Putting a diffent spin on things [just for fun]...

Killing the OP will do wonders for permanent NC.

Permanent NC is really important to marriage recovery.

At some point people do put personal integrity above the marriage recovery.

For those who don't know, in the "Suzet case", OM continued and continues to be a threat to the M because he knows he can violate NC with impunity (and has done so). Exposing to OMW would be a method to give OM some accountability and try to keep him from violating NC. Suzet also continue(d/s) to work with OM. As long as OM has free reign to do as he pleases, the M will never be "safe". I'm sure Suzet's case is not unique but neither is it the same as LG's. In Suzet's case, there was compelling benefit to notifying OMW that directly impacted marital recovery.

A coworker has a brother who is being divorced by his wife. He is devastated. She is having an affair with a former high school classmate. She has cleaned her BH out. He has no clue that she is having an A and nobody in the family will tell him. He is near suicidal blaming himself for his failure.

MEDC my only point is that the OBS must be told whether by the FWS OR the BS is immaterial to me.

I likewise believe this is a matter of personal integrity but the FWS does not bear this burden alone IMO.

Chill out...something a man would say to a woman for sure, lol!

BK, I had a nice, well worded (imo, lol) reply to this that I thought posted last night. I guess I messed up somewhere and it didn't get submitted. I said something to the effect that I thought more than one person was being rude but the onus was on the original post which started it. I was really active on another forum and an exchange like that would've received a reprimand and been pulled within 15 minutes, so that's what I'm used to. I don't consider disrespectfulness a style, but we can certainly agree to disagree and that's all good too, as long as it's respectful, ha ha. I appreciate your responses to my posts. I need all the help I can get. As I've said before, I do agree in complete disclosure regardless of whether people have moved or divorced, etc., but if a couple has decided to do differently, as long as both of them are okay with it, then I have to respect their decision.

H/O

Regarding this:



So tell him. It's ongoing. Let him know whats up. Get the email address from the co-worker and send it. "As A Friend"

I would be sending Roses to someone if they had done that for my spouse. But I was very good. OW and I stayed very undercover.


Give me reasonable evidence, AND I will actually do the exposure in the future.

And before I get thumped once again, I'm not splitting hairs here. This A as described is ongoing. This BH needs this info and needs it now.

MY A is over. NC is established. Maybe I do have an integrity issue. BTW, doesn't being a WS throw me in that category anyway? But, DW and I are going to deal with this. Thanks for bringing it out MEDC. Your methods are indiscriminate sometimes, but I cannot say that you are not right in pointing out the error of my thinking.

Maybe a good nights sleep is all I needed....

What do you do when the people have moved out of state, you have no idea where they've moved to & the forwarding time for mail is up? No listed #, nothing.

NO.

But YOU may feel that way about yourself for quite some time.

In fact, exposure, even this late, is one of those things you CAN do to assist YOU with not feeling that way about yourself.

Your integrity matters very little to my life. It's your image in the mirror that I'm concerned about FOR YOU. It's my/our gift to YOU and YOUR WIFE.

YOU MATTER.

Welcome back

Mr. Wondering

Email me the names and I see if I can find them for you. The internet is a great resource.

Mr. W

Thanks, Mr. W. An e-mail's coming. I've tried that route for 3 years, but have found nothing.

I disagree.

I may have to accept their decision, but I won't respect it.

I am also a FWS (and a FBS)... and I believe with my entire being that ANYONE who was harmed by the infidelity needs to know the truth.

In a perfect affair-recovery world, I would like to see the WS and BS work on and send the NC letter, and at the same time, go together to meet the BS of the affair partner. In this way, it shows the BS that the WS means business, and also gives the WS an opportunity to see the devistation that they've caused, which in turn *might* help them to MAINTAIN the NC.

Oh I agree! I think it's just a matter of semantics...when I say I respect their decision, I mean that I may disagree with it, I would tell them I disagree with it, but I wouldn't flame them for it, if that makes sense.

Hi <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> NBII

I agree wit'cha

but always safety first ... make sure you are not going to disclose this matter in private with a maniac... be cautious and aware

Pep

Here is my Post to Dr. Harley:

____________________________

Dr. Harley:

First time to post here, but have been on the discussion Boards for a while. I haved reveiwed a number of your threads here and have not found this specific issue addressed. So, please bear with me.

I am the wayward spouse. DDay was 8/4/05. The OW called my BS and told her about our A.

My W had found this Website 2 days before and we were able to glean much information. I ordered HNHN and SAA and even attended with BS the MB Weekend in Philadelphia in Oct 2005.

No Contact with OW has been acheieved, and has been in place since a couple of days after Dday.

The last attempt by OW to contact me was intercepted by my W, (Phone Call on Caller ID, W picked up) and W was very explict to OW what was going to happen next if OW made any more attempts.

However, at that time, or since, we have never contacted OP Spouse to reveal the A. With the knowledge I have now, I believe that revealing to OPS around Dday, or if Contact is continuing, then Exposure to OPS is needed. Because it can be one of the number 1 killers of an A.

My spouse and I have never had a conversation regarding this subject. Early on, yes, we did discuss in passing, and I didn't want her to reveal. Although, we never had a argument or disagreement about it. Meaning, we concentrated on ourselves. And if BS had made it something that she had to do, I think she would have, and I would not have stopped her. And after the above noted telephone conversation, the issue never came up again. BS does have some regrets not having told OPS, just to have created the same pain for OW as she was going thru.

So. I have been challenged by others to "Man-up" and reveal to OPS about what his W was doing to him for 4.5 years. OP have since gotten divorced, and OW has moved out of this state. OP Spouse is still near by. Wife and I will have a conversation about this, and us POJA to decide which way to go. As an aside, many people know of my A. My W did tell a number of friends/her boss/others about it. So, it is not "Still a Secret" for me.

Our recovery is going quite well. And if I was to describe the problems to overcome, this isn't one of them.

My questions to you are:

Should I reveal to OP Spouse from a MB point of View about the nature of the A and it's extent?

What questions should I ask, and what points should I discuss with my BS in regards to this? Pros/Cons?

And if we POJA to notify, what type of communication should it be, and what should it say?

And last:
Dr Harley, from a morality point of view, it is the right thing to do. I understand this. And the overwhelming reason to do so. But, what does it accomplish 18 months later? 36 Months Later? 5 years?

_____________________

And Dr Harley's response:


lousygolfer: I'll answer your questions in the order you asked them:

Should I reveal to OP Spouse from a MB point of View about the nature of the A and it's extent?

The primary reason to reveal the affair to lover's spouse (OPS) is to gain support in breaking up the affair. But when the affair is already over, that reason is lost. A secondary reason is for altruistic reasons -- the OPS should know that the affair took place (you would want to know if the tables were turned). But for the practical reason of helping your marriage, I regard it as optional, and should be done only if you both enthusiastically agree to it.

What questions should I ask, and what points should I discuss with my BS in regards to this? Pros/Cons?

If you both enthusiastically agree that it should be revealed, I would give the OPS any evidence you have (email, voicemail, etc.) to prove that the affair took place. Even when a WS confesses to the OPS, he often doesn't want to believe it. I would also let your wife make the call, and answer whatever questions she has.

And if we POJA to notify, what type of communication should it be, and what should it say?

See above.

And last:
Dr Harley, from a morality point of view, it is the right thing to do. I understand this. And the overwhelming reason to do so. But, what does it accomplish 18 months later? 36 Months Later? 5 years?

It's moral in the sense that you are helping your spouse's lover come to grips with his problem. Hopefully, they will go through the same process you followed, and their marriage will not only be successful, but they will have prevented future affairs. Remember, though; your wife is to have absolutely no contact with her former lover. You should make the call just in case he answers. When his wife is on the line, you can turn the phone over to your wife. It may be a good idea for you to both be on the phone at the same time talking to the OPS.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

______________________________

Comments?

Seems the pretty standard and expected reply.

Yes it's the ethical thing to do...no, at this point exposing isn't about your recovery.

Why is Harley being deferred to on a matter of conscience?

I would agree Noodle. As I have said before... I don't need anyone to tell me what to do... my conscience does that ... again, the Golden Rule.... do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

It is the moral thing to do. It is moral to apologize to someone after you have hurt them.

Some issues transcend marriage. Morality is one of them.

LG... what does your heart tell you to do?

Noodle:

This is where this whole discussion turns isn't it?



As a matter of conscience, you disclose to OP spouse.

As a matter of Marriage Building Principles, It's optional. And this is Dr. Harley's Website, not yours.

You read the questions and the answers.

I will not recommend to any posters that they "do not expose" as it is the "not the right thing to do"

But, it is still up to those partners in that marriage to make the choice.

The thread I posted on originally? That poster said that it helped them move along the path to recovery. That is what we want. It may not get them all the way to the end, but it got them moving. Later, this issue in thier recovery may need to be re-examined, (I am doing so with my BS) (and if contact continues, EXPOSE)

JMVHO

I agree 100%. And "Hi" back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Oh, Noodle,

I totally agree with this question being asked. I have been one to defer to Harley, et.al. and have come to realize that I have ALL the answers to what is ethical if I simply STOP and listen to the my inner voice. Call it Holy Spirit, Conscience, or Penelope (I just made that up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) ... He/It/She KNOWS.

As an aside: What is ethical is rarely comfortable, the easy thing to do, or fun.

Personally I have never said it was a matter of recovery.

I have always maintained it was a matter of character and integrity and as such I personally didn't give a rats patootie what Harley or anyone else had to say about it.

I don't need someone to tell me murder is wrong.

Harley doesn't even say that ADULTERY is *wrong*.

Harley isn't here to be our moral guide.

Nevertheless I believe that failing to expose is a demonstration of extreme selfishness on the part of the person who makes that choice and as such I wouldn't trust them under any circumstances.

If their kid needed a kidney I'd be watching MY kid pretty close.

Again Noodle... very well said. I agree with every word emphatically... and who gives a hoot as to whose web site this is? Does that mean that we can't discuss other issues and relevant topics. Would that mean that anyone over at GloryB couldn't say... "hey, I think what we are advocating here is hurting people... maybe we should re-evaluate our position."
Again, some issues transcend marriage. Morality is one of them!

There is also a member here who has in their signature something to lines lines of "Some people don't get, that they don't get it"

See I was telling you that instead of pontificating in an endless verbose manner you should read....instead of dismissing someone who disagrees with your high standards....and interpretation of how things should go....

I can easily say that I adapted to make things work for me, what is it that you can say about your case.....? Don't think that your sarcastic thank you was well placed or well meaning......you clearly remind me of someone who just likes to hear themselves talk.....so...keep posting away....you aren't bringing much to the table.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />