What is everyone else's opinion?

Have already filed... i don't what a d I want the W back... but i think she is in serious MLC right now...

jim

Young and dumb as in if I had waited 4 months I would have feel out of love... Married 2 years however it was really over after 6 mo, i walked on this one... 1 child my only son... M at 19 D 21

M2 at age 36, dated 5 months and she asked me ...was married 2 months later... M was good until my ship returned to sea... when I can back from a 6 week cruse caught her messing with another man, loved her dearly,
Didn't want the D, would have reconed, she simply left NC for 11 months and I filed prior to moving back to Wi.

M3 age 46, met may 2000 dated 1 year engaged summer 2001, moved in togeather 2004. M 2006.

She went bonkers after the M... I make mistakes hard year took 6k paty cut, was over working bring ing work home... Lots of job stress... She started changing pretty quickly after the Mt..
Was WW 2nd M 1at was 18 years 1st time. She left him...

I Had severial LTR besides... 1 engagment ended when the Gal slept with a college classmate, after I transfered to Pcola (she was to finish the semister) Severial other LTR that ended due to transfer/deployment... Navy is hard on Relationships...

Jim


....

Jim, why don't you forward OM's e-mail to WW and say only "Just received this from OM, thought you might be interested". The response should really be interesting. I would say if she us really not having a PA, that she would be mortified by his response " I could probably have WW if i wanted her".

not sure it is worth getting into a dailog with the Punk...
or with the WW... right now... They don't know my evidance just that I have it... And my evidance wasn't text message content... It was more like a phone call/ mail/ and a picture with them being cozy... The content of the call, mail was basically saying he was doing my WW... Phone logs ware used as confirming evidance, not primary evidance...

Also who told him I read the text messenges... what he told me (text messenges)?

Also it is obivious OM was given some info from someone... (pastor i donot think so) Then who is left? WW?

Note in his email he mentions my reading text messenges... But what I said to him was...

"I was recently provided/given evidance you have been and are having an affair with my wife Bobi. WTF."

Note my exact text to him never mentioned text messenges, or reading them it said I was provided/given evidance...

At first it smacks of bravado, but on reflection I may have rattled his cage... He assumes I have read them and is gaslighting them it appears... His actions smack of guilt to me but i would like a concenious from the group on that one...

jim

PS a note I am getting the feeling that with the current state of the WW entitment mentality she doen't really care what i think or what her actions do to me. or fot that matter what he said.. I am starting to wish I would just have the courage to get off this nightmare ride, cut myself free and move on back to the living... What am I afraid of? what could be worse then this?

BUMP COME ON FOLKS

Ok here is the latest i just recieved this e,ail from WW..

You need to stop callin everyone and saying I"m having a affair... please! You have to stop this.. I am not seein anyone!! Yes, I flirted.. I admit that! You are carrying this too far, calling ron, my dad, and Michaels' pastor. You need to quit digging in the past and let it go, what purpose is it serving? When your like this...accusing and assuming about things with me, I have no interest in seeing or talking with you. ~Bobi


i think it is done...

Ken,

With regard to OM#3, don't argue with an idiot or you will sound like one. You have your evidence, and you know it. Use the evidence as you see fit, but don't deal with any of the OM. I just doesn't do any good. You make them the "victim" in WW eyes.

As for hanging in there, frankly I would take Dr. H's advice. You cannot fix your W, you cannot control your W, and you cannot make her love or respect you. She has to see the good in you for herself, and she is not looking. This marriage didn't make it a year, your first did not make it two years.

I am guessing that if you are not out yet, you will be out of the Navy soon. Wait and learn. What can you learn? It seems to me you make hasty decisions in some cases and you did not look at the data in others. I know you were with WW for 5 years before marrying here, but I am betting there were clues to her behavior. You need to be able to pick up on those clues.

WHY? Because as you become more comfortable picking up the clues, your need to in control, or always there, or having lack of trust (not surprising given the behavior of your last two W's) will drop dramatically. Hone those skills, and then seek women that you can read well, so that you let them be who they are. I am guessing your WW was not a woman you could read well, probably because her basic nature was secretive.

Just some thoughts, I hope at least a few were of help.

God Bless,

JL

I would like peoples (especally the Pros) opinion of OM reply (do you feel he looks guilty) and WW reply...

Did I rattle there cages sufficantly, from their notes does it appear pressure being applied (esp on WW)...

Is this going to cook my goose further is it a Big LB?


I sometimes think I am toast and just hanging on to a sinking ship...

You folks here need to know just how much streghth I recieve from every reply, from every post and from every confirmation i am doing the right thing... I couldn't do this without you folks help and support! Thanks
everyone!

I am going back dark... won't talk to WW or OM further... Besides, I have nothing to say...


Jim

make up your mind,and then make your actions consistent.

If you want a divorce, then pursue it, and quit messing around. You dont need to be exposing to people, if you want a divorce. That would be just vindictive.

If you dont want a divorce, then DROP IT, and continue in your "Plan A" efforts.

OM #3 told you he's not guilty. Personally, I believe him.

Guilt means you have a knowledge that you are doing something wrong.

Embarassment means that you feel like you aren't responsible for the awkward situation you find yourself in.

Shame means you have let someone else down by doing wrong.

This guy doesn't feel guilt, shame or embarassment.

Your wife sounds lik ehe feels embarassment because of the awkward situation of your accusing her of having an affair. There is no guilt or shame.

I think the only hope you have is with exposure, but I doubt there's much hope.

Sometimes you have to face that you married someone with different values than you.

Cherishing

Techi

I filed becuase Wis is a community property state after she moved out , I would be equally responcably for any debt she occured...

Cherishing
I personally saw him flirting with her, she took him to a bar when I was out of town on bussiness (from her own sons lips to me), she took him to a concert the night I cam home from a bussiness trip (my own eyes) I have a pic of then sitting so close togeather (matching shirts) and huge smiles in my living room they are like glued togeather, i have 4000 plus msg between them, I have 70+ phone calls,

This was after i was called and warned they were having an A... the M went south 4 weeks after he started comming around...

Also we were pretty good for like 6 years... until she changed... her son to me saysd his mom changed and is acting 25 and says she is in MLC...

Ok I could be wrong but the evidance looks allful compelling dosn't it?


Jim


PS if it is over, ok it is over... I will move on, I just don't want to quit if it isn't over... does that make any sense?

so the consenious is for me to just walk away, and move on...


Jim

Jim,

Wow...just finished your whole thread. To go in reverse, I vote for forwarding OM's email to WW without commentary.

I agree about not replying to OM's email.

Now...what are your lines? I don't see where you probe yourself for clarity...my perception is that you very much have lived through others, especially women, and have lived from your feelings.

Hey, I've been there, lived that way for four decades...no bash here. What I'm wondering is if you really want to change your life experience?

So, to clear lines:

"I would like peoples (especally the Pros) opinion of OM reply (do you feel he looks guilty) and WW reply..."

When your focus is on others, your self hurts. I see you attempting to figure out all the ways your WW escapes...to whom, which times...finding the truth of her actions which were hidden. May feel like you're seeking truth...may also be you're seeking others' eyes to look out of.

Your own eyes and intent are good enough, Jim. Always have been. You didn't expose on whim--you shared truth, what you knew. Sounds like you're asking after the act if you were right? Need confirmation from others you weren't wrong or mistaken?

If you shared truth with bias...see, see this is what she's doing...then you're gonna desire confirmation. If you shared truth to say, "This is what I believe is harming my marriage" then you won't. Your truth stands...reasonable, sound and from your intent to live in and from truth. A reality bringer.

What is your clear line on O&H and truth?

"Did I rattle there cages sufficantly,"

From this, I hear your intent was to upset, expose to get a certain response...rather than share truth. Can you see where lines blur if your intent is to control...have an effect, and if your intent is to act in truth and share it? We all have hidden expectations and beliefs...part of a human coping mechanism...when we use it to an extreme, we do damage to ourselves and others (WS's do this). When we don't use it enough, we spiral downward. Clearing the lines of your own whys is crucial to live in balance. Choosing your intent and owning your actions is how you get in the middle.

Yes, exposure acts like light on cockroaches...that's an outcome...you don't control any outcome. When we make our goal an outcome, then we are controlling...takes us believing we are the cause, control and cure...when our intent is to know and share truth and let the outcome go, then we are living in truth, respecting our limits and power, even before we take the action.

"from their notes does it appear pressure being applied (esp on WW)..."

DJs are sneaky beliefs...they harm us as much as they harm others and our relationships. One of the most important ENs your WW didn't seem to meet for you was O&H...I want you to flip that desire onto yourself...in this statement, are you really asking for others to comfort you through divining the unknown? Are you asking to know what you can't know so you can base your actions on theirs?

Settle yourself, Jim, into reality. Know what you don't know. You expose and let the outcome go...that's reality. Outcome has always been out of your control. May feel fearful, terrifying and cause anxiety. That's okay. You can sit with those signals...and trace them. They've been running your life for as long as you've lived. How about not running from them (into others), and not acting from them? Would you consider getting to know them...your own signals...finding out what you truly believe...and if they are valid adult beliefs from your adult experience...or really old ones, from your childhood, stored, hidden, yet making your life choices from?

Being O&H with ourselves is huge...finding what we're really thinking, feeling, believing will tell us why we are perceiving, viewing and reacting.

"Is this going to cook my goose further is it a Big LB?"

Is truth an LB? Can it be? I believe this is where Harley's writings overlap, need more distinction. When you have a marriage without infidelity or crisis, then hearing, acknowledging and validating your partner's concerns (they hate your snoring, lagging on DS, shaving and leaving the hairs in the sink) as LBs. Things which aren't about who you really are...little things (annoying habits especially) you do, possibly unaware, which you can choose to stop doing or do differently. As an act of love.

LBs aren't speaking and knowing truth, living in reality (all parts of who you really are). It is one of the key indicators of living externally...where you hide your own truth in order to not be rejected...which rejects your innocent self.

And you'll know you're doing this when you feel great anger when others hide their truth from you. Because you're doing it. It's where the freefall fear comes from.

Can you write a list of all the ways you LB yourself?

"I sometimes think I am toast and just hanging on to a sinking ship..."

You choose to think you are toast and hanging on to a sinking ship. You choose your thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspective. And then you experience life from those choices, and the feelings follow them.

OUCH! Choose not to abuse yourself, Jim. You don't know if the ship is really sinking or not. You only know your part, your half. That's reality. You CANNOT be toast...and you posted this analogy before as you thinking your marriage was toast. Know your cyclical thinking...so familiar and automatic to you that you don't realize you're doing these false comfort patterns...they often feel like pain and anger, not comfort. Yet, to manage your feelings instead of be aware and trace them, you do this.

Choose to love yourself directly.

Can you find four or five themes in your life? I identified rejection and acceptance...that's like one theme. Do/say this and you'll feel accepted...earn love. Or punishment (rejection).

What are other ones you can identify? How about abandonment/intimacy?

"You folks here need to know just how much streghth I recieve from every reply, from every post and from every confirmation i am doing the right thing... I couldn't do this without you folks help and support! Thanks
everyone!"

I have no doubt you do...we confirm you are whole, alive, worth praying, thinking, writing about and to...can you take a real moment and see where you have always been, are and will be that? Without a word spoken or an action taken...you are worthy, valuable (priceless), whole and complete? You truly are. You're human. What I see as the force that keeps kicking your own tushie is your own foot...you don't believe this inside you...haven't accepted this as the truth of being made human...and others cannot fill you up enough...even those who took vows (and then broke them)...and you're breaking a vow to yourself to love, honor and cherish who you really are...which is one we took at our making with God.

"I am going back dark... won't talk to WW or OM further... Besides, I have nothing to say..."

Here's how you cross your own lines. You are choosing to go dark because _________...to manipulate others or protect yourself? To live in reality or continue fantasy (manipulation is fantasy)...or because you have nothing to say, nothing worth sharing because you're worth sharing?

Or because you feel attacked, discounted, rejected, you'll go dark again?

Getting to all your own whys...not hers, his or any others (these are GREAT distractions...I know...I remember) is how we love ourselves well and truly; and thereby love others well and truly in our lifetimes.

I believe when we are used to others defining us, we accept their definitions because we live externally...and we go through others' eyes to see ourselves. Has daily betrayal in that choice. From your WW's email, I think I see something:

"You need to stop callin everyone and saying I"m having a affair... please! You have to stop this.. I am not seein anyone!! Yes, I flirted.. I admit that! You are carrying this too far, calling ron, my dad, and Michaels' pastor. You need to quit digging in the past and let it go, what purpose is it serving? When your like this...accusing and assuming about things with me, I have no interest in seeing or talking with you. ~Bobi"

All her YOU statements are attacking. I think you're used to hearing these...which translates to "You're in control, you're powerful, you're to blame, you're the screwup" as you statements tend to do. What her half of communication is ends and yours begins...halfway mark. Think about you statements and how full of DJs they are...like you asking, "Am I right?" instead of knowing if you are or not.

Here's how her email would look with ownership...and I do this to share how important this is for every human...and only we do it for ourselves.

"I feel attacked and maligned. I know you called people who are dear to me. They said you believed I am having an affair. I don't believe I am. I don't believe flirting is adulterous behavior. I want you to stop bringing my mind to look at my choices. I feel exposed and fearful that others know what I'm doing. I've felt vulnerable to judgment all my life, ESPECIALLY by these very people.

I feel manipulated and pressured by your choices. I want you to not know what I've hidden from you. I don't want you to love or be in pain because of me. My mind goes to how can you gain from knowing my secrets. My perception is that you judge me and assume a lot about me instead of asking to know. I feel threatened and am not attracted to you right now."

Until you get your own lines clear to what is the truth, her truth, your truth...you won't be able to perceive her email in this way. You'll hear you're powerful in a terrible, wrong, judged way...and that will be your choice, not her doing to you.

Now here was your Plan B letter...

"This will either be the the Last Love letter I ever write you or one of many more to come... That decision is in your hands."

See, I had a hard time with this first line both times. If you're in a power struggle with life...where you see yourself done to or doing to, then you're not living a life of ownership. You could choose to write a thousand love letters to her...would be your choice. Not hers. Shifting power is shifting blame and has no foothold in reality.

PBL's are about YOUR decisions...from reality and about choices.

I do think you may have a theme in your life about blame/power and it may be tied strongly to rejection/acceptance.

"I love you with all my heart and my soul, I have from the beginning and I do today. I have no desire for a divorce, my only wish is for us to be happy and in love with each other, I know this is possible if we both tried."

Would you consider digging deeper into yourself? Would these statements be true for you?

"I do not choose to do divorce. I believe marriages can recover and be rebuilt. I am learning how I make myself happy, choose to love and do not doubt I am capable of being a thriving half of our marriage."

"This past year has been very difficult for me, as you became entwined in the fantasy of Runescape, James You just stopped spending time with me, this was one of the most painful periods in my life."

Can you hear the you statements? What do you feel when she says "you do and I feel"? How does this sound to you saying this? Anything close to "You are the cause of my pain, my joy, my feeling?" How O&H were you with your own sharing? This isn't me blaming...I'm asking you to examine a premise you may live from...when others ignore you, you are erased, have no presence, no choices. By looking at our past choices, we can see more clearly how our present choices can be different.

"I missed the closeness and intimacy we used to share, I lost my lover and I lost my best friend. And yes I know all about the Affair with Michael T, this was the most painful of all, I just recieved the finial peice to that puzzle..."

To more clearly see lines...you missed the closeness and intimacy YOU felt. You feel like you lost your lover and best friend. This is your truth, worth knowing and sharing. The final piece isn't a DJ, the puzzle is.

"Bobi, I acknowledge my shortcomings that may have led to your escaping to runescape, James and the affair. I should have told how just much I loved you, I should have told how truly beautiful, and sexy you are. I should have been a husband who allowed you to fell safe enough to share anything with me, I should have listened better and heard you when you spoke. I should have stood strong for you and not listened to others when it came to your well being , for my mistakes I ask your forgiveness."

This is the great part of a Plan A or Plan B letter...I'm wondering if this is truly your areas, though. "I chose not to" instead of shoulds. If you replaced each should with a chose not to...are you nearer your power and limits? Even in good marriages, where they did the shoulds, A's took place. So if you're saying here that if you'd chosen to be more aware, honest and sharing, then she wouldn't have had a reason to escape, create and nuture resentment into entitlement, then you're owning what isn't yours. And if you would choose differently now, not to stave off her choices, but to live from honesty...you would choose to state your love, your opinions, perceptions...listen and repeat to know, not to do...to respect, not to react...then you've gleaned a lot.

"The conditions for our rebuilding our marriage are very simple.

The Affair with Michael T must stop, and you can never have contact With Michael T again."

The difference between truth and controlling is when you control, you eliminate respect of others' choices. Truth is that the importance of her choices are equal to your own. "To rebuild would take you choosing to end all contact with OM. Marriage is about two people, not three. As long as you choose contact, our marriage would be one of three people."

"We Return to counseling.. We turn off the damn computers and look to each other to fulfill our needs. Recommit to each other to be the others one and only true love and make each other the #1 priority in each other lives. Turn to each other and seek each others counsel and agreement on any decision. Jealously guard and protect each others heart and feelings as if they were our own ."

This would be blurry because you have taken on her anger as your doing; put on her your own definitions. This does come later, when there is mutuality; it's a following outcome of doing your part, being aware and present. Same for her.

"Defend each other against anyone who would harm us or our marriage."

This says you feel outsiders have done this to your marriage. I think you meant knowing and owning our own boundaries, to protect ourselves and our marriage. You mentioned being more comfortable in the friendship of women...do you have female friends, during your relationship with WW, where you confided and sought to be heard? You minding your own boundaries is within your control. Minding hers is not.

"I know this might seem challenging at first,

No ownership. Is this challenging to you or not?

"I know I can and I will do what is required of me to make this happen."

I see you already doing it. You have the choice to already be the right partner...even now, in Plan B. No future required.

"The question is can you?"

We all can...doesn't mean we will. And you defined "the question"...which is controlling.

"I will also do what is needed of me to support you in your efforts to make our marriage a blessing."

Clear lines is the best support...learning your code, what you live up to and enforcing your boundaries. That's real human support. Not earning. Doesn't require her efforts, either.

"I have already made my choice, that choice was made July 3rd 2001, it was affirmed on Feb 11,2006. You freely choose to take my ring, and you freely choose to become my wife. I just ask that you think about the past 6 years,"

This says you don't believe she has thought or is thinking of the last six years. Ouch. I did this a lot...my disrespect was automatic. Check yours. Know what you are asking and if you are asking plainly, truthfully.

"Will you now freely choose to try one more time and fulfill the dream that out marriage held when we place the rings on each other fingers?"

Speaking of rings...you took off yours because she took off hers? You chose to take yours off although the truth is you are married. You remain married. This was your choice about you...you hurt mightily when she wasn't wearing hers. What she chooses is separate from your choices. Clear your lines so you can plainly see where you give yourself permission to go to fantasy through her choices.

"There is still time to save and rebuild our marrage, but it is growing short."

Again, defining the circumstance instead of stating your perspective. Good to know. There is a controlling threat here because there's no ownership. "I am learning to respect your choices and I fear I won't want you back if you stop your A. I know in my head I want our marriage very much. I've been given to acting from my feelings all my life and fear I will do so again." That's real...if that's yours. I'm showing how to state and own without overstepping.

"Until you make this decision to end this afffair, and resume counseling we must remain completely separated, without any contact,"

Again, no ownership. "Until you end your affair, I believe you remain allowing undue influence, and without counseling, will not decide what you want for your life from clarity. I am choosing to not have any contact with you except through <blank> who has agreed to be my intermediary in the event of an emergency, or meet legal requirements. I do this to guard what remains of my loving feelings for you, to stop my reactivity to what feels like constant rejection."

The more you choose to own in your life, the less you will experience external done to's...and you won't feel blamed, because you'll have clean lines for what you are not responsible for.

Practicing is a great choice. On your thread, many people have responded. Take time to read what they say...even when they are just feeling your stuff and sharing their own feelings...listen and repeat, even here, to practice clarifying or confirming. If you are reading responses, searching out what you want to hear, to confirm in yourself, you'll miss God's message through others for you...which is about connecting and being safe to connect with.

You are fully in Phase II of marriage...Phase I is when we fall in love with our partners as caretakers in our minds...completing us...and it's our best image to their best image. You said you had other LTR between your divorce at 21 and next marriage at 36. These may well have reached Phase II and quickly dissolved. When our real selves come out to the meet and greet, we are seeing our self-image weaken and our real selves emerge...can be difficult for us and for our partners. Same for seeing our partners change from Phase I to Phase II.

Which is why you can reap the benefits of Phase II even in Plan B...learning about your true self and discerning that from your self-image. A new kind of meet and greet.

Phase III is worth it. Experiencing mature love surpasses Phase I, I promise.

I'm still struggling a bit with the timelines...WW was 18 when she married, or began her relationship with her H, married for 18 years? You say she left that marriage and never looked back. She was married to a minister, the father of her six children. How long was her divorce process? When was the final date of her divorce?

In regards to her children, you said you loved like your own. How often do you see them? An intermediary could help with scheduling your connect times with them. Do you talk to them by phone/email? How are they doing? You don't list their ages (though you said two were twins). You were in their lives for six years...living with them (some) for nearly three years. That's significant in a child's life.

And could you fill me in on how long your M#2 lasted? I got the dating/proposal timeline of seven months before marriage...I didn't catch the time interval between getting married and shipping out for your six-week cruise. I think it was brave of you to ask W#2 why...and you heard something you didn't know before. WW's make up reasons to have A's...they make their BH's choices as their permission...doesn't mean you have any control...does mean that knowing, as Orchid said, the difference between your W and your WW is essential to saving your marriage.

And your sanity.

And knowing where you may make your W's choices be what chooses yours. Good to know.

LA

Jim,

The letter is compelling evidence that he has no conscience. It wouldn't bother him if he was having an affair with your wife, and he wouldn't fault himself in any way.

Does that mean he is having an affair with your wife? No, but it does mean that he wouldn't feel guilty if he was.

The question is whether your wife has a conscience and is simply lying to herself about what she is doing.

I wouldn't give a second thought to the OM.

Cherishing

Wow is right! LA
I will try to do this offline and import it... I will attempt to answer your numerous questions and comments In red and different font... didn;t work my answers follow your questions...




Jim,

Wow...just finished your whole thread. To go in reverse, I vote for forwarding OM's email to WW without commentary.

OK Will forward no commentary...

I agree about not replying to OM's email.

Concur I won’t be

Now...what are your lines? I don't see where you probe yourself for clarity...my perception is that you very much have lived through others, especially women, and have lived from your feelings.

I don’t understand what you mean what are lines?

Hey, I've been there, lived that way for four decades...no bash here. What I'm wondering is if you really want to change your life experience?

YES, but I don’t get the Lines... part...

So, to clear lines:

"I would like peoples (especally the Pros) opinion of OM reply (do you feel he looks guilty) and WW reply..."

When your focus is on others, your self hurts. I see you attempting to figure out all the ways your WW escapes...to whom, which times...finding the truth of her actions which were hidden. May feel like you're seeking truth...may also be you're seeking others' eyes to look out of.
I just want to know what happened and why to understand what went wrong.

Your own eyes and intent are good enough, Jim. Always have been. You didn't expose on whim--you shared truth, what you knew. Sounds like you're asking after the act if you were right? Need confirmation from others you weren't wrong or mistaken?

Ok, in my gut, I think I am right, it feels right (it hurts like ****** too). If the data I was provided was good, it supports my conclusion, the information I found I have no doubt in. Think of this was as an Intel analysis seeking peer review, I am asking other analysis (the pro’s here) if they also draw the same conclusions from my information..

You’re also correct I am asking for validation from others a lot more knowledgeable about this stuff then I am. I took a very hard stance; I just want to know if other would have acted the same... I don’t trust my instincts as much as I should since this flew under the radar... .

If you shared truth with bias...see, see this is what she's doing...then you're gonna desire confirmation. If you shared truth to say, "This is what I believe is harming my marriage" then you won't. Your truth stands...reasonable, sound and from your intent to live in and from truth. A reality bringer.

I called it the way I saw it... and yes I think OM is killing my M...

What is your clear line on O&H and truth?
again I don’t get the “LINE bit”

"Did I rattle there cages sufficantly,"

From this, I hear your intent was to upset, expose to get a certain response...rather than share truth. Can you see where lines blur if your intent is to control...have an effect, and if your intent is to act in truth and share it? We all have hidden expectations and beliefs...part of a human coping mechanism...when we use it to an extreme, we do damage to ourselves and others (WS's do this). When we don't use it enough, we spiral downward. Clearing the lines of your own whys is crucial to live in balance. Choosing your intent and owning your actions is how you get in the middle.
The propose of exposure had 2 motives. .
1. To expose the A and to place pressure on the A... My understanding of the reason to expose is to place pressure that hopefully to causes it to implode. Then maybe the M can survive... Did I misunderstand something.

2. To let OM and WW know I know and I was not fooled. I know what is killing my M


Yes, exposure acts like light on cockroaches...that's an outcome...you don't control any outcome. When we make our goal an outcome, then we are controlling...takes us believing we are the cause, control and cure...when our intent is to know and share truth and let the outcome go, then we are living in truth, respecting our limits and power, even before we take the action.

I know I cannot control the outcome I have the power to start (or try) the chain reaction where it goes from there I don’t know. It is a calculated risk. Do nothing, M is dead, do something it may still be dead, but if A ends it may not be...

"from their notes does it appear pressure being applied (esp on WW)..."

DJs are sneaky beliefs...they harm us as much as they harm others and our relationships. One of the most important ENs your WW didn't seem to meet for you was O&H

Yes she closed down and became dishonest.

.I want you to flip that desire onto yourself...in this statement, are you really asking for others to comfort you through divining the unknown? Are you asking to know what you can't know so you can base your actions on theirs?

Yes and No. Ok in military speak... This is kind a like the fog of war you have to make decisions based on incomplete information. So I am asking if others are reading the tea leaves the same as I am. I am also seeing if (there experience) there is a better alternative then I am coming up with.

Being O&H with ourselves is huge...finding what we're really thinking, feeling, believing will tell us why we are perceiving, viewing and reacting.

ok O+H, I am flat scared of failing again, I am asking myself what am I doing wrong with my choices, I was so careful this time. I can make it, I know that but it will be hard and rough.

"Is this going to cook my goose further is it a Big LB?"

SNIP

Can you write a list of all the ways you LB yourself?
I will look into that...

OUCH! Choose not to abuse yourself, Jim. You don't know if the ship is really sinking or not.

This just seems some much like M2 ended...

Can you find four or five themes in your life? I identified rejection and acceptance...that's like one theme. Do/say this and you'll feel accepted...earn love. Or punishment (rejection).

Probably, rejection for sure. Mom was a manipulator. , heck so was sister they play guilt like a fiddle... Rejection as well probably... They would always “tell you” how you feel, won’t validate your feelings... tends to really anger me...

What are other ones you can identify? How about abandonment/intimacy?

I don’t know...

Or because you feel attacked, discounted, rejected, you'll go dark again?
Protect self from ^^^^^ each and all the last sentance .


From your WW's email, I think I see something:

All her YOU statements are attacking. I think you're used to hearing these...which translates to "You're in control, you're powerful, you're to blame, you're the screwup" as you statements tend to do.

Well she tells everyone it is my fault, everything is my fault, I don’t buy it...

Here's how her email would look with ownership...and I do this to share how important this is for every human...and only we do it for ourselves.

"I feel attacked and maligned. I know you called people who are dear to me. They said you believed I am having an affair. I don't believe I am. I don't believe flirting is adulterous behavior. I want you to stop bringing my mind to look at my choices. I feel exposed and fearful that others know what I'm doing. I've felt vulnerable to judgment all my life, ESPECIALLY by these very people.

I feel manipulated and pressured by your choices. I want you to not know what I've hidden from you. I don't want you to love or be in pain because of me. My mind goes to how can you gain from knowing my secrets. My perception is that you judge me and assume a lot about me instead of asking to know. I feel threatened and am not attracted to you right now."
intresting...
Until you get your own lines clear to what is the truth, her truth, your truth...you won't be able to perceive her email in this way. You'll hear you're powerful in a terrible, wrong, judged way...and that will be your choice, not her doing to you.

Intresting rewrite...
Ok straight answer, do you concur with my belief WW is having an A with OM3, I do.



PBL's are about YOUR decisions...from reality and about choices.

I do think you may have a theme in your life about blame/power and it may be tied strongly to rejection/acceptance.

Could be...

"I love you with all my heart and my soul, I have from the beginning and I do today. I have no desire for a divorce, my only wish is for us to be happy and in love with each other, I know this is possible if we both tried."

SNIP


You mentioned being more comfortable in the friendship of women...do you have female friends, during your relationship with WW, where you confided and sought to be heard?
I spoke with my friend the bartender a few times always with WW present. I had no Female friends who I maintained close friendship with when married.. mom, sister yes.
"I know this might seem challenging at first,

Ok lossy Plan B letter... I did my best...



I'm still struggling a bit with the timelines...WW was 18 when she married, or began her relationship with her H, married for 18 years? You say she left that marriage and never looked back. She was married to a minister, the father of her six children. How long was her divorce process? When was the final date of her divorce?

WW married in sophomore Year College and stopped school, was married 18 years. The divorce took about 12 months I guess... Her divorce was final in May 2001,

In regards to her children, you said you loved like your own. How often do you see them?
An intermediary could help with scheduling your connect times with them. Do you talk to them by phone/email? How are they doing? You don't list their ages (though you said two were twins). You were in their lives for six years...living with them (some) for nearly three years. That's significant in a child's life.

Now never and I miss them.. 4th grade twon girls, 12 boy, 16 y boy, 18, boy and 24 boy.

I talk with their farther to see how there doing. That is about it and it hurts like ******... I spoke to her oldest son last week...

And could you fill me in on how long your M#2 lasted? I got the dating/proposal timeline of seven months before marriage...I didn't catch the time interval between getting married and shipping out for your six-week cruise. I think it was brave of you to ask W#2 why...and you heard something you didn't know before. WW's make up reasons to have A's...they make their BH's choices as their permission...doesn't mean you have any control...does mean that knowing, as Orchid said, the difference between your W and your WW is essential to saving your marriage.

Proposal to marriage was fast as I was going back to a sea cycle. Married in late Feb, shipped out for 8 weeks in mid March returned in mid May found he doing a guy an “girls night out day we returned .

Just know I am doing the best I know how to do... I have my faults and am working on them...

Don’t know what else to say

sent om3 letter to WW... with no comment...

Very good!

ok confused are you saying you DON'T think they are having an PA?

Or are you saying you agree they are having a PA but just dont care...

JIm

missed this post you are correct he is scum and a dog...

and sometimes.. people's values change. sometimes for the better. sometimes, for the worse.


are you SERIOUSLY worried that your wife is going to run up joint debt?

if not... then just drop it.

if you really are.. then there is legal separation as an option.

http://www.wicourts.gov/services/public/prose.htm