Jim,

I wasn't blaming you for your choices, your actions, your PBL...you said it was lousy, I didn't.

I'm not judging you. I believe you have been re-experiencing this all your life, in each relationship:

"Probably, rejection for sure. Mom was a manipulator. , heck so was sister they play guilt like a fiddle... Rejection as well probably... They would always “tell you” how you feel, won’t validate your feelings... tends to really anger me..."

See, no one can tell you how you feel...what you choose to think, believe, perceive or your viewpoint. They are already valid because they are yours. When they do this, they are abusing...good to know. No one defines us, our stuff, only we do that.

Rejection is telling you that you aren't good enough, not what is wanted...that's soul searing stuff. Guilt is saying you should be enough, if only you'd change, stop doing or start doing...or start being and stop being.

Same rejection in there, isn't there?

Guilt also makes you powerful...in a way which isn't real.

Guilt is not living up to others' expectations.

Shame is not living up to your own.

I'm not guilting, shaming, blaming or judging. I'm saying "Here's your power...here's where you choose." If you believe your WW has an OM#3 since October...I believe you. You're living it; I'm not.

And I believe in sharing that truth you found out about...seems you researched and knew before you shared...because you want to not live in lies...and I believe you did that.

That's my opinion. My beliefs...they aren't yours and do not have to be. I believe you know the definition of an affair...when one partner puts anything ahead of their marriage...be it a hobby, a person, resentment...anything. When fantasy is a higher priority than reality...you're going to feel anger, pain, fear...

I'm asking you to consider all your relationships...with the kids, as well. I'm not telling you you're not a good guy...I'm asking you to find where all your pain is coming from and address it. If you had relationships (and I believe you do) with the kids...continue those. They are separate from the marriage.

Sometimes, what hurts like ***** is signalled to us by making our focus on something else...our internal distraction...and I'm asking you what you want to do in regards to them. Asking about them isn't the same as asking them...hearing what they think, feel...their stuff.

Thank you for confirming that your M2 didn't get to Phase II, either.

And that you were dating WW before her divorce was final. This wasn't judgment...again, to know all of it...to find all your lines and trace them.

Clear lines are what we live by. You have them in Navy...if this happens, do this. You have a code...I'm asking you to discern your own code...what each choice of action (which leaves no room for reactive) is coming from.

I believe your WW is having a current affair...with resentment...and in her head, she has lots of fantasies and looped thinking...which involve others...because the succor of fantasy isn't real...it's temporary...and she's done this her whole life...

One of the things you shared was your fear she's a walkaway wife...that when she leaves, she's gone. You got this from her first marriage...she didn't look back. And you knew this and understood this in your marriage...did you believe that her XH was the reason? His abuse, his actions?

If that's what you thought when you began with her...then you're in his shoes now, aren't you? That can cause a lot of pain.

Know where your pain is coming from...find your choices, your truth...that's good enough. It's real. Knowing yourself without judgment is an act of love and trust.

Trust yourself.

LA

Reply from WW... Things are now getting intresting!

Michael is full of hot air, no he couldn't of taken me away if he wanted to, yea he is a big flirt, and that is as far as it went. Did you call him or what? You read old text messages??? Are you also reading old emails, and old runescape conversations? What are you doing Jim? You have that much time to dig through old crap, and why would you want to anyways?


I think I should send her exactly what I sent OM

"I Was recently provided/given evidance you have been and are having an affair with my wife Bobi. WTF".

OK Pros, Would you advice I send her that? What do you think? I am in uncharted terrotory here and would like your guidance on the best way to proceed...

Jim

Techi,

On this I will disagree with you, I am following the advice of my attorney, that is what I pay him for. He is one of the top 3 lawyers in town at family law. he is well aware I hope for a recon, he was given a copy of the plan B letter before WW got it...

I have many options I have not used. I can delay, postpone, cancel etc. right up until the gavel drops, I asked about a seperation he advise against it, it has limitations as it locks me in for a full 12 months, and I still couldn't stop WW if she filed, as Wi is no fault.

Jim

Jim,

I wasn't blaming you for your choices, your actions, your PBL...you said it was lousy, I didn't.

I did the best I could. that is all I can do, I am not perfect.

I'm not judging you. I believe you have been re-experiencing this all your life, in each relationship:

"Probably, rejection for sure. Mom was a manipulator. , heck so was sister they play guilt like a fiddle... Rejection as well probably... They would always “tell you” how you feel, won’t validate your feelings... tends to really anger me..."

See, no one can tell you how you feel...what you choose to think, believe, perceive or your viewpoint. They are already valid because they are yours. When they do this, they are abusing...good to know. No one defines us, our stuff, only we do that.

Yes I know, I know it is abuse.. I deserve better. I know that to... But they are also what they are, I accept that. There was a time i would swallow it now I push back hard, and let them know they crossed my boundry.

Rejection is telling you that you aren't good enough, not what is wanted...that's soul searing stuff. Guilt is saying you should be enough, if only you'd change, stop doing or start doing...or start being and stop being.

Same rejection in there, isn't there?

Yes and I know that too...I had that chat with mom after last D and a year with my shrink.. I asked simple question why couldn't i be loved for just being Jim. Just be good enough as I was not having to be something someone expected me to be...

I'm not guilting, shaming, blaming or judging. I'm saying "Here's your power...here's where you choose." If you believe your WW has an OM#3 since October...I believe you. You're living it; I'm not.

I did electronic intel ok, That is my best evaluation of the evidance\data. Could I be wrong yes, it wasn't complete I can't read minds and I didn't catch them red handed. But it sure seems to fit very neatly into the time frame things went south amd the senerio very well.

And I believe in sharing that truth you found out about...seems you researched and knew before you shared...because you want to not live in lies...and I believe you did that.

That was a powerful accustion I don't like accusing without my ducks in a row as best I can.

That's my opinion. My beliefs...they aren't yours and do not have to be. I believe you know the definition of an affair...when one partner puts anything ahead of their marriage...be it a hobby, a person, resentment...anything. When fantasy is a higher priority than reality...you're going to feel anger, pain, fear...

She placed him and the other dude and the game before me...
that was unacceptable. nuff said

I'm asking you to consider all your relationships...with the kids, as well. I'm not telling you you're not a good guy...I'm asking you to find where all your pain is coming from and address it. If you had relationships (and I believe you do) with the kids...continue those. They are separate from the marriage.

Ok inner child stuff... Much of the pain was moms rejection/head games. at least I am I am pretty sure. So i fear rejection/seek approval from women... enough froid

Kids I will try but i have no rights...

Sometimes, what hurts like ***** is signalled to us by making our focus on something else...our internal distraction...and I'm asking you what you want to do in regards to them. Asking about them isn't the same as asking them...hearing what they think, feel...their stuff.

Thank you for confirming that your M2 didn't get to Phase II, either.

And that you were dating WW before her divorce was final. This wasn't judgment...again, to know all of it...to find all your lines and trace them.

Clear lines are what we live by. You have them in Navy...if this happens, do this. You have a code...I'm asking you to discern your own code...what each choice of action (which leaves no room for reactive) is coming from.


ok code got it. I didn't voilated any of my inner princaples in our R from first date until she left the house. Since then I did once. I know it and have counsled mysef and forgiven myself for teh moment of weekness.

I believe your WW is having a current affair...with resentment...and in her head, she has lots of fantasies and looped thinking...which involve others...because the succor of fantasy isn't real...it's temporary...and she's done this her whole life...

OK thank you.. I just was seeking an outside opinion, if my logic was well logical...

One of the things you shared was your fear she's a walkaway wife...that when she leaves, she's gone. You got this from her first marriage...she didn't look back. And you knew this and understood this in your marriage...did you believe that her XH was the reason?

I would say yes right up until well about January, I am repidly reevaluating this however... she calimed He was abusibse and controling etc... He is to some degree I have seen this, I also think she transferd it to me... She sees my actions that are simular (but diffrent motive completly) in the same light... does that make sense?

If that's what you thought when you began with her...then you're in his shoes now, aren't you? That can cause a lot of pain.

Bingo..

Know where your pain is coming from...find your choices, your truth...that's good enough. It's real. Knowing yourself without judgment is an act of love and trust.

Trust yourself.

I do trust myself mostly, but i do like to take a gut check as well to make sure i am not over-reacting...

Jim

My reply


Subject: what?


Michael is full of hot air, no he couldn't of taken me away if he wanted to, yea he is a big flirt, and that is as far as it went.

He said it I didn't

Did you call him or what?
E mailed this simple message "I Was recently provided/given evidance you have been and are having an affair with my wife Bobi. WTF". ...

You read old text messages???
no
Are you also reading old emails,
no

and old runescape conversations?
no

What are you doing Jim?

Since you asked, I am Just stating what I beleive to be the truth based on information that was given to me and what I was able to confirm to the best of my ability and to my satisfaction, If I am wrong, I am honestly wrong, but it sure appears I am not.

I love you, I don't want a divorce, I would perfer we would work togeather, get help and rebuild our marrage.
I believe this can happen, I beleive we could both be happy togeather and make the marraige a blessing.
I beleive it would take work on both our parts but that it is very acheivable. I am prepaired to do everything
in my power to make the changes in myself needed so I don't love bust anymore and to meet your Emotional needs.

I am doing the best I can by myself to make those changes already and improving myself based on your LB/EN questioner.
I could be more effective with feedback, but I am trying just the same.
I hope in time the desire will return to give our marrage a chance and to work at making both of us equally happy.
I cannot control what you do, and I don't want to, that would be disrespectful and that is one of your top concerns so I must avoid doing it.
I hope at some point you will freely choose to do so, but that is not my choice to make.
The changes I am working on benifit me too so they are a win win...

I beleive you are aware about my second Marrage, and why it ended.
I know, I could not hope to rebuild our marrage if there is an active affair ongoing. (to me an afffair can be emotional, physical or both)
I also know if the affair is over and finished, I still love you, hurt yes, but I still love you and would try my hardest to make our marraige work.
I beleive what is done is done So there is no good to be gotten from dwelling on what can't be changed.
I am much more conerned about the future where I / we can make the changes we would both want so we would both be happy.

You have that much time to dig through old crap, and why would you want to anyways?
I am busy actually, I did very little digging, I only "digging" I did was to confirm or disprove the information I was given.
Most of the info appears to check out some of course I cannot prove or disprove or didnt want to.


Love Jim

You had her wondering HOW you got the info. You realize that her e-mail showed no remorse.

When a WS is probing for answers a BS should NOT accommodate. Instead the BS should be mute. It is good the WS wonders. The more she is forced to think, the sooner she can recover.

In the future, don't be quick to give her answers or give away your source.

L.

opppps...

Made another mistake then. Man I need halp navagating this mine field. that is why i ask for help, this is very high stakes and I am a rookie...

Orchid, if i read your note correctly, however you believe she knows she is busted big time, Can I aslo safley assume their actions (in addition to the info/data) support my conclusion they are having an A. and the OM really tipped their hand with his bravodo...


With the note I followed my instinct and told the truth.
I also tried to use LA's advice and pull the content to my power and boundry, not DJ/LB I also wanted to be the lighthouse and show her the path to the safe harbor from the storm she has created for herself. I don't hate her, I know I contributed in making conditions condusive for that
A.

I also wanted her to know I am not just sitting here digging dirt. I have better things to do and that this time "someone" came to me and that the knowledge maybe wider spread then she reailizes..

I tried to use all I statements and own myself my power and set my boundary at the same time Did my letter accomplish this I don't know...


Jim

I sent a email check your in box...

Ok an off topic update.

Went to the Local honky tonk last night (not hunting) but to have fun. The Band was great! Man I had the most fun I have had in maybe 10 years, probably pre WW #2. Seriously unwond and let the Jim shine through...

The weight loss is really noticable now, I was looking good, getting lots of complements from people (gals mostly but a couple guys too) who knew me before!

The owner (called MA) said I was making the place look good, even had me walk her Duaghter to her car when she left the bar (for saftey) I was dancing with 2 of the prettest gals in the place and was cutting the rug ok for a 47 year old guy... I was grinning ear to ear like a chesesire cat (i havn't smiled, laughed and sang lake that in a very long time) Talk about a serious self esteam infusion. Found myself standing taller and strighter, felt the confidance re-surging... I actually felt when I asked a gal to dance they would agree, not wonder if I would be turned down. 3 of the pretter ones asked if I would be back newt week when i was heading out and saying my goodbyes and thanking them for a fun evening...

You know I am a nice guy, I am not hard on the eyes, I can dance and laugh and be fun to be around... If this M don't make it, you know I will be OK...

Jim

She may be in the "if it isnt physical, it isnt an affair" camp. Kinda sounds like she is.
If so, you're going to get nowhere by pushing her to admit "you're having an affair", because she's probably going to say "no I'm not, i've never had sex with him", and reject anything else you say.

Right now, you certainly have enough to show that she is emotionally entangled with this other guy.
However, unless you have proof that they spent time together alone, in a bedroom or something... I strongly suggest that you never accuse her of having a physical affair, and also make it very clear in everything you say, to not imply that that has happened.

'cause if you do, and that hasn't actually happened... again, everything you say will be tossed out the window, and all you will be doing is just aggravating the situation between you two. (and aggravating it without cause, which is even worse)

and what reasoning did he give you?
in what way does a divorce better "protect" you financially, than a legal separation?

or is there more to it than just financial reasons?


"locks you in"? huh? what's the problem here?
From the moment you start the process (if it's like california) you have legal protection. Heck, even BEFORE then! It's all about the "date of separation", which is usually retroactive. Meanwhile, during those 12 months, you are not "locked into" something that says, "I'm looking to dissolve our marriage". Contrast having a "legal separation" hanging over you, with having a "divorce" hanging over you?

if you're so concerned about joint debt, then just close any joint credit cards, equity lines, etc.
There, done. You're protected from 90% of anything that could happen to you.

And how does "you filing for divorce first" in any way "protect" you from your wife filing for divorce?
(i'm sure your lawyer will give you lots of mumbo jumbo; but the bottom line is: you arent any more "protected" from the "running up join debt" thing... and you certainly arent any more protected from your marriage being smashed on the rocks either)


I suggest that you stop taking marital advice, from a DIVORCE LAWYER !
I believe that you are seriously damaging your marital relationship, by pushing for a divorce yourself.
Telling your wife "i dont want a divorce", while at the same time, you are the one filing for divorce.. that's two-faced. It just doesnt work. it discredits all your words with her.

Plus, it's one of the basic basic things on here: Let the WS file for divorce, not you.

I will again respectfull disagree.

I take legal advice from my attorney, that is why I have him.

If I filed for legal sep she could still file for the D I just lost money I dont have... With out a temporaty order in place I am jointly responcable for any debt she occurs. I can close the cards etc and she can open a new one and I am still on the hook, joint property state.

The purpose of the filing was to secure marital assets.
And to protect me. if i filed for sep then it went to D it would cost twice as much... Money I do not have, Filing for a D, I can cancel it anytime if needed, postpone if needed, I have many options...

Also i know this attorney, he did my first D in 1992 and for my sister, he is very good and I trust him completey.

Jim

Oh, ok. SO, money is the most important thing to you. gotcha. just wanted to understand your priorities...

Tell me... if your car broke down right now... would you take out a loan to get a new one?
Or would you say, "i dont have money right now" and walk everywhere?

Most of the expensive stuff will be handled in the legal separation. The divorce bit after that, would be relatively cheap. there's nothing left to argue about. would almost definately be under $5,000. possibly even $2,000, i would guess.



yup, lots of options... except the option of your words being consistent with your actions.


well, thats great then. He has an excellent track record...
of helping you get divorced

Back up.

you are now crossing boundries. stop the DJ.I heard your opinion i disagreeed with it. that is my choice.
respect it or please keep it to yourself.

Jim

You need to back up. You guys disagreed in your opinion over this and need to leave it at that.

Filing for D, or going thru with it...it is all just a paperwork issue, a technicality. And no, money is NOT his number one priority.

????

that's like when people live together for XYZ number of years, and say "marriage? oh, that's just a piece of paper. we dont need that 'technicality'"

a divorce is not "just paperwork".
yes, marriages have been rebuilt after a divorce. but that does not make the divorce process somehow merely 'a technicality'.

maybe it isnt in his head... but his actions right now, say money is his number one priority.

Thanks Dog!

Techi, Unless your God, you can't know my heart or my soul.

Filing for and going through a divorce is not something I am looking forward too, I don't want it at this time period. Someday it may come to that but that day isn't today...

Everyone's advice here has been protect yourself and your assets from the WS. That is exactly what I am doing.

I am sure cutting her off my checking account didn't make her feel safe or secure of for that matter taking back the house keys, car keys credit card, ATM card...

All these things I would have perferd not to have to do. I would have perferd her to not to have an A too for that matter.

What I have done I have done on the advice of legal counsel to protect myself from a WS. Fully 1/2 all filed divorces don't go through and are stopped. I hope mine is one of them. However if the WW dosn't become a FWW relitivly soon or make an effort toward becoming one, then it does need to proceed...

I respect your opinion, I just disagreee with it. I only ask the the same courtesy. I am living this crap, I am the one who has to take make the decisions, take the risks and ultimatly I am the one who will pay the piper, not you.

If you cant respect my beliefs and choices please leave my thread... Nuff said.

jim

ken

couldn't you file for a legal separation instead?

yes We could have, if we both agreeded to a sep, and not a D however she incicated wanting a d not a sep...

jim

Ken,

Let's simply it for you a bit. Even if the A seems to be done, doesn't mean the attitude and selfish desire which fueled the A is gone.

This stuff takes time to extract and destroy.

In the interim, the BS needs to play it smart. There are ways you can test the status of the Ws vs. Xws vs. spouse. Learn the differences. It is vital you know this. Then learn how to interact (as needed) with each character.

You don't want to treat each character (i.e. WS, Xws or W) the same. Treat each according to the degree that will bring benefit to you and your family. This takes skill and practice.

So for now, I will tell you there are several things you need to be doing:

1. Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.
2. Read up on SAA and HNHN.
3. Identify if possible your W's ENs and make sure you know the difference between the WS, Xws and your W.

4. Know your ENs and your personal along with M boundaries.
5. Secure your finances.
6. Secure your local support group.
7. Get with a good MC / IC perferably familar with MB principals or better yet, call Jennifer C @ MB for a plan.

When you start on this path, there will be less time for any pity party and wasted time trying to educate a WS. This is useless and drains the BS of vital resources.

Keep posting. Your personal recovery is where you will find results 1st.

take care,
L.

And, Jim, you must be willing to be ALONE. I know that is a scarey thought, but it the best way to recovery, and a brighter future. Most of us don't like being alone, but if you force yourself, you might grow to tolerate it.

The problem with the inability to be alone is that you keep jumping into one inappropriate relationship after another. You have a lot to offer a woman. Take your time, and work on recovery, and then a relationship.