can be. My temper was one of my biggest faults, and biggest enemy in trying to get to recovery. But I changed, gained control, learned how to avoid the lovebusting and rather give my input while in full control. You can too.

Best wishes,
SD

Hi, just read your post and have been following your thread.

I am not a veteran here by any means but in my experience, it seems that NC is one of the biggest challenges that WS deal with. My WH is still tallking with OW for many of the same reasons your WS gave. It kills me everytime, like Jim says but you just have to give yourself a few days.

SD is right. They are WS and this is what they do. They lie. Just accept that it will happen.

I too have a temper and have tried to concentrate on "acting not reacting". I've found this helpful. You also might want to try simply leaving the house when you feel your anger rising to that level again. You will calm down and then be able to better deal with the situation then.

Just a thought,

Freya

Today is the first time in months that I'm in the office before everyone else, at least that's one advantage of living in a hostile home! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Deep breath, deep breath...

I have not spoken a word to her since last night, leaving the house in silence this morning (she was already awake). She said something about not feeling well, and I just managed to bite my tongue before I could say something like "guess when the soul is rotten the body will follow" or something along those lines.

I am still angry, very much so. I thank you all for the advise you have given. But at this point I don't know if I want to continue this charade of pretending that I love her when behind those eyes of her are deceit and probably a healthy measure of hatred for me.

You know? She was more worried about what else I was going to do to destroy her career or reputation than about anything else. I wanted to come online to post and she thought I was going to send out nasty emails, or scheme on more exposure to ruin her. And this time I just told her to wait and find out. She thinks I will sabotage her new job offer, and/or her previous company by telling my friends in industry to buy from another supplier. And I didn't do anything to change that misconception.

When trying to justify her "just talking" to the OW, she mentioned that even her mother had told her that I was "ridiculous" to expect that she should not talk to the OW. I was calm by this point and answered her "OK, if its OK to just talk, then would she or her mother get upset if her father were to occassionally call his OW, just to see how she's doing?" Her mother says I'm ridiculous for wanting NC between my WS and the OW, but doesn't think the same applies to her and her husband's OW. What hypocrisy! I said all this to her and she shut up about it being "just talking". I asked her again, would SHE mind if her father called the OW and she said of course she would but kept silent when I asked her why her father's case and ours were different.

I went on to mention that throughout it all, my mother had never been judgmental on her or me, just wanting both of us to work things out. Her mother on the other hand, told her to decide if she wanted to work on the marriage, but also told her things like it was not the end of the world if we divorced or that she didn't want her poor daughter to be driven to do something stupid (like suicide) out of depression etc. WS replied that my mother was wonderful, and she sometimes think she was together with me this long because my family was so wonderful (they all love her a lot).

She did say she was sorry about talking to the OW and for lying to me, just as an afterthought, with zero remorse. Of course, expecting anything resembling humanity or morals from her is pretty impossible at this point.

Give myself a few days to calm down. Yes, I will follow the advise you guys have given me as you guys have my interest at heart, which is more than I can say about my WIFE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Should I just tell her I need a few days to think and that she could do whatever she wants, I don't care? Or tell her I need a few days to think and leave out the second part? Or just continue on in silence?

How do I even make a comeback to say I want to work on it somemore after this episode? (Assuming I still want to after I have a few days to cool off). Her friends will be telling her to leave and such, cause she's only told them lies about what has happened, she doesn't deny it.

don't make a lifetimes decision without careful consideration

you have plenty of time to leave her if it turns out that is what is best

calm deep breaths

take care of yourself

Pep

What I did was say that it hurt me everytime she called OM, I didn't want or deserve to be hurt anymore, and I wasn't going to allow it to happen.

I would then drop it and go back to meeting her ENs. Until you decide for sure that you no longer want to be married anymore you should still be working to save the M.

PS



I vote friendly silence, not icy silence

can you muster that?

Pep

First, apologize for losing your cool.

Second, tell her that it causes you great pain when she talks to the OM.

Third, casual, friendly existance, while making every attempt to establish a sense of normalcy in your day to day living.

Nothing is going to make this go any faster for you. It takes the time it takes. Withdrawal will last from 6 weeks to 6 months. Pace yourself. Accept that this is a long drawn out process that required immense amount of effort and resolve.

You will recieve little in positive feedback until she's through withdrawal. Even then, what you get will be dribs and drabs. This whole commitment calls for unconditional love. How much do you love your wife?

Best wishes,
SD

You've only been married a couple of years, you have no children, and your WW has had an A w/ a WOMAN!

I think you should seriously think about cutting your losses.

Recovery is HARD. It's gonna take everything you've got and then some.

~ Marsh

I texted her saying that I will need a few days to calm down before talking to her again. And I also asked how she was feeling.

Her reply was "OK...I'm sorry. Got gastric pain, but will pop into office later."


I don't know anymore. And that's what scares me.

The problem with NC is this. Even if she leaves the company, she will be working nearby in an almost-competitor company. They can still see each other easily. How do I not drive myself crazy always wondering if she's going behind my back again?

[quote[
I vote friendly silence, not icy silence

can you muster that?[/quote]

Yep. I'll just pretend we're roomates or something. Do my own thing, and not care what she does? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jim, with NC broken thrice already for you, and very recently too, what's keeping you from leaving? I'm not trying to give advise or anything, but I would like to know what keeps you going at your marriage when she keeps going back to her OM? Maybe I can relate to some of it and give myself the strength to do what you're doing.

Thanks Marsh. I AM seriously considering that at this juncture.

Well, luckily the OM was already planning on moving 1000 mi away by the time the A started. He left during the A, but she kept calling him all the time (that is how I figured out D-day). I tapped phone conversations where she was talking about finding a job there and going to be with him.

That is where I cut her off financially. It was going to take her a while to find a job, she didn't have access to enough money to fight a contested divorce, and she was going to have to take a major cut in her standard of living. Add onto that everyone would know why she left and didn't support her (I exposed), and she would not be welcome around OM's family (I talked to them). I don't think she ever wanted more than friendship from him, but he was the only person she could talk to (after everyone knew) and he wanted more. She felt like she had to give him more to maintain that emotional comfort that he gave her (of course he gave it to her so he could coerce sex out of her). At least during our last fight she said that she doesn't like him or what he did anymore, but just felt like she owed him an explanation as to why she wasn't going to contact him anymore.

Why am I still trying? That is a good question. I guess a couple reasons. First of all, we have had problems for a while, but I went about trying to get them fixed the wrong way (LBs), and I realize that I had a problem with my temper. Secondly, I feel that I made a commitment to be with her for better or for worse, and I need to stick by that commitment. I feel like I at least owe it a try with the new improved me to see if things will get better. Thirdly, we once were very much in love. If we can get back that love, it would be worth every minute of heartache that I endured. I realize it is going to be tough for a while, but I guess I put it in perspective and try and see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks Jim for sharing that. Unlike in your case, we live in a small city. OW lives about 10 minutes drive away, we (me, WS and OW) work within a 10 minutes radius of each other, and to top it all, OW and WS are doing sales in the industry. Physical separation by thousands of miles is not possible as in your case, so NC can only be enforced if

a. Either party leaves the country (which is not possible)
b. Either party is dead (just a pun, sorry) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> or
c. Either party developes conscience and morals and really breaks it off, or something happens btw them that makes them hat each other

Other than that, I don't see a way I can ensure NC, whether or not WS leaves the job or not.


She is an independant career woman, and earns more than I do (not by much, but if I can survive alone financially, she definitely can also). We will both suffer a drop in our standard of living by not having our bills divided by half, but thats about it. Exposure-wise, parents on both sides know about the A, and both sides do not approve of it (if she was telling the truth about OW telling how her father hit her). She kept saying last night that they both knows it will never go on, but we all know that even though they say it, they still do it. They lie to themselves.

In my anger last night, I told her that she was worse than a prostitute. They at least acknowledge what they are, but she keeps denying herself the truth.


I identify with all three reasons you've put forward. Very much so.

My wife is now leaning towards a divorce, letting her anger at the exposure fuel her decision. Commbined with the re-establishment of contact with OW, it will not be easy or it may not even be possible to establish NC. What else can you do when she tells you a week ago that she now believes NC is essential for her to move on, why the A cannot go on, but to keep giving so many damned EXCUSES to justify it when she talks to her again? I mean, I would not have reacted that way, or have been so pissed off if she had come clean and told me straight out that they talked because she needed to hear what happened to the OW, or that she missed talking to her etc. At least I would have respected her honesty. But to LIE and LIE about it and to then justify it TO ME of all people -well that really set me off. On top of that she kept dropping hints about divorce and such, even when I took her out for a nice expensive dinner. ZERO graditude I can take, but to throw my attempts at being nice and supportive into my face and being smug about it...ARRRGH!

Are ALL WS's like that?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hi Jim,

I just spent 1/2 my working day reading through your thread -all 26 pages of it! Man, my productivity this week will take a hit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One question:

1. I am less angry now than I was before, reading your thread helps and I guess that finding out that 'closure contact' is common also helps me to deal with it better.

If I do decide to toughen up and work the marriage, do I continue trying to meet her EN (conversation, affection) and at the same time not talk about the R, M or OW? Unlike your case, I don't pay for her phone bills, she drives the car (I walk to work which is 10 minutes away) so I have no way to determining her 'status' with the OW other than catching her at a lie or on SMS (which will be very hard now that I've done it twice). She goes out to the gym with her stupid friend about 2-3 times a week, which I don't go along (nor does she want me along), and I've been staying at home for weeks cause I never want to be out in case she has no plans and feel like contacting or meeting the OW.

Its crazy and I know it. I just can't make myself do my own thing cause at the back of my mind I'm always thinking -if I'm here, what is SHE up to?

Its sad. I haven't gone to the gym, haven't hung out with my friends and I haven't even been doing much work lately. I really don't know if I can take 1-2 years for this to be over and for her to recover.

Why haven't you started working with Steve Harley yet?

edit to add:

If you think you are tired from trying to recover your marriage, try continuing to love bust and lose your temper and express your frustrations and anger at and around your wife and see how exhausted you get in divorce court!

Managing your emotions is much less fatiguing than trying to repair the damage from not managing them.

Hi KA,

I don't live in the US and cannot afford the call sessions with Dr. Harley, much as I would like to. I think the advise given from the boards from you guys have been invaluable. We have arranged to see a MC in early Feb, if we last that long.

In this part of the world, I'm not sure if the courts recognize extramarital same-sex relationships as infidelity/adultery. Perhaps its time to give my SIL who is a lawyer to at least clarify that part.

I totally understand the managing my emotions part. I have a bad temper which I need to work on. I am making progress. I guess I didn't expect a false recovery, or even knew what 'closure contact' was until after last night so I wasn't prepared for it. But I will be prepared for the next one.

I just have to get over this "its over" feeling that my brain is telling me.

Small update for the day: WS came home after gym with her friend and found that I had boltd the door. I didn't even remember doing it, and I have never done it before while she was not home yet. Really! But she thinks I was trying to lock her out...lol

Anyway, we didn't speak beyond her "Are you trying to lock me out?" and my "Didn't realize I had done it, sorry". I went to bed early, she was still up doing something or the other, and I woke up early this morning and went to the office gym while she was still asleep leaving her a note saying that I'll see her tonight for dinner, if she didn't have any plans.

I've calmed down sufficiently and the more my anger fades, the more I'm leaning towards saving this marriage. How do I get her to break all contact with the OW? Should I tell her to REALLY take a month off, go back to her parent's place for a month to distance herself? And would I need to join her if that was the case? Cause I don't think I can take a month of unpaid leave and go off just like that, but I can head back during the weekends. But she'll never buy into that idea.

She also can't change her old mobile number cause her potential employer wants her to retain it. Help me out guys, how do I enforce NC in my case?

what is your boundary in regards to this issue?

not what you've said

but what you will do and when you will do it

???

think about it

Pep

Her provider should be able to block the OW's incoming number, or so I've been led to believe. I'm no gadget guy, so check on that.

One other thing that helped me was to train myself to not react to things my WW would do or say "the way I used to".

I just worked really hard on breaking old patterns that had developed in our relationship, so of which were reactive and caustic, and change them into friendlier responses that would encourage neutral or funny conversation. I don't know that I've explained that very well, but consider it like a 180 change in my conversation "skills".

When she'd come in and shoot off something caustic, I'd do everything I could to turn it around and either make it funny, or neutralize the sting.

Regarding their contact in the "industry", that' a toughie. If they can break contact long enough for her to get through withdrawal, your WW may come to have negative feelings for the OW. YOu may have to practice some responses to respond to your WW when she "defends" her need to remain "friends".

I hope someone else enters in with some fresh ideas.

SD