Dr. Harley said he would talk to Jim during the break and let us know what they concluded...here's what he said when he came back...he never really addressed Jim's issue...that was disappointing...

Why resist a change that would inevitably make both marriage partners happier. But people resist it because they don't think they should have to change because their partner married them the way that they were. However, change is required in order to have a great marriage.

that was it...

You pretty much summed it up in my opinion.

The important parts I think where the last 2 sentances and the break...

"If you were to just let go of her, she may just come back because it is the logical thing to do"

and the question i must ask myself....
If this is her "true personality type " is she is the person you want to be with for the rest of your life.

Well the answer #1 aggreeing to give her the D is as letting go as I know how to do. She has long ago quit trying.

Answer #2 If this is her "True self shinning through"
would she be the woman I would want to spend the rest of my life with... That answer is No... While I do love her, I do not like the selfish self centered person she has become this past year

Additionally durining the break DR. H called her a survivor, a chemelion... and with the M she got comfortable and showed her true self...

so i guess now time will tell...
she actually said today it was my fault she was so busy because i turned off her cell phone (made he get her own plan) and wouldn't pay her car insurance... Made it wound like it was my fault and that not paying for her forced her to work and so she couldn't see me... Dang I though she moved out and didn't want anything of mine... Did I miss something? Dahhhhh

She saw plan A as controling and minulitive... But yes she knows I would have taken her back providing we recovered the M...

I am skipping plan B and heading stright for plan D The saftey net she may have thought was there has evaporated... She wants to be free, I will set her free... And yes it appears she is starting to feel the sting of loosing her main source of fininacal stability... you sleep with a dog don't be suprised if you get flees...

On top of that I am now playing hardball, I am taking care of Jim and frankly enjoying doing so... I sold the mini-van today and got JIM a 07 Mustang convertable (Pics of it are on my myspace page) then to get the point accross that her saftey net is rapidly disappearing I went over to her Appt. and showed it off... She always said she missed the "indepandant redneck" I used to be. Well today she saw him in rare form... I asked her if tommrow (when we discuss the D settlement) if she would like to go for a ride <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am proceeding on with my life as if she won't be in it... If she wants this M and this Man she need to fight for it and chase me. Cuz this rebel boy is heading for the door...

Oh call me Jim,,,I don't care if she reads this and knows who I am anymore.

She stopped by today to talk about an amacable D settlement... it was diffrent... she came in and gave me a kiss, we went through some of her stuff, and sorted for goodwill and what would stay and what would go... She removed more of her stuff but still "forgot some too...

We talked about the D, She didn't seem as much in a rush she said she thought we needed to be seprated for like 6 months before we file... she said i shoudl look into it in the next couple weeks and let her know... It seemed she didn't have the urgency she has had in the past... like she wants the D but isn't in a rush either...

We talked alot very calmly. she siad she was comfortable in the house for the first time.. no tension I could feel at all..

I sat her down briefly and said if I needed to let her go so she could be happy I would, but that I also thought we could make it better then ever if we decided to... I told her I never want to make another selfish demand, disrespectful judgement, ...again, and if i slip up she is to immeadatly let me know so I could make amends and appoligize... She actually seemed to listen.

Later she looked at my myspace page and kissed me again and gave me the "Look" (the good one where the eyes twinkle) I havn't seen that in some time...

I must have been kissed a dozen times today, it almost seemed like the old W was out of the fog for a moment...

I took her for a ride in my new car and then let her drive it, she held my hand and enjoyed the ride, and liked driving the car... she really said it was nice... She said she will see me tuesday at MC...

So heck I don't know. now what...

I am thinking I will drag my feet with the D until she presses me about it... then I go back to plan A... Just a more mellow and less intense version... Also it seems the anti-anxiety meds are finally kicking in and i am relaxing more...

thoughts?

OK Ken - why are you separating if there is hope for your marriage? You would be better living together IMO if there is hope for your marriage.

I think your call is being replayed right now - sure sounds like it to me.

i listened to the call again and i wanted to add

you said that your wife's concerns even before plan A were that you were controlling and disrespectful

the harley's pointed outthat you need to "HEAR" what your wife is saying when she tells you her feelings

and that you need to ask her what things she finds controlling or disrespectful so that you can avoid these things

have you said anything about this to her?

you also said that she isn't opening upduring counseling, maybe she is afraid that your reactions will be judgemental and disrespectful?

have you read the harley's book about love busters?

i ask only because this is my biggest fault and i bought myself the book!

Here is James Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" plan -

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.
If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.
Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.
Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.
Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.
Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.
To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc.
Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!"
This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.
If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."
Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.
"But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure."
It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.
If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.

I would agree however it wasn't my choice it was W chioce to seperate...

I have been trying "hear her" I have been trying very hard... I/we have done the LB worksheet, so yes I do know to some degree what her complaints are... I have the LB book and have read some of it... Will get back into it tommorw...

One problem unmentioned problem I think is my impaitence...
Another was anxiety when it went south all though that seems to be comeing under control with meds...

oh see open up at counsleing with both barrels... the problem is she often won't tell me her feeling at other important time. I do value her opinion, i think some of this is left over baggage from previous marrage.

We also have mis-communictaion issues per the MC, she has been translating Man speak to womman speak and vice versa...

I htink she maybe relaxing a little cus i am detaching and not as hyper-vigilant...

Jim

a bump

Last post... at mc WW said she she is done and wants a D...

I said i don't talk D. and gave her my atty name... I meet with my atty his retainer Tuesday .

Thanks for all the help!

Jim...

single again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Jim,

Take it easy... I know you are hurting right now and you've helped me out a lot lately. I would be more than happy to listen when you want to talk.

Jen

What else is new? It's time to plan B her *ss and have her come crawling back to you. If at that time you want to take her back, that's your choice. Time to get the plan B letter posted on here for us to review.

ken

i'm not saying that your situation is like mine

but it's been 3 years since my H said it was over, he was done, and he wants a divorce

sometimes the WS can't have what they want when they want it! That's what got them into this mess.

the laws in your state may require a waiting period since YOU are not at fault and are not the one wanting the D

and a good lawyer can usually find ways to buy some time

that's what you need right now....some time for reality to hit her

this is not the time to give up...this is the time to plan B

because this lets her see exactly what a D will be like before she actually IS Divorced

it gives her time to "try out" the reality she thinks she wants.....with all of it's consequences

Jim,
I don't know anymore, I am tired of hurting, tired of being played. our MC (Kim) asked her stright up if she wanted to D or to try... she said D, when the MC spoke of the D her face lit up... it was funny she actually said we might be able to "Date" durining the D. The MC was floored and said you will diviorce him and you expect him to go on dates? She said she would recommend against that to Him as it just opens Him up to more pain... She said this guy really loves you but do you "Love him"... it got quite...

I said W I talk marrage here that is what I pay Kim for... I said for D I have an atty and that is what I pay him for.
I asked Kim for a peice of paper jotted down my atty nane and said have yours call mine... I said you can file immeadatly and there is a 120 cooling off period, I said we can be done by June just in time for you to move to Madison with the kids after the school year... I also said you can file, and do your own dirty work, I won't do that for you.
She started to cry and goit up as she left I said I won't call, write, speak, said if she need to talk to me about the D talk to my atty... he handles that.

I don't know if i want a plan B her, if she come crawling back we will see, but i am not holdding my breath, or looking back... time to move on...

If she come back (whitch I doubt) will take some major consessions. I know I can do better... I deserve better.

Jim

I don't want to waste anymore time or money on this woman.
to much hurt to much distrust.

She put me on wavers and I cleared them, I am a free agent. I took my Ring off today (she came not wearing hers) I think the last act I will do is to mail it to her and say so much for promases. I am tried of lies...

Pretty raw right now. I really don't like her very much anymore, I think she just broke the bank....


Jim

Wisconsin is a no fault state, she can file now and then there is a 120 day cooling off period after which it goes on the docket, All indications are it will be uncontested, cut and dry, 99% of the personal property has all ready been relocated, and since we were togeather so short a time period there isn't much to haggle over...

The good news is I have learned so very much about marrage these past few weeks. I learned about what I can do to improve myself, so in the future if there ever is another Mrs, Jim she will get a new and improved Jim,
I will use the tools I have been given early and often (EN,LB Rec questioners) and not make the same mistakes twice...

Jim


The only thing i don't understand is why did she cry?
She finially got what she wanted.

when does the pain stop?

Ok, i don't know what i want anymore... But since i dispise indecision. I have decided when I meet my lawyer tuesday. I will likly retain him if need, then I will do exactly nothing, providing there isn't undue legal risk in my doing so. Then I will wait until WW initates the divorce, and respond... It is cheaper that way in any case, No filing fees, no cost to serve, no cost creating the divorce action...

In the mean time while I wait for WW to serve me divorce papers, If after a peroid I find I am over the WW and she hasn't served me, I will finish it at the time and place of my choosing...

This weekend I will pack her few remaining items out and place them in the garage for storge. I will get a new kitchen table etc...

I am moving forward with my life... If I find someone intresting that i would like to pursue I will... I will do what I want, when I want.

If as some suspect WW will come crawling back, I will cross that bridge when it comes... Personally I don't have any faith this is going to happen. But who know... Then i will have to determaine if I want her back.... As i said the Luv bank is rather overdrawn at the moment... Is this a plan B maybe, minus the letter, I am not expending any more effort on this anymore, it is now her turn to do the heavy lifting if she decides to make the marrage work.

Jim