OK here is the back ground married 11 months, dated 1 year, engaged 3 more years lived togeather 2 more years, married feb last year will be 7 years now in may in a commited releationship.

About 6 weeks a go W dorped bomb "we shouldn't have ggotten married" after we had a fight over money... and has done revised martial/relationship history...

W has admitted she became addicted to an internet game
I had some suspicianms she was flirting in the game for some time, not hard proof... Recnetly was able to confirm she was having an EA for severial months with an other player in the internet game. From what i have learned it started friendly but got more emotuonal in the past 3-4 months.


With the droping of the bomb we started IC both and MC using my theipist... .

My counsler had me tell FIL (WW confidant) and Confromt the OM, then confront WW...

i told her Dad first including showing him the "proof" then emailed and spoke to OM second. OM didn't know ww was married (had 6 kids nor was 44, though she was 25 and single, (this has been verfied by my snooping) OM was really pissed, he has broken contact and appears to be aiding me (forwarding me her emailes etc). our pastor is in the loop as well as is my family...

Following this I confromted WW... was not pretty...
Big fight much denial, just a game bla bla bla...
ended with her saying it is over... to witch i said then get out she said when school is over she will move so i pushed back and said no Now......

Her 2 kids live with us from her 1st marrage....

She appeared to be looking to escape (form phone records (still snooping) , when she told her EX-H she was looking for a place EX-H said in no uncertain terms she splits this marrage he sues for custody.. Kids need stable life etc.

She then reconsidered and stayed...

We did first MC and she was confronted about the PA, didn't acknowlege it... she said she was 50/50 on making it work, i am all in... She has recently shared with me her IC said the ea was unacceptable conduct... though she is spinning a tail with her IC it appears form what she says... fortunatly my IC and hers are colleges and i have autherized full disclosure to WW IC for the "rest of the story" and this is being done...

Been now walking on egg shells for about 6 weeks. Past few days seem to be thawing out alittle... back sleeping in the same bed but Sex is of the table (her choice)

She appears to have tried to reestablish contcat with OM,
2-3 x but it hasn't appearded to be effective, he is telling me and is avioding her like the plauge...

she shows many of the symptoms I read about "withdralw from the affair" angry, sad, etc etc...

I admit i have probaly made some mistakes not meeting her EN and more so with LB, that may have made the EA more likly but won't give her a pass on it...

She did the worksheets, (EA,LB,rec) and i have ordered several books and dvd (still waiting for them)

I am working hard at elimanting the LB and doing better at meeting her needs... and hoping when things settle down she will come back...

Ok folks what have i missed what more do i do..

It looks like you were fortunate to get an OM who was not a scumbag, and refused to be a scumbag when he found out the truth. Don't trust in him, either, but so far it looks as if he has been above-board.

Keep working at what you have been, keep watching her actions, and meet as many of her needs as you can. I am not a withdrawal expert at all, but I do know you will need patience. It looks like you have a start at R, though.

I posted this on another thread, but it is just an example of what can happen when cyber-interaction gets out of hand. Please copy and paste into your browser as the whole address does not show up as a hyperlink.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245222,00.html

neak,

Watching her like a hawk. All evidance from OM indicate he is above board, her wrote a scathing email telling her he wishes he never met her and that she has a decent H and she need counsling befote TSHTF... we have spoken about 5 times and many emails in fact he has fwd all the emails he has recieved to me on arrival... he has been very forth comming and all indications a decent person...

I am doing as you say or at least trying to... it is very hard hurts, like ****** and well somewhat confusing...
that is why i seek advice here... from who have successfully navagated these water i now find myself in

bump

I was hoping some people could provide some feedback based on their experiences on how quickly i can expect to see some positive effect from my effort.

How long will W be in this withdrawl state getting over the EA?

What do i have in fromt of me...

You should expect withdrawal to last at least as long as the EA. You should also be working on improving your M. Obviously something was missing and you need to get to the bottom of it. After that it will take at least six months, but possibly two years or more to fully recover.

Ecpect slow progress on her end

But that doesn't mean your progress must be slow

At least one month of NC for her to even start recovery

Try to reengage her in life with you

Go out and do the things you did when you first began dating and try to legitimately have fun.

Eventually...this all must be addressed. Don't make the mistake of burying this or it will just happen again.

There are a few great withdrawal and recovery threads around. Search for them. Kiwi's, BobPure's, and Dorry's come to mind.

Also...she may be addicted to on-line gaming and the next OM is just a few inappropriate conversations away. The "fantasy" of the internet may also have a hold on her. Ending it with OM is a must...so is ending her on-line addiction. You need to somehow establish boundaries in your marriage about her computer use. She has demonstrated a weakness that can and has hurt you both. She needs to eventually protect you, her and your marriage from such weakness and NOT on-line game ever again. Don't give in on this thinking it's just a one time thing. The game is as much a problem as OM.

Mr. Wondering

the game addiction is a real possibility... she has even said as much her self...

I will discuss with the counsler about how to address the internet problem... the om is a done deal it appears he didn;t know she was married and ripped her a new one...

JMW i agree, hoping she will work with me on things but need info and feedback... She did the questioniers and i am attempting to address the issues revield by it she is also in IC... but it is hard...

She has stopped all nokkie since i exposed the EA... how long will that last?

It now appears she would like to seperate... but work on the marrage she claims... any ideas?

NO SEPARATION! If she has to have a separation, she moves out and pays for it all by herself, and you don't help her at all. Separation will only allow her to pursue OM again. Do not enable her.

I went through something similiar, ...it seemed like it would never end in my mind, even after it actually ended. I spoke to a great telephone coach ********edit******** that really helped me get my head on straight. I was able to talk to her about what I was feeling, and she would guide me as to how to respond to my husband, because I was also 'on eggshells' all the time. It took several months, but I can breathe again and we are doing well. I wish you the best.

I don't know, lawyer says there is no risk to me, If it lets us both get some rest and relieve the stress so i can detach a tad that would be good, also some phyical stuff to consider, i have lost 45 pounds since thankgiving due to the stress...

I will be like 600 feet away, at moms house and can see my house from there and vice versa...

I asked her for the details, no dating others, work on the marrage, read the books we just recieved from here and listen to the tapes, stay in counsling, I can come and go pretty much as i please for the most part. I don't know if i will be gone full time or maybe just during the week we havn't worked out the details... I see it as very temporary, if in a month or 2 we are not making a recovery then other options will need to be considered...

I am also confused she actuall gave a super hug tears and all when I said pack my bag, Then said you don't have to go right now, stay the weekend... bla bla bla... I don't know what to make of it...

Jim

I guess you missed my first post, so here it goes again:

NO SEPARATION!!!

Understand? You will not fix your problems living apart from your WW. I don't care if you live 600 feet or 600 miles away. Do not move out!! You have a better chance of saving your M if you live together, and your WW has a better chance of having an A if you move out. My WW promised me no dating other people while I foolishly moved out. Guess what? She lied!! Don't ever trust a WW. She might not see OM, but she can talk to him on the phone all the time. That's what my WW did. Hour and two hour long phone calls every day! DON'T MOVE OUT!

Saralee

Now that you've posted 17 times advertising your website on marriage builders could you please STOP. Even after your first post was edited by Justuss for such reason you continued to do it every once in awhile over the last 9 months. This is more than just a coincidence.

NO ADVERTISING ALLOWED - YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTED

Mr. Wondering

ok i am 99% sure the EA is over she has tried to contach him and he is ignoring her... is is a decent guy and didn't knowshe was married...

I am concerned she has a close GF who happenes to be Lesibian... Do i think she is having a pa with her but who can be sure, since women are normally close anyway... her family, office mates etc say she should divorce me... I am the evil husband...


her moving out really isn't an option she dosn't have the money unless she moves in with the GF (lez) but that would likly cost her dearly her Ex said if she tosses this marriage aside he will sue for custody...

I do feel torn and lost... don't know what to do... working hard at elimanating the LB.... but i need sleep too and itis starting to effect my work...

what now?

Stay calm.

She is going to feel like a trapped animal and likely be quite venomous for a few weeks.

Afterall...you ruined her fun (sarcasm)

Let the "separation talk" blow over. It is quite common for a wayward that just lost their lover to speculate "what if I separate and divorce my spouse....maybe THEN the OM/OW will take me back". They view the marriage as the only thing keeping the Other Person (OP) away. They just can't accept that it's over. They will talk separation and she'll complain when you refuse to help her separate but sometimes all you need to say is "NO".

HOWEVER, in spite of this they, more often than not, DON'T follow through with it. They are usually just to depressed, hurt, enraged, pyscho, etc. to do much of anything while withdrawing.

Be still. Follow the do's and don't list I put on Longhorns thread on the Just Found Out board.

Mr. Wondering

Purchase and read Dr. Harley's "Surviving an Affair". Learn abuot the dynamics of affairs. Learn how affairs are similar to addictions. Some of what we advise here will sound counterintuitive, but most people post based on Harley's philosophy.

You need to slow down and take your time. You have already been granted one of the most important pieces of this puzzle... the OM is over and out. Many people here fight for months, even years, just to remove the OM from the equation.

Your W has basically written you out of her life, for all intents and purposes. With women, they FALL so hard into this fantasy love from which affairs exist upon, they are reluctant to give it up.

She needs time to withdraw (6 weeks to 6 months the norm), and additional time to reattach to you, and fall back in love.

She doesn't "just" do all this through some miracle. You have to be the biggest part of what changes, before she'll give you the time of day... LOL! Nookie is pretty much out of the question for some time, sorry to say! LOL!

Read about Plan A. Plan A is how to make changes in yourself which were not conducive to a healthy marriage. This may take some serious introspection. But it must be done. Your marriage was not strong enough to ward off the opportunity for an affair, and must be made stronger.

Stick around, post, read, learn and try to build a marriage that is "affair resistant".

Best wishes,
SD

already taking a fearless self invantory....

lord knows i made many LB mistakes, and a few rather large mistakes as well, some well meaning, some in desperation that probably made some major love bank withdrawls... Her family had convinced me i should call her doctor and in desperation i did.. i was pretty scared and upset at the time... That really pissed her off... she says i should have told her to make an appointment...

a couple weeks later on the day i confromted the EA-OM and then told her i had (my ic told me too) that lead to a confrontation, she was very pissed ... I didn't exacute a good plan A as I didn't know about that then... I pushed back (verbally ) pretty hard and she said she quit, to which i replyed then get out of my F***ing house. and i mean right now... well she back tracked a bit but i really scared the crap out of her... so she says she said she never seen me look so cold and scary...

she admits to being in withdrawl from reading the luve busters book, I am inbetween intamacy/conflict and trying hard to keep the taker at bay...

she says she loves me and hates me... says she needs space but give me the biggest hug i have had in like a year crys and says she didn't want it this way tlak about mixed signals... I think she is scared and unsure and confused... but that is just a guess

Ok assuming i don't move out what about a night away at moms here and there to so we can both get some rest?
currently we both show physical signs of stress, both arn't sleeping well, look like crap... he GP just up her Paxal (anti-depressents) yesterday from 20mg to 40mg... and is concerned.

I have lost 45 lbs and my GP isn't real happy eather, he is temporarly upping my welbutrin to the max dosage he feels comfortable with... That and the xanax have me hanging on by my fingernails...

I did hear you... I will try to postpone the seperation untill we do our MC tuesday and suggest if fatuege is a problem she sleep with the girls... and lets not be hasty until we get the advice of a professional...

2 nights ago she says she is 75%-25% in favior of ending the marrage, she admitted she was looking for a place in the paper, she said she is afraid this will be like her last marrage... He and are are somewhat similur in many respects, the diffrance I will listen to her opinion if she would only give it... but being a man i don''t do well with hints... i just need it stright out no beating around the bush... Her IC says she enables that behaivior by not setting boundries and voicing her opinion...

I am very willing to Follow the advice in the books from here and would love to make her and our marrage a happy one! I am very willing to make changes.

She probably doesn't have a real option to move unless her Les Friend becomes a roommate... the cash isn't there honestly... at least for a while...

we are reading a chapter in the Love buster book togeather every night now and trying to take it onboard.(well i am anyway) and do what it says... we just got the books wensaday... I am also reviewing the His/her book via audio tape on the drive to work.. and see where got of the path...


well enough for now i will take all the advice i can...

bump keep the guidance comming!

Just a note I have just read Dogfood's diary, wow that was a lession...

JMWC I finially got the point, I stand firm in the house... I am new to this and it is a steep learning curve... Been in the mess since 1st week December...

my moving was me trying to be nice... an olive branch...


ok how do I explain the change of heart about not moving out. without making her feel i lied then make another major withdrawl from the love bank..


I am also concerned about her Les GF I have Zero evidance of an PA in this.. However they talk a ton the gf is a confidant, they work togeather/ shop togeather/ coffie etc and are very close.... if she was a man I would be extreamly worried... However women often have these type of close friendship that men don't have... any ideas?


also please keep the advice comming and be advised you might have to tell me twice the uptake can be slow... i am taking a pretty good emotional beating right about now...


J

Hey Jim,

Let me start by saying that your M is not over.

My wife had an EA for about a year. It took me about 8 weeks after NC for my wife to start working with me. My Plan A lasted 7 months.

Tell your wife that you will be staying in your house b/c you want to work on your M. You love her and feel that moving out would hurt your R. You are her H and shoudl be in the M home.

MrW. told you that you need to act like you did when you first dated. Good advise. Try to meet as many EN of hers as you can.

The weekends are slow here so don't feel like people are ignoring you.

Stay in your house

Don't LB

work on bettering you (plan A)

You are better off than most when they come here. Your OM is out of the picture.

Thanks for the note...

ok lots of questions... she has tried to contact OM severial times, he has her on ignore and isn't responding..
Is that still counted as NC?
If so NC was 1/11 from all intel I have...

Ok what do i do? don't want to tip my hand on how i get the intel... so i can keep getting it..

good advice on staying i will take it...

am trying to elimanate as many LB as i can... reviewed the sheet she did again... reading the LB book with W

reviewed her EN again ... actually if she did the sheets honestly I am all in the + side 1's or 2's and I do it how she likes it for her top 5... a couiple non top 5 could use some work ... (shaving)

It seems LB are my down fall... Working real hard to elimanate them, have done so with some, others are harder... however reading dog post is helping me understand the situation and how it plays out so i hope to do better... trying to keep the taker at bay,

One of my LB is trying to get some positive emotional contact...

Talking to much... dwelling on us...intrupting, not listening enough... etc... being scared and selfish... taker stuff...

now what about the GF is she a risk?

Sat went well i think, got her roses, candy and card... she found it and did the typical gal awwwwwhhhhh

well we did dinner last night think it went well, was about 2 hours didn't rush, listened more, she talked more I tried to keep it light... then went shopping for a present for her niece, walked the mall... That went ok...

She nodded off at 9pm so took her to bed... she seemed to sleep well... she woke up and we just snugled for around 30-45 minutes no rush (that was another complaint i hop out of bed on weekends to quick)

Havn't discused moving, leaving alone unless she brings it up...

Seemed to be less tension in the house... of course all her kids were here but it felt quasi normal this weekend...

Today she is taking the kids to sis for neice bday (her sis is toxic sis so i stayed home) I am cleaning and doing laundry so the isn't any work when she get back tonught...


Please keep the ideas, advise, instructions flowing...

I thought weekend went well. She saw dr and shrink...
we watched the MB dvd... she like it though it was good..

She said her IC says she doesn't need more counseling she is done.... but i see an appt card in her purse for another session... why the lie

Tension is better, not much right now...

i am working hard at reducing LB and meeting her EM...
I admit some of my LB are control Selfish demands, disrespet angey outburtst... I am willing to follow the MB course of action for recovery, i don't know is she has bought in or not, though she aggreeded it was good...

She still says the EA was no big deal...

She says she still wants a seperation... I will follow JMWC advice i am not leaving... if she does seprate she has to do it all herself. That would be real hard on her income alone... 1100 a month... and a boy and girl (not mine)

Still worried she is talking seperation though...

I don't see her looiking very hard for a place that i can tell.. says she is on a waiting list... since i busted up the EA, i have no evidance of contact seems NC is holding... she is checking but om is long gone it appears... Still no nookie since NC date (when i exposed the EA) her toys remain untouched so either she is getting that need fill elseware or dose not have the need right now... no evidance i can find of a PA so far...


she thinks I am controling, maniplitive...etc... but also said she knows i am trying and can see some changes, and i love her bla bla bla followed that up with an anology of a wounded solider (her) that cant be fixed from the war (marrage) to much battle fatauge (emotional damage) she acts like she is just quiting...i don't know...

She wants to talk to our MC (My IC) thursday and ask some questions... what, why i haven't a clue...

OK folks i need some advice on how to proceed... and what she is saying it don't always seem to make sense...


Ok MB experts now what do I do, can you interprate what is happining?

You are going to need to keep making changes, because she won't believe it at first.

She is still very early in NC and may be in withdrawal. You are going to have to do all the work right now, and expect nothing in return.

ok well i start the gym tommrow, already down 50 lbs from stess diet...

joined churc chior... trying hard to elimante LB and make max deposits when i can in the Love bank... she is olldy enouh still sleeping with me and alows and likes to cuddle... we are talking a bit more and a bit easier...

i am trying thougt full requests,,, she says i am still tlaking about the M to much...

Sounds promising to me. Usually they won't cuddle at all. Continue what you are doing, and making changes. Also it is suggested that you spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together.

Also give the relationship talk a break.

My concerns are her contuined talk (insistance)on seperation,

What is it she can't tell me and wants to talk to the MC (my IC) about with me thursday.

Her continued talk that she can't do the marrage thing anymore, to much damage done etc etc etc

Is this normal for this stage? Is there a chance for recovery. How can i do it without her buy-in and working at it too...

she also says she want me to more self assured... how do i do that after she says marrage is over, hates me, the EA, wanting sereration... don't know if she can try to make it work... bla bla bla


Please MB pros i could use some answers, it is real uncomfortable over here...

I don't know how much help I'll be because I'm in the same boat as you but here goes... I've only known about my H's affair for a liitle over a month. His was a PA though and lasted for 2 years. Of course, our situations are different for other reasons too because you're a man, I'm a woman, and the basic EN that we weren't meeting will more than likely be flip-flopped. There are some things that have helped tremendously in our situation though and I wanted to share them:

1. We started spending time ALONE without the kids the day after I found out and have continued that several times a week to "feel" like a couple again (not just parents). It sounds like you have family support close and maybe your W's ex would be willing to take his kids more often if he thought it would help your marriage.

2. I have bent over backwards trying to meet every need that I know I wasn't meeting before. Yes, I had sex with my H, but did I ever initiate... Nope. Yes, I dressed up and put on make-up when we went out somewhere, but did I look my best when HE would be the only one to see me... No way (I already had him, who was I trying to impress). The list could go on and on, but you get the point.

I don't know what her needs are, but you do. Are you doing everything you can to meet them and NOT focus on what needs of your own she's not meeting. That was always a big thing for me. If he won't turn away from the tv and look at me when I'm talking or if he won't play with the kids, then why would I want to have sex with him? It was all about me, but all I could see was how selfish he was being.

3. Do NOT think about the OM at all. This is extremely hard to do, but it has made me get through the days so much easier. Of course, this was after I had asked all my questions (which took the entire first month). I spoke with her once on the day I found out and have been tempted to again, but haven't. I figure if I have contact with her, that's the same as him having contact with her because she's still part of the equation.

It does sound like you don't have to worry about the OM anymore, so I wouldn't contact him again. It also sounds like he'll be the first to let you know if you're W talks to him so try not to stress about it unless you have to.

4. Stay calm. Hold your tongue. I know... easier said than done <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I think the thing that kept my husband from walking out the door on Day 1 was that I kept my composure and took the "what do you need me to do" approach. Of course, he's gotten the @#*% kicked out of him a few times since then though! But for the most part, I have just tried to be someone who is "loveable" and I definitely hadn't been that to him before.

Sorry to ramble on for so long. I just wanted to share some things that have made this easier on me and made the recovery process faster than it probably would have been

I don't know her and her lisbean friend went looking for appartments tonight, i don't know if they found on or not maybe.. said something about credit checks etc... but they hanvn't dopne it yet real sctechy...

she says she wants to part before we become enemies....

Of course everything is my fault... ANd theat her Dr, shrink has concerns becuse i w3as erratic.... like having your wife say we shouldn't gotten married and finding her in a EA make for logical thought when you rip out the emotional heart...


i really need to pros to help me I am feeling lost...

Is she seeing the les? or could it just be friendship...

I know she moves in with her GF her ex will sue for custody... shy can't she see this... she would likly loose too...


HELP

pro please help...

My intel says WW and her lez friend have applied for an appt... WW dad gave w money for the deposit... will be telling me today at MC.. Cuz she is worried about my reaction... will move ASAP following that...

I don;t know if she is spitting for good (my fear) or to continnue MC... and working to recon... Since i am not getting much truth right now...

Now what continue plan A or move to plan B?

HELP

Need advice and help bump

bump

OK...first off, protect your assets. Remove your wife from any checking/savings accounts, and make sure she knows that she's not taking ANYTHING from the marital home unless it's her personal stuff.

If she chooses to move out, that is HER choice. But, you don't have to make it easy for her. Make it clear that if she leaves, there will be NO support from you at all. She's ON HER OWN.

What snooping have you done to determine if she's really in a relationship with this other woman or not?

Is she still engaged in the online gaming that let her meet with OM? What game is it? Is she still suffering an online addiction?

Take a look for my story over on the Recovery board...from way back.

Above all, don't beg or plead with her on any of this. Don't get angry and violent either. Your best bet is to talk QUIETLY...so that she has to stop and listen to what you're saying. Make it clear that you don't want her to go, that you love her and feel that you can work out things in your marriage...but that if she leaves, it's her choice and you will NOT support her at all.

Does her exH know that she's moving out? I thought you'd mentioned he would fight for custody if she did so...sounds like you might want to make sure that he knows what she's up to as well.

owl thank god someone anwered..

sentanbce 1 is in good pretty decent shape, she isn;t taking any marital stuff...

number 2 is already clear no support from me, i may keep the cell phone on so we can try to recon but that is about it, end when the insurance is due next month if we havnt reconciled that stops too.

As much snooping as i know how to at the moment... they work togetather and talk/text alot... nothing is said on the puter or other places that i can monitor that indicates an affair...

yes she is still playing the game just when she don't think i know... the OM is out of the Picture.. but she is pretty chatty.... game is runescape...


we spoke about it atIC/ MC today... first 15 minutes was me an IC we figure the next couple weeks will tell the tale based on her actions... if she remains engaged we know she is trying if not we know it was a ploy...
wehn togeather i made it clear i don;t want her to go and think we can make it work... counsler help explain some mis communication between us as well as how she hurt me and why it was trumatic.... explained it was a trigger and caused me to be hyper vigalant... that sin;t control, it is fear looks the same but comes from a diffrent motivation...

No her Ex dosn't know yet if she moves this weekend will have to be told as he haas the girls for visitation this weekend...

besides the kids will tell him and better she be mad at him then me...

she is in the car talking to someone now probnably abiout the appt...

this really hurts


oh well i will part gracefully and kindly as i can...

Keep the advice comming...

bump please folks i need some support and guidance on what to do now...

Ken,

I'm afraid it is pretty slow around here at night and weekends can be downright lonely...

I wish there was something "magic" that could be done, but there just isn't. One of the keys to a good Plan A is knowing what to do and staying with the game plan no matter what the WS does or says. If you look at DF's thread you will see that in the beginning he was trying to fly by the seat of his pants. He was reacting to everything that happened and came looking for help about twice an hour.

I'd be concerned about W's GF, if for no other reason than she may be an enabler in all of this. If they have been close for a long time, she may also have had a crush on your W for years and now sees this as her chance, so keep a close eye on that sitch.

You said you joined the church choir, so I'm guessing you are in a healthy well balanced church. Does your pastor know what's going on? In my own sitch, it was my pastor and a long time friend who kept me from insanity for the first few weeks and still keep me encouraged when I'm feeling down or downright hopeless.

For now, let me share with you what I was told by my friend three weeks after Dday. I'd lost 15 pounds on the infidelity diet by then and was only sleeping about an hour or two per night.

All he told me was to read Psalm 102. You will find that the first 11 verses describe right where you are. Just be sure to read verse 12! Read it more than once. Read it out loud!

You can still win this, but it will take a really long time. Don't give up hope!

Mark

I am a bit confused, if you don't mind I ask you some questions:

First, how many kids do you as couple have?

I agree you should bot be the one to leave the house.

She was the one who had an EA. It's over. NC.
She seamed like she was trying at least to "recover M" IC, MC, reading books with you and all.

Why does she wants to leave? What reasons to leave is she giving you?

It's temporary? Need her space? Wants a D?

How about the kids? Are they staying with you?

Something not sounding right... unless she's following someone's advice.

How was you life before all this mess? How was your SF life?

What are her top needs? Are you trying to meet them?

Mark,

what to say is W GF an enabler, most diffanatly, she wants W to dump me, as do most her co workers... I don't know what she has said but it must have been wonderful...

GF home is a mess brother beating up mom and with W as her roommate she can afford to move out of that mess...

I don't know how to keep a close eye on them, if W is having an affair with her... They work togetather, and W said I can pick her up to date... but not come in the house as it make GF uncorfortable.. and would upset her GF, and it is her aprt. too...

Yes my pastor is pretty much in the loop... dosn't know wbout us splitting but knows the rerest of the stich...
i will talk with him more today proably...

no i don;t mind, we have no children togeather all childern are from previous marraige.

She is leaving I am not and it will be touture... broke down last night after she was sleeping...


yes she had the internet EA in on online game and is likly addicted to the game... I have no eidance of contact since i talked to OM, and i have been looking, although she has tried to contact him he isn't responding...

Yes she appears to be trying, says she needs space as i am smothering (and i probably am) Some of my intel makes it look like a more permante situation then what she is saying...

she says she wants to leave becuase to much stress and tension in the home... I am smothering...

she claims temproray, if it goes well over the next month maybe a little more we can continue MC and work to recon, yes needs space... If i push for an answer it would be a D if i don't pust it is well see how it goes... If it dosn't go well it would be over...

She will take children will leave her dog...

well everyone is advising she D me... i don't know what she has said but it seems she turned all her friends and family aganist me


first 6 years were great, 7th was very hard, money tight due to drop in pay, also was very tense after the internet addiction and EA... Our Sf wasn't great, however when we do it it is great... i kind of withdrew for a while after i discovered first internet game BF last march, asked her to quit the game and she didn't.... so i went into my shell to some degree... then money got tight.... so the past 11 months SF wasn't real good...

I am also probably hyper-vigalant according to my shrink... looks like I am controling/ out of control... however genisis was due to PTSD... not control.... shrink thinks this is due to truma from last marrage when caught my Former W doing the OM... That was very trumatic for me... she told my W that yesterday, her internet thing probably triggered my hyper-vigalence state...

i am in the plus side on all her EN... I have problems with Love Busters...


hope that helps

Living in he**

Try to calm down. All this stuff is very stressful. Keep making your changes, don't have angry outbursts or say disrespectful things to her.

Make it safe for her to talk to you. She is painting you as the bad guy in all of this. Don't give her any ammunition!!

I just though a ray of hope...

Her Gf wants out of her house dad and mom fight)
she is 25 and single... this will be her 1st time away from Mom and dad... She also appears to be a neat nick as she refuses to wear anything that isn't ironed first...

Well Ws kids are anything but neat... and if she thinks 2 kids are bad consider when it becomes 5 kids... Teen boys lying on couch doing PS2, dishes everywhere, cloathing everywhere, 1 bath room and teen boys who don't lift the seat... no peace or quite execpt her Bedroom....Anyone who has kids know what i am talking about...You can quickly be overwelled... I doubt friend has considered these things...

All is awsome and rosy now...

How will ms 25 and single adapth to the role of parent? No fun and freedome as a parent... she can't bring home her GF (if W isn't her gf)when she wants, if they are GF they have to sneak...

W is thinking Friend will babysit when we go out and do things. or on weekends when she picks up hours at second job to make ends meet... She will have to Babysit Girls when W goes to pick up her boys every other friday and sunday (7 hour round trip). (the minivan is mine) W has a small car... Frind my not have figured on being built in babysitter... that may very well grow old, quickly..

The appt rules are very restrictive, no partys, no loud music... and her teenage boys like load music and can be teenage boys and rough house... the appt won't like that...

7 people in a 2 bed room apart can get pretty cramped...

The computers W is allowed to take (her old one and the craptop) are both POS, and won't support the games the boys like to play. The computers also don't play W game very well..

GF likes myspace... W like games as do her daughters and boys...the kids fights over the internet, TV, PS2 will be intense, there are now with 3 highpower machines online and the craptop... and the fights are intense, imagine only 1 crappy puter online with everyone compeating for time. I would pay to see that...

Will Gf enjoy W online gamming? and having to play mommy and maid...

For the boys no more head to head duals. No more big screen for the PS2... No more bedroom or space... how long before the teen boys miss my toys and privacy and decide it just isn't fun to come anymore...

we currently do 2 loads of wash a day (big front loader)
no washer and dryer in the appt... now it is luandry mat time at 1.50 a load...

And what about when something happens a car breaks, no more mr fix everything...

I guess i am woundering how long the green grass last. W may come to discover I wasn't so bad, also GF may discover it isn't all peaches and cream being a parent...


On a side note me and w have recently resumed having SF... maybe the withdrawn of OM is starting to wear off...

while i don't like her leaving, it may also not be all bad... if Gf sees other side, of life, H the jerk and W the saint may fade... the bloom may come off the rose...

Thoughts, comments appreciated...

bump

I know it is hard to just let them go. But usually that is what really wakes them up. The new fantasy life isn't going to be what she is dreaming about - that's for sure.

I would go out and buy some popcorn and sit back and watch.

you think my idea may have some merit?

Yes, get the popcorn - they won't last a month.

Are your children staying with you?

only the fur kids (my and her dog)

Okay, is this about right? She has 6 kids and is moving in with a lesbian?

yes more or less

she has custody of 2, her ex has custody of 2 and the remaining 2 are aduilts.

She is attempting to move in with a co-worker/best friend who is also a lesbein if the appt accepts the credit check

I do not know and have no evidance either way if W is involved with friend or is just a close friend. i am having difficulty figuring a way to find out one way or the other. When she moves most intel I get will stop.

she says she is getting space and will be continuing to work for recon, again no way to verify at this time... we are in MC togeather volenterrly...

Ok i came to this site late and really have just started to get my act togeather, broke about all the rules for a decent plan A since i didn't know about it... I have been pretty intense and smothering...

I was trying to start implemention of a plan A the past few days when she decided to move out.. I am working to elimanate LB. and meeeting EN...

There has been no know contact with Internet EA that I can find. Since i disclosed to him she was married... I have been watching she has tried he has her on ignore...

over the past 2 days she is resumed having nookie... and has been "cuddly", we reamin sleeping togeather at least until she moves...

In generial, I am pretty lost with this turn of events and was hoping the pros here could get me on track...


tnx

"over the past 2 days she is resumed having nookie... and has been "cuddly", we reamin sleeping togeather at least until she moves..."

Good on you!!! That is very promising. Continue Plan A, and making the changes you can make.

I think you can see that this the living situation with her friend is never going to work out. Let her go give it a try. There is nothing like reality to end the fantasy.

Well today is roses day every saturday she gets a dozen...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Of course next friday she gets 2 dozen (feb 11 we are married 1 year) delivered to her office! we have concert tickets next saturday night, to bad kids our in town... i think she said kids will be out here next weekend...

I do see a lot of pontential problems with the living arrangment yes... they are both thinking awsome (that statement makes me worried)... I wish i could understand what she is thinking...

Can I do a plan A if she moves out? I would imagine that requires we are remaining in contact...

How do you folks suggest I handle the move out? I don't want to help, don't want to pout, don't want to be happy...don't want to be angry... what do i want to be?

If she moves out, stay in Plan A, at least for a couple of months.

I would not help her move out. Does she have a lot of heavy furniture to move?

no not much heavy stuff... I am told her lady co-workers who all hate me by the way are going to help her... a bed, fouton, desk, couple dressers, and cloathing couple small tv's... some dishes stuff like that....

Most of the house I newly furnished prior to our wedding...

should i be here when she moves out or be gone and have someone mind the fort... one of my olders sisters comes to mind but they would have rather sharp claws out i think... for little brother...:)

Personally, I would be there, just to make sure what goes. Try to have someone there as a witness.

Are you planning to stay in that house?

you darn right i am the sole person on the morgage, I am not going anywhere...

In that case, I would wait to see if she moves, and then reclaim your home. Get it nice a sparkly clean, warm and welcoming.

I imagine your wife will be doing some visiting just to escape the chaos.

That was already on my agenda... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I just watced an intresting movie with W, she seems distant tonight... was an intresting line at the end of the movie...

I can live without you, I just don't want too... pretty much sums things up... wish I would have said it...

I'm amazed she will sit and watch a movie with you. Sounds like things are better for you than they are in most of the cases here.

Keep up the good work until she leaves, if she leaves.

actually 2 movies...

she was cold and mad ofter disclosure, wouldn't sleep with me no nookie, ho hugs... latley she has thawed some...

she was real distant tonight, kind of stand offish... came to bed not snuggly, then she got up around midnight, played her game a bit then went to sleep on the couch...

I don't know what is bothering her, but i can fell that something is weighing heavyly on her mind... I wish she would talk to me about what ever is bothering her...

she has done very little prepairing for the move... just little stuff... and she is thinking of moving monday or tuesday if the appt application goes through...

i wonder if she is rethinking the move... but the wheels are already set in motion... I don't know... It just bothers me when she is troubled...

Ken313 - you have mentioned a few times your church involvement (choir, pastor, etc.) so I'd like to ask you a little bit about your faith and your wife's faith. If it offends you, please tell me and I'll not "go there" anymore.

I am very curious about other aspects of your marriage also.

So let's just list a few questions that you may want to answer in order to give us more background on your situation on which to base some suggestions and/or advice.

1. Do you believe that you are a born again Christian?

2. What is the Pastor's stance on your wife's actions?

3. Are you and your wife members of the local church you attend?

4. What is your wife's relationship with Christ, if any?

5. What was the reason that your wife divorced her first husband?

6. What is it about you or your behavior that your wife's friends and co-workers think is "bad enough" that she should divorce you?

7. Though it may sound "dumb," why do you want to remain married to your wife and her lazy, lay-about, messy, children?

8. Knowing your wife for some 6 years before getting married you must have know a lot about what she was like and what the children were like, so why did you decide that she was "marriage material" in general and why did you think that she was "your lifetime mate" in specific?

God bless.

P.S. You may be "controlling and manipulative," but I'm not hearing that in your posting so far. What I "hear" is a very selfish, self-centered, wife who likes the "Things" that you provide her and her children but who also wants to remain "single" in her mind and NOT your wife and helpmeet.

In short, she wants her "cake and to eat it too" just like virtually all Wayward Spouses. So these accusations of being "controlling and manipulative" are just her attempts to rationalize and justify her gross sin and to shift the "blame" for her behavior to you. That is something that you should be aware of, not let bother you when you hear it, and should be yet another warning sign that she is very much into "self" and "justifying an affair or affair-like behavior."

no problem, no offense,

1. I do beleive in god/christ... born again I don't know... Sometimes i have doubts (like thomas) Sometimes I feel near him, sometime I feel alone and later realize he was carrying me. and sometimes I feel the spirt move within me... born again you tell me it isn't a term I Assoicate with well...
How ever with the latest trails, I have become active in church again and the messeage has been coming through very loud and clear... so you tell me..

2. He isn't happy, he had recommend we get counseling, he is concerned and has lifted up W and I in prayer many times.

3. members no but we have been attending pretty reguraly since the tribulations have been on going...

4. I am methiodist, she is more pentacostal, and has been "filled with the spirt" does that answer your question?

5. He was a control freak and abusive as i understand it... also a minister who had an A, and later broke up another marrage and is with that Woman...

6. Ok this takes some back ground... I caught my former (not current) W in an affair, it was girls night out... I drove up to suprise her, and caught her in the parking lot doing it (skirt around waist him between legs etc) that was extreamly trumatic for me emotionally... My therpiost says she believes when i discovered W flirting online this trigger first a withdrawl by me then when it didn't stop it proceeded to a hyper-viglalence (sp) condition... she says that is common from post trumatic stress.... that triggered w fear of a controling hubby... causing a visious spirl...more she pulled away harder i held on...

7 they are kids not bad kids just kids... I am ex military and as such like everything in its place... not a neat nick but like things shipshape so to speak... I have also bounded with the little beggers... I love W deeply and I love Ws childern as my own... I have had the best 6 years of my life with her. When it worked i was content and at peace hope that makes sense...

8 I have had the best 6 years of my life with her. When it works i was content and at peace hope that makes sense...


concerning the ps... i could be, and she could be... I am not wise enough to know these things at the moment, i am trying as best i can to understand and do what i can for me to lead her back to me... time will tell i guess..

Who knows why she is distant? You might want to drop any relationship talk, but tell her that you are really going to miss her and the kids.

we talked a lot today about the days to come.. I liestened alot, I am convinced this is going to be a long seige not a quick battle.

she said she would give a D if i asked for one. just fill out the papers and she would sign them, I said the D word isn't in my vocabulary, she said if I meet another let her know, I said my heart is already spoken for and isn't open for bussiness... she talks in terms of when school gets out and what school s the kids do next fall... I sat and listened and tried to breath.

We made love, we held each other for a long time... she talked about feeling old and about so much pain in her life and being numb and confusion i almost lost it. when steped into the shower i did loose it...when she walked out i simply shattered.

I will be asking my BIL and Big Sis to be on stand-by for when she leaves, to give me the stregnth to face the seperation and the move out. I will try to keep it togeather the next few days but it will very hard, this is going to really hurt...

For those out there who pray, say one for me and us... I am pretty sure when she stps out the door i will break into shatter into pieces.

anyone ever feel like they were dead meet and have the M work out?

Some of the most hopeless are the ones that turn around the quickest. But your situation seems very optimistic to me. Usually the WW won't have anything to do with the husband.

i think she is playing me to buy time to get her act togeather and leave for good...

she told toxic sis i broke down today and was crowing she is moving...

Well, they are often cold and heartless. Let's just see what happens if she moves.

Does she have a job outside the home, and good credit?

not good credit yes 2 jobs
she broke down the bunk beds today... is to move her stuff tommrow to storage and move out next monday day after anaversary...

dad giving her appt deposit and co-signing... i think she is telling me wat i want to hear until she is gone and when gone will be long gone...

thanks for hanging in here with me the others it seem deserted me...

feeling really vulnarble right now I thank you for the support!

also what percent of W that sepeate ever come home?

Dad made a big mistake by co-signing. He will regret that.

Stay in Plan A. You are still very early in this. And most do come back to the marriage.

Does your wife have lots of past problems, and problems in her family of origin?

Yes.

and Yes.

Hang in there.

more intresting details...

W admitted her GF's dosn't like me and I can only visit when she isn't there... Also W admitted the roommate's les GF hates my W and is jelious of the time W spends with friend, now they will be roommates... Keeps getting better....

Also W admitted when i broke down it made her very uncomfortable and she didn''t know what to do...(she just hugged me...)

when i left for work today didn't say i love you after kissing her goodbye, (she did, i pretended not to hear it...) when i called on the way to work (normal thing) she said ILU first and i relied in kind...

More advice please and i would love some help making a decent plan A... I am still reacting more then acting...

Her mom was abusive, her Ex H was a control freak and abusive so i am told... But for sure controling....


Her family is disfuntional, always some drama going on... would make a great book... brother/dad drink pretty heavly, sis a addict in recovery, other sis is unstable (married and had/having PA with W future Roomate), drinks alot also, take all kinds of pills perscribed, but she DR shops I am told...

The sis in recovery is probaly second most healthy after W...

you tell me...her family always tried to split us and maybe they finally are succeding...

Remember Ken, the M and it's recovery is between you and her. The love we have for someone and the choices we make are our own. In the end, neither of you should make any decision that you don't make yourself. She will make her own decisions on things, and her friends & family are certainly going to try to influence that. You have to play that game to, and influence her by your deeds and some of the things you say.

I have said things to my wife in hopes of pushing away advice she may be receiving that is simply not "right". If someone tells her she needs to do what makes her happy, I agree. If someone tells her that too much has happened, and it can't be fixed, I disagree.

Bottom line is: Even though your actions and words seem to have little or no influence on this situation, they STILL do. However small, you'll take it.

On the note of hope and separation:
You made love to your wife recently. She told you she loved you. You have more than hope.

Sure, there is hope for the separated. If separation can be avoided, I strongly recommend anyone discussing it or considering NOT to do it. There's a bit of out of sight and out of mind that will occur. As a married couple, it can't last long as you will need to learn to live together again.

yesterday she said...

"I see your making changes..." "I see your trying hard and catching yourself when you make mistakes" ... "the house is calmer and more relaxed, I feel less presure" stuff like that

That's a good sign, you are receiving positive feedback for your changes. Thank her for that, you are doing the best you can one day at a time.

You haven't changed. You are changing. You don't tell her that either, you just do it.

Be like Nike. Just do it. Words without action are bull*hit.

and she is still leaving... also seem real cold when talking about me when she thinks i am not aware...

agreeded about the game being the biggest problem in my view... and a harder nut to crack... I don't know how to overcome this one...

Ideas?

that is the quandry, she has seemed to be more engaging and we have resumed being intamate (3 out of the past 4 days) she sent me an e-mail today with an ILU and heart on it... Hasn't done that in some time...

Then again she is still trying to move... I can't make sense of it...

Post deleted by Ken313

Ugh - the utterings of an active WS...

Her suggestion about you "crying all day" and the rest suggests that she thinks you're weak and won't be able to take it after she leaves. Are you up to proving her wrong?

This is basically the crunch time. If you feel that it will be very difficult for you to execute a good plan B, which means avoiding contact with her until she's ready to come home and respect your boundaries, basically showing her that you are worthy of her respect, then you might want to consider going directly to Plan D.

mamin motion cant kick her out per the lawyer...
do you have an email so we can swap Pnone i need lots of advice fast

Ken -

You need to calm down. This is just the normal wayward talk. Why are you checking her on the keylogger? You know that she is moving - let her go.

I suggest that you let her move out as planned and then continue making your life a good one. Do you have some friends that you can go places with? If so, do it.

Man in motion check email

Ken - We posted at the same time. Why are you getting so excited at the typical stuff the WS spouts? My WH told my co-workers, neighbors, family members and friends all kinds of crazy stuff. Now that we are divorced, and the truth came out, they are still friends with me, and feel sorry for him.

believer check your email

ok continue plan a or plan b or plan d

Jim,

Where the he)) are you? I'm by Parkside and 3 min from the mall. I don't have a lot of time right now, but we can meet for lunch if you want.

ken is for Kenosha?

I'm not a pro by any means, but I'm certainly your peer with a recent separation myself.

Stay in Plan A at this very moment. Plan B needs to be planned, and you are too upset to mess with that right now.

Plan D is not an answer you find when you are in this state. Maybe you consider Plan D at a later point, but not today and not in the next few days.

This is typical Wayward talk. Read others posts, read my story. It's so damn similiar it's funny. It's hard to believe, but it is US vs. Them. It took me quite a while to get into that notion too, but I'm bought in. When I post, it's for support, strategy, to keep a journal of events, and to help others somehow, someway by my story.

I don't think your M is over yet. Don't internalize what she said, feed off it.

Take her strengths and make them your own.

What makes her so strong right now? Your weakness. What happens when you show Strength and Confidence? You have taken that away.

What makes her strong? Thinking she has it all figured out. No, now you do. You took the edge with your keylogger and found some truth. Finding the truth is a necessity that will empower you, waywards call that snooping. We call it revealing secrecy. Take what you know and prove her wrong.

Plan A today, give it some thought and consider either Plan B or the 180. Do you still love your wife? If "Yes", then Plan D is not the answer today.

close enough i could drive there in 20 minutes can we talk? need info fast

calm down and take a breath.

What is going on right now?

jay we need to talk need more feedback then typing you hve an email?

I thought she was planning to move out on her own accord?



Calling me would be expensive, and I don't consider myself expert enough to give one-to-one advice on relationships anyway. Anything I post here is subject to "peer review" :-). If you still need to talk to someone though, I can be IM'd on maninmotion2005@hotmail.com

i am ticked but it is under lock down,
she is somewhere in the house she knows i was alittle something.

i have no clue what she is doing

what is a 180?

yes friends and family in area...

Ken, the phone will do you the best right now. Call your closest friends, your family, vent, vent, vent. And stay home. You don't sound like someone who should be driving right now, I have nearly been in several accidents since this cr*p started for me, I know.

Having someone listen on the phone is going to be the far more therapeutic for you than emailing or IM. Especially when you are experiencing anxiety like this. I know from experience.

The strongest, most confident men can be broken (I read in one story the description "emotionally raped") by this stuff. We all have been DEVASTATED by this.

Stop. Breathe. Pick up the phone. Grab a beer. Is no one around? Get mad, cry, LET IT OUT! Tonight you Plan Zero. If she talks to you and you are feeling angry, defensive, simply not ready to talk in a calm, controlled, confident manner: Don't talk. She calls, don't answer.

If you do leave, go somewhere you are comfortable, like a relatives house. Borrow a room and pick up the phone. Have them grab some couch while you pace.

It's about you tonight, not her. Tomorrow we plan, tonight we help you.

Trust us, please, and take a breath and talk it out with someone. (Not her tonight)

deleted

Ken313:


Yes, relax.

So she said some WW things.

Make you Cry?

Than Man-Up. Don't cry. Plan A, and improve yourself and get ready for Plan B.

Relax.

The fight will begin tommorrow. And she won't know what hit her, if you do it right.

ok crying is done now it time for battle... she indicates she will attempt to reestablish contact internet ea with OM on departure..

will do plan A till monday when she leaves, then I want to switch to plan B and make a black hole look like sunshine

spoke to IC just now she is a mb but knows sonme of the work...

we will discuss more thursday in time we meet before WW come in.

she also thinks going dark might be called for it is time WW respects some boundries...

Ok folks next order of bussiness
meed some help making a rock solid Plan B to deploy on her depature... that means sunday my anaversary...

Hope you are staying calm. One of the favorite ploys of some fogged WS's is sending the BS to the pokey after driving them crazy.

Your wife is just trying to justify her despicable behavior.

Jay can we arrange a meeting in the next couple days? Early evening is best 6-7ish

w is very close to meeting my dsipicable attorney

the love bank is about to close...

I didn't get your email. What else is happening?

sent again to the addy liksted in your profile

Here is the 180 list -

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting, get busy, do things, church, sports, tan,
15. When home with your spouse, be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you’ve had an awakening
and as far as you’re concerned, you’re going to move on with your life.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold, wait to see if spouse notices.
19. No matter what you’re feeling TODAY, only show spouse happiness.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk.
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on other parts of your life).
28. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed
much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of
what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives
because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

how's it going?

well she over heard me and believer phone converstaion and is very pissed (that she was busted) she said now that you know it all... it is over when she leaves she will never see me again and not speak with me... I spoke to her very softly and calmly that if snooping and fighting to save my marrage is a crime, i am guilty... If not giving up on her and us is a sin i have commited it. If wanting to know the truth instead of lies is a problem it is one i perfer...

I said there will be no quick D, i have the paitence of job.
And she should know that the door she walks out if she wants back in just let me know and we will discuss it.

I said things will have to change and she will need to respect my boundries... she talked about control and i said if requiring you not flirt with guys is control i am guilty of it. She said some other things about me flirting with a friend (i hvae never done this knowling) and i said and if you would have told me it bothered you i wouldnt have done them i cant read you mind... she said well i need to vent anger somewhere and i said that is why you have a husband and i need to hear things if they bother you...

she said i was being controling about the game... i said if i was controling i would have firewalled the game so they wouldn't work, but i allways give you free choice to play or to stop.

asked about this weekend she said forget it... said if you change your mind let me know by friday of i will make other plans... i said there is lots of time and nothing that has happened is reason to toss the marrage if we want to make it work...

she got real quite, said a few more hurtful things that was water off this ducks back... i said if you change you mind and want to talk you know where i will be... , i said if you change your mind about the other things you know where i will be... then i kiss her on the forehead and walked away to the bed room...

you were right time to cowboy up! i am in a battle for my marrage and one i intend to WIN!!!!! Thanks believer!
Jim

PS believer and it is said the truth will set you free!

Glad you are doing better. Stay calm, stay in Plan A.

Sorry if talking caused problems. I think she is much more attached than she knows. If she does move, let her go, tell her you wish she wouldn't, but you can't control her choices.

well lets see it has been said the truth will set you free...

she did come to bed and was snuggly and did become intimate... you tell me i cant figure it out...

later she said ger ex told the twins he is going to talk to the judge and have them live with him... things are in motion it appears...

she moves more today (actully move herself in a few days) no need to rush home so off to the gym...

later

Jay toss an email we could do coffie... I am in Sturtevant...

bump

Hey Ken,
Just saw your thread. I am in a Plan A right now possibly headed to recovery, we'll see. I just confronted WW this past weekend after working the Plan A for a couple months...took me a month or two to get the Plan A straight. hard to control those LBs when you are so hurt and raging inside. So stay the course, also try to remember you need to make the changes for yourself, not for the reaction of your WW. You cannot control her actions so if you want her back, lure her, don't drag her. I review these things each morning to make sure I have my game face on for the day:
DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

Ken,
From what I've seen, you're conversation with her yesterday was straight WS script. And I think your responses were pretty darned good.

Stick to them. Don't apologize for the actions you're taking to save your marriage. Don't attack her, but at the same time don't let her browbeat you down. No more crying in front of her...it's DARNED tough to keep from doing that, but trust me, it's better to save that for when you're by yourself.

As far as the controlling part...that's all standard WS script too. If she's ever in a quiet, 'listening' mood, you might be able to explain to her that there's always 'expectations of behavior' in ANY relationship. The only reason it's an issue now is because she's violated the 'unwritten but agreed on' rules of your marriage. But I wouldn't plan on a long conversation about this right now...trying to educate your WS is normally NOT effective.

Hang in there...you've done a lot of the right things from what I've seen.

Keep your emotions under control. Don't lose your temper, don't get clingy, whiney, needy (it's easy to fall into that, I know!). Start doing things that make a better YOU. Get into a gym, resume old hobbies, dress nicer, make sure that you smell nice, etc... These things will have more effect than you realize.

Oh, and don't stop snooping.

well snooping will be greatly impacted when she leaves the home... I don't know how i can maintain much intel after she has gone...

Trying to get the plan A up to speed but things are moving rapidly... Hoping to Hook up with jay for moral support and planning the war stragety will take all the advice from those here as well... maybe jay and I can do some mutial support and cross snooping or something...

My support network is on full alert and standing by
Minister, shrink , sisters, mom, co-workers, boss.. are in the loop.

The rest i am trying hard to implement to the best of my ability... I guess time will tell... Time for game face...

I am basicall saying i won't stop living if you go... Life goes on... You know where I am, you know what I want and need... I am not going nowhere. If you want to come with that is your chioce and you are welcom to join me, when you leave if you want to come back i am open to discuss it...

I am in sturtevant yes let get togeather e-maile me a number and ill call... mis read eailer and thought you were jay...

I would like to meet and have someone who has been there help with my plan a and B and to get through this mine field...

Castlewood??

Check you email

well folks she packed up before i got home and is gone now what?

Ken,

Know that you didn't not cause her to leave, know it was her choice and her decision. You have done a good job at starting your personal journey. What you will see is she will get stuck in a loop, oscolation back and forth, between blame and anger. She will blame you for her actions she will get angery because your not angery.

Do something for yourself, take a ride, go eat with your friends. Go to church.... you are on you own personal journey you don't have the burden of the affair she does. She has the same free will as you to choose and decide what she wants...

All your doing is providing her a path and a way back to you, to someone worth being with. She still can choose not to follow it... its just your going to make it awfully hard because you are becoming a better stronger person.

Its sucks it hurts you want to pound your head against the wall... it gets better over time, there will be ups and downs but your on the path to enlightenment.

Have a good night

Continue in Plan A. I'm sure she will be back. Fantasyland isn't going to be all that she's thinking.

Check your email

well it is pretty amazing i felt a tad anxiety for a few miutes but right now i fell an eary calm... this is better then the unknown... does that make sense...

ok now what is the plan for phase...

Ken, sorry I missed some posts. I'm checking in on you. It hurts right now, I know from experience.

The things you DO NOT want to do are:
Be clingy, needy, call her over and over, beg, plead, etc right now. It's natural to do that, I did it before I became educated.

You are at peace with it. Become at peace with it. Don't fear or worry what you have no control of.

I just learned that my wife, whom I have known as my soulmate for 17 years, slept with another man just this Friday night. I saw the truck parked outside his apartment. I saw the lights off in their room and wondered. That was painful, but now I have a strange peace about that compared to other things.

I miss her smile, her LOVE, everything.

My message here is that you CAN gain some inner strength and peace. My biggest regret is not focusing on my own inner strength earlier.

Work on yourself for YOU, and know that it will not go unnoticed by HER. But don't worry about whether it does or not. Start now, today. Get into the gym, go to church, follow the Plan A principles and trust them.

Think of the man YOU want to be. Now, tell yourself that it's never too late to become the person you always wanted to be. Say it everyday. This is your plan right now.

Oh! You missed her call. It's all good. Call her back on your time, you are getting a life at the moment. Like she is.

Remember: What are her strengths? One of them is that she has a life, and I bet you feel like you don't have one right now. Maybe it's because of the stress from this, and it's stopped your world. Get one now.

If my wife calls now (which she hasn't done this week due to exposure 2 days ago), I don't answer. Am I doing somethign at the moment? No. But I want her to think so.

She is no better than you. You are no better than her. Right now she thinks she is the stronger of the two of you. You are looked down upon. All of us feel that way at one point or another in this. The Wayward flaunts the power, and they know they have it. That's another one of her strengths.

Make that strength your own. Prove her wrong in your actions.

I am the lighthouse that will welcome you back, not drag you back. You can see it faintly through the fog still, but you are not drawn. Make that light brighter by improving yourself and throw gentle, loving reminders that will fulfill the ENs you can when you can without appearing weak.

That's my advice for today.

Learn from the mistakes I made, don't repeat them.

Strength
Confidence
Act Happy until you become Happy and at peace with the situation.

Then you will have control of the situation, and you will have the power. You will offer a life together, and then you can relinquish that power because you want to share it with her.

It's never too late!

Jay

well i am actually feeling relieved, now she has done about all she can do... do need a kitchen table... other then that i feel very releived that it is done and i don't have to wonder when any more...

i did call to see if she was comming home. after she said no and that she was safe... i let he know I was going to cut off her cell phone... here GF is a blabber mouth and i wasn't paying so they could chat...

Well i just got an email on my office account that said she will see me at MC thursday love ..... and to use eail until she can get a cell phone plan... maybe ill answer it tommrow afternoon...

Oh she did take our engagement phote alson with the other framed photos... Go figure...

bump

Tonight??? 5:30 ???

works for me...
Could use some support... Hey drop on out think she left the coronas...

Have a bit more nawing to the stomach today...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Can do I will depart the ofice at 4pm from, sussex... should be home by 5:15 will air the dogs and head into sturtevant

got it

on the way

well today is a tad rougher... lonley... spent 1 1/2 hours cleaning and reclaiming my house... but right now i just fell lonley...

Jim

It is quite normal to feel lonely. So don't fight it, just wallow in it a bit. Good on you that you did some cleaning and reclaiming.

I was very lonely at first, but then go used to the solitude. Plus I made a big effort to go out with friends, workmates, neighbors, etc.

yes and it stinks.. to put it midly... is this the withdrawl she is feeling, if so i can understand her alittle... Met with another member form this Board tonight that helped but generally i am just in a down mood... I just hope tommrow whe go to MC she dosn't tell me to Kiss off...


.

Better today.
IC went good... Tracked down and spoke to exW from 10 years ago, she finally told me why she left, damn near killed me... she Heard I wanted another gal to come over and join us... I said i am far to jelious to share, i have no reason to lie after 10 tears that was never going to happen... ExW
Said I though i mentioned it to you... I said I think i would have remembered that conversation! In any case things in that marrage how it ended what i saw, finally make some sense and I finally got closure. Woo Who one point for me!

Then talked to IC about current stich with ww wife... I don't know, don't understand, trying to figure it all out... mind mumbing... we discussed talking with my dr about a med change to something the does more against the anxiety will be speaking to him about it monday...

WW came in for the MC shortly after this and was on time... she is very angry spent most the time bashing me, thankfully counsler was redirecting and making some explanations about how "men work" (counsler is a GAl)... maybe she heard something...

she is not going out this on our anaversary this weekend... is "busy" moving into her appt and getting settled... has a new phone will text me the number... but I am to wait for her to call.. if she wants to go out she need to set it up to start... Her boundries... what a steaming pant load...

counsler asked me how i felt I said well she has first offer of refusal, but if she isn't available i woll not be sitting home talking to the dogs and feeling sorry for myself. I will be living in the now and trying to enjoy life.. So tonight I take the stetson down from it box, dust off the boots sprice up the shirt, tommrow i hit the barber and get a hair cut and see if he can give em a flat top again... Then I am off to the honkey tonk to have a beer listen to some music and have some fun...

begining to wonder if plan D isn;'t the best route... growing weary of thaking the abuse... Is it worth staying the course?

what is the time frame i should give WW to come out of the fog. Is there a time frame most come back if they are comming back?

She has pretty much said don't call me i'll call you.... I don't see much upsude at the moment

feeling blue today, i ahve this gnawing in my stomach that she isn't going to be comming back...

bump

hey just wanted to let you know it will be alright no matter what happens you will be a better man.

No contact broken! WW emailed OM, thank god OM fired a broadside and told WW wtf do i have to tell you to leave me alone! he said if I was your H i owuld have you tossed onto the street... if there are pros here i will email it to you for advice...

Ken,
Stay the course. Your description of this email exchange sounds like your WW is lonely in her new situation too. I am thinking that at this point it may behoove you to create some distance/pursuit dynamic. Your WW is has decided to move out, fine. She is feeling good about her decisions to make herself independent and strong blah blah blah...

OK so you want to be a big girl out on your own? Sounds good, have fun.

So Ken creates himself a schedule for every day of the nect two weeks. Fills every hour with some sort of activity. If you cannot think of something for an hour, fill it with hard physical exercise, wear yourself out physically. You make yourself too busy to even think about WW much less talk to her. As long as she knows that you are waiting around to welcome her back, she will feel safe in her decision to abandon your home, she knows she has a safety net. I am not saying to completely remove it, just make her think twice about how her life would be if the safety net (you) was not there to catch her when she falls.

ok questiuon is this consider nc broken i am guessing so...

Also since OM told her he wasn't intrested in further contact abd is basically moving on and wants to beft alone would it also be considered NC reestablished?


On a side note, I visited the barber and got a nice haircut..
W was cutting my hair, I now my flat top looking sharp and crisp again . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ken,

Don't worry about NC in your situation. Obviously OM wants nothing to do with your WW. Any further attempted contact will not be the "juicy" stuff that will keep your WW addicted. Withdrawal is occuring. I'd be more worried that she might start looking for another online OM. This OM is no longer a threat to your M. I would continue to plan A her for a while, even if you are separated. Whenever you come in contact with her be upbeat and kind. Once you can tell that she is getting really comfortable talking to you, then you think about going to plan B. You need to give her a little more taste of what she'll be missing before you plan B her.

nice to see you back Jim...

Well there isn't much I can do concering t w and her online antics. I did spruce up the doo and i have been trying to be nice when the opportunity presents itself.

Her voice mail sounded a lillte flater the normal maybe a tad down in the dumps...

the question i have is she isn't obiviously listening to me, but would she have been listening to OM and would his Broadside and telling her to get her act togeather and work at and "nothing is set in blood between you and H" get through the fog?

It didn't get through the fog completely, but it probably pierced it. It's going to take a lot of plan A, no quality contact with any OM, and possibly plan B to clear up all the fog that your WW has surrounded herself with. It doesn't just disappear all at once. It takes at least six months.

jim check you email

I am also worried about the wrecking crew (Sister and Roommate and friend) who are advising her to dump me... they sheem to be pushing her...

You've got mail.

Don't worry about them. They aren't going to be able to meet her ENs. If you can, they won't have much influence. All they are able to do is enable her A, but right now that doesn't seem too likely.

another thing... the WW mentioned i can get rid of the Minivan and get something else... she knows i hate it, as i used to always drive 4x4 pick-ups.. well with fuel prices that isn't possable today...

WW also has mentioned she liked the manly indepandant "kinda redneck" guy I used to be... I think she thinks I am wimpified...

Well i do hate the minivan... So I am considering doing what she suggests and dumping the minivan and buying a 07 mustang, they look sweet and have a considerably more testostorone to them you know... .

So what do you think? Might not that help my "image" giving her back the guy she saw and fell in love with... the manly redneck...

Jim,

I received your email and have some questions...First, is the OM really 17 years old? She knew he was 17 and she claimed to be 23 and single? And...she is still trying to contact him? Regardless of whether she is "addicted" to the OM, she doesn't realize that a 44 year old having a relatioship with a 17 year old is very, very wrong?

I have to say there is a lot more going on here than the "typical" EA, and she has problems that go way beyond typical marital dissatisfaction. She obviously has some serious, serious issues. Is she going to IC on her own? She needs a lot more help than you can give her. I would not be surprised if she is not suffering from some sort of undiagnosed mental disorder, bipolar, narcissistic personality, etc...

Left to her own devices, this lady will crash and burn, of that I have no doubt. All you have to do is sit back and watch (and wait) which I know is hard, but at this point you need to take care of yourself, and those kids as much as you can. I really feel for them.

you have mail

ok pros question time...

In our seperation it looks like WW is begging off next weeks MC, she also hasn't given me a new phone number and when she calls blocks caller id... it appears she is going semi dark on me... She has attemped to reconnect with OM without success,h he is giving her the heave hoo...

is her going dark normal? Can any of the pros tell we what to expect next or what course this normally runs? and how to react to it...

I am tired of reacting... i want to be prepaired and know what to expect!

I am starting to think i am a history question as far as she is concerned...

well she called today along with *67... said maybe will give me her phone number tommrow she is changing cell plans again...

says she will stop by with the kids after 6 to sign taxes.. and so i can see the girls... again we will see...

she told me happy anaversary go figure... i am still hoping the pros here will try to show me what is likly to happen in the future... so i can be prepaired rather then adapt...

bump

well ww stopped by to sign the taxes today...
she isn't wearintg trhe wedding band or the dimond...

god that sure was a kick in the gut...

now what... I do feel so lost...
Jim

You'll need to give this more time. Don't expect too much, too soon. It is miserable at first, but does get much better.

Your wife needs to get a real taste of her new living situation. She will find out it is not such a fantasy life afterall. But please give her some time.

I wish I had your optimism.... But i keep haning on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Spoke to Dr Harley today on radio show (76 min into stream), He is recommending I move to plan B. Says WW was A renter and is now a freeloader, and hasn't commited/bought into marrage... He is sending me SAA and Buyers/renters freeloaders for me to read before going into to plan B then I am to call him back and tell him How it goes...

OK pros I need to devise a bulliet proof plan B. I would want to wait a couple weeks so my med change (anxiety) kicks in...

That is interesting. Not the typical advice around here.

I listened to your call, and I agree with everything that Dr. Harley said. Continue to plan A your WW for the next few weeks while you read up on your books and prepare for plan B (letter, finances, etc.). Then go to a dark plan B and show her that it is SHE that can't survive without YOU. This will get your WW off the fence.

Yes, be sure to do some planning for Plan B. Since your wife is still quite friendly with you, it is going to be difficult. Your finances need to be in order, her things removed from the home. Try to think of anything that she might use to contact you, and take care of it before Plan B.

If anything, the fact that the two of you text a lot is going to be your downfall.

Also get a Plan B letter ready and post it here before giving it to her. Remember, no LB's, angry outbursts, or disrespectful judgements.

I will plan the plan b carefully, Finances are already secure, do have to remove a few of her things/her sons things from the home... My sisters happly volenteered to pack her out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We don't text alot, it really is my only contact for the moment. a few a day maybe...

I well post the plan B letter for peer review by the experts after reading the books and when ready.

I also need to think hard how long I will be in Plan B until I proceed to plan D, personally I think the odds are less the 20% she will ever return... As it was said she was a renter that became a freeloaded...

Then again seperation is getting easier every day, I do miss having prople around and of course the nookie but I don't miss the walking on eggs feelings, constant cleaning up after kids, constant noise. And generally not having my needs met...

The high note today, I meet the WW for dinner tonight... I asked her if she could on her way past the pet store (on her way) grab a bag of dog food and I would pay her at the resturant... she said sorry, I am broke until payday.

She never had that problem when she was with me.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure she will have lots more problems.

AT dinner, don't talk relationship talk. Don't talk about renters and FREELOADERS. Just be yourself and try to have a good time.

I hope you right

Well WW now has a myspace and lists herself as single...
Another wonderful day... life is sure starting to suck...

Is anyone out there that can say there is any hope here. Anyone evermade it back from where I am? It is really lonley out here tonight.

Hey Ken,
I never was quite in your shoes, but I may end up there. I would say that there is still hope. Your have been plan A'ing and I would guess that from your WW perspective, it has been almost all carrot. Once you have planned for and gone to Plan B, she will then start to see the stick, what she stands to lose if she continues her actions. My WW did and may still take it for granted that her safety net will be there to catch her if she falls. I think that because you HAVE shown her that you are willing to forgive, she is testing the waters knowing that she can always go running back to you and you will accept her. Plan B, a dark plan B and conditional return may get through to her.

Once she does not have your support to rely on and fall back on when things get too tough, she will start to see the DISadvantages of the life she is choosing right now. The thing is, I would guess that she would ask to come back soon after a Dark Plan B is started to see if the safety net is there or really been pulled away. If you do not hold her accountable and require demonstration of her commitment to restore your marriage, she will think it is OK to walk all over you. It kind of reminds me of a 3-4 year old child testing their boundaries. Firm, consistent but caring enforcement of the boundaries is what establishes the behavior pattern in the child. Right now I see your WW actions as very childish.

I hope you do not let the lonlieness get to your and undermine your resolve. Call your buddies, go work out so you crash into bed exhausted, schedule "surprises" to do with your kids, KEEP BUSY. Your WW will need some time for the truth to sink in and you need to keep strong and not let her actions dictate yours. I ended up needing to look at myself as an addict of my WW and break my own addiction to her before I could help myself. I would do things that were unhealthy for me in order to get a fix of her. Don;t make my mistakes, stay strong, execute your plan. Give us status reports on your plan, focus on what you control and not what she controls. I get more hope every time one of my BH peers tells us about their triumphs living as upright men and good fathers.

Had another Talk with Dr Harley, on the 1230 segment today, He brought things into perspective. WW is going down a road I cannot follow. I deserve so much better then what I have recieved, and I refuse to settle for second place any more, not second place to OM, or computer games or kids...

My MC/IC also agrees, she dosn't see WW making any effort to reconcile, lots of talk but no action...

So in about 30 minutes from now I will be letting WW know if she wants the divorce I will grant her one. I actually feel at peace for the first time in months, I will no longer have to deal with lies and mis-truths, no more deceptions and mind games.

My dad always said better to be alone then in poor company, he was so right.

Jim in Milwaukee

HUH??? I think you need to get a plan and stick to it.

what did Dr Harley advise you to do? keep on plan A? go to plan B? or D?

He's very experienced and most times seems to be right on the money. Why not consider following his advice?

from your post, it sounds as though Dr. Harley has advised D?

i'm surprised by this since the A was an EA and D-day was not long ago. you have only been in plan A for a short time.

well he said this is probably the "Real" her and do I want to walk this road, I said no I don't, it wasn't what I bought into... Then Dr. H said basically then you know what to do...

I will re-play the show was on at 1230 and post details tommrow but now i need ot go out and Kick it... i actually feel great and in control for the first time in months...

check out my myspace... http://www.myspace.com/jimmer42

Dr. Harley is probably advising you as he is because the two of you haven't been married that long, and there are no kids (human anyway).

That is one thing that kind of bothers me about the MB site. Frank Pittman says that a high percentage of affairs happen in the first couple of years. It seems like if people just give up, the D rate would be even higher.

maybe this is because, although you have been in a committed relationship with this woman for 7 years, you have only been married for a little over a year

(your 3rd marraige and her 2nd)

also, i just heard the rebroadcast

your wife is living with a lesbian and has listed her sexual preferance on her my space in a way that makes you wonder

still listening

here's what i got from listening to the call

Dr Harley says she is the kind of person who will jump out of a relationship much earlier than she did in her earlier years (1st marraige was long term)

she is seeing symptoms in your relationship that makes her feel like she's ready to jump out

Dr. Harley suggests that this may be a reflection of her true personality type... impulsive, irresponsible, fun loving...at the expense of her future

If she sees you as controlling and abusive, anything that you try to do to win her back, she will see as controlling

there was a discussion where they suggest that what you view as "taking care of her" may be seen as smothering her

you said that she has said this

they suggested that you listen to her

"if you were to just let go of her, she may just come back because it is the logical thing to do"

he does say there is a question to ask....is she is the person you want to be with for the rest of your life.

they then said they will talk to you during the break

can you recall anything shared during the break?

"Dr Harley says she is the kind of person who will jump out of a relationship much earlier than she did in her earlier years (1st marraige was long term)"

But what does THAT mean?

what i got from the conversation is that Dr Harley believes that as his wife has been through a few relationships where she wasn't happy and made the decision to D, she now makes that decision early and easier that the first time she made it

as soon as she starts to think that this relationship might be another one where she isn't getting what she wants

the rebroadcast has just started over. Ken's call hasn't replayed yet and still has a while to go before it is going to be player if you want to listen and see what you get from it.

i'm listening right now...got in right during Jim's call...

Dr. Harley said he would talk to Jim during the break and let us know what they concluded...here's what he said when he came back...he never really addressed Jim's issue...that was disappointing...

Why resist a change that would inevitably make both marriage partners happier. But people resist it because they don't think they should have to change because their partner married them the way that they were. However, change is required in order to have a great marriage.

that was it...

You pretty much summed it up in my opinion.

The important parts I think where the last 2 sentances and the break...

"If you were to just let go of her, she may just come back because it is the logical thing to do"

and the question i must ask myself....
If this is her "true personality type " is she is the person you want to be with for the rest of your life.

Well the answer #1 aggreeing to give her the D is as letting go as I know how to do. She has long ago quit trying.

Answer #2 If this is her "True self shinning through"
would she be the woman I would want to spend the rest of my life with... That answer is No... While I do love her, I do not like the selfish self centered person she has become this past year

Additionally durining the break DR. H called her a survivor, a chemelion... and with the M she got comfortable and showed her true self...

so i guess now time will tell...
she actually said today it was my fault she was so busy because i turned off her cell phone (made he get her own plan) and wouldn't pay her car insurance... Made it wound like it was my fault and that not paying for her forced her to work and so she couldn't see me... Dang I though she moved out and didn't want anything of mine... Did I miss something? Dahhhhh

She saw plan A as controling and minulitive... But yes she knows I would have taken her back providing we recovered the M...

I am skipping plan B and heading stright for plan D The saftey net she may have thought was there has evaporated... She wants to be free, I will set her free... And yes it appears she is starting to feel the sting of loosing her main source of fininacal stability... you sleep with a dog don't be suprised if you get flees...

On top of that I am now playing hardball, I am taking care of Jim and frankly enjoying doing so... I sold the mini-van today and got JIM a 07 Mustang convertable (Pics of it are on my myspace page) then to get the point accross that her saftey net is rapidly disappearing I went over to her Appt. and showed it off... She always said she missed the "indepandant redneck" I used to be. Well today she saw him in rare form... I asked her if tommrow (when we discuss the D settlement) if she would like to go for a ride <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am proceeding on with my life as if she won't be in it... If she wants this M and this Man she need to fight for it and chase me. Cuz this rebel boy is heading for the door...

Oh call me Jim,,,I don't care if she reads this and knows who I am anymore.

She stopped by today to talk about an amacable D settlement... it was diffrent... she came in and gave me a kiss, we went through some of her stuff, and sorted for goodwill and what would stay and what would go... She removed more of her stuff but still "forgot some too...

We talked about the D, She didn't seem as much in a rush she said she thought we needed to be seprated for like 6 months before we file... she said i shoudl look into it in the next couple weeks and let her know... It seemed she didn't have the urgency she has had in the past... like she wants the D but isn't in a rush either...

We talked alot very calmly. she siad she was comfortable in the house for the first time.. no tension I could feel at all..

I sat her down briefly and said if I needed to let her go so she could be happy I would, but that I also thought we could make it better then ever if we decided to... I told her I never want to make another selfish demand, disrespectful judgement, ...again, and if i slip up she is to immeadatly let me know so I could make amends and appoligize... She actually seemed to listen.

Later she looked at my myspace page and kissed me again and gave me the "Look" (the good one where the eyes twinkle) I havn't seen that in some time...

I must have been kissed a dozen times today, it almost seemed like the old W was out of the fog for a moment...

I took her for a ride in my new car and then let her drive it, she held my hand and enjoyed the ride, and liked driving the car... she really said it was nice... She said she will see me tuesday at MC...

So heck I don't know. now what...

I am thinking I will drag my feet with the D until she presses me about it... then I go back to plan A... Just a more mellow and less intense version... Also it seems the anti-anxiety meds are finally kicking in and i am relaxing more...

thoughts?

OK Ken - why are you separating if there is hope for your marriage? You would be better living together IMO if there is hope for your marriage.

I think your call is being replayed right now - sure sounds like it to me.

i listened to the call again and i wanted to add

you said that your wife's concerns even before plan A were that you were controlling and disrespectful

the harley's pointed outthat you need to "HEAR" what your wife is saying when she tells you her feelings

and that you need to ask her what things she finds controlling or disrespectful so that you can avoid these things

have you said anything about this to her?

you also said that she isn't opening upduring counseling, maybe she is afraid that your reactions will be judgemental and disrespectful?

have you read the harley's book about love busters?

i ask only because this is my biggest fault and i bought myself the book!

Here is James Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" plan -

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.
If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.
Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.
Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.
Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.
Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.
To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc.
Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!"
This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.
If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."
Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.
"But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure."
It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.
If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.

I would agree however it wasn't my choice it was W chioce to seperate...

I have been trying "hear her" I have been trying very hard... I/we have done the LB worksheet, so yes I do know to some degree what her complaints are... I have the LB book and have read some of it... Will get back into it tommorw...

One problem unmentioned problem I think is my impaitence...
Another was anxiety when it went south all though that seems to be comeing under control with meds...

oh see open up at counsleing with both barrels... the problem is she often won't tell me her feeling at other important time. I do value her opinion, i think some of this is left over baggage from previous marrage.

We also have mis-communictaion issues per the MC, she has been translating Man speak to womman speak and vice versa...

I htink she maybe relaxing a little cus i am detaching and not as hyper-vigilant...

Jim

a bump

Last post... at mc WW said she she is done and wants a D...

I said i don't talk D. and gave her my atty name... I meet with my atty his retainer Tuesday .

Thanks for all the help!

Jim...

single again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Jim,

Take it easy... I know you are hurting right now and you've helped me out a lot lately. I would be more than happy to listen when you want to talk.

Jen

What else is new? It's time to plan B her *ss and have her come crawling back to you. If at that time you want to take her back, that's your choice. Time to get the plan B letter posted on here for us to review.

ken

i'm not saying that your situation is like mine

but it's been 3 years since my H said it was over, he was done, and he wants a divorce

sometimes the WS can't have what they want when they want it! That's what got them into this mess.

the laws in your state may require a waiting period since YOU are not at fault and are not the one wanting the D

and a good lawyer can usually find ways to buy some time

that's what you need right now....some time for reality to hit her

this is not the time to give up...this is the time to plan B

because this lets her see exactly what a D will be like before she actually IS Divorced

it gives her time to "try out" the reality she thinks she wants.....with all of it's consequences

Jim,
I don't know anymore, I am tired of hurting, tired of being played. our MC (Kim) asked her stright up if she wanted to D or to try... she said D, when the MC spoke of the D her face lit up... it was funny she actually said we might be able to "Date" durining the D. The MC was floored and said you will diviorce him and you expect him to go on dates? She said she would recommend against that to Him as it just opens Him up to more pain... She said this guy really loves you but do you "Love him"... it got quite...

I said W I talk marrage here that is what I pay Kim for... I said for D I have an atty and that is what I pay him for.
I asked Kim for a peice of paper jotted down my atty nane and said have yours call mine... I said you can file immeadatly and there is a 120 cooling off period, I said we can be done by June just in time for you to move to Madison with the kids after the school year... I also said you can file, and do your own dirty work, I won't do that for you.
She started to cry and goit up as she left I said I won't call, write, speak, said if she need to talk to me about the D talk to my atty... he handles that.

I don't know if i want a plan B her, if she come crawling back we will see, but i am not holdding my breath, or looking back... time to move on...

If she come back (whitch I doubt) will take some major consessions. I know I can do better... I deserve better.

Jim

I don't want to waste anymore time or money on this woman.
to much hurt to much distrust.

She put me on wavers and I cleared them, I am a free agent. I took my Ring off today (she came not wearing hers) I think the last act I will do is to mail it to her and say so much for promases. I am tried of lies...

Pretty raw right now. I really don't like her very much anymore, I think she just broke the bank....


Jim

Wisconsin is a no fault state, she can file now and then there is a 120 day cooling off period after which it goes on the docket, All indications are it will be uncontested, cut and dry, 99% of the personal property has all ready been relocated, and since we were togeather so short a time period there isn't much to haggle over...

The good news is I have learned so very much about marrage these past few weeks. I learned about what I can do to improve myself, so in the future if there ever is another Mrs, Jim she will get a new and improved Jim,
I will use the tools I have been given early and often (EN,LB Rec questioners) and not make the same mistakes twice...

Jim


The only thing i don't understand is why did she cry?
She finially got what she wanted.

when does the pain stop?

Ok, i don't know what i want anymore... But since i dispise indecision. I have decided when I meet my lawyer tuesday. I will likly retain him if need, then I will do exactly nothing, providing there isn't undue legal risk in my doing so. Then I will wait until WW initates the divorce, and respond... It is cheaper that way in any case, No filing fees, no cost to serve, no cost creating the divorce action...

In the mean time while I wait for WW to serve me divorce papers, If after a peroid I find I am over the WW and she hasn't served me, I will finish it at the time and place of my choosing...

This weekend I will pack her few remaining items out and place them in the garage for storge. I will get a new kitchen table etc...

I am moving forward with my life... If I find someone intresting that i would like to pursue I will... I will do what I want, when I want.

If as some suspect WW will come crawling back, I will cross that bridge when it comes... Personally I don't have any faith this is going to happen. But who know... Then i will have to determaine if I want her back.... As i said the Luv bank is rather overdrawn at the moment... Is this a plan B maybe, minus the letter, I am not expending any more effort on this anymore, it is now her turn to do the heavy lifting if she decides to make the marrage work.

Jim

I doubt that she will initiate divorce. You are still very early in this. Please get a plan, and start working it. You have talked Plan A and divorce, and you have been here only a month.

Chances are excellent that she will be back, so work on your conditions for that to happen, and whether you want her back or not.

well my current plan is this:

1. To get my lawyer and to protect myself legally, then wait and do nothing. This is providing waiting would not hurt me legely. If / when she moves out of the area, or is about to move out of the area (after school is out) I will file to prevent having the case in another county where my lawyer dosn't work.

2 If /whenI have determained I would not take her back under no circumstances, i will file.

3. Until then according to the MC I am not to Call her, email her, write her, text message her or iniate any other contact with her.

4. I will take care of Jim and move forward under the assumptuin she is not comming back. I will do the things I need to do to live well and be happy.

5. I will get tested for STD just in case she had a PA without me catching it there is a rumor....

6 If she comes back (i have serious doubts) providing by then i would want her back... she needs to prove to me with her actions and deeds that she is 110% committed to me and marrage, no more internet games, full disclosure, and transparency, a change of employment away from the home wrecking (man hating) friends she works with. follow the MB rules and guidlines...

I think that does it for me..
Jim

Yep! Sounds like a plan!

Hey Jim,

I can see you're a bit hurt, p*ssed, and indignant at all that has happened. It does sound like you have a plan, which is great. It's on paper now, make it happen.

A few thoughts: Sounds like Plan B (officially) needs to happen. I see your MC advised the same. Have you given her a Plan B letter and truly gone dark?

Also, approaching this with a "get away from your man-hating friends" attack will prolly not go over well with her. Demands never do - and I'm sure you realize that. I hate my WW's new friends with a passion. I personally feel it's better to let your WW move away from the trash friends, make it her idea. My WW is starting to do that now, it hasn't gone unnoticed by me.

Dictating that she can't play computer games and such will prolly not be a winner either. If you get a chance, check out His Needs / Her Needs and read the chapter on Recreational Companionship.

As for the MB principles, I wouldn't try and force feed that. On another post a person asked if they should give their WS the book "Surviving an Affair". The recommendation they received that I liked the best personally is to subtly "leave it out in the open" for them to see, and maybe they will pick it up. Maybe they won't. His Needs / Her Needs is an excellent resource as well.

Definitely don't let her know about your posting here, WS's almost ALWAYS hate it - that will turn them against MB or feed their stubbornness.

Just my rookie thoughts,

Jay

Jim,
Please do not even think about a relationship with anyone right now. This is a great time for you to work on YOU so that one day- after you are over WW- you will be in a good place to move on.

Hi Jay,

I am offically in the anger stage of recovery according to my MC/IC. Yes I am rather tired of it all.

WW clearly indicated she wants a D, I said if she wants to talk D she needs to talk to my lawyer I provided her his name. I don't want to be difficult but that is why I have him. When she does file, I expect the process to be pretty cut, dry and quick...

Yes I have gone dark as of Tuesday, My M/C also says it is her opinion that my WW has moved on and I should stop all efforts to communicate with W. So i see no reason to have contact with her. as I said, I really don't have anything more to say to her.

A plan "B" letter, what I would say. Frankly right now I don't know if I want her back... I loved the gal I dated/married but I have not seen that gal in a while now. I don't know whom took over her body but I have no use for the person she has become. I am tired of lies, and mixed messenges and being made to blame for everything.

The fact is she lies when the truth would serve her better and be easier... And now I have zero trust in anything she says... What do i do with that. She says she isn't online yet i see she is on her myspace for like hours, i know she is chatting to other men or was before she went private.

I am also not sure I really want her back... I know I don't what the current version back...

And if she would want to come back (and I doubts she will) then what? she has poisened her friends and family kids etc...

I just don't know...

[/quote]

Jim,
Please do not even think about a relationship with anyone right now. This is a great time for you to work on YOU so that one day- after you are over WW- you will be in a good place to move on. [/quote]

Well I am not going to like search someone out... but you know if someone comes along who treats me right and makes me feel good inside... well a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. I don't plan on pining for the STBX and waiting around like a love sick pup... while she is chatting up every tom, [censored] and harry...

Jim

Your plan sounds okay to me, although I wouldn't spend a bunch on an attorney just yet. As I keep repeating, you are very early in this. Your wife will probably want to return.

So looking for other women will only multiply your problems.

Learn to live by yourself. I know it is hard, but will be the best thing you ever tried. You are a good man, good looking, good job (should I keep going? LOL). You will do just fine.

I trust my atty as I have used him previously. I am sure he will provide me sound advice on what I should or should not be doing in reguards to his being retained... I do want to be ready for whatever happens...

Concerning women, I am not looking for a relationship per say... But I would like more friends... As I was raised with all sisters I am very comfortable around women... Now if I stumble accross someone special... Well i'll cross that bridge if I come to it...

I am looking for more friends to expand my support network, to help repair my self esteam, (like some here have been doing) and to have people to hang out with and have fun. Being alone isn't to bad so far, better then I had antisapated... Although cooking for 1 stinks...


Oh please keep going.... flattery will get you everywhere...LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jim

a parting note,,, My first Ship Captin used to say, "dont worry about the threat, be the threat and let the opponent worry about you...

JIm,
Just because she has done wrong doesn't mean that you should. You're still a married man until you're divorced.

It's also not fair to the other person to get involved with them- they stand a chance of being "the rebound girl" and no one wants to be that.

This is a great time to get to know yourself better and work on yourself.

I do hear every word your saying, I trully do.

I wish I saw even a single hint of any desire or intention with regaurds to me and the M. I just don't, she keeps running away as fast as she can. The MC doesn't see it either. Also the MC and WW IC are colleges, it has been mentioned they are sharing notes though she can't say anything about WW to me...

Jim

Well, regardless you do the RIGHT THING and you will be able to look in the mirror one day with dignity.

I went from having SF 2x per week w/ what was then my WIFE at the time to no SF for 11 months after Wife became WW. It was torture after the first 6 months or so as I am a very passionate, romantic and affectionate individual (not bad looking to boot..or so I have been told, ha ha) and we were in effect separated but I refused to allow myself to think that way until the D was over. I am so proud that I handled it that way. My children never saw me with another woman until months after we were D'd and only once then.

Hang in there.

H&P
Your not telling me nothing I haven't figured out. I am a talkitive guy and very on the romantic side as well... I just miss being around people. talking and having conversation you know... Yes I miss thge SF too but that is managable for the time being...

As for me I have no childern with WW. My only son is long grown up...

Jim

just a quick note... having a hard weekend, real lonley, I am really missing having someone to talk to... the dogs just can't carrya decent conversation...

Jim

I hear yeah and they keep liking places you just don't want to know about

I feel the pain. It does get easier as time passes.

Stay busy. That is what saved me. I cleaned and painted the house, organized, etc. I know it is snowing where you are so it will be very difficult for you.

You need to give your wife time to miss you. So far she seems to be doing okay, but it is very early.

i agree with the others...keep busy, work on you. it is ok to have friends and to socialize but be very careful with the opposite sex right now. my marriage ended at least 2 years before he actually left for good. no sf, no nothing for 2 years. just him having one either affair or ons after another. so, essentially, our marriage, even tho i was still trying like crazy, was done for a long time. when he left one would think i would have been ready to date, etc.. seeing i had really been alone all that time. but, i fell into something that really hurt, had sf with that person, and it really messed with my head bad.

i held off until probably winter (this was summer that happened) and dipped my feet in again, but still just was not ready and was finding what i was looking for. too many flags kept popping up all over ya know? not until current bf was i ready. and only because we have taken things very slowly, etc... this april it will be a full year we have been getting to know eachother. we started seeing eachother exclusively last august. but we still are moving slow.

if you are separated, especially legally separated, and since there are no children involved, and if you truly truly believe there is no chance for the marriage, i see no issue in dating. i don't think you have to wait until you are divorced, some divorces take years! but, i would just have friendships for now. the ending of the marriage hurts enuff, add to that getting hurt by someone else too and it just makes recovery that much longer and harder. btdt.

just my blonde 2 cents worth!
mlhb

I've been telling this poster about the people who date too soon, and then their spouse wants to come back. There have been several here, and it leads to more heartache. I think it is much better (no, not easier) to wait until divorce.

It seems to especially happen to the men. They move on, thinking the marriage is over, and when they get very attached to someone new, along comes wifey.

i agree with you believer that it sure does tend to be men who are just right out there dating right away... i don't get it. i was so not ready. i needed to heal and be just me for awhile.

i guess every sitch is different. i don't know a lot about this poster, but his stats show that this is all very recent. being so, i would think dating should not even be on the mind! would he want wifey back should she come back? i imagine he needs to completely decide that as well.

i am just coming more and more from the school of thought that infidelity so taints a marriage. god bless those who can work thru it, have true remorse, and can move on to have happy marriages. i just feel things are so ruined and so blemished after an affair. more so a physical affair i think. this is just me, but when there has been a pa, that person chose to take what was beautiful between 2 married people and tarnish it by making it meaningless by having sf with another person. i didn't want to be touched by what had been made tainted ever again. i gave many second chances, but once i knew my ex had been having affairs, sf was never the same again. i could block the pix of him with ow out of my head for so long. he ruined what was supposed to be just ours. i'd have to say, after a pa, i am of the school of no second chances. too many times i have seen marriages try to work after an affair,only to see the wayward one go wayward again. not worth it to me.

but i just went on a tangent didn't i! oops!

yes, for this poster, it seems def a bit soon to be dipping into dating. and no offense to those who have a myspace account... but oohhhh i just think that place is so not good news.plz be careful!

mlhb

Thanks everyone... I know you folks care and trying to protect me from me.. Thanks...

I readly admit to being a little confused, lonley, un-SF, and just feeling plan uncomfortable... I miss the compainship, having someone to take to dinner, a partner to dance with with out searching the bar... plus there is a blizzard outside and i am stuck inside...

I hear what people say about wayward spouses coming back...
Just assuming for a moment she would come back, what kind of time frame is more or less norma? I mean i waited a year for the last WW and she never cam back, so I don't have much confadance this one will. Additionally when current WW walked on first H (after 18 years) she never looked back either... So I see no indication the W is having any thoughs at returning...

I am working the plan I made. No contact since like Tuesday, unless you count her Son calling me about getting some of his gear from my garage... I made it sound like everything was just "Ducky".

So I am stuck for this moment, I don't know if I should wait to see if W will come back, I am unsure if I want W back, or if i should just proceed down the road of life...

I do know I don't want what we had this past year. I was trying to plan A for the little time we had and I think she was aware of that anyway. However she isn't a leader and everyone of her friends and family is pushing W to divorce...

I wonder if it ins't just easier to cut the anchor line and set sail for bluer water...

jim

well, marriage in general is work. and it is probably easier to just cut that line and move on. but is that what you really want? that is what you have to answer. and... both parties have to want the marriage. she can come back but nothing will be different if she is not willing to work on making it different as well. my ex and i separated twice before, and each time he came back, nothing changed, nothing was different. i would have saved myself a lot of pain if i had just stuck to my guns a few years ago and not let him back. he was not a participating party in the marriage.

if she would not be willing to go to mc, and to work on the marriage to make it better and make real, i wouldn't bother taking her back, even if she came on hands and knees.

you will grow to appreciate your time alone as well. i am in a relationship right now but it is ldr so i am still home alone most of them time (well, completely alone when ex has the kids). you have to get to a place where you can be ok alone before you can be ok with someone else. if i was not ok with being alone, this ldr would never work. we only actually see eachother about every 6 or 8 weeks! we do talk every day so we share that way, but still... you need to get to that ok place in being alone.

hang in there
mlhb

mlhb

I would agree and disagree... concerning being alone, this is not just now... I have never enjoyed living alone (ever) when I was single, I would opt for roommates, even if I didn't need to money wise. I just liked to be around people.

As for the WW you hit the million dollar question. Her problem as I see it is she dosn't verbilize when something bothers her she just goes along unhapply... I have a strong personality, and I need someone unafraid to push back somtimes and balance me...

So far she hasn't been trying in the least, that is the problem in the nut shell, if she desired to try we could have made it I think, but she has emotionally checked out...
Add this to an internet addiction and well it is a uphill struggle.

My gut says to move on that she is long gone...
I also feel the fool, I tried to be so careful and take my time... I waited last time, then had a long courtship and watch closly, to no avail...

It isn't all downside however, I have lost alot of weight and fell much better about myself, I need to drop another 30 and I will be "fine looking IMHO". I know I am a decent guy.


Jim

Another hard lonley day...God this is serioulsy getting old fast.

Jim

Ken313/Jim -

Hey - I am the last person who can probably help. My WW has only been in an EA for 3 weeks, but seems to be talking marriage and a baby with the OM. I am in the house with her. So, I know you are lonely and I am fearing the same future soon for me, but I'll tell you that spending hours and hours around a unrepentant WW is not all that enjoyable. I guess that is not much help, but if it is worth anything, I am concerned for you and hope you can find a bright spot in today. I am also in the big snow and my snowblower broke this morning after no problems for 12 years (kind of like my marriage, but with that there were problems I did not knwo about..). That could have really set me off, but I guess you have to have faith that "everything will work out for the best". Not easy, but that is a phrase I say to myself constantly to prevent myself from getting really, really down.

Good luck.

Ken, I know your pain..it totally sucks...

Ken,
I can also relate... it really stinks to be left. My WH has been out of the house almost 6 months and I still get really lonely.
I haven't read your whole thread but I'm just another person going through the same thing.

Still

Dark 7 days no contact from WW... No indication it is bothering her in the least...

Jim

It is too early to expect anything at all from her. Hang in there, and don't give up. Sorry it is snowing. Stay busy doing something that will make you feel GREAT.

I am trying but it would be nice to see something positive...

So is there an timefreame that I should see something if I am going to see something? Are there any signs I should be watching for...

Jim

Ken,

It often takes a month or so for plan B to really work. What do I mean by really work?

Well, plan B is NOT to get her to contact you or change her mind. It is to slow down your loss of love bank credits. It is to extend the time before you decide to end it, so that the A has time to end. Nothing is going to happen until the A ends and you cannot end it, only she can.

In a month or so, you will find yourself more calm, more in control of your feelings, making plans that suit you. You will find the anger gone, and yes some more of the love gone as well.

Plan B is for you and about you, not her. So don't worry if you don't hear from her, this is your time to go through withdrawal. BUT, a side effect is that OM now has to meet ALL of her needs and as he fails he will withdraw from the love bank he has built up. This will take time, give it time. Gradually, he will withdraw, and the seeds you planted in plan A will germinate.

Stead as she goes Ken. No contact with her right now is very good for you. You will come to see this in a month or so.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

It is unknown if there is an ongoing EA/A. I have no evidance one way of knowing since she left, I would assume that she may have replaced the old EA/A for a new one.

I also heard a rumer she may have had an A or was working on it back in Nov when i was out of town on bussiness...

There was a frind of the kids who was overly friendly... I though he was like 16 turned out to be 25, she took him and sister and lez friend to a concert... I witneseed this person being pretty flirtitious and agressive to W So i said he could never return. Things started heading south a couple weeks later... was tehre an A ????? don't know,, he listens to the music she switched to

I say lawter testerday.Wi is joint propertly state so there is sufficent risk to me finanacally. basiclly she could get credit cards run them up and the bank would come after me... So for my own legal protection, My lawyer strongle recommended filing for D. He has been retained and proceeding on the filing. He said from there I am safe, and i have many options should recoc be possable I can drag my feet, suspend the case (not cancel) cancel it...

So i have up to a year to figure things out... WW dosn't appear to be getting an attorney so far anyway.

Listen to your attorney!

If you haven't done it yet you need to take her off the charge cards, IRA, 401k, and anything else that is in both of your names.

Also you should take $$ out of all joint accounts so you're not funding her lifestyle.

Of course check with your attorney before doing these things, but she can't spend what she can't get at, y'know?

i have that is what I have paid him for... All Checking/savings accounts have been seperated, she has been removed for the credit card annd her card has been cut.
teh uins and 401 are next but not a rush since i have to be dead and past caring for her to get these

jim

Sounds like you are doing what you need to do. It is still too early for your wife to crash and burn. She needs a good dose of not getting any needs met by you. Keep it up, and are doing well.

Acutally doing pretty good the past couple days...

I looked in the mirror yesterday morning and actaully liked what I saw. I still see room for improvemt (another 30 pounds) but I liked the guy in the mirror. My confidance is starting to come back a little...

My IC says I am doing much better as well, the self esteam is starting to recover... the anxiety is way down... I just feel more perky... I am more in tuned to the presence of pretty females, the anntenna are coming up I guess...
heck I actuially kind flirted with once kinda... (opened a door and complemented her said that looks very nice)

Got to go to work more later...

Jim

This sounds good. Lock up your taker a little while longer and end this with respect, dignity and 180 degrees from your WW by not getting the least bit involved with anyone until this is over one way or the other. You will look at yourself in the mirror someday and remember how you handled this disaster.

Atty called I need to come in and sign the filing, man this hurts!

Spoke to WW EX Childern are reporting D is iminent....
kids are reporting everythjing is great and WW saying M was a mistake...

WW saying "she isn't the marrying kind".....

WW says she thinks I may go crazy and loose it.
Won't happen.

Sure hurts but all indications is WW has checked out and moved on...

Man this stinks.

jim

bump

Ok a question for other BS/FWW

I been told here by some and have a couple of female friends who think WW will be back before it is all said and done...

I was hoping you could tell me how long in your experence and from the experienbcs of those here (a time or window)
is more or less normal if a WW is going to return that they do make an effort to return.. and at what point is it pretty much a lost cause...

jim

I am a WW, and I can only tell you it took me about a year to get out of the fog,and am completely recommitted to working out my M,although I'm not sure my H is anymore,but I am fighting for it!Just don't give up on her!I'm sure she still loves you but it's hard to see that when you're in the fog!During my A I knew I loved my H,just took a while to come back to reality!She'll be back!

Ken 313,

Dr H states that most A's die out anywhere from 6 mos to 2 years. Are you able to stick it out that long/

That's the best I can offer. I wish you all the fortitude to endure this.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Well D papers have been filed...

There is a 120 cooling off period, then maybe another month to get on the docket. Our divorce is cut and dry no kids no monitary disputes... We will likly be divorced by July or on the outside August. If WW makes no strong moves toward reconcellation between now and then it will be over... Of course the million dollar question is will I want her back, I guess it will depend where I am at the time, how I feel, how she acts and how she owns up for leaving and how see makes amaneds... She will have to show me I am her #1 and only, she will have to show me she is making a 100% life time commitment or I won't go there again.

If your asking if I am willing to wait and put my life on hold for 6mo, 12mo, 24 mo for her to get her act togeather...

Honestly I highly doubt it. I am guessing but unless I see some effort from her and some hope she wants to make the M work very soon... I will move on and get back to living... If she trys to come back after... I don't know.

The fact is every day she is gone, I am feeling better about myself, stronger, and frankly every day she is gone some of the love leaves too. I am keenly aware I deserved better. I also know there are ladies out there who won't treat me this way.

So unless she gets her act togeather soon she may find Toby Keith's song says it all...

It’s a little too late
I’m a little too gone,
A little too tired of this hangin’ on
So I’m letting go while I’m still strong enough to
It’s got a little too sad
I’m a little too blue
It’s a little too bad
You were too good to be true
I’m big time over you baby
It’s a little too late

Update...
WW will have been gone 1 month tommrow, I have been a Black Hole since 2/20. Only one call to WW that was to ask for her lawyers name, lasted 2 minutes max, No R talk No small talk. Just who is your lawyer (none) ok my lawyer will call when you can sigh or he can serve you at work up to you... ok you will pick up... ok bye click

Wow another good day!

Definatly making progress, feeling stronger and stronger, more confident, upbeat even... I actually laughed and smiled and joked about the stitch today. Difanatly coming out of the niose dive and climbing back to crusing altatude! Anxiety is completey gone I would say. No Xanex since in like early the last week...

I feel like Jim again, well the pre-Bobi Jim anyway (minus chasing skirts)!

Went to the C+W bar this weekend and had a really good time, had a couple shots with my faviorte bartender Kathy, talked alot. She is pissed WW left after all I have done for her...

Then low and behold this Drop dead looker was flirting with me (she was with her BF who was to Busy BSing with his friend). She was standing real close and inside the normal comfort zone (maybe a foot), rubbing elbows, bumping into me, and popping a million candle power smile... When I left (alone) she said my bday is the 31 come on out I'll save you a dance... well I didn't act on the flirting just was receptive, went with the flow and was nice/friendly...

Man what a boost to the self esteam. It has been so long since I felt desirable in all this crap and to have someone (a stone fox to boot) chatting me up, well it felt darn good...

I have also made a friend (lady) we shared coffie at barns and nobal... Ok before the lectures start...

I know I need to be careful... WW is meating Zero EN and love bank is slowly draining...

The longer she is gone, the further she is in the rear view mirror...

I realize the new friend is meeting a couple ENs (converstaion, rec) since we talk and did coffie, and grabbed a bite... However she knows the stich and is like Believer and has even wagered a $20 bill WW will be back, me I took the smart money and said she won't be. Still I need to ne aware she is meeting some ENs... Of course right about now everyone is meeting more EN then WW! I mean the vet is meating more EN the WW... So unless I am a monk....

Anyway just wanted to report in all isn't lost...

Jim

Ok i think we all now the stick.
W and I have been seperated since Feb 6th (1 month). I have been dark since Feb 20 the only execption being 2 brief phone calls concerning the divorce action, asking for her attorney, and scheduling the meeting to negoate the temporary order.

I haven't done a Plan B letter since I didn't know what I should say that hasn't been said. I don't want the D.

I would perfer to reclaim our marrage and make it into what we had both dreamed of. I realize, I have issues and I have been doing my best to address them, (anger managment class) etc... she has issues too as everyone knows.

So should I write some fashion of plan B letter indicating,
my hope for and belief that the marrage could be saved and even better then before if we both choose to do work on it. I am willing to meet her EN and refrain from LB.

What do I say? I don't know of an active EA/PA at the moment.

ok pros i really need you help asap!!!

I am guessig things have deescalated some since the seperation. How do I proceed?

Jim

Jim,

I don't think it will hurt at all. In fact, I think it would be a good move for you. That way things will turn out good for YOU no matter what. It also sends a message to her that you indeed do love her and would like her to return - under conditions! NC, for one. You know the deal: NC for life with a plan to establish and maintain NC.

It is a love letter too, so that's why I say you can show this act of love. It may be the last act of love you show her - but you will feel good about doing it, and she will read it.

So, yes, I recommend you doing it. And I'm no pro, just someone who follows your story. I think it would be the best thing for you to go into a very dark Plan B and start to move forward, thoughts of her will consume you less, and you will feel much better.

Jay

You mean you don't have proof of any further contact with OM, right? According to your initial post, you had proof of an EA, possibly PA, yes?

As far as a plan B letter...what are your conditions for considering reconciling with her? Write them up here before you send anything to her.

Jay

I have a very high confidance the original EA is done.
OM was enforcing the NC... (wants nothing to do with her)

Now if she has established any relationship WA/PA since departing I have no way of knowing. Further I cannot spy as WI law says I cannot impeed (part of the divorce order)

I understand the love letter part, i have been very dark since the 20th, only contact has been brief (less then a minute) about divorce bussiness (asking if whe has a Lawyer, scheduling the meeting between her I and my lawyer for the temp order.)


Owl,
I am 99.9% sure the EA with MR 17 is over and there will be NC enforced by OM.

The possible PA was only a rumor from her EX H, that he "heard" something, No way to confirm or denigh it.


I guess the basic terms are the same as when we married.

We each recommit to have a 100% monogiomus emotional/physical commitment to the other person.

We choose to place the spouse as the #1 person in each others life.

We return to marrage counsleling and re-commit to eliminate the problems (LB)and meet the other spouses EN's as they need them meet.

When there is any problem/dissatisfaction with the other spouse to immeadatly bring this to the attention of the spouce so we can correct it to both persons mutal satisfaction, and not complain to friends family, who can't fix it.

To become the couple and have the marriage we both dreamed we would have. To work togeather and find our own way where we are consistantly both winning! Win-win or no deal.

We can do this by applying the MB tools. something like that...

When we are again back on the right track with each other and in aggrement with the above princibles we would resume cohabitation, and suspend/cancel the D..

Ideas...

Jim

I spoke with my IC/MC just now, she advisded that if the plan B letter would allow me to know I did everything I could, and to prepair me to move on then write it. She also said she dosen't beleive in her professional opinion Bobi will be back. She said she isn't 100% right, but that she is right a much higher % of the time then wrong.

It is her opinion that the W has moved on and desires the divorce. She did agree to be the intermeadary to contact if W desires ro Recon.

now what...

uggggg no commnets? no advice? bump...

Well, my opinion is that your plan B letter isn't telling her anything she probably doesn't already know. In your case, right now she's got no desire to keep contact with you from the sounds of it. That means that plan B isn't going to affect HER much...but it might save YOU a lot of heartache. Since she's apparently not actually involved in an affair at the moment, there's not much other pressure to change her mind on things right now.

Let me ask you this...you've been here long enough to have learned about EN's. Since you're not meeting her EN's right now...who is?

I think that any 'plan B' you do now is totally for you to get away from her. To give you time to heal. Your situation is a little different since there doesn't APPEAR to be an active affair on going...but honestly, I'm still not convinced. Unless there are some other factors in your marriage that haven't come up, its normally not usual for a spouse to just up and leave and stay gone when no A is ongoing.

Hi Owl,

I am pretty much in aggreement, Done a lot of thinking about this and I would rather not be rejected again. W is well aware of my position.

Yes I know about En's. I have no ability to spy. . What I know is she is still active on the internet, maybe she has started another EA, or maybe she turned Gay and her lesbien roommate is meeting them or maybe she is having an PA that went undetected, or maybe she left and had a PA in the Cue... I really don't know and frankly at this point I don't want to know the answer...

Complete seperation is helping me recover that I do know. My IC has moved me to every other week. I saw My GP doc today, my BP is back to normal, everything is looking normal, mood is good, anxiety is non-existante (execpt when i have to see or talk to STBX)... My GP ran an STD screen on me today in case she had an undetected PA. I want to be able to hit the reset buttion and prepeir to move on with life.

Since I know about EN's I also know my EN's are not being met... That is getting old real fast. Some would say wait... Well I have given a lot of thought to this. I have removed my ring, I am going to start dating again if the opportunity presents itself. This waiting is for the birds, it gives her to much control over my life.

The way I see it she put me on wavers, she walked away and cut me loose. I don't owe he nothing at this point.

If she dosn't come back (my bet) then it just dosn't matter, she dosn't care. If she comes back and I am not involved well I have a choice to make and Ill cross that bridge if it comes, if she dosn't like that I have been dating that is her problem she cut me loose I didn't. If she wants to come back and I am involved with someone who meets my EN and isn't LB, well I guess she is odd man out, still not my problem. becareful what you wish for dreams can come true...


I just know it is time to move on. Damn the torpeios and full speed ahead.

Jim

Well we did the lawyer thing today and signed the temporary property settlement...

God she looked great... She said I looked nice and asked what colone i was wearing and said it was real nice... (I was wearing new colone) She Even said the girls checked out my/our web site and noticed how much weight I lost and mentioned how good I looked...

the meeting proceeded pretty well... She started crying when she signed the pepers... We now have about 5 months and we are divorced...

After the meeting we stoped at the car and talked a few minutes, I gave her some mail and colone for her sons left. I gave her the concert tickets I had for her as I wouldn't go without her, they were for her said you take a friend, or what ever and if know one will go you have my number...


Then We talked briefly in my car... She offered up that she isn't seeing anyone one (I did not ask). things are going well with the girls... they don't have internet so she can only get on when she sniffs a wireless conection. said life is better without the computer more quality family (I have only been saying that for a Year) playing games and yatzee monopoly...

I Basically did a verbal plan B. Said I don't want a D but if you need this to be happy I understand and I will let you go. Told her I still love her and always will.

I told her I though we could make it good again if we both tried. Said we had 6 good years, 1 hard one... I said as the raw nearves heal if she re-thinks things and wants to give it another go She knows Kim's number (MC) and my number and we could resume MC and try again. Also said if we wnet back to MC the seperation wouldn't end until the M was back on solid ground. But we could postpone the D or cancel right up until the gavel knocks, all her choice. But i would never be #2 again I willbe her #1 and only 1 or nothing at all...

Said in the mean time I am moving on. said if she want to see / talk to me she knows where I live and she know my number. But i wouldn't be calling.

She aksed if she could come by to get the rest of her stuff maybe this weekend...

She cryed again, said she loved me leaned accross the counsel and kissed me twice and went to off to work...


OK what does all this mean? anyone hazard to guess

Jim

The night before my wife moved out... (she had already announced she was moving out the next day) she cried, and cuddled with me, and I think we had SF. and she cried that she didnt want to hurt me...

and the next day, she packed up and moved out.

if she really "loved you" so much, she wouldn't have signed the divorce papers.

I don't know where my wife's head is at these days. but I do know that on that day, all the apparently intimate words and actions from her... meant nothing. They had no effect on the course she had already decided to head on.

So, i wouldn't try to understand what those words and actions from her meant, on that day.
See what she does the day after, and the day after, and the day after...

Well she knows I am am heading for the door, new jeans, new shirt, new colone.. she knows i got an STD check yesterday said I needed to hit the reset button so I know what is what (she has HSV2) and I need to know if I am carring it or not...

I guess her actions over the next few weeks will tell...

Jim

PS: sounds like your divorce will "quickly" be finalized.

be a strong man, and cut out the "dating" stuff, until it is.

Ken313:

Well, it's the famous final scene isn't it?

She will be gone, or she will be back.

Leave it at that.

Give her a plan B letter.

State your terms for reconcilliation.
State your reasons for loving her.
State why you can love her again, if she returns.

Your verbal plan B doesn't really count. Because that isn't tangible, that's why it's a Plan B LETTER.

Then wait for a response. And if it never comes, then sign the D papers in 5 months.

Your still married to her until then. Ok?

Ken- As I've told you before, take this time to figure out how you got hooked up with a woman who ended up treating you so poorly after you were so good to her and her kids.

We don't know if she will be back or not, but let's make sure that you don't get into another situation like this.

Bobi.

This will either be the the first Love letter of many more to come or the last. That decision is in your hands.

I love you with all my heart and my soul, I have from the beginning and I do today. I have no desire to divorce, my only wish is to be your loving husband until my final day on this earth comes.

This past year has been very difficult for me, as you became entwined in the fantasy of Runescape, James and everything, you just stopped spending time with me, this was one of the most painful periods in my life. I missed the closeness and intimacy we used to share, I lost my lover and I lost my best friend.

I also acknowledge my own shortcomings that may have led to your escaping to runescape. I should have told how just much I loved you, I should have told how truly beautiful, and sexy you are. I should have been a husband who allowed you to fell safe enough to share anything with me without fear, and I should have listened better and heard you when you spoke. I should have stood strong for you and not listened to others when it came to your well being , for my mistakes I ask your forgivness.

Bobi I know iIf given the opportunity, together we can overcome anything, we can move heaven and earth together. We can rebuild our marriage. We can make it into what we dreamed it would be. I truly believe we can make a life together where we are BOTH eternally happy and fulfilled.

The conditions for our rebuilding our marriage are very simple.
We turn off the damn computers and look to each other to fulfill our needs. We recommit to each other to be the others one and only true love and make each other the #1 priority in each other lives. We turn to each other and seek each others counsel and agreement on any decision. We jealously guard and protect the others heart and feeling as if they were our own and defend each other against anyone who would harm us or our marriage as a lioness defends her cubs. I know this will be hard, but I also know I will do what is required of me to make this happen. That is my promase to you. I will also do what is needed of me to support you in your efforts to make our marriage a blessing.

I have already made my choice, that choice was made July 3rd 2001, it was affrimed on Feb 11,2006. You freely choose to take my ring, you freely choose to become my wife. Will you now freely choose to take my hand one more time and fullfill the dream that out marrage held when we place the rings on each other fingers?

Until you make this decision, we must remain completly seperated, without any contact, ( execpt in the event of an emergency, or meet legal requirments) I do this to perserve the love I have for you until such time as you decide to come back to our marriage. If you desire to contact me please contact Kim.

I love you BooBoo, and I hope you will choose to be with me forever.

forever yours
Jim

bump

Ken,

Not much of a PBL expert.... I'm shpuld be posting mine soon. Did you check out LilSIS letter at the beginning of her thread?

Also maybe ask Lunamare...she's the one I was told is the PBL expert per se

Also on my thread I'll check the page there is an outline to see if you included everything.

I'll look over your letter again but I'm no expert.

Still

Hey Jim, I am no PBL expert or any other kind of expert, just wanted to pipe up that I think you are doing what is necessary and we have your back. Reading some of the other stories here it seems like Plan B is tough at first as you go through withdrawal but then the peace of not having to plan A and get [email]cr@pped[/email] on while you do it helps maintain your sanity. I think you have grown enough as a man that this will be good for you. I have kept up on your story and while I am not an expert, I think that your WW has been eating up all the EN meeting you have been doing. She will really miss it when you go dark.

Hey Ken,
Shoot me an email.

I have to say... that if you need to mention an internet game in a plan B letter... your wife has some serious issues and is terribly immature. I'm sorry you are dealing with this stuff.

I am sorry too... she is 45 trying to be 25...

jim

check you inbox

dog check your mailbox

Plan B, it's a letter letting her know your M is important to you but you can't be 4ever hers because now she is a Ws.

Let her know you love your W but NOT the WS. Read your letter again and see if you can remove some of the confusion. Remember it will be read via the eyes of a WS.

Don't make plans or commit to a WS, just your real W.

L.

I know make every day... I know..

It is now what 6 weeks she has been gone and no indication, not a hint that she is comming back, she hasn't tried to make contact, nothing maybe there was someone in the wings undetected... Oh well I honestly think the marrage is toast... she is gone for good...

Jim

That is a good Plan B letter. It is still much too early to know if she will come back, though.

How are you holding up? Hope you are not going crazy.

Most days pretty well, Occasionally when i stop and think about what was I miss her a lot, so i try to keep from stoping and dwelling on it...

I do wish I had your confidance... Maybe becasue I only see the negitive actions...

I am just going day by day moving forward as best I can... Ill cross the "she returns" bridge if I get to it.

Until then I am living under the assumption she isn't coming back. I think it is emotionally safer for me that way and it doesn't leave me open for further rejection, hurt... I have had enough of that for a long time to come...



Jim

just checking in,,, not a bad week will need a New IC she is resigning UGGGH I really liked her,,, otherwise doing ok...

Somedays Good samedays not as good but IC saus I am making great strides... agrees WW mayne having an undetected says not many things execpt abuse (not may case) cause someone to switch like WW did... oh well

Have court date now Jul 9th it is over if WW dosnt get it togeather...

More later

Jim

Well I sent the plan b letter Via email, I will probably mail a copy as well.

I do think it is probable she has had is having a PA with whom I can't say...

I am still hurting from all the D triggers this week (letters paperwork for the attorney) It has been hard... Will the plan B letter/ plan B itself work, I don't have much faith or hope it will. But I can now look myself in the mirrow and say I have done everything I could have done...

It is funny I don't miss the bad times we had at all, I do look back and miss the good times however greatly...


WHat happens now I guess is in her and gods hands...

Jim

((Ken))

I'll soon be giving my letter also. Not sure if it's really a plan B letter. Thinking more of it's letting you go letter. Sort of like what's recommended in Love Must be Tough.

I don't have much hope that my M will recover. At this point I don't want the man he is anyway. The only way I recognise him is the way he looks and his voice. But otherwise inside he's not who I fell in love with. His eyes are so empty. For someone that wanted this D and already in another relationship, he doesn't look very happy.

In time I think we all will heal.

Still

well i hope it would hurry damn up, i am tired of hurting inside...

oh is email ok or do In need to do hard copy too?
Jim

Ken,

I would also give a hard copy, also make a copy for yourself in case you need to send it again if she tries to break Plan B. I have photcopies that I'm holding onto... just in case he uses it to try to make it look like I'm keeping our kids from him. So the whole letter can be read in context.

I know I wish time would hurry up. It's very tiring going through this. My emotions are all over the place. I mean he's been gone for 6 months now. I've known something was wrong for over a year. I frequently ask myself when am I going to feel healed?

Still

Leave it with the e-mail. Don't send the hard copy. Since you already sent it, sit back and wait. It's hard t/d but you can do it. So be patient. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. You are going to need all 3.


take care,
L.

I hear you Ken. I am stuck in Limbo Land myself. I am trying to Plan A a woman that no longer lives with me and doesn't have a whole lot to do with me. I don't think I can give Plan A 6 months under these conditions. I may be joining the Plan B crowd shortly myself. Hang Tuff.

Distractions work best for me. I stay as busy as I can and visit with as many people as I can. Lately I crank up the stereo (No country music, It will bring you down, I use hard rock, It garbles the brain) and do everything around the house that I've put off forever. Also, for anxiety I drink 2 beers and smoke a cigar. I do that everytime I get worked up. Keeps me from prescription meds. I fight depression with weight lifting. I'm starting to get cut again and it feels good. It is also a fact that exercise helps with depression. Something to do with chemical releases in the brain.

I also spend to much time on this forum and that helps the time pass.

Later

Flash Flash

It seems there may be an PA with a dude manned Michel. I have a copy of cozy Pic (dog has seen it) I have re-visted phone and text mes logs on cell phone bills and if the phone nuber we suspect belongs to him the volume is extreamly high Trying to confirm. But it is looking ver strong at the moment, there was also rumer of an A in Stevens Point, With him and WW... will dig some more... if i find there is an affair do expose while in plan B?

Jim

hope to contact OM sister she talked to WW EX H girlfriend obiut the A

More to follow... but I am in plan B and in divorce how to proceed need help ASAP Please advise

Jim

If you're still wanting the M then yes, you have to expose if the A is ongoing. I don't know about coming out of Plan B though. That's one for the experts.

Yes, expose in plan B. I would do all the usual targets, and confront your WW once in email or letter form (not in person) letting your WW know the reason you exposed was to save your M. I would let her ex-H, parents, family, and friends know the reason she is divorcing you. I would also expose to OM family and spouse (if there is one). I would also include infidelity/marital misconduct on the record for your D and name OM personally. This should negatively impact their A.

If you choose to expose...you need to make sure that the people you expose to clearly get the message of WHY you are exposing!!!

Make it clear that you're asking their help in re-building your marriage. Tell them that you're not doing this to be vindictive or hurtful to your wife...on the contrary, what you're asking is for their assistance in talking with your wife and getting her to end her wayward behavior and to give your marriage the chance it needs to recover.

That message can go a long way in defusing the situation. Your WW can try to play the anger game, but its hard to play that when the message that everyone got from your exposure was that you are hurt, but you love your wife and are fighting for your marriage as hard as you possibly can.

I exposed like this in my situation...and I knew nothing about MB at the time. I simply reached out to as many of our friends and family that I thought might be able to get my wife to stop and THINK about what she was doing. And in my case, it paid off.

I think that doing this exposure is also going to put your plan B on hold...because you can expect your WW to be furious and attempt damage control, and you'll be forced to deal with that. Exposure is NOT normally part of plan B as I understand it...normally, it's done in plan A.

It might well be worth your time and money to call the Harley's and get their take on how to manage this...seriously.

Hey Ken...

Quick clarification: is this fella Mike whom you've just discovered (who is also the PA in Stevens Point), the same internet EA and fella she broke NC with?? In other words, is this all one OM or is this OM#2??

If this is ongoing A with the same OM who has been plaguing your M from DDay #1, I would say exposure to parents, family, friends, inlaws, and pastor/minister is appropriate even in Plan B. Once you have confirming evidence, I would expose along the lines of:

"I am saddened to have to tell you that WW's A with OM is ongoing, and it is tearing our M apart. I have recently received irrefutable evidence that proves that this is not just a friendship, and despite all my attempts to be a better H, WW persists in this adultery. Yes, WW and I did separate and I have had no contact with her because I was advised to do so by my infidelity support group. She would not end all contact with her lover, and after repeatedly lying to me and telling me that she had, I needed to protect my heart and save whatever bit of love I have left for her. This was my attempt to show her what she was throwing away by chasing her A partner. For the sake of our M and our commitment to each other for life, please help me in encouraging WW to do the right thing, end her A, and return to her H. I love her dearly and want to save our M."

OTOH (on the other hand) if this is OM#2 whom she met after you two separated, I suspect you will have a tougher time with "exposure" only because some family/friends morality and values might be, "Well, you two are separated so she's free to see whomever she wants." I can't say that I AGREE with that, but that is sometimes peoples' attitude.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

It is OM#2 (OM#1 is a minor cyber EA who thought his WW was 25). I'm gathering that she was talking to OM#2 BEFORE she separated.

Correct this is OM #2 the A started 2nd week Oct based on texr mgs and trelephone logs, and was heating up by november. I have information she took him to a bar and a very cozy Pic from OM myspace page taken on the love seat in my home when I was in Germany...

I have commenced operation exposure II
Called and told her dad and sent the photo I found... Gave my evidance dates time places offer him the phone logs he said he didn't need them.... He said he heard they "were over chummby"... Asked him to support the M but I understood if he couldn;t... Don't know what he will do and don't expect much help but oh well he said he will talk with Bobi's sister and brother and see what they can do... Said I still don't want a D called him Dad said I still believe in us... Said I still love and can forgive but not forget... said the window is still open but don't know how much more I can take before it closes... Hanging in tough...

Then talked to her son pastors, and sought his advice, he will be trying to help... will talk to her son and see if she will talk to him... Gave him the full stich even my imperfections LB and all. Told him my evidance, Her oldest Son lives with The pastor and she has always respected him... has known him for +20 years...

Don't know what other cards I have to play. mailing thr plan B letter hard copy will indicate I know about the affair with Mike...


Ok what else...


Jim

just mailed the modified plan B

Bobi.
This will either be the the Last Love letter I ever write you or one of many more to come... That decision is in your hands.

I love you with all my heart and my soul, I have from the beginning and I do today. I have no desire for a divorce, my only wish is for us to be happy and in love with each other, I know this is possible if we both tried.

This past year has been very difficult for me, as you became entwined in the fantasy of Runescape, James You just stopped spending time with me, this was one of the most painful periods in my life. I missed the closeness and intimacy we used to share, I lost my lover and I lost my best friend. And yes I know all about the Affair with Michael T, this was the most painful of all, I just recieved the finial peice to that puzzle...

Bobi, I acknowledge my shortcomings that may have led to your escaping to runescape, James and the affair. I should have told how just much I loved you, I should have told how truly beautiful, and sexy you are. I should have been a husband who allowed you to fell safe enough to share anything with me, I should have listened better and heard you when you spoke. I should have stood strong for you and not listened to others when it came to your well being , for my mistakes I ask your forgiveness.

Bobi I know if given the opportunity, we can overcome anything, we can move heaven and earth together. We can rebuild our marriage. We can make it into what we dreamed it would be. I truly believe we can make a life together where we are BOTH eternally happy and fulfilled.

The conditions for our rebuilding our marriage are very simple.

The Affair with Michael T must stop, and you can never have contact With Michael T again. We Return to counseling.. We turn off the damn computers and look to each other to fulfill our needs. Recommit to each other to be the others one and only true love and make each other the #1 priority in each other lives. Turn to each other and seek each others counsel and agreement on any decision. Jealously guard and protect each others heart and feelings as if they were our own . Defend each other against anyone who would harm us or our marriage. I know this might seem challenging at first, I know I can and I will do what is required of me to make this happen. The question is can you? I will also do what is needed of me to support you in your efforts to make our marriage a blessing.

I have already made my choice, that choice was made July 3rd 2001, it was affirmed on Feb 11,2006. You freely choose to take my ring, and you freely choose to become my wife. I just ask that you think about the past 6 years, Will you now freely choose to try one more time and fulfill the dream that out marriage held when we place the rings on each other fingers?

There is still time to save and rebuild our marrage, but it is growing short. Until you make this decision to end this afffair, and resume counseling we must remain completely separated, without any contact, ( except in the event of an emergency, or meet legal requirements) I do this to preserve the love I have left for you . .

Kim is leaving so if we did decide to try to resume counseling it would need to be with someone else.

I love you Booboo, and I hope you will choose to be with me forever.

Jim

Ok last question... How long do I give this to work?

OK I have exposed to her Family.
Exposed to her EX Hubby, he said he will have her 2nd oldest son Call me, will tell him if I get the chance he is 20, Eldest son 24 will probably know soon from Pastor he lives with and whom I have solicited aid from...

Her younger sister, and roommate, know about the A, and are enabing it, no good exposing there. What else, who else
do expose too...

Shoudl I email the OM and let him know the jig is up? Expose there... Tell the Kids teachers and expose there too?

Tell the baby sitter..

Jim

Expose to the OM and find out his family and expose to them as well. I don't think you need to expose to the kids teachers or anything, but if they ask you why they are having a hard time, it is okay to be honest.

Good chance OM family knows, the finial tip came from OM sister (good christen) via grape-vine basically knew WW was married and in an A with brother and did some digging until she found someone to get the Msg to me...

Will tip off OM shortly... phone is off so cant leave Voice mail, maybe text will work or email... will let him know the Jig is up.

The modified B letter (above) mailed today... WW should know tommrow and know that I know...

do I expose to babysitter, (the couple lives like 4 doors down)



please advise...

Jim

[color:"purple"] HOW you expose is important

wording something like:

I am saddened to tell you my sweetie is having an affair. It's been going on for (length of time).He/she refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my sweetie, please do what you can to get him/her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

[/color]

the discussion was very much along those lines listed above just was verbilly done... I have a big heart and love her dearly. Ijust want my life, love wife and family back... I am hurt but not angry, I can forgive though not forget,
The M can make it if we work togeather. I asked for their support in saving the M with what ever influance they may have ... Bla bla bla... I did say i don't know how much more internal damage I can take..... And time is growing short...


Jim

Spoke with Dr Harley today.
I have 2 choices walk away as this could be a dangerious Trend and I could be in for many more hurts like this to come... Or I come out of plan B move back to plan A try to fight for my M and win her back.

I told her I know of OM said I recieved a phone call/information that was convincing. I am not asking how why or what, I am convinced... The only thing that must happen is it needs to end.

I made a date for coffie tonight, I have chosen to fight one last time to win her back. Pray for me... I need all the help I can get... This is the last round, if it dosn't work, I will walk.

Jim

I meet ww for coffie at 7pm. she agreeded...
I need input and guidance by 630 CST
This is I guess the last hurrah.

will purpose recon how and why... pray



Jim

Did Dr. Harley say why he advised you to move from Plan B back to Plan A?

Actually, I can see why he told him to go 'back' to plan A. He's not had nearly sufficient time to do a thorough plan A. And without that, his plan B isn't going to have a chance to get her to start missing those changes he'd implemented.

I know plan B is to 'protect the love that the BS has for the WS'...but it's also supposed to create that withdrawl for the BS in the WS's heart to. And that normally only happens if there's been a stellar plan A prior to that.

In this case, there's still hopefully room for plan A yet...make sense?

But I think Dr. Harley first advised him to go to Plan B. I remember being surprised. Just confused now.

I had forgotten that...too many threads to keep straight. And now that you mention it, I recall that, and had the same reaction you did.

I'm curious what the good doc is thinking?

I'm sorry...I'm still a little unclear:

WW had an internet EA and D-day#1 was 12/06. This was a fantasy EA involving an online computer game and never really got to PA, right? That EA did not end, and there was D-day#2 2/07. While all that was going on, she was having PA with OM#2 since 10/06. This was "proven" and there was D-day#3 yesterday. Before it was proven, she moved out 2/6/07, and asked for D 2/20/07. And Jim, you went into Plan B on that day, right--2/20/07? Since then, YOU are the one who filed for D 3/2/07...not her?

Here are my questions for you. How long did you Plan A? What did you do in your Plan A? How did you contribute to the environment in which your W had an A? What steps have you taken to deal with yourself and your issues? What do you want out of this? What steps have you taken to achieve those goals?

The reason I ask all this is because from what I can decipher, this is a pretty complicated case -AND- most of what YOU are doing seems like a reflexive reaction and not a carefully thought out plan. Thus, I thought if you wrote to reply to me, maybe you could put some of that down in writing. What exactly IS your consistent plan?

Your faithful friend,


CJ

yup you have it about right...

Internet EA also all info i have been given points to a PA with OM#2 (phone logs/text logs support this as does a pic etc).

I filed for d to freeze marital accests wi is joint property state.

Didn't give her enough affection, intamate converstaion...
Though I was always on the plus side of the EN according to her check sheet...

Big problems was LB however, disrespect judgemnts, anger outbursts, talking over her...

I am working hard at these even in her absense... I have lost 70 pounds now, taken anger managment class, been in IC, much stronger internally, calmer, more open minded...

You are correct I am much more reactive then I would like to be... I recieve many mixed messenges... but not much positive action.

Basic Plan is to better myself for whatever the outcome.
plan A basically minus her to see it, though she said today she sees positive changes.

Hope the WW will re-engage at some point, but I have doubts. Hope she will talk to this pastor friend of hers she trusts and maybe he can make some headway.

I really can't do much execpt better myself, I have no ability to control her actions...

I think if she would re-engage and just try we could work through the M and be good... I am willing... Her... I don't think she has much confidance it can be made to work... She has I think given up.. She says shee still loves me just can't see how it can work... that is my best read...


Jim

I asked this pastor friend and he will talk to her, She also agreeded to talk to him... He will get back to me after he sees her heart... pastor is Pro M! If she is trully done with I will let her go and move on...
It is in gods hands

Ken,

What happened?

And why did you think this was your last hurrah?

It's not over until the judge says it is...even then...

I don't understand how you perceived DrHarley saying you may not want to fight for this marriage because you'll be vulernable to more hurt, since she's done this more than once? Do I have that advice correct?

I ask because because you're different than last Feb...you're different...makes everything different. Look at you! You've identified LBs and ENs, gotten into IC, are posting here, owning your stuff...living in the present (mostly)...working on revoking your permission to react and your permission to act...

To me, you've got two solid footholds into reality and thriving...and you're not in Plan B...you're not dark, right?

And boy, you blew me away when you stated truth about OM2 instead of asked for it.

I can't tell you how appreciative I am that you're here, of your choices.

Really cowboying up, IMO.

Big kudos.

And I think I'm reacting to your posts from a wistfulness still in me that my BH didn't do this...so thanks for the reminder, I gotta share this with him. LOL.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

DR H thinks this may be a patteren caused by poor impulse control... that could make for a rocky painful road for me... But if I choose to fight for the M i need to come out of plan B into Plan A. Unfortunalty she isn't have any contact with me and has recieved the Plan B letter... so now what would make me look weak if I retreat... I don;'t knwo how to plan a someone who won't allow it or dosn't want to do much about it or admit the A...

I am as you said, I am working on me anger managment, loosing weight (now 220 down from 285 in Nov). Taking care of ME New clothing, colone, car, my old haircut, dressing better... Try to live in the now, but have my down days when I just really hurt from the loss too...

I have exposed again, Her family will do nothing to help they never liked me to start with and with her rewriting history that is more like hate now...

The pastor I spoke of will meet/talk to her and she says she will talk to him... we will see what her actions are.

Yes I told WW on the phone I know about the A with OM...
(Pastor know as well and what evidance I have too..)

When she started Gaslighting , refused to admit the A said he was trying she was fending him off... I said stop... I have just recieved compelling evidance... Didn't tell her the evidance... But said it was compeling and conclusive and I wasn't open to debate or discuss it , i saw what I saw and I know what I know... Also said what is done is done, and what is is.. said the M can be restored but the A must stop and we need to return to MC and time was running out... I said you didn't like the last MC we can go to your pastor friend... she has known and liked him for +20 years... .

She didn't like the B letter said it was controlling , I countered no it is working togeather, that isn't control since you are part of every decision, every discussion. She said still loves me but can not see how the M can change and get better, be happy... She did acknowledge seeing positive changes in me however, said she knows I am willing to make more changes to make her happy and I could make her happy... As always a mass of jumbeled confusing messneges, and lies... Then she canceled Coffie later said son was comming to town...

Through the chat, I spokly firmly but softly, no anger, no yelling, no lbing... Just quite conviction...

The pastor is my last hurrah... We need to make some positive progress toward recon or in need to start having some closure... I really can't take much more damage without relly getting messed up inside... This I do know...

Jim

I'm just sending support Ken. You are doing great! You've really got your [censored] together. Regardless of the outcome I'm confident that YOU are going to be just fine.

Good Luck

Ken/Jim...I am really dependent on screen names...so this is confusing to me...(about me)...can I call ya Ken?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Plan B has no contact except through intermediary...doesn't have the phone discussions, emails or any of your light into her world.

And no, you don't go from Plan B to Plan A at all...

Guess I'm asking why are you choosing to not be dark? Every vibration of your voice meets an EN...each time you listen and repeat, does as well...Plan B is cutting off meeting all ENs...even financial ones.

How dark can you get?

I don't know what to say about poor impulse control at all...am I correct in understanding these A's have happened over the last year and a half? Beginning with one and rolling into another? Or are you saying that you may believe she's been having fantasy EA's in head for longer? One-sided or not owned ones?

I know in my own history that when I got fully into the wayward state of mind the last time, it lasted nearly a year and half...not the one A...the state of mind...beginning with a trigger event...my first born dropping into Iraq...and so I focused on the news, drilled holes through my marriage and then began an A...even after I ended the A (not from waking up, either) still full of entitlment...and barreled on with the whole divorce, separation stuff and scrounging to find a replacement for the replacement...yeah, talk about poor impulse control coming from entitlement, which gives permission to disintegrate people with my eyes...

I have solid impulse control now...thanks to MB, MC and a whole lotta books...and to God for giving me a huge wake up call...

I believe poor impulse control comes from not having boundaries, marital or personal...and focusing on developing and predetermining your boundary enforcement steps would be a great way to spend the dark time.

Grieving takes time...a whole five-step process (with a lot of backtracking)...knowing your grieving to heal helps a lot...

I can tell you that refuting is of no benefit to you...it's an LB in my book under DJs...because you're telling her what she believes, thinks, feels, perceives isn't valid. And it is...the hairy part of this is to repeat (if you weren't in Plan B) and then state your own truth...not refuting...two people sharing. Practicing this, not taking her truth as yours...is essential to injecting respect into your life premise and greatly benefits recovery.

I see you as not only are you breaking your darkness...you're also telling her she's wrong...and she may have heard she's wrong a lot pre-A...helps fuel entitlement through resentment and lack of respect.

I don't see in your sigline how long you've been married, if this is your first or second, ages...children born in the marriage and their ages...

What do you mean more messed up inside? Plan B is to protect you from all contact...so you can focus on you, your healing, studying and knowing...when you break your darkness you sabotage your intent and your goal...and you're choosing to do that.

You don't see progress in Plan B...you're dark. You gave her the PBL laying out all she needs to do to find her way back...no negotiating...no meeting with MC's...you're dark.

How is your own IC? Pro-marriage? Do you guys address your power, your limits...choosing your actions from a personal code, not based on possible response? Does the IC have you doing homework, exercises, reading certain books?

Any inner child work going on?

Appreciate all your sharing and you being here.

LA

Best I can tell he DR H think this could eb a patteran and could be a Repeat WW... and open me to big hurt...

Diffrent then Feb (like one month ago) God it feels like a life time ...

I went dark the day we signed the D temp order but didn't know about OM#2. I waited to send the B letter till this weekend, and did so yesterday... it was posted eailer...

However The OM2 changes things, so DR H said if I want to Fight for M may need to go back to plan A...

Now I am really confused... I send a plan B letter. how do I go back to plan A without look ing weak? Also broke NC to expose that I knew...

Basically told her I know about the OM#2 and the A, didn't really accept any answers, said the evidance I recieved was compelling.. This Pic and OM#2 sister passed word to me from somone who knows me that he was doing my WW (didn;t tell ww source hoever) Then checked phone records 70+ calls +4000 text mgs between them... Works for me... I call that proof enough

those who can do myspace here is the pic I was tipped off to...

http://myspace-064.vo.llnwd.net/01396/46/02/1396742064_l.jpg..

What do you think? Would love your opinion...


I will go back Dark I think unless the pastor I exposed to can make some headway...

But I am really confused at the moment... Broke down tonight first time in a long time... Staying dark is the only way to protect myself...

But need all the guidance and support i can get right now....

Jim

2 EA DD March 06 OM1, Fall 06 OM2, PA OM3 started between OCT 6-15 best I can determaine formavailable evidance...

Broke darkness to expose that I knoew of the PA... Must expose it... yes seems to be rolling EA/EA/PA

Trigger seems to be the wedding best i can tell...

I did not refute just said the evidance I was giving was compelling and pretty conclusive...


OK This is M #3 1st ended cuz I married at 19 (young and dumb) Second M ended when I caught Wife with man in her arms and her legs wraped around his waist... Now that was conclusive as it can be...
This marrage was feb 11 2006, she went wacko right after that... we have no kids togeather and we have been in an monogiomus exlusicve relationship (to my knowledge) since jun 2000...


Messed up in side... hurting, confused, lonly, indicesive, one minute want to run like ******, one min what to have her back... Make sense...

My current IC thinks it is time to cut my looses... She thinks WW has check out more or less permantly. Will be switch IC shortly, however she is trying to minimize any more damage to me and trying to pout me back togeather... emotionally... IC says I have a strong , intense personality
driven by a very strong right-wrong belief structure and convictions... I don't need help there... Also my word is bond... I made W a promase, I know God has provided me a get out of jail card, I just still love her and would rather not use it... But may have too...

IC says I may have picked a wonded bird so to speak...
settled for less that I should have... WW isn't strong personality and I my stregnth may intimadate her, even though I am not abusive, condecending, etc... and would give her the world and anything she wants... No inner child work, some goals... Mainly trying to rebuild my shattered self esteam...

The pastor I refered to is Pro M big time has known WW for +20 years, her son lives with the pastors family, work at the curch... he may have some influance and is my last hope I think...



jim

Oh i will probably (95% sure) go bacd dark unless/until the pastor can make sigificant head way with the WW. I can't take much more of the hurt...

Jim

ok I exposed to WW, OM, FIL, Pastor olded S lives with (a +20 year friend) WW EX-H (who is now considering suing for custody of D 1&2) D 1 + 2 babysitter (she lives 3 doors away from me, and Lady who lives 4 doors down (kids play with D 1+2) I even showed the 2 ladies the pic (linked above, all they could say was Mid-life crisis and she is nuts and OMG and Da*n that is messed up)

Don't know who else to expose too... Guess time to go back dark...


Jim

message I sent to OM


I was recently provided/given evidance you have been and are having an affair with my wife Bobi. WTF.

ok advice/support time pros and other people... what else can I do?

[color:"red"] [/color] [color:"red"] [/color]

To expose that I know, place pressure on the A...

I can make a black hole look like high noon if needed...

Thanks I need all the support I can muster... This is very hard, and I don't think I will win this one...

The clock is ticking, the window is not closed but it is closing.

Jim

Hey Jim - did you hear that Dog's wife is back home?

Stay strong man. I am not any kind of expert so I really don't know what I could say. I have been lurking on your thread off and on for some time now. You have shown me incredible strength in the face of some terrible situations. Just thought I would tell you that I am listening and I hope the best for you.
Rock

sorry to threadjack - believer, are you serious about Dog's wife?

NP Eph, I could really use seeing a Winner right now. When thigs seem so bleek.. Go DOG Go!

Don't leave me LA...

The trail is getting pretty hard, rougfh and lonely...

I don't know if I am "Cowboying UP"...

Mostly I am just tryinbg to survive, Living day by day and hanging on to what I have left the best I know how...

I will tell this latest discovery was a real kick in the nads, it was in my house... First tears fell in like 7 weeks.

Frankly I would trade it all for the pain to just stop...

jim

Ps Back to the war with the 1000 yard stare

well had 3 very intresting developments today,

# 1 was with WW #1 son.

Basic content is he doesn't think the situation with OM3 is "physical".. he also dosn't understand what is up with his mom, Indicated mom is just going out dancing having fun acting like she is 25, he seem to say he and pastor are tossing around the term "Mid life crisis" we talked alot about me missing the kids ect. he invited me to his church. I said I will visit...

#2 Later I spoke with the pastor...
He couldn't tell me alot of their conversation but did say they (he and WW) spoke for a couple hours... She denighed an PA with OM#3, admitted to flirtation... admitted to internet addiction... admitted she made mistakes too...
Talked about our problems, she just dosn;t see how it could change and be better... she can't see it right now.. His feeling is that it isn't hopeless, but is bleek... Said she needs space to work things through inside... He said if I pursue it appears like control. If I don't well how do you rebuild the trust... Difficult spot.

We talked about our M problems, I indicated ima de mistales, but was very willing to adapt and change but i cannot remove prior mistakes... I indicated I don't know how to adapt to meet her needs if she dosn't express them or allow me to meet them... He Said that was a good point... he will be talking to her again as an intermeadatary to see what can be done.. I said I am willing to go to MC at any time any place with the counsler of her choice... He said I need to sit back and let her sort it out and time will tell...


#3 here is the responce from OM3 want you thoughs on this relpy.
Jim-

1st of let me just say this, what is wrong w you man? Seriously!

Not that its any of my business but what are you doing reading old text messages anyway? You of all people should know that yeah I am a flirt and if I wanted to I could probably take Bobi from you.

Now I ain't saying thats gonna happen so don't blow it out of context, You have to realize that people flirt Jim and sometimes thats just how we socialize.

I'm sure you've done your share of flirting also this ain't kindergarten and I don't want to disrespect your lifestyle but your a pretty cool guy Jim.

Don't go making things harder for yourself by trying to blame for your marriage failures, and you wanna cry to the world that me and Bobi had an affair please be rest assured it will fall on def ears.

I ain't trying to take your wife away and whatever problems you 2 have its on you, I ain't married and I know well enough that women are unpredictable and people change. Given Bobi's circumstances she didn't really get to live the life she wanted. And having you dictate some of it and constanly being by her side probably just provoked it even more.

When your on a sinking ship Jim its best that the captain goes down with it rather than the trusty crew.




ok pros need help giudance and support tonight...

Will be doing some heavy praying for sight guidance tonight... I am very confused and conflicted...

Am staying in Plan B...

I am giving this one to the Lord. It has become to heavy to carry...


JIm

Jim, I have never posted to you before, and I will probably get an MB 2X4 for this one. The e-mail from that moron would be a deal-breaker for me. That reeks of PA. If this is your wife's idea of an OM, then they deserve each other, and you deserve better!

That e-mail would be all the encouragement i need to go see a lawyer and file. Sorry if this upsets you, but you deserve so much better!

Jim,

I've been in computer heck all week, which means, I was away from my desk and not MBing (da nerve!); hence, my late replies and catching up on your thread. I'm not going away..I know that pain-time is much longer than real time...I do understand.

Back to your history post:

"OK This is M #3 1st ended cuz I married at 19 (young and dumb)"

Okay...married three times. Good to know. You attribute your first divorce to young and dumb? What does that mean? How long married first time? I'm asking to understand what Phases of marriage you've experienced at what ages.

Any children from M#1?

"Second M ended when I caught Wife with man in her arms and her legs wraped around his waist... Now that was conclusive as it can be..."

Second marriage...how long (including dating time)? You've already experienced a divorce due to infidelity...good to know you know that road. Any children from that marriage? How long between M#1 and M#2? Again...this isn't for judgment...it's for clarity.

"This marrage was feb 11 2006, she went wacko right after that..."

Well, this may clarify why DrH advises what he advises... Were you living together for those five years? How many times has she been married? How many children from previous relationships/marriages?

"we have no kids togeather and we have been in an monogiomus exlusicve relationship (to my knowledge) since jun 2000..."

Okay...now I'm back confused with DrH's advice, given the duration of your relationship with WW.

"Messed up in side... hurting, confused, lonly, indicesive, one minute want to run like ******, one min what to have her back... Make sense..."

You've had two divorces...my thought is you're experiencing this level of pain because it's cumulative...from each previous separation...symbolizes abandonment, annihilation (isn't that the worst pain?)...adds to the confusion, cumulatively, as well...the resulting indecision...deep urges to run and have back...makes perfect sense to me.

This is right now. Your brain is handing you a lot more intense signals and what I want you to do is to listen to them, write them down...whatever visual images pops into your head...note them and let them go...may come from decades ago, or yesterday...identification...not deciding, or taking an action...lots of deep breaths, focusing on your own air, existence...you can include rubbing your feet, giving yourself hugs, holding your own hands...these were what I did during this same time...and yes, you're feelings are real, valid...not to be acted from. They are compounded...and necessary. Do some of these centering physical actions (great self-care choices) and see what the images are your brain hands you...or the audibles.

I'm going to pick back up with your IC in my next post...my DH got off work early and I'm outta here for tonight.

You're in my prayers...

LA

What is everyone else's opinion?

Have already filed... i don't what a d I want the W back... but i think she is in serious MLC right now...

jim

Young and dumb as in if I had waited 4 months I would have feel out of love... Married 2 years however it was really over after 6 mo, i walked on this one... 1 child my only son... M at 19 D 21

M2 at age 36, dated 5 months and she asked me ...was married 2 months later... M was good until my ship returned to sea... when I can back from a 6 week cruse caught her messing with another man, loved her dearly,
Didn't want the D, would have reconed, she simply left NC for 11 months and I filed prior to moving back to Wi.

M3 age 46, met may 2000 dated 1 year engaged summer 2001, moved in togeather 2004. M 2006.

She went bonkers after the M... I make mistakes hard year took 6k paty cut, was over working bring ing work home... Lots of job stress... She started changing pretty quickly after the Mt..
Was WW 2nd M 1at was 18 years 1st time. She left him...

I Had severial LTR besides... 1 engagment ended when the Gal slept with a college classmate, after I transfered to Pcola (she was to finish the semister) Severial other LTR that ended due to transfer/deployment... Navy is hard on Relationships...

Jim


....

Jim, why don't you forward OM's e-mail to WW and say only "Just received this from OM, thought you might be interested". The response should really be interesting. I would say if she us really not having a PA, that she would be mortified by his response " I could probably have WW if i wanted her".

not sure it is worth getting into a dailog with the Punk...
or with the WW... right now... They don't know my evidance just that I have it... And my evidance wasn't text message content... It was more like a phone call/ mail/ and a picture with them being cozy... The content of the call, mail was basically saying he was doing my WW... Phone logs ware used as confirming evidance, not primary evidance...

Also who told him I read the text messenges... what he told me (text messenges)?

Also it is obivious OM was given some info from someone... (pastor i donot think so) Then who is left? WW?

Note in his email he mentions my reading text messenges... But what I said to him was...

"I was recently provided/given evidance you have been and are having an affair with my wife Bobi. WTF."

Note my exact text to him never mentioned text messenges, or reading them it said I was provided/given evidance...

At first it smacks of bravado, but on reflection I may have rattled his cage... He assumes I have read them and is gaslighting them it appears... His actions smack of guilt to me but i would like a concenious from the group on that one...

jim

PS a note I am getting the feeling that with the current state of the WW entitment mentality she doen't really care what i think or what her actions do to me. or fot that matter what he said.. I am starting to wish I would just have the courage to get off this nightmare ride, cut myself free and move on back to the living... What am I afraid of? what could be worse then this?

BUMP COME ON FOLKS

Ok here is the latest i just recieved this e,ail from WW..

You need to stop callin everyone and saying I"m having a affair... please! You have to stop this.. I am not seein anyone!! Yes, I flirted.. I admit that! You are carrying this too far, calling ron, my dad, and Michaels' pastor. You need to quit digging in the past and let it go, what purpose is it serving? When your like this...accusing and assuming about things with me, I have no interest in seeing or talking with you. ~Bobi


i think it is done...

Ken,

With regard to OM#3, don't argue with an idiot or you will sound like one. You have your evidence, and you know it. Use the evidence as you see fit, but don't deal with any of the OM. I just doesn't do any good. You make them the "victim" in WW eyes.

As for hanging in there, frankly I would take Dr. H's advice. You cannot fix your W, you cannot control your W, and you cannot make her love or respect you. She has to see the good in you for herself, and she is not looking. This marriage didn't make it a year, your first did not make it two years.

I am guessing that if you are not out yet, you will be out of the Navy soon. Wait and learn. What can you learn? It seems to me you make hasty decisions in some cases and you did not look at the data in others. I know you were with WW for 5 years before marrying here, but I am betting there were clues to her behavior. You need to be able to pick up on those clues.

WHY? Because as you become more comfortable picking up the clues, your need to in control, or always there, or having lack of trust (not surprising given the behavior of your last two W's) will drop dramatically. Hone those skills, and then seek women that you can read well, so that you let them be who they are. I am guessing your WW was not a woman you could read well, probably because her basic nature was secretive.

Just some thoughts, I hope at least a few were of help.

God Bless,

JL

I would like peoples (especally the Pros) opinion of OM reply (do you feel he looks guilty) and WW reply...

Did I rattle there cages sufficantly, from their notes does it appear pressure being applied (esp on WW)...

Is this going to cook my goose further is it a Big LB?


I sometimes think I am toast and just hanging on to a sinking ship...

You folks here need to know just how much streghth I recieve from every reply, from every post and from every confirmation i am doing the right thing... I couldn't do this without you folks help and support! Thanks
everyone!

I am going back dark... won't talk to WW or OM further... Besides, I have nothing to say...


Jim

make up your mind,and then make your actions consistent.

If you want a divorce, then pursue it, and quit messing around. You dont need to be exposing to people, if you want a divorce. That would be just vindictive.

If you dont want a divorce, then DROP IT, and continue in your "Plan A" efforts.

OM #3 told you he's not guilty. Personally, I believe him.

Guilt means you have a knowledge that you are doing something wrong.

Embarassment means that you feel like you aren't responsible for the awkward situation you find yourself in.

Shame means you have let someone else down by doing wrong.

This guy doesn't feel guilt, shame or embarassment.

Your wife sounds lik ehe feels embarassment because of the awkward situation of your accusing her of having an affair. There is no guilt or shame.

I think the only hope you have is with exposure, but I doubt there's much hope.

Sometimes you have to face that you married someone with different values than you.

Cherishing

Techi

I filed becuase Wis is a community property state after she moved out , I would be equally responcably for any debt she occured...

Cherishing
I personally saw him flirting with her, she took him to a bar when I was out of town on bussiness (from her own sons lips to me), she took him to a concert the night I cam home from a bussiness trip (my own eyes) I have a pic of then sitting so close togeather (matching shirts) and huge smiles in my living room they are like glued togeather, i have 4000 plus msg between them, I have 70+ phone calls,

This was after i was called and warned they were having an A... the M went south 4 weeks after he started comming around...

Also we were pretty good for like 6 years... until she changed... her son to me saysd his mom changed and is acting 25 and says she is in MLC...

Ok I could be wrong but the evidance looks allful compelling dosn't it?


Jim


PS if it is over, ok it is over... I will move on, I just don't want to quit if it isn't over... does that make any sense?

so the consenious is for me to just walk away, and move on...


Jim

Jim,

Wow...just finished your whole thread. To go in reverse, I vote for forwarding OM's email to WW without commentary.

I agree about not replying to OM's email.

Now...what are your lines? I don't see where you probe yourself for clarity...my perception is that you very much have lived through others, especially women, and have lived from your feelings.

Hey, I've been there, lived that way for four decades...no bash here. What I'm wondering is if you really want to change your life experience?

So, to clear lines:

"I would like peoples (especally the Pros) opinion of OM reply (do you feel he looks guilty) and WW reply..."

When your focus is on others, your self hurts. I see you attempting to figure out all the ways your WW escapes...to whom, which times...finding the truth of her actions which were hidden. May feel like you're seeking truth...may also be you're seeking others' eyes to look out of.

Your own eyes and intent are good enough, Jim. Always have been. You didn't expose on whim--you shared truth, what you knew. Sounds like you're asking after the act if you were right? Need confirmation from others you weren't wrong or mistaken?

If you shared truth with bias...see, see this is what she's doing...then you're gonna desire confirmation. If you shared truth to say, "This is what I believe is harming my marriage" then you won't. Your truth stands...reasonable, sound and from your intent to live in and from truth. A reality bringer.

What is your clear line on O&H and truth?

"Did I rattle there cages sufficantly,"

From this, I hear your intent was to upset, expose to get a certain response...rather than share truth. Can you see where lines blur if your intent is to control...have an effect, and if your intent is to act in truth and share it? We all have hidden expectations and beliefs...part of a human coping mechanism...when we use it to an extreme, we do damage to ourselves and others (WS's do this). When we don't use it enough, we spiral downward. Clearing the lines of your own whys is crucial to live in balance. Choosing your intent and owning your actions is how you get in the middle.

Yes, exposure acts like light on cockroaches...that's an outcome...you don't control any outcome. When we make our goal an outcome, then we are controlling...takes us believing we are the cause, control and cure...when our intent is to know and share truth and let the outcome go, then we are living in truth, respecting our limits and power, even before we take the action.

"from their notes does it appear pressure being applied (esp on WW)..."

DJs are sneaky beliefs...they harm us as much as they harm others and our relationships. One of the most important ENs your WW didn't seem to meet for you was O&H...I want you to flip that desire onto yourself...in this statement, are you really asking for others to comfort you through divining the unknown? Are you asking to know what you can't know so you can base your actions on theirs?

Settle yourself, Jim, into reality. Know what you don't know. You expose and let the outcome go...that's reality. Outcome has always been out of your control. May feel fearful, terrifying and cause anxiety. That's okay. You can sit with those signals...and trace them. They've been running your life for as long as you've lived. How about not running from them (into others), and not acting from them? Would you consider getting to know them...your own signals...finding out what you truly believe...and if they are valid adult beliefs from your adult experience...or really old ones, from your childhood, stored, hidden, yet making your life choices from?

Being O&H with ourselves is huge...finding what we're really thinking, feeling, believing will tell us why we are perceiving, viewing and reacting.

"Is this going to cook my goose further is it a Big LB?"

Is truth an LB? Can it be? I believe this is where Harley's writings overlap, need more distinction. When you have a marriage without infidelity or crisis, then hearing, acknowledging and validating your partner's concerns (they hate your snoring, lagging on DS, shaving and leaving the hairs in the sink) as LBs. Things which aren't about who you really are...little things (annoying habits especially) you do, possibly unaware, which you can choose to stop doing or do differently. As an act of love.

LBs aren't speaking and knowing truth, living in reality (all parts of who you really are). It is one of the key indicators of living externally...where you hide your own truth in order to not be rejected...which rejects your innocent self.

And you'll know you're doing this when you feel great anger when others hide their truth from you. Because you're doing it. It's where the freefall fear comes from.

Can you write a list of all the ways you LB yourself?

"I sometimes think I am toast and just hanging on to a sinking ship..."

You choose to think you are toast and hanging on to a sinking ship. You choose your thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspective. And then you experience life from those choices, and the feelings follow them.

OUCH! Choose not to abuse yourself, Jim. You don't know if the ship is really sinking or not. You only know your part, your half. That's reality. You CANNOT be toast...and you posted this analogy before as you thinking your marriage was toast. Know your cyclical thinking...so familiar and automatic to you that you don't realize you're doing these false comfort patterns...they often feel like pain and anger, not comfort. Yet, to manage your feelings instead of be aware and trace them, you do this.

Choose to love yourself directly.

Can you find four or five themes in your life? I identified rejection and acceptance...that's like one theme. Do/say this and you'll feel accepted...earn love. Or punishment (rejection).

What are other ones you can identify? How about abandonment/intimacy?

"You folks here need to know just how much streghth I recieve from every reply, from every post and from every confirmation i am doing the right thing... I couldn't do this without you folks help and support! Thanks
everyone!"

I have no doubt you do...we confirm you are whole, alive, worth praying, thinking, writing about and to...can you take a real moment and see where you have always been, are and will be that? Without a word spoken or an action taken...you are worthy, valuable (priceless), whole and complete? You truly are. You're human. What I see as the force that keeps kicking your own tushie is your own foot...you don't believe this inside you...haven't accepted this as the truth of being made human...and others cannot fill you up enough...even those who took vows (and then broke them)...and you're breaking a vow to yourself to love, honor and cherish who you really are...which is one we took at our making with God.

"I am going back dark... won't talk to WW or OM further... Besides, I have nothing to say..."

Here's how you cross your own lines. You are choosing to go dark because _________...to manipulate others or protect yourself? To live in reality or continue fantasy (manipulation is fantasy)...or because you have nothing to say, nothing worth sharing because you're worth sharing?

Or because you feel attacked, discounted, rejected, you'll go dark again?

Getting to all your own whys...not hers, his or any others (these are GREAT distractions...I know...I remember) is how we love ourselves well and truly; and thereby love others well and truly in our lifetimes.

I believe when we are used to others defining us, we accept their definitions because we live externally...and we go through others' eyes to see ourselves. Has daily betrayal in that choice. From your WW's email, I think I see something:

"You need to stop callin everyone and saying I"m having a affair... please! You have to stop this.. I am not seein anyone!! Yes, I flirted.. I admit that! You are carrying this too far, calling ron, my dad, and Michaels' pastor. You need to quit digging in the past and let it go, what purpose is it serving? When your like this...accusing and assuming about things with me, I have no interest in seeing or talking with you. ~Bobi"

All her YOU statements are attacking. I think you're used to hearing these...which translates to "You're in control, you're powerful, you're to blame, you're the screwup" as you statements tend to do. What her half of communication is ends and yours begins...halfway mark. Think about you statements and how full of DJs they are...like you asking, "Am I right?" instead of knowing if you are or not.

Here's how her email would look with ownership...and I do this to share how important this is for every human...and only we do it for ourselves.

"I feel attacked and maligned. I know you called people who are dear to me. They said you believed I am having an affair. I don't believe I am. I don't believe flirting is adulterous behavior. I want you to stop bringing my mind to look at my choices. I feel exposed and fearful that others know what I'm doing. I've felt vulnerable to judgment all my life, ESPECIALLY by these very people.

I feel manipulated and pressured by your choices. I want you to not know what I've hidden from you. I don't want you to love or be in pain because of me. My mind goes to how can you gain from knowing my secrets. My perception is that you judge me and assume a lot about me instead of asking to know. I feel threatened and am not attracted to you right now."

Until you get your own lines clear to what is the truth, her truth, your truth...you won't be able to perceive her email in this way. You'll hear you're powerful in a terrible, wrong, judged way...and that will be your choice, not her doing to you.

Now here was your Plan B letter...

"This will either be the the Last Love letter I ever write you or one of many more to come... That decision is in your hands."

See, I had a hard time with this first line both times. If you're in a power struggle with life...where you see yourself done to or doing to, then you're not living a life of ownership. You could choose to write a thousand love letters to her...would be your choice. Not hers. Shifting power is shifting blame and has no foothold in reality.

PBL's are about YOUR decisions...from reality and about choices.

I do think you may have a theme in your life about blame/power and it may be tied strongly to rejection/acceptance.

"I love you with all my heart and my soul, I have from the beginning and I do today. I have no desire for a divorce, my only wish is for us to be happy and in love with each other, I know this is possible if we both tried."

Would you consider digging deeper into yourself? Would these statements be true for you?

"I do not choose to do divorce. I believe marriages can recover and be rebuilt. I am learning how I make myself happy, choose to love and do not doubt I am capable of being a thriving half of our marriage."

"This past year has been very difficult for me, as you became entwined in the fantasy of Runescape, James You just stopped spending time with me, this was one of the most painful periods in my life."

Can you hear the you statements? What do you feel when she says "you do and I feel"? How does this sound to you saying this? Anything close to "You are the cause of my pain, my joy, my feeling?" How O&H were you with your own sharing? This isn't me blaming...I'm asking you to examine a premise you may live from...when others ignore you, you are erased, have no presence, no choices. By looking at our past choices, we can see more clearly how our present choices can be different.

"I missed the closeness and intimacy we used to share, I lost my lover and I lost my best friend. And yes I know all about the Affair with Michael T, this was the most painful of all, I just recieved the finial peice to that puzzle..."

To more clearly see lines...you missed the closeness and intimacy YOU felt. You feel like you lost your lover and best friend. This is your truth, worth knowing and sharing. The final piece isn't a DJ, the puzzle is.

"Bobi, I acknowledge my shortcomings that may have led to your escaping to runescape, James and the affair. I should have told how just much I loved you, I should have told how truly beautiful, and sexy you are. I should have been a husband who allowed you to fell safe enough to share anything with me, I should have listened better and heard you when you spoke. I should have stood strong for you and not listened to others when it came to your well being , for my mistakes I ask your forgiveness."

This is the great part of a Plan A or Plan B letter...I'm wondering if this is truly your areas, though. "I chose not to" instead of shoulds. If you replaced each should with a chose not to...are you nearer your power and limits? Even in good marriages, where they did the shoulds, A's took place. So if you're saying here that if you'd chosen to be more aware, honest and sharing, then she wouldn't have had a reason to escape, create and nuture resentment into entitlement, then you're owning what isn't yours. And if you would choose differently now, not to stave off her choices, but to live from honesty...you would choose to state your love, your opinions, perceptions...listen and repeat to know, not to do...to respect, not to react...then you've gleaned a lot.

"The conditions for our rebuilding our marriage are very simple.

The Affair with Michael T must stop, and you can never have contact With Michael T again."

The difference between truth and controlling is when you control, you eliminate respect of others' choices. Truth is that the importance of her choices are equal to your own. "To rebuild would take you choosing to end all contact with OM. Marriage is about two people, not three. As long as you choose contact, our marriage would be one of three people."

"We Return to counseling.. We turn off the damn computers and look to each other to fulfill our needs. Recommit to each other to be the others one and only true love and make each other the #1 priority in each other lives. Turn to each other and seek each others counsel and agreement on any decision. Jealously guard and protect each others heart and feelings as if they were our own ."

This would be blurry because you have taken on her anger as your doing; put on her your own definitions. This does come later, when there is mutuality; it's a following outcome of doing your part, being aware and present. Same for her.

"Defend each other against anyone who would harm us or our marriage."

This says you feel outsiders have done this to your marriage. I think you meant knowing and owning our own boundaries, to protect ourselves and our marriage. You mentioned being more comfortable in the friendship of women...do you have female friends, during your relationship with WW, where you confided and sought to be heard? You minding your own boundaries is within your control. Minding hers is not.

"I know this might seem challenging at first,

No ownership. Is this challenging to you or not?

"I know I can and I will do what is required of me to make this happen."

I see you already doing it. You have the choice to already be the right partner...even now, in Plan B. No future required.

"The question is can you?"

We all can...doesn't mean we will. And you defined "the question"...which is controlling.

"I will also do what is needed of me to support you in your efforts to make our marriage a blessing."

Clear lines is the best support...learning your code, what you live up to and enforcing your boundaries. That's real human support. Not earning. Doesn't require her efforts, either.

"I have already made my choice, that choice was made July 3rd 2001, it was affirmed on Feb 11,2006. You freely choose to take my ring, and you freely choose to become my wife. I just ask that you think about the past 6 years,"

This says you don't believe she has thought or is thinking of the last six years. Ouch. I did this a lot...my disrespect was automatic. Check yours. Know what you are asking and if you are asking plainly, truthfully.

"Will you now freely choose to try one more time and fulfill the dream that out marriage held when we place the rings on each other fingers?"

Speaking of rings...you took off yours because she took off hers? You chose to take yours off although the truth is you are married. You remain married. This was your choice about you...you hurt mightily when she wasn't wearing hers. What she chooses is separate from your choices. Clear your lines so you can plainly see where you give yourself permission to go to fantasy through her choices.

"There is still time to save and rebuild our marrage, but it is growing short."

Again, defining the circumstance instead of stating your perspective. Good to know. There is a controlling threat here because there's no ownership. "I am learning to respect your choices and I fear I won't want you back if you stop your A. I know in my head I want our marriage very much. I've been given to acting from my feelings all my life and fear I will do so again." That's real...if that's yours. I'm showing how to state and own without overstepping.

"Until you make this decision to end this afffair, and resume counseling we must remain completely separated, without any contact,"

Again, no ownership. "Until you end your affair, I believe you remain allowing undue influence, and without counseling, will not decide what you want for your life from clarity. I am choosing to not have any contact with you except through <blank> who has agreed to be my intermediary in the event of an emergency, or meet legal requirements. I do this to guard what remains of my loving feelings for you, to stop my reactivity to what feels like constant rejection."

The more you choose to own in your life, the less you will experience external done to's...and you won't feel blamed, because you'll have clean lines for what you are not responsible for.

Practicing is a great choice. On your thread, many people have responded. Take time to read what they say...even when they are just feeling your stuff and sharing their own feelings...listen and repeat, even here, to practice clarifying or confirming. If you are reading responses, searching out what you want to hear, to confirm in yourself, you'll miss God's message through others for you...which is about connecting and being safe to connect with.

You are fully in Phase II of marriage...Phase I is when we fall in love with our partners as caretakers in our minds...completing us...and it's our best image to their best image. You said you had other LTR between your divorce at 21 and next marriage at 36. These may well have reached Phase II and quickly dissolved. When our real selves come out to the meet and greet, we are seeing our self-image weaken and our real selves emerge...can be difficult for us and for our partners. Same for seeing our partners change from Phase I to Phase II.

Which is why you can reap the benefits of Phase II even in Plan B...learning about your true self and discerning that from your self-image. A new kind of meet and greet.

Phase III is worth it. Experiencing mature love surpasses Phase I, I promise.

I'm still struggling a bit with the timelines...WW was 18 when she married, or began her relationship with her H, married for 18 years? You say she left that marriage and never looked back. She was married to a minister, the father of her six children. How long was her divorce process? When was the final date of her divorce?

In regards to her children, you said you loved like your own. How often do you see them? An intermediary could help with scheduling your connect times with them. Do you talk to them by phone/email? How are they doing? You don't list their ages (though you said two were twins). You were in their lives for six years...living with them (some) for nearly three years. That's significant in a child's life.

And could you fill me in on how long your M#2 lasted? I got the dating/proposal timeline of seven months before marriage...I didn't catch the time interval between getting married and shipping out for your six-week cruise. I think it was brave of you to ask W#2 why...and you heard something you didn't know before. WW's make up reasons to have A's...they make their BH's choices as their permission...doesn't mean you have any control...does mean that knowing, as Orchid said, the difference between your W and your WW is essential to saving your marriage.

And your sanity.

And knowing where you may make your W's choices be what chooses yours. Good to know.

LA

Jim,

The letter is compelling evidence that he has no conscience. It wouldn't bother him if he was having an affair with your wife, and he wouldn't fault himself in any way.

Does that mean he is having an affair with your wife? No, but it does mean that he wouldn't feel guilty if he was.

The question is whether your wife has a conscience and is simply lying to herself about what she is doing.

I wouldn't give a second thought to the OM.

Cherishing

Wow is right! LA
I will try to do this offline and import it... I will attempt to answer your numerous questions and comments In red and different font... didn;t work my answers follow your questions...




Jim,

Wow...just finished your whole thread. To go in reverse, I vote for forwarding OM's email to WW without commentary.

OK Will forward no commentary...

I agree about not replying to OM's email.

Concur I won’t be

Now...what are your lines? I don't see where you probe yourself for clarity...my perception is that you very much have lived through others, especially women, and have lived from your feelings.

I don’t understand what you mean what are lines?

Hey, I've been there, lived that way for four decades...no bash here. What I'm wondering is if you really want to change your life experience?

YES, but I don’t get the Lines... part...

So, to clear lines:

"I would like peoples (especally the Pros) opinion of OM reply (do you feel he looks guilty) and WW reply..."

When your focus is on others, your self hurts. I see you attempting to figure out all the ways your WW escapes...to whom, which times...finding the truth of her actions which were hidden. May feel like you're seeking truth...may also be you're seeking others' eyes to look out of.
I just want to know what happened and why to understand what went wrong.

Your own eyes and intent are good enough, Jim. Always have been. You didn't expose on whim--you shared truth, what you knew. Sounds like you're asking after the act if you were right? Need confirmation from others you weren't wrong or mistaken?

Ok, in my gut, I think I am right, it feels right (it hurts like ****** too). If the data I was provided was good, it supports my conclusion, the information I found I have no doubt in. Think of this was as an Intel analysis seeking peer review, I am asking other analysis (the pro’s here) if they also draw the same conclusions from my information..

You’re also correct I am asking for validation from others a lot more knowledgeable about this stuff then I am. I took a very hard stance; I just want to know if other would have acted the same... I don’t trust my instincts as much as I should since this flew under the radar... .

If you shared truth with bias...see, see this is what she's doing...then you're gonna desire confirmation. If you shared truth to say, "This is what I believe is harming my marriage" then you won't. Your truth stands...reasonable, sound and from your intent to live in and from truth. A reality bringer.

I called it the way I saw it... and yes I think OM is killing my M...

What is your clear line on O&H and truth?
again I don’t get the “LINE bit”

"Did I rattle there cages sufficantly,"

From this, I hear your intent was to upset, expose to get a certain response...rather than share truth. Can you see where lines blur if your intent is to control...have an effect, and if your intent is to act in truth and share it? We all have hidden expectations and beliefs...part of a human coping mechanism...when we use it to an extreme, we do damage to ourselves and others (WS's do this). When we don't use it enough, we spiral downward. Clearing the lines of your own whys is crucial to live in balance. Choosing your intent and owning your actions is how you get in the middle.
The propose of exposure had 2 motives. .
1. To expose the A and to place pressure on the A... My understanding of the reason to expose is to place pressure that hopefully to causes it to implode. Then maybe the M can survive... Did I misunderstand something.

2. To let OM and WW know I know and I was not fooled. I know what is killing my M


Yes, exposure acts like light on cockroaches...that's an outcome...you don't control any outcome. When we make our goal an outcome, then we are controlling...takes us believing we are the cause, control and cure...when our intent is to know and share truth and let the outcome go, then we are living in truth, respecting our limits and power, even before we take the action.

I know I cannot control the outcome I have the power to start (or try) the chain reaction where it goes from there I don’t know. It is a calculated risk. Do nothing, M is dead, do something it may still be dead, but if A ends it may not be...

"from their notes does it appear pressure being applied (esp on WW)..."

DJs are sneaky beliefs...they harm us as much as they harm others and our relationships. One of the most important ENs your WW didn't seem to meet for you was O&H

Yes she closed down and became dishonest.

.I want you to flip that desire onto yourself...in this statement, are you really asking for others to comfort you through divining the unknown? Are you asking to know what you can't know so you can base your actions on theirs?

Yes and No. Ok in military speak... This is kind a like the fog of war you have to make decisions based on incomplete information. So I am asking if others are reading the tea leaves the same as I am. I am also seeing if (there experience) there is a better alternative then I am coming up with.

Being O&H with ourselves is huge...finding what we're really thinking, feeling, believing will tell us why we are perceiving, viewing and reacting.

ok O+H, I am flat scared of failing again, I am asking myself what am I doing wrong with my choices, I was so careful this time. I can make it, I know that but it will be hard and rough.

"Is this going to cook my goose further is it a Big LB?"

SNIP

Can you write a list of all the ways you LB yourself?
I will look into that...

OUCH! Choose not to abuse yourself, Jim. You don't know if the ship is really sinking or not.

This just seems some much like M2 ended...

Can you find four or five themes in your life? I identified rejection and acceptance...that's like one theme. Do/say this and you'll feel accepted...earn love. Or punishment (rejection).

Probably, rejection for sure. Mom was a manipulator. , heck so was sister they play guilt like a fiddle... Rejection as well probably... They would always “tell you” how you feel, won’t validate your feelings... tends to really anger me...

What are other ones you can identify? How about abandonment/intimacy?

I don’t know...

Or because you feel attacked, discounted, rejected, you'll go dark again?
Protect self from ^^^^^ each and all the last sentance .


From your WW's email, I think I see something:

All her YOU statements are attacking. I think you're used to hearing these...which translates to "You're in control, you're powerful, you're to blame, you're the screwup" as you statements tend to do.

Well she tells everyone it is my fault, everything is my fault, I don’t buy it...

Here's how her email would look with ownership...and I do this to share how important this is for every human...and only we do it for ourselves.

"I feel attacked and maligned. I know you called people who are dear to me. They said you believed I am having an affair. I don't believe I am. I don't believe flirting is adulterous behavior. I want you to stop bringing my mind to look at my choices. I feel exposed and fearful that others know what I'm doing. I've felt vulnerable to judgment all my life, ESPECIALLY by these very people.

I feel manipulated and pressured by your choices. I want you to not know what I've hidden from you. I don't want you to love or be in pain because of me. My mind goes to how can you gain from knowing my secrets. My perception is that you judge me and assume a lot about me instead of asking to know. I feel threatened and am not attracted to you right now."
intresting...
Until you get your own lines clear to what is the truth, her truth, your truth...you won't be able to perceive her email in this way. You'll hear you're powerful in a terrible, wrong, judged way...and that will be your choice, not her doing to you.

Intresting rewrite...
Ok straight answer, do you concur with my belief WW is having an A with OM3, I do.



PBL's are about YOUR decisions...from reality and about choices.

I do think you may have a theme in your life about blame/power and it may be tied strongly to rejection/acceptance.

Could be...

"I love you with all my heart and my soul, I have from the beginning and I do today. I have no desire for a divorce, my only wish is for us to be happy and in love with each other, I know this is possible if we both tried."

SNIP


You mentioned being more comfortable in the friendship of women...do you have female friends, during your relationship with WW, where you confided and sought to be heard?
I spoke with my friend the bartender a few times always with WW present. I had no Female friends who I maintained close friendship with when married.. mom, sister yes.
"I know this might seem challenging at first,

Ok lossy Plan B letter... I did my best...



I'm still struggling a bit with the timelines...WW was 18 when she married, or began her relationship with her H, married for 18 years? You say she left that marriage and never looked back. She was married to a minister, the father of her six children. How long was her divorce process? When was the final date of her divorce?

WW married in sophomore Year College and stopped school, was married 18 years. The divorce took about 12 months I guess... Her divorce was final in May 2001,

In regards to her children, you said you loved like your own. How often do you see them?
An intermediary could help with scheduling your connect times with them. Do you talk to them by phone/email? How are they doing? You don't list their ages (though you said two were twins). You were in their lives for six years...living with them (some) for nearly three years. That's significant in a child's life.

Now never and I miss them.. 4th grade twon girls, 12 boy, 16 y boy, 18, boy and 24 boy.

I talk with their farther to see how there doing. That is about it and it hurts like ******... I spoke to her oldest son last week...

And could you fill me in on how long your M#2 lasted? I got the dating/proposal timeline of seven months before marriage...I didn't catch the time interval between getting married and shipping out for your six-week cruise. I think it was brave of you to ask W#2 why...and you heard something you didn't know before. WW's make up reasons to have A's...they make their BH's choices as their permission...doesn't mean you have any control...does mean that knowing, as Orchid said, the difference between your W and your WW is essential to saving your marriage.

Proposal to marriage was fast as I was going back to a sea cycle. Married in late Feb, shipped out for 8 weeks in mid March returned in mid May found he doing a guy an “girls night out day we returned .

Just know I am doing the best I know how to do... I have my faults and am working on them...

Don’t know what else to say

sent om3 letter to WW... with no comment...

Very good!

ok confused are you saying you DON'T think they are having an PA?

Or are you saying you agree they are having a PA but just dont care...

JIm

missed this post you are correct he is scum and a dog...

and sometimes.. people's values change. sometimes for the better. sometimes, for the worse.


are you SERIOUSLY worried that your wife is going to run up joint debt?

if not... then just drop it.

if you really are.. then there is legal separation as an option.

http://www.wicourts.gov/services/public/prose.htm

Jim,

I wasn't blaming you for your choices, your actions, your PBL...you said it was lousy, I didn't.

I'm not judging you. I believe you have been re-experiencing this all your life, in each relationship:

"Probably, rejection for sure. Mom was a manipulator. , heck so was sister they play guilt like a fiddle... Rejection as well probably... They would always “tell you” how you feel, won’t validate your feelings... tends to really anger me..."

See, no one can tell you how you feel...what you choose to think, believe, perceive or your viewpoint. They are already valid because they are yours. When they do this, they are abusing...good to know. No one defines us, our stuff, only we do that.

Rejection is telling you that you aren't good enough, not what is wanted...that's soul searing stuff. Guilt is saying you should be enough, if only you'd change, stop doing or start doing...or start being and stop being.

Same rejection in there, isn't there?

Guilt also makes you powerful...in a way which isn't real.

Guilt is not living up to others' expectations.

Shame is not living up to your own.

I'm not guilting, shaming, blaming or judging. I'm saying "Here's your power...here's where you choose." If you believe your WW has an OM#3 since October...I believe you. You're living it; I'm not.

And I believe in sharing that truth you found out about...seems you researched and knew before you shared...because you want to not live in lies...and I believe you did that.

That's my opinion. My beliefs...they aren't yours and do not have to be. I believe you know the definition of an affair...when one partner puts anything ahead of their marriage...be it a hobby, a person, resentment...anything. When fantasy is a higher priority than reality...you're going to feel anger, pain, fear...

I'm asking you to consider all your relationships...with the kids, as well. I'm not telling you you're not a good guy...I'm asking you to find where all your pain is coming from and address it. If you had relationships (and I believe you do) with the kids...continue those. They are separate from the marriage.

Sometimes, what hurts like ***** is signalled to us by making our focus on something else...our internal distraction...and I'm asking you what you want to do in regards to them. Asking about them isn't the same as asking them...hearing what they think, feel...their stuff.

Thank you for confirming that your M2 didn't get to Phase II, either.

And that you were dating WW before her divorce was final. This wasn't judgment...again, to know all of it...to find all your lines and trace them.

Clear lines are what we live by. You have them in Navy...if this happens, do this. You have a code...I'm asking you to discern your own code...what each choice of action (which leaves no room for reactive) is coming from.

I believe your WW is having a current affair...with resentment...and in her head, she has lots of fantasies and looped thinking...which involve others...because the succor of fantasy isn't real...it's temporary...and she's done this her whole life...

One of the things you shared was your fear she's a walkaway wife...that when she leaves, she's gone. You got this from her first marriage...she didn't look back. And you knew this and understood this in your marriage...did you believe that her XH was the reason? His abuse, his actions?

If that's what you thought when you began with her...then you're in his shoes now, aren't you? That can cause a lot of pain.

Know where your pain is coming from...find your choices, your truth...that's good enough. It's real. Knowing yourself without judgment is an act of love and trust.

Trust yourself.

LA

Reply from WW... Things are now getting intresting!

Michael is full of hot air, no he couldn't of taken me away if he wanted to, yea he is a big flirt, and that is as far as it went. Did you call him or what? You read old text messages??? Are you also reading old emails, and old runescape conversations? What are you doing Jim? You have that much time to dig through old crap, and why would you want to anyways?


I think I should send her exactly what I sent OM

"I Was recently provided/given evidance you have been and are having an affair with my wife Bobi. WTF".

OK Pros, Would you advice I send her that? What do you think? I am in uncharted terrotory here and would like your guidance on the best way to proceed...

Jim

Techi,

On this I will disagree with you, I am following the advice of my attorney, that is what I pay him for. He is one of the top 3 lawyers in town at family law. he is well aware I hope for a recon, he was given a copy of the plan B letter before WW got it...

I have many options I have not used. I can delay, postpone, cancel etc. right up until the gavel drops, I asked about a seperation he advise against it, it has limitations as it locks me in for a full 12 months, and I still couldn't stop WW if she filed, as Wi is no fault.

Jim

Jim,

I wasn't blaming you for your choices, your actions, your PBL...you said it was lousy, I didn't.

I did the best I could. that is all I can do, I am not perfect.

I'm not judging you. I believe you have been re-experiencing this all your life, in each relationship:

"Probably, rejection for sure. Mom was a manipulator. , heck so was sister they play guilt like a fiddle... Rejection as well probably... They would always “tell you” how you feel, won’t validate your feelings... tends to really anger me..."

See, no one can tell you how you feel...what you choose to think, believe, perceive or your viewpoint. They are already valid because they are yours. When they do this, they are abusing...good to know. No one defines us, our stuff, only we do that.

Yes I know, I know it is abuse.. I deserve better. I know that to... But they are also what they are, I accept that. There was a time i would swallow it now I push back hard, and let them know they crossed my boundry.

Rejection is telling you that you aren't good enough, not what is wanted...that's soul searing stuff. Guilt is saying you should be enough, if only you'd change, stop doing or start doing...or start being and stop being.

Same rejection in there, isn't there?

Yes and I know that too...I had that chat with mom after last D and a year with my shrink.. I asked simple question why couldn't i be loved for just being Jim. Just be good enough as I was not having to be something someone expected me to be...

I'm not guilting, shaming, blaming or judging. I'm saying "Here's your power...here's where you choose." If you believe your WW has an OM#3 since October...I believe you. You're living it; I'm not.

I did electronic intel ok, That is my best evaluation of the evidance\data. Could I be wrong yes, it wasn't complete I can't read minds and I didn't catch them red handed. But it sure seems to fit very neatly into the time frame things went south amd the senerio very well.

And I believe in sharing that truth you found out about...seems you researched and knew before you shared...because you want to not live in lies...and I believe you did that.

That was a powerful accustion I don't like accusing without my ducks in a row as best I can.

That's my opinion. My beliefs...they aren't yours and do not have to be. I believe you know the definition of an affair...when one partner puts anything ahead of their marriage...be it a hobby, a person, resentment...anything. When fantasy is a higher priority than reality...you're going to feel anger, pain, fear...

She placed him and the other dude and the game before me...
that was unacceptable. nuff said

I'm asking you to consider all your relationships...with the kids, as well. I'm not telling you you're not a good guy...I'm asking you to find where all your pain is coming from and address it. If you had relationships (and I believe you do) with the kids...continue those. They are separate from the marriage.

Ok inner child stuff... Much of the pain was moms rejection/head games. at least I am I am pretty sure. So i fear rejection/seek approval from women... enough froid

Kids I will try but i have no rights...

Sometimes, what hurts like ***** is signalled to us by making our focus on something else...our internal distraction...and I'm asking you what you want to do in regards to them. Asking about them isn't the same as asking them...hearing what they think, feel...their stuff.

Thank you for confirming that your M2 didn't get to Phase II, either.

And that you were dating WW before her divorce was final. This wasn't judgment...again, to know all of it...to find all your lines and trace them.

Clear lines are what we live by. You have them in Navy...if this happens, do this. You have a code...I'm asking you to discern your own code...what each choice of action (which leaves no room for reactive) is coming from.


ok code got it. I didn't voilated any of my inner princaples in our R from first date until she left the house. Since then I did once. I know it and have counsled mysef and forgiven myself for teh moment of weekness.

I believe your WW is having a current affair...with resentment...and in her head, she has lots of fantasies and looped thinking...which involve others...because the succor of fantasy isn't real...it's temporary...and she's done this her whole life...

OK thank you.. I just was seeking an outside opinion, if my logic was well logical...

One of the things you shared was your fear she's a walkaway wife...that when she leaves, she's gone. You got this from her first marriage...she didn't look back. And you knew this and understood this in your marriage...did you believe that her XH was the reason?

I would say yes right up until well about January, I am repidly reevaluating this however... she calimed He was abusibse and controling etc... He is to some degree I have seen this, I also think she transferd it to me... She sees my actions that are simular (but diffrent motive completly) in the same light... does that make sense?

If that's what you thought when you began with her...then you're in his shoes now, aren't you? That can cause a lot of pain.

Bingo..

Know where your pain is coming from...find your choices, your truth...that's good enough. It's real. Knowing yourself without judgment is an act of love and trust.

Trust yourself.

I do trust myself mostly, but i do like to take a gut check as well to make sure i am not over-reacting...

Jim

My reply


Subject: what?


Michael is full of hot air, no he couldn't of taken me away if he wanted to, yea he is a big flirt, and that is as far as it went.

He said it I didn't

Did you call him or what?
E mailed this simple message "I Was recently provided/given evidance you have been and are having an affair with my wife Bobi. WTF". ...

You read old text messages???
no
Are you also reading old emails,
no

and old runescape conversations?
no

What are you doing Jim?

Since you asked, I am Just stating what I beleive to be the truth based on information that was given to me and what I was able to confirm to the best of my ability and to my satisfaction, If I am wrong, I am honestly wrong, but it sure appears I am not.

I love you, I don't want a divorce, I would perfer we would work togeather, get help and rebuild our marrage.
I believe this can happen, I beleive we could both be happy togeather and make the marraige a blessing.
I beleive it would take work on both our parts but that it is very acheivable. I am prepaired to do everything
in my power to make the changes in myself needed so I don't love bust anymore and to meet your Emotional needs.

I am doing the best I can by myself to make those changes already and improving myself based on your LB/EN questioner.
I could be more effective with feedback, but I am trying just the same.
I hope in time the desire will return to give our marrage a chance and to work at making both of us equally happy.
I cannot control what you do, and I don't want to, that would be disrespectful and that is one of your top concerns so I must avoid doing it.
I hope at some point you will freely choose to do so, but that is not my choice to make.
The changes I am working on benifit me too so they are a win win...

I beleive you are aware about my second Marrage, and why it ended.
I know, I could not hope to rebuild our marrage if there is an active affair ongoing. (to me an afffair can be emotional, physical or both)
I also know if the affair is over and finished, I still love you, hurt yes, but I still love you and would try my hardest to make our marraige work.
I beleive what is done is done So there is no good to be gotten from dwelling on what can't be changed.
I am much more conerned about the future where I / we can make the changes we would both want so we would both be happy.

You have that much time to dig through old crap, and why would you want to anyways?
I am busy actually, I did very little digging, I only "digging" I did was to confirm or disprove the information I was given.
Most of the info appears to check out some of course I cannot prove or disprove or didnt want to.


Love Jim

You had her wondering HOW you got the info. You realize that her e-mail showed no remorse.

When a WS is probing for answers a BS should NOT accommodate. Instead the BS should be mute. It is good the WS wonders. The more she is forced to think, the sooner she can recover.

In the future, don't be quick to give her answers or give away your source.

L.

opppps...

Made another mistake then. Man I need halp navagating this mine field. that is why i ask for help, this is very high stakes and I am a rookie...

Orchid, if i read your note correctly, however you believe she knows she is busted big time, Can I aslo safley assume their actions (in addition to the info/data) support my conclusion they are having an A. and the OM really tipped their hand with his bravodo...


With the note I followed my instinct and told the truth.
I also tried to use LA's advice and pull the content to my power and boundry, not DJ/LB I also wanted to be the lighthouse and show her the path to the safe harbor from the storm she has created for herself. I don't hate her, I know I contributed in making conditions condusive for that
A.

I also wanted her to know I am not just sitting here digging dirt. I have better things to do and that this time "someone" came to me and that the knowledge maybe wider spread then she reailizes..

I tried to use all I statements and own myself my power and set my boundary at the same time Did my letter accomplish this I don't know...


Jim

I sent a email check your in box...

Ok an off topic update.

Went to the Local honky tonk last night (not hunting) but to have fun. The Band was great! Man I had the most fun I have had in maybe 10 years, probably pre WW #2. Seriously unwond and let the Jim shine through...

The weight loss is really noticable now, I was looking good, getting lots of complements from people (gals mostly but a couple guys too) who knew me before!

The owner (called MA) said I was making the place look good, even had me walk her Duaghter to her car when she left the bar (for saftey) I was dancing with 2 of the prettest gals in the place and was cutting the rug ok for a 47 year old guy... I was grinning ear to ear like a chesesire cat (i havn't smiled, laughed and sang lake that in a very long time) Talk about a serious self esteam infusion. Found myself standing taller and strighter, felt the confidance re-surging... I actually felt when I asked a gal to dance they would agree, not wonder if I would be turned down. 3 of the pretter ones asked if I would be back newt week when i was heading out and saying my goodbyes and thanking them for a fun evening...

You know I am a nice guy, I am not hard on the eyes, I can dance and laugh and be fun to be around... If this M don't make it, you know I will be OK...

Jim

She may be in the "if it isnt physical, it isnt an affair" camp. Kinda sounds like she is.
If so, you're going to get nowhere by pushing her to admit "you're having an affair", because she's probably going to say "no I'm not, i've never had sex with him", and reject anything else you say.

Right now, you certainly have enough to show that she is emotionally entangled with this other guy.
However, unless you have proof that they spent time together alone, in a bedroom or something... I strongly suggest that you never accuse her of having a physical affair, and also make it very clear in everything you say, to not imply that that has happened.

'cause if you do, and that hasn't actually happened... again, everything you say will be tossed out the window, and all you will be doing is just aggravating the situation between you two. (and aggravating it without cause, which is even worse)

and what reasoning did he give you?
in what way does a divorce better "protect" you financially, than a legal separation?

or is there more to it than just financial reasons?


"locks you in"? huh? what's the problem here?
From the moment you start the process (if it's like california) you have legal protection. Heck, even BEFORE then! It's all about the "date of separation", which is usually retroactive. Meanwhile, during those 12 months, you are not "locked into" something that says, "I'm looking to dissolve our marriage". Contrast having a "legal separation" hanging over you, with having a "divorce" hanging over you?

if you're so concerned about joint debt, then just close any joint credit cards, equity lines, etc.
There, done. You're protected from 90% of anything that could happen to you.

And how does "you filing for divorce first" in any way "protect" you from your wife filing for divorce?
(i'm sure your lawyer will give you lots of mumbo jumbo; but the bottom line is: you arent any more "protected" from the "running up join debt" thing... and you certainly arent any more protected from your marriage being smashed on the rocks either)


I suggest that you stop taking marital advice, from a DIVORCE LAWYER !
I believe that you are seriously damaging your marital relationship, by pushing for a divorce yourself.
Telling your wife "i dont want a divorce", while at the same time, you are the one filing for divorce.. that's two-faced. It just doesnt work. it discredits all your words with her.

Plus, it's one of the basic basic things on here: Let the WS file for divorce, not you.

I will again respectfull disagree.

I take legal advice from my attorney, that is why I have him.

If I filed for legal sep she could still file for the D I just lost money I dont have... With out a temporaty order in place I am jointly responcable for any debt she occurs. I can close the cards etc and she can open a new one and I am still on the hook, joint property state.

The purpose of the filing was to secure marital assets.
And to protect me. if i filed for sep then it went to D it would cost twice as much... Money I do not have, Filing for a D, I can cancel it anytime if needed, postpone if needed, I have many options...

Also i know this attorney, he did my first D in 1992 and for my sister, he is very good and I trust him completey.

Jim

Oh, ok. SO, money is the most important thing to you. gotcha. just wanted to understand your priorities...

Tell me... if your car broke down right now... would you take out a loan to get a new one?
Or would you say, "i dont have money right now" and walk everywhere?

Most of the expensive stuff will be handled in the legal separation. The divorce bit after that, would be relatively cheap. there's nothing left to argue about. would almost definately be under $5,000. possibly even $2,000, i would guess.



yup, lots of options... except the option of your words being consistent with your actions.


well, thats great then. He has an excellent track record...
of helping you get divorced

Back up.

you are now crossing boundries. stop the DJ.I heard your opinion i disagreeed with it. that is my choice.
respect it or please keep it to yourself.

Jim

You need to back up. You guys disagreed in your opinion over this and need to leave it at that.

Filing for D, or going thru with it...it is all just a paperwork issue, a technicality. And no, money is NOT his number one priority.

????

that's like when people live together for XYZ number of years, and say "marriage? oh, that's just a piece of paper. we dont need that 'technicality'"

a divorce is not "just paperwork".
yes, marriages have been rebuilt after a divorce. but that does not make the divorce process somehow merely 'a technicality'.

maybe it isnt in his head... but his actions right now, say money is his number one priority.

Thanks Dog!

Techi, Unless your God, you can't know my heart or my soul.

Filing for and going through a divorce is not something I am looking forward too, I don't want it at this time period. Someday it may come to that but that day isn't today...

Everyone's advice here has been protect yourself and your assets from the WS. That is exactly what I am doing.

I am sure cutting her off my checking account didn't make her feel safe or secure of for that matter taking back the house keys, car keys credit card, ATM card...

All these things I would have perferd not to have to do. I would have perferd her to not to have an A too for that matter.

What I have done I have done on the advice of legal counsel to protect myself from a WS. Fully 1/2 all filed divorces don't go through and are stopped. I hope mine is one of them. However if the WW dosn't become a FWW relitivly soon or make an effort toward becoming one, then it does need to proceed...

I respect your opinion, I just disagreee with it. I only ask the the same courtesy. I am living this crap, I am the one who has to take make the decisions, take the risks and ultimatly I am the one who will pay the piper, not you.

If you cant respect my beliefs and choices please leave my thread... Nuff said.

jim

ken

couldn't you file for a legal separation instead?

yes We could have, if we both agreeded to a sep, and not a D however she incicated wanting a d not a sep...

jim

Ken,

Let's simply it for you a bit. Even if the A seems to be done, doesn't mean the attitude and selfish desire which fueled the A is gone.

This stuff takes time to extract and destroy.

In the interim, the BS needs to play it smart. There are ways you can test the status of the Ws vs. Xws vs. spouse. Learn the differences. It is vital you know this. Then learn how to interact (as needed) with each character.

You don't want to treat each character (i.e. WS, Xws or W) the same. Treat each according to the degree that will bring benefit to you and your family. This takes skill and practice.

So for now, I will tell you there are several things you need to be doing:

1. Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.
2. Read up on SAA and HNHN.
3. Identify if possible your W's ENs and make sure you know the difference between the WS, Xws and your W.

4. Know your ENs and your personal along with M boundaries.
5. Secure your finances.
6. Secure your local support group.
7. Get with a good MC / IC perferably familar with MB principals or better yet, call Jennifer C @ MB for a plan.

When you start on this path, there will be less time for any pity party and wasted time trying to educate a WS. This is useless and drains the BS of vital resources.

Keep posting. Your personal recovery is where you will find results 1st.

take care,
L.

And, Jim, you must be willing to be ALONE. I know that is a scarey thought, but it the best way to recovery, and a brighter future. Most of us don't like being alone, but if you force yourself, you might grow to tolerate it.

The problem with the inability to be alone is that you keep jumping into one inappropriate relationship after another. You have a lot to offer a woman. Take your time, and work on recovery, and then a relationship.

thanks...

I am working on me at the moment... I think I am on an up swing... I am feeling pretty good and my self confidance and self esteam seem to be resurging...

I am stating to ask myself if the M is healthy for me, And frankly the answer is no it isn't. It could be but it isn't. When I look there is a lot of baggage with the WW. baggage I can do without. Ok I married her
so if she attempts to recon I would likly try.

However did a lot of thinking and poundering today, I don't think I should expend any more energy on the M until she come back to it. I should be focusing my time and energy on me.


That is just my thought... Basically I think i should walk away, if she chooses to come after me I may need to make a decison, if she dosn't...

jim

Ken,

You are finally getting to the right place in my opinion. You should work on yourself, and you are. You have given an opportunity, and still are: the door is open. You should be evaluating whether you really and truly want this marriage, and you are. You should be realizing you will survive this, and you are.

It seems to me all systems are go. This is NOT a marriage at all costs site. It is a site that allows people to give their marriage a better chance than they otherwise would. But, you and your W have choices to make. You can choose to leave the marriage or stay, if you choose the former it is over no matter what your W decides. If you choose to stay and try, then your W have two choices, leave or stay and work on the marriage. IF she chooses to leave, your choices don't count either.

THe point of this??? Worry about your own choices, learn and grow. You will be able to handle whatever she chooses, and you will be able to make a better decision yourself.

Hang in there.

JL

Thanks I am trying...

I am re-evaluating many things...

I really need to ajust my attatude to an abundance mentality Female wise. I am thinking I really sold myself short due to that thinking.

My W has a great deal of downside I have previously accepted... Her family is disfuntional, always drama, her family hates me and has constantly tried to sabotage our Relationship/marraige, she has lots of kids, dosn't get child support and she dosn't make much money ($10.hr).

Additionally her family's value structure or lack there of chafes me and I would say it is safe to say post M her value system changed or she let the real Bobi out and the current version is unacceptable.

Now what is the upside, well that is a problem I am not finding it now. it was good friendship, she loved me, took care of me and great sex. Now all the upside has disappeared.

just some of my thoughts...

Jim

I have been thinking hard about advertising for a roommate to help with cost control... a few hundred a month would really help me out... What do you folks think, has anyone else done this? I don't think it should be a problem. I don't see why I shouldn't, I don't see that I owe it to the ww to keep the 2 bed rooms open at this point...


jim

Has anyone done the roomm ate thing during seperation to help defray costs?

Did it work for you?

Has anyone have it come back to bite them in the butt?

Anyone see any pontential probelms aside from the obivious your dont get alone with the roommate?

meet with my IC today, she thinks roommate is great idea...
She says I am moving into acceptance phase of grief...

I have one more session before she leaves, want to discuss abundance mentality, and how to go about choosing better partners, (she says don't bring home anymore wounded ducks)

Waiting for a comment from my lawyer, if he green lights the roommate idea I will listing for a roommate before the weekend... Then WW will have to vacate the rest of her "stuff" and I guess moving back would get intresting. I just am not prepaired to take a severail thousond dollar hit to keep the rooms vacant...

I guess I am starting to move on.

Jim

Lawyer said there would be no legal issue with getting a roommate...

ok folks anyine have any thougts?

Well, so what's your plan or intent at this point? Move on with the divorce, or attempt to reconcile your marriage?

If you want to reconcile, the room mate thing is going to be one more hurdle to deal with if the chance comes up.

If you want to divorce...then it's up to you.

Owl

So far I have seen exactly zero actions or words that indicate the WW has any intent or desire to recon, and many that indicate she dosn't. Unless the WW decides she wants to recon I don't have a choice or decision to make in the matter.

The WW left me holding the morgage, bills and everything else while she left taking her paycheck. I am making all the payments but it is pretty tight...

Sitting back powerless isn't a good feeling or something I like to do. I am at the point where I feel I need to own my own power and not surrender it to a WW who cares less how I feel or what I need or want. Jim needs to take care of Jim because WW won't. A roommate shareing expenses, or even a reansonable portion would be in jim's best intrest (and welcome relief), having someone to talk to and maybe make a friend with would be an added bouns...

With this in mind I have decided I am going to proceed living my life under the asumption she is gone and not comming back... If she comes and shows me she desires a recon, I will consider it and have to decide what to do at the time.. As daddy said I will cross that bridge when I come to it.. Frankly WW needs to understand that this BS has had it with her BS.

I don't need and don't want it. She needs to Un F&*K herself pronto, if she can't treat me right I will find someone who will... Dad said there are pleanty of fish in the sea...

Note: should I break darkness to tell her to come and get her stuff out of my house ao have the lawyer tell her for me? That will cost me $75.00 where telling her myself would be free...

Jim

Again...what is YOUR plan? Divorce, or reconciliation?

You can't do both at once with any hope of being effective at both.

You can PREPARE for divorce while still working towards reconciliation, but you have to have a GOAL of one or the other. And your REAL efforts need to be towards your goal.

And it doesn't matter what HER plan is...what matters is what goal YOU are going to work towards.

Make sense?

Owl,


I am accepting the that WW is gone and not comming back.
So my plan is to take care of Jim and to act in Jim's best intrest to protect him emotionally, spairtally and finiacially...

I am leaving the door open for a recon, but the ball is in the WW court, she will now have to come to me, I have made my best and finial offer, I have offered my last olive branch. I am heading toward the door, it is now up to her to stop me.

I am evaluating if the M is worth saving. I have made no finial decision on that yet, I have decided I will not accept the M on the old or current terms. It will have to drastically change... If I decide that the M is not worth saving I will let you know.

I think the M could be saved but it takes 2 to save it and right now there is only one... Am I am not going to wait forever.

Does that make sense.

jim

Jim,

I'm so glad Owl's here...thank you, Owl!

Would you consider this adage? Takes one person to save a marriage, and two people to recover?

I used to base my goals and actions on what my DH felt, thought, believed or perceived...and I resented the heck out of feeling left with few choices or no choices.

I CHOSE to pin myself in based on his desires, dislikes...and resent him for it. Which is how we make resentment and nuture it within ourselves. Not them doing it.

They aren't that powerful. They are only half of any relationship...even our marriage, when they're attacking it.

Don't give her your power of choice, your goals, your stuff...all that is yours, valid, real and very important.

"So far I have seen exactly zero actions or words that indicate the WW has any intent or desire to recon, and many that indicate she dosn't."

You're looking at actions/words..."Unless the WW decides she wants to recon I don't have a choice or decision to make in the matter."

I actually got these words after three months waiting on WH's decision (and yes, I was committed to saving our marriage during that time)..."I have decided to stay and work on the marriage. I'm not doing it because I love you. I don't WANT to love you or even try. I'm choosing to do so because I think that down the line, staying has the best chance of me ever being happy. I'm doing this for my son, not you. I know I'll have to consider you, eventually. It will be a long ways down the line."

Doesn't take two to save a marriage...only to recover. We are living evidence of this belief...and so are many others on this board. We had to choose from ourselves, not based on WS's...and by choosing based on our desires, our wants...we cracked open our pattern of choosing based on possible response...others' choices...and began to live freely, in our own.

Necessary for recovery...and one day having a mutually thriving marriage, IMO.

"The WW left me holding the morgage, bills and everything else while she left taking her paycheck. I am making all the payments but it is pretty tight..."

I thought you said she earned $10/hour to support six kids or something close to that? In reference to you not having the FS EN? You are saving on utilities, food, gas, entertainment...I dunno. Lots of stuff, as I remember. My food bill drop was huge when WH moved out. LOL. That's what I remember. The tv wasn't on, the lights were left on...the radio wasn't playing while he showered...I think I could remember everything I counted.

I own the difference, though...he didn't take his paychecks with him...they came into our joint account which paid the bills, and I did a spreadsheet up which listed all our payments, his net pay and mine, and split the costs 50/50 and paid him the remainder against his net. Maybe I'm the one off base here.

Out of his remainder, he had to pay for gas, car repairs, clothes, food, entertainment....he stayed with a relative an hour and a half away (no rent)...his dates with OW...I made sure I wasn't financially supporting his A.

"Sitting back powerless isn't a good feeling or something I like to do."

You aren't powerless...I know you are feeling you are right now and I remember that to be very pain-filled feeling. Mixed with relief...because that's the false payoff...I can't do squat 'cuz she won't let me. I'm off the hook.

You're not. You remain half your marriage...equal power and limits. I found real payoff in working to understand that and choosing from my real power...took away that powerless feeling entirely...which was like a boost. Living in reality does that.

"I am at the point where I feel I need to own my own power and not surrender it to a WW who cares less how I feel or what I need or want."

I see you as doing just that...when you think you are taking it back, instead.

"Jim needs to take care of Jim because WW won't. A roommate shareing expenses, or even a reansonable portion would be in jim's best intrest (and welcome relief), having someone to talk to and maybe make a friend with would be an added bouns..."

Jim, you have been betrayed. You can choose to divorce; it's your right. Won't make you a bad or awful person. As long as you choose to do it from your own choice, not powerless, pushed into it or forced...you're free to do that. I think that's what Owl was asking...

If you choose to believe you are being left with no choice, you will repeat this again and again with others until you get what you don't right now...that at no time are you powerless, done to or helpless. You aren't. God didn't make no junk and he sure as heck didn't give one creation power over another. Equality doesn't work that way. Love doesn't work that way...doesn't make you weak, a doormat nor does it abandon you.

You have a WW right now...not your real W. Those of us who choose to stay and save our marriages know there has been an alien abduction...we are not looking at our WS's feelings and making our choices from them...that would be even more insane than having an A ourselves...No, we hold the memory of our real partners, not the wayward ones who bear a striking resemblance to them.

Helps us to stay sane, choose from our own power and goals...and recover...with or without our spouses.

LA

LA thanks

She had 6 kids, 2 lived with us, 2 were aduilds, 2 lived whith her ex... She used to buy the food, and chip in 350 to the main budget... So I lost 350 and food...

Yes utilities are dropping like a stone, however i am handling all the debt load myself for the moment and the house... I am tight and I don't like living on the edge...

I am not a victim, but I have been betryed by someone who I gave my trust and my everything too.

If the WW came out of the fog, and was the W again, and decided to try to make the M work I will give it my best shot...

I also have to be practable and understand that dosn't look very likly at the moment. Our MC dosn't think so the my pastor dosn't think so...

ok my plan is to get a roommate (male) on a month to month basis to help with the morgage and frankly a friend would be nice too... the WW is tied in to a m-m lease with 60 days notice, if she comes out of the fog and wakes up in time, I will be here... I honestly don't know how much longer I am going to wait however... Every day she is gone more love slips away and i am accepting more she isn't comming back...

Don't really know what else to say... I have a little hope left but not much...

Jim

LA is always giving such great advice!

I got a roommate shortly after WH moved out, only because I HAD to. WH left with his money and refused to contribute anything. It was the best decision for me. Now I'm on the second one in almost 4 years - the first got married. I enjoy having someone around, and it sure helped me out financially. WH was angry about it, but understood finally. By the way, I got males both times.

About the same here... It is very tight if I get a house mate that would provide soem real breathing room...

The company would be nice too...

I have cut about all I can cut with out getting crazy...

I will need to tell WW to come get the reminder of her stuff at some point. sje wa to have vacated but i have been holding out hope she would change her mind... hope is faiding however...

Jim

Ken-

Thanks for the reply. The point of my question was simple...you can't be successful if you're working on two different goals that are in direct opposition of each other.

I agree with everything that LA said...dead on the money.

And I do agree that you DO have the choice to either work on your marriage or divorce...and having been through the pain of betrayal myself, I can completely understand why you would choose either option, and would completely respect either option.

From my perspective, you can't get anywhere without a plan. A goal. You need to KNOW what you want to do, and be working towards that. Otherwise, you're not going to get anywhere. Even our first MC told my FWW (at the time WW) something similar. My wife wanted to 'wait, see how things went, and then decide if she wanted to work on the marriage or not". Our MC told her "you can't build a house by waiting...the first step in building a house is to CHOOSE to build a house. You don't wake up one morning and find the foundation layed and the lumber in the yard. That comes AFTER you choose, not before."

So my point was simply to remind you of the same thing...you can't make any progress if you haven't decided what you want to do.

IF you're intent is to reconcile, the roomate thing is a risky deal, IMHO. It sends a very strong message to your WW that you're moving on. Not always a bad thing, but this message is a little stronger, and easily interpretable as a sign that you don't want her back. It means that if she were to completely change her WW behavior today, it's going to be at least a month before she could consider coming home.

Again, it's up to you. Working out the financial situation isn't easy. I just wanted to give you something to consider. You asked for opinions...I've given mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />