I am curious about peoples thoughts on a FWS NOT informing their affair partners spouse of the affair. I just find it hard to accept people on this site that are still doing something to harm a BS... even if it is the affair partners spouse.
For me there is no acceptable excuse for a person that has done this great harm to another to not apologize for what they have done and to bring the other BS out of the dark when it comes to their actions.
Further... it really gets me how anyone that is still acting in what I consider to be a deceitful and disrespectful way can be looked to for advice on this site.
Am I missing something here or does morality have no place on this board any longer?

MEDC

I'm not here to talk about LG (even though OPS should always be notified), but what did DF say on his last post that he deleted?

I am not mentioning anyone by name and am not quite sure what you are referring to regarding DF.

I'm missing something, MEDC...

Your title goes to the integrity of the FWS...not the BS? When a couple is committed to recovery, why don't both of them inform OPS? A joint act of honesty?

I don't know what thread your question might have arisen from...so I'm going big picture here. Help me if I missed the target range, 'k?

LA

MEDC:

You are the squirrelly one aren't you.

How tall is that pedestal you are on?

Since I am the little tiny man, it looks really BIG to me.

But since you asked....

This choice has worked for my BS and me in our situation.

I WILL never stop my BS from informing anyone, including OWH, of what I did with OW.

If she wants to talk, she can go right ahead.

I accept anything that may come of this.

I posted something about a week ago on a thread about exposing to OP spouse when the time between DDay and last Contact had been excess of 16-18 months.

I stated that they should not. Time has passed, and NC established. To the BS satisfaction.

Melody Lane, in particular, blasted me on this. Sooo, I went down to the private, DR HARLEY Question and Answer area of this site, (MEDC, you can go there right?, OH, I'm sorry you never paid Dr Harley anything to be here have you?) and looked into WHAT HE THINKS. And Dr. W. Harley DOES advocate notifying the OP Spouse of what a scoundrel the OP really is. He did not, in any of the posts I was able to read, specifically address the time frames involved between exposure, DDay and NC established. If you would like, I will post a question to him regarding time frames. And will refrain from answering that type of question going forward.

So, if you think I do not have "Integrity" and do not belong around here, then thumbtack a thread to the top of every forum and warn everybody about my lack of "Integrity"

But at least then I wouldn't think you were just chickensh!t, and had enough gumption to address it directly.

And how many threads have you been asked to leave? 4, 5? And how often have the Moderators edited and/or DELETED your posts?

Look....I am not sure why you're concerning yourself with others actions. Recovery is quite personal and if people feel as if exposing to the other parties doesn;t benefit them then leave them be....




And this statement really gets me heated up....do not project YOUR morality.....on anyone, it is quite rude....

Many of the concepts of this site are that concepts, not gospel...not directives....not RULES....

if you do not like someone's "morality"....ignore them....don;t listen to what they have to say....but most of all.....oh...never mind...

I will tell you....this is a reason why I remain scarce around here.....some of you all are missing the big picture....in a big way.....

I need to add something...

I really think there are a few, in my humble opinion, that need to READ MORE and POST LESS

"bring the other BS out of the dark..."

Amen, brother! Someone, anyone, let the other BS know what's happened to their life! I don't believe there's a BS on this site who wouldn't have wanted to know what the he!! was happening (and to finally know that they weren't really crazy after all) while their spouse was "schtupping" someone else.

Contrary to some (all too) common societal beliefs...ignorance is NOT bliss and what you don't know CAN hurt you.

LG, your sig line asks..."How do you distract yourself from doing what it takes to be remarkable?

Allow me to answer: by convincing yourself that the "right" thing, really isn't (and then acting accordingly).

I am curious about peoples thoughts on a FWS NOT informing their affair partners spouse of the affair.

I am in favor of letting the wronged spouse in on the BIG secret in his/her M

I just find it hard to accept people on this site that are still doing something to harm a BS... even if it is the affair partners spouse.

I find that when I do not "accept" someone's past behavior my recourse on a message board is (usually) to ignore him/her

or, to keep myself detached from them emotionally


For me there is no acceptable excuse for a person that has done this great harm to another to not apologize for what they have done and to bring the other BS out of the dark when it comes to their actions.

I understand your position


Further... it really gets me how anyone that is still acting in what I consider to be a deceitful and disrespectful way can be looked to for advice on this site.

well, I've decided to trust folks to determine who they trust theirownselves

posters are not idiots (not usually <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )


Am I missing something here or does morality have no place on this board any longer?

[b]I'm certain morality does matter.

When I am in disagreement with you MEDC, I usually leave you alone ... let the one asking for advice decide who they think has the better ideas

Pep

LG...

Does your wife fully understand how much that exposing to OWH would protect your marriage???

Wouldn't she have wanted to be told???

How do YOU feel about the decision not to inform the other victim in this???

I'm not beating up on you, my questions are very sincere, but I will tell you that I don't agree with your decision to keep the other BS in the dark...And I do believe with all of my heart that it WILL affect your recovery with Mrs. LG even though you do not see it...I'm very afraid that this "decision" will not serve anyone well...I see many times in your posts some defensiveness that I as a FWS recognize from some of my earlier posts...It seems that you still identify very much with a WS rather than a FWS-you even refered to yourself the other day as "The resident WS around here"-Not a title that I would compete with you for-Nor do I think that you want that...Perhaps leaving the other victim in the dark is a part of this? A roadblock for you...Would you mind discussing it with me???

Mrs. W

P.S. FWIW, I do believe that you are very sincere in your recovery efforts, btw...Not that you need my approval...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MrsW:

Thanks for your response.

I will try to answer.

Your first question:



I will not presume what her thoughts are completely. But we have discussed it. At Dday. Afterwards, and even recently. She describes regret at not having done it. But, she does know that OW has moved out of state after doing a Plan D. OWH knows who I am. I am certain of it. OW could have told her, but he also could have surmised. Presumption on my part. MY W did not do it. I realize now, but we did not realize at Dday and immediatly afterwards that exposure would have been a good thing.

Next:



In our case, OW told my W about US. My W had suspected for over a year at that point, but this was the true confirmation. But, no, as far as I can remember, BS and I never discussed this particular question. And we have had alot of discussions about the A and other issues. And if the roles were reversed, I believe that she would like to have be told.


Third:



As I said earlier, I think he already knows. And I am comfortable about that decision. And that might anger some BS around here. I apologize for that. But, it seems that my BS and I have made a choice that works for our situation. Is it 100% Harley approved? Probably not. But it worked for us.

Fourth:



Yes, I did. But in this particular case, and even though my sig line notes my status, I wanted to be clear upfront, in that post, where I was coming from. I really have nothing to hide. Including you and a couple of others, there are few of us FWS around here, so I self-identified.

And if I seem a little defensive at times? Well, that just might be the direction I come from sometimes. (IRL, I tend to ask awkward questions alot, and I seem to have a certain defensiveness anyway) I am the Formerly Wayward Spouse. And that title was bestowed on me by my Betrayed Spouse. It was not self-given. And I might not be fully along in this process of full recovery yet. But if there are any issues holding us back, this one, in our particular situation, isn't it.

I should ask her directly.



BTW: How much snow now?

Not disclosing to a BS would lose you any hope of having my respect or friendship under any circumstances other than one in which the ignorant BS is literally at deaths door whether you are a WS...FWS...BS.

Is that a straightforeward enough position MEDC?

Noodle... absolutely yes, that answer is to the point. Thanks for the reply.

LG... as far as you go... I purposely did not address you directly in this thread and will not do so again.
But since you asked how tall that pedestal is... I would say it only appears as a pedestal to you since you are looking from such a low position. You screwed his wife...YOU owe him the apology. If it were my wife and I found out later on and YOU chose not to inform me... trust me... I would come looking for YOU. Hopefully justice knocks on your door one day soon.


Didn't need to... I am very happy with my IC. And funny... but the only reason you paid anything to be here is because you screwed around. Do you think that earns you some special badge? I think not!

And as far as those leaving this topic alone... I would ask some others if you took the same position when Suzet did the same thing. I seem to remember her being blasted here for her actions... and her reasons were a heck of a lot more justifiable than those offered here recently.

Again, I purposely left names out of this to just address the topic. LG...I may address the topic but you will never hear another word from me.

And since you want to run with stuff like this..I did address it right to you in another thread and didn't feel the need to do it again.

But since part of my property is in MD, I feel I must be close to being a neighbor of yours... so feel free to email me and we can meet for coffee to discuss your impression of my cowardice. I am never one to not be willing to address my concerns directly with someone.... be it on a forum or face to face. It's just my way.

LA... I would say that I hold the FWS to a different standard so far as informing the OBS... my reasoning is because the FWS is the one that had sex with their partner. The BS... if they are able, should expose when necessary... but the apology needs to come from the FWS, IMO.

yes, heaven forbid someones actions and integrity are actually questioned.

Thanks for your advice. I will take it into consideration.



I would agree, so hopefully you go back to reading.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

I kinda thought this was an open forum, for all of us who were trying to R from infdelity. I thought all were welcolm. It seems that you, MEDC, are now trying to qualify who has the right to post here or not.

I can tell you that this line of thought will quickly disqualify you as someone who can actually be of any real help!!

You can have all the private thoughts you want in your "pedastalled" position you have put yourself into, but trust me, if that doesn't change, you will not have much effect on newbies who don't yet quite know what you are talking about.

Withold your judgement if you can. This will serve you no good purpose.

LG, I'll play a round with you anytime. But I'm happy to break 100 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

This whole thought has been hashed out in a thread by Lemonman called Karma, just about a year ago. Look it up. Read all 20 pages of that thread. Before it was shut down by Justiss.

All Blessings to all, but this thread is a can of worms.
Jerry

Not at all... anyone has a right to post here... and anyone that posts here can offer their opinion... as I have....
As you can see there are some that accept and support this position and others that feel it is too harsh. You are certainly entitled to your view.... but I stand by what I said because I believe a BS always has a right to be informed.

MEDC

NOT the same situation MEDC, and I am surprised that you can't see it...LG has NOT been here nearly as long as Suzet and has not stumbled in his recovery as she has WITH MB principles under her belt...Give the man time to process and learn...It does take time...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W... I started this thread with NO names on it. While I see the validity of your position, 14 months should be enough time for someone to know that they have wronged someone and should make it right by apologizing and exposing. Just my opinion. We can differ on this... I am okay with that...but I am not okay with keeping quiet about any (not just LG) FWS deciding it is their right to keep this information from a BS. And frankly, one shouldn't need to read Dr. Harley or be here for an extended period of time to get that when they wrong someone they owe them an apology. I think that is just part of being decent. Again, just my opinion that I stated without naming anyone on this thread.

OK,
I understand where you are coming from. Like me, you are a BS, who still has some bitterness and resentment to deal with, right?
All I'm asking is don't project that on a WS who is trying the best he knows how, to R his M.
Don't start Q's about morality, to a WS who is trying to come to grips with the damage they have caused.
Most are fully aware of it. Healing does not take place with accusations and inuendos. That is simply an extension of anger and resentment. That's not going to heal LG's M.
Give him a break on this, could you?????
One day at a time. /that helps.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, I will sincerely consider your words.
I am no longer a betrayed spouse... I am just someone that has NO tolerance... here or elsewhere in life... for any WS or FWS deciding what a BS should know.
I do appreciate your words though and thank you for your sincere input.

MEDC

MEDC as a FWW my opinion is that the spouse or partner of the OP should be told, however its less important to me who informs that person. Its just important that they are informed so they can hopefully recover their M or be able to make decisions for their well being.

Though I did write to the wife of the OP and apologize and received a very generous letter back, I'm not sure I could be as generous, she was aware already and living separate lives back then. She moved the family away and they decided to really try to finally give their M a go last I heard from her.

Did I do any good with my letter? don't know but hope so. I know it was right for me to apologize. I also feel my loving H was happier I had done it.

It is also not important to me if the BS or the FWS tells the OBS... I only believe they need to ALWAYS be told. I would HOPE that a FWS would want to apologize... but this is really a matter of making sure the OBS is given information that he/she is due.

MEDC

Hi MEDC,
Thank you for at least hearing my words. I understand your pos here and I respect it, I really do.
If I had been informed of my FWW's A in the very beginning, I would have exposed immediately to WNH.
I never really had an opurtunity to do that.
I have read many of your posts and responses. You have a good heart. I see it. I'm sure others do as well.
If it makes any differnce, MEDC, please help. Don't inject morale critisims, it will not be very helpful.
You are certainainly entitled to your opinions. But consider, how much real HELP will that be?

ALL BLESINGS,
Jerry

Based on my time here... I would say very helpful to some and not so to others. I have found that of many posters here and while I happen to be very outspoken and others can be more or less so, I know from feedback received that some have greatly appreciated my approach and standing up for what I sincerely believe (even if it is not popular as has often been the case). I have had more than a couple of posters come back to me (even from threads I was asked to leave inititially) and thank me for being so direct. I have always said that the forum is like a choir and we all have our role. I feel I know mine and am comfortable with my approach. I do take words such as yours to heart and incorporte them in my MB experience.
Again, i thank you for the respectful and kind way you have expressed yourself.

MEDC

Well Let me make a few comments here about this topic.

Dr Harley has said that the other BS should always be told and it should be done by the BS I think - however it doesn't mater if it's the BS or WS. He says as I understand it and I heard him say it - on his radio program that it should be a matter of POJA between the BS and the WS. I actually made notes from the radio - I will dig them out and post them but I will say I was shocked her would take that view.

I don't believe that exposure to the OP's Spouse has anything to do with marriage building when the affair is in the distant past. Obviously, with a recent end to an affair exposure is Marriage Building because it helps ensure NC but when NC has been LONG established it is not MB. As Bill Harley says the OP's spouse SHOULD be told but it is a POJA matter as distasteful as I find it.

However, IMO (*MY* Opinion) it is simply a matter of morality and the right thing to do. That other person has probably got a chit marriage without even knowing why. Their life may be in great danger from the risk of STD's whether from that affair or a subsequent one their partner exposes them to. So on this point it is my opinion that Dr Harley is wrong.

I would LOVE to have been told of my wife's betrayal well before I stumbled on it. The people who knew and didn't tell me have been removed from my list of friends and acquaintences. That'
s MY personal boundary. LOL.

I also recently found out a friends wife was having an affair however he had also started seeing an other woman by then and didn't want to rock the boat so I actually tracked down the OM's wife and informed her. She was very grateful.

oh... and someone mentioned Suzet? Repeated breaches of NC mean that she should have told OM'sW at least 3 times already now just to end the affair for good.

Quite apart from the morality of th eissue.

Yes, i mentioned Suzet... and even tough there would be reason to notify based on continued contact... it does not remove the moral issue IMO.

I also would question the Harley recommendation... ML has said on another thread int he past that she heard Harley address this topic also and that he clearly said that the BS should always be told. She was emphatic about that.

I remember saying on that same thread exactly what you have said... if Harley say that it is okay for a BS to not be told due to POJA.. then he is wrong.

BK.. I hope you are well down under.

MEDC

Very well MEDC - I hope you are well too.

MEDC:


This line here says it all:

I remember (BigKahuna or ?) saying on that same thread exactly what you have said... if Harley say that it is okay for a BS to not be told due to POJA.. then he is wrong.

You post on DR HARLEY'S Website how HE is wrong. That just makes me sick. And I lack integrity?

Which is your attitude from beginning to end. You are right. And if someone doesn't agree, then they are wrong, because you ain't changing your position are you? And you post disagreement with the owner on a site paid for by that person.

We can agree to disagree about my stance or manlyhood about telling OW H about my affair. At this point in time, and in my recovery it's between BS and me to make it. And I will discuss it with her.

Sorry your M didn't work out. Most have been all her fault. Sounds like you have a pretty good 14 year old son, however. And good luck with your new daughter.

Because of what I learned from this website and attending the MB weekend, reading the books and listening to the CD's, I think I have a pretty good shot turning out a pretty good son as well.

LG - I know you addressed your comment to MEDC but I am puzzled by this.

I stated what I heard Dr Harley say on the radio as it is by no means clear from his writings on this site.

Dr Harley says the OP's Spouse should always be told but that when the affair is long over it is a matter of POJA between the BS and FWS.

Now I do believe Dr Harley is wrong on that point because to me it is a matter of simple morality. The OP's Spouse deserves the truth. You have had an opportunity to be in a good marriage NOW because you have that truth and on a level of morality, I think it is WRONG for the other BS to be denied that same truth and opportunity as you have now.

But it is clear that this is an issue of MORALITY not an issue of MB when the affair is long dead. If the affair is ongoing then obviously exposure is a MB issue.

This website seems to welcome differing views. Why are you so "sick" about it.

What about the fact that OPS is no longer the Other Person's Spouse? They divorced. Now, according to your rules, that person (who has gone on with their lives) should have this thrust into their face?

Why?

HTpurpose would it serve?

And why further disturb the BS over this? Why stir up the hornet's nest, why create new triggers?

What is the point in informing a XOPS about a LONG AGO affair in a marriage that no longer exists?

A FWS first loyalty is owed to their spouse. If the spouse does not want them to break open this scab, it is their wishes that should be respected.

And LG -- you are invaluable to this site. Please stay.
There are so very few men who have had affairs posting here that can so greatly help the BW's.

medc -- whats your point? Why offend someone who is here trying to help? Is there no tolerance? No respect for what FWS add to this conversation?

Lexxxy...Here's why Mr. W and I believe that a BS, divorced or not, needs to be told the truth about their life... LINK TO OTHER THREAD...

By no means are we "bashing" LG with this, but I think he and Mrs. LG need to think it fully through...

Mrs. W

LG... I started the thread on my own without calling you out... as I had already done on another thread. You want to make this about me and you... frankly many here hold the same position. Seems like you feel that I have no right to express my opinion. You ran your mouth about me earlier in the thread when I hadn't even mentioned you...called me a coward and some other things... which I offered to address with you one on one... and all I am doing is offering an opinion that to me a BS ALWAYS... not when Dr. Harley or anyone else say so...be told.
And you are right... I have the strength of my convictions and am not easy to move on things I feel strongly about... and you certainly have not given any reason why a BS doesn't deserve the truth. You know why... there is no reason except for personal safety (and maybe not if the BS was terminally ill) to keep this from him.
By the way... my son is 11 and YES... it was all her fault. First relationship I can clearly say that with and I had been married very young and had a WS at that time.... and I never have blamed her for everything. And BTW... and affair is ALWAYS the fault of the WS. Always.

So, let me ask you LG... are you afraid of what the OWH would do to you if he found out for sure what you had done? Do you teach your son to say they are sorry when they hurt someone else? Do you feel you are leading by example in that respect?

I have always told you... even when this whole thing started... that you have a lot to offer here. I have a huge problem with your stance on this and will continue to feel that way unless there is something that I am missing that makes yours one of those rare exceptions when the Golden Rule(do unto others....) should not be followed.

Contrary to what you might think... I don't dislike you and would rather see you on this board than not. But I just want you to look at this from the other side.... from the perspective of BS's that have been kept in the dark because of people that choose for THEM what they have a right to know. And while you talk here about my stubborn nature and inflexibility... I see you being the only one that is deciding things for another person. I am merely offering an opinion. I commend you for coming here and trying to turn your life around. I applaud your success to date. I now ask you to consider your other victim in this. I think I remember you saying that the OWW informed your wife of what happened. Do you really think your wife would prefer to have been kept in the dark? If not... why is it okay for the OWH?

Lexxy... did you see me bring LG to this thread? Did I mention him... or did he come here on his own. I even told the first poster here I was not addressing anyone in particular...yet he came and the discussion went from there.

Are you sure they are divorced? My understanding was they were divorcing... but I still see a reason to right this wrong. JMO.
And you asked about tolerance... I will answer your question very clearly... NO. I have NO tolerance for a FWS or a WS deciding what is okay for a BS to be told. I hope that clears up any question about my position.

What does a divorce have to do with not telling OP's Spouse Lexxxy? Do they somehow have less right to information about their own life and why their marriage failed?

Is this a "personal" issue for you?

I am trying to be even handed and fair here.

This was my second post on this thread. My next one said I did not want to mention anyone by name ... I wanted to keep this a general discussion... read the beginning of the thread and see if I brought LG here or if he came in swinging.

Maybe it is a personal issue for me.

Because I identify myself more as a FWS.
But a FWS who was first a BS that was lied to for 18 years.
And never received an apology from the OW. Never received much of an apology from my husband either.

But regardless of any of that -- I think ANYONE who has achieve the "F" in the WS category is someone who should be commended, not bashed.

And I think that people that have walked those steps have so much to add to this conversation. And they should not be chased away....

I totally agree Lexxxy. Never said otherwise. FWS's are golden on these boards. I'm actually married to one.

Guess I don't understand the point in this....

Why?

If you don't want a FWS as your buddy, then fine.
But why chase one away from posting here?
Why offend and confront?
What is the point?

And I think they can be respected and looked to for advice. Advice that only they have the perspective to give....so why chase them off?

I agree Lexxxy. But where did I chase one off?????

signed....

Confused

didn't mean you personally BigK.....just the thread in general...
And the cumulative effect.

Hmm..

So far I'm seeing:

(1) BS who believe that the OPS ahould be informed of the A, period.
(2) FWS who believe that there are circumstances under which it isn't necessary to inform the OPS of the A.

My question: who's more likely to know what's the best approach to take for the BS (because that's what the OPS is): another BS, or a FWS?

Sadly, it seems that WS, former or otherwise, really don't know what a BS goes though. The longer the time between betrayal and discovery, the worse the raw painful emotions that a BS goes through on D-Day.

OK. For the record, let me state I love FWS's who have earnt the "F". I am in awe of many of them on these boards.

Good summary MIM.

I guess a BS has far more empathy for another BS than a WS or a FWS.

I am shocked and dismayed by the tone of this thread. I do not know enough about any of you to have formed any opinions as to whether I agree with your particular viewpoints are not. But to start this thread, worded such as it is, is quite obviously a very thinly veiled attempt to bash someone in particular. I could see that and I don't even know any of the parties involved. This post was meant to agitate and provoke a particular person with the hopes that others would join in and agree with the original poster to prove just how unworthy this person's stance on the issue is.

Regardless of your opinions, I would think, of all people in the world, people here could manage to discuss matters with civility and without resorting to sneaky tactics and name calling.

But I'm not mentioning any names or anything...

where is the moderator?

P.S. I would also think alienating FWS's would not be beneficial to one's goal of trying to repair marriage with a WS. I'm more likely to second guess posting myself.

lol

BTW... this topic has been discussed several times in my two years here... so obviously it is not reserved for any one poster.

For the record, I am a VERY strong believer that a BS should be told.
But I also believe the BS THAT YOU ARE MARRIED TO should have the final say. LG's BS did not require, request, or pursue it. And as a matter of honor, he should honor her wishes first. If the OW and her BS were still married, I might encourage them to pursue disclosure. Since that is not the case, I will respect them for what they have chosen to do.

Where I have a problem with this thread is in the very first post -- where it is suggested that any advice by a FWS should be disregarded. Not only does that offend the target (those FWS that have not apologized to the OPS), it also offends me. I assume my advice is not respected either, because I am sure I have not lived up to the standard of recovery as dictated.

So perhaps the cumulative affect I referred to is that more FWS will leave than just the original target.

How is what I said funny? Because I'm a FWW? You can try and deny your intent, but it's obvious to everyone what it was. You know how I know...? The OM in my story was JUST LIKE THAT...

I'm not saying I agree with not telling. I actually believe that spouses should be told. I dislike your tactics for getting your message across, yet I agree with your viewpoint.

MomtoAandZ,

Chill out. Different posters have different styles. If you dislike someone's posting style, choose to ignore them. There are people here who don't like my style but I think I have posted to you a few times over the last few days.

We all have different styles and methods and they appeal to different posters. It's all good.

If someone is "run off" it's their choice, not someone else's fault.

BK

Can I say one thing and then I'll go away? I was very nearly an XBH. I went through a period before Dday where I got the ILYBANILWY speech and my life began to crumble. I thought I had a great marriage. Let's say that WW decided she wanted a divorce and got one. Let's say I never knew about the A and that I just assumed that she met someone new after leaving me and went off and apparently lived happily ever after. This could have happened VERY EASILY in my sitch. I only found out about the A by freak circumstance (yes there is a God).

My self-esteem took a huge hit. I blamed myself for everything (ww certainly helped me in that regard). If I had been told about the A, it would have helped me to understand that I was not the problem but rather the A. I would like to know the truth about the demise of my marriage. It would help me significantly in my personal healing. So I cannot buy into the argument that, since OP and XOPS are divorced, that it no longer matters.

[Sorry for posting on your thread MEDC.]

Nothing could be further from the truth. It has NOTHING to do with the status as a FWS... it has EVERYTHING to do with the issue being discussed. I have great respect for a great number of FWS on this site. There is nothing in my post that implys anything of this sort... it is reserved for the issue at hand which is notification of the BS.... nothing more and nothing less.

Actually MEDC - I think the title of this thread is very misleading - It equally concerns both the BS and FWS IMO.

Not sure why you are apologizing... but thanks for your thoughts.

I think Pio answered Lexxxy's question very well.

There is a point imo in which it ceases to be a "marriage recovery" issue and becomes a "personal integrity" issue.

Going directly against the wishes of your BS is likely going to be a love buster no? Especially in the wake of an affair?

Nevertheless I can not respect a person who steps over their victim to save themselves from a few more lashes...nor can I respect a person who ought to know better...who ought to remember what it is like to be deceived and volunteers someone to that fate so they don't have to be uncomfortable or inconvenienced.

Harley does not deal with personal integrity. He does not claim to be either a messiah or a guru.

He helps negotiate marriage recovery based on his knowledge of addiction and emotional need satisfaction.

That's about it.

When it crosses the bridge from marital to personal his opinion on the matter ceases to be of any particular relevence.

Totally agree with Noodle. Well said.

Thank you Noodle... that about sums up my feelings.

BK... as far as your question about the BS and FWS... I think my point is... and it has been discussed on Suzets thread... is that it is the FWS that has harmed the OPS and therefore even if their BS does not want to disclose for whatever reason, this is still something that the FWS has done to harm another and needs to make that right. That is why I only mention FWS int he thread title.

Putting a diffent spin on things [just for fun]...

Killing the OP will do wonders for permanent NC.

Permanent NC is really important to marriage recovery.

At some point people do put personal integrity above the marriage recovery.

For those who don't know, in the "Suzet case", OM continued and continues to be a threat to the M because he knows he can violate NC with impunity (and has done so). Exposing to OMW would be a method to give OM some accountability and try to keep him from violating NC. Suzet also continue(d/s) to work with OM. As long as OM has free reign to do as he pleases, the M will never be "safe". I'm sure Suzet's case is not unique but neither is it the same as LG's. In Suzet's case, there was compelling benefit to notifying OMW that directly impacted marital recovery.

A coworker has a brother who is being divorced by his wife. He is devastated. She is having an affair with a former high school classmate. She has cleaned her BH out. He has no clue that she is having an A and nobody in the family will tell him. He is near suicidal blaming himself for his failure.

MEDC my only point is that the OBS must be told whether by the FWS OR the BS is immaterial to me.

I likewise believe this is a matter of personal integrity but the FWS does not bear this burden alone IMO.

Chill out...something a man would say to a woman for sure, lol!

BK, I had a nice, well worded (imo, lol) reply to this that I thought posted last night. I guess I messed up somewhere and it didn't get submitted. I said something to the effect that I thought more than one person was being rude but the onus was on the original post which started it. I was really active on another forum and an exchange like that would've received a reprimand and been pulled within 15 minutes, so that's what I'm used to. I don't consider disrespectfulness a style, but we can certainly agree to disagree and that's all good too, as long as it's respectful, ha ha. I appreciate your responses to my posts. I need all the help I can get. As I've said before, I do agree in complete disclosure regardless of whether people have moved or divorced, etc., but if a couple has decided to do differently, as long as both of them are okay with it, then I have to respect their decision.

H/O

Regarding this:



So tell him. It's ongoing. Let him know whats up. Get the email address from the co-worker and send it. "As A Friend"

I would be sending Roses to someone if they had done that for my spouse. But I was very good. OW and I stayed very undercover.


Give me reasonable evidence, AND I will actually do the exposure in the future.

And before I get thumped once again, I'm not splitting hairs here. This A as described is ongoing. This BH needs this info and needs it now.

MY A is over. NC is established. Maybe I do have an integrity issue. BTW, doesn't being a WS throw me in that category anyway? But, DW and I are going to deal with this. Thanks for bringing it out MEDC. Your methods are indiscriminate sometimes, but I cannot say that you are not right in pointing out the error of my thinking.

Maybe a good nights sleep is all I needed....

What do you do when the people have moved out of state, you have no idea where they've moved to & the forwarding time for mail is up? No listed #, nothing.

NO.

But YOU may feel that way about yourself for quite some time.

In fact, exposure, even this late, is one of those things you CAN do to assist YOU with not feeling that way about yourself.

Your integrity matters very little to my life. It's your image in the mirror that I'm concerned about FOR YOU. It's my/our gift to YOU and YOUR WIFE.

YOU MATTER.

Welcome back

Mr. Wondering

Email me the names and I see if I can find them for you. The internet is a great resource.

Mr. W

Thanks, Mr. W. An e-mail's coming. I've tried that route for 3 years, but have found nothing.

I disagree.

I may have to accept their decision, but I won't respect it.

I am also a FWS (and a FBS)... and I believe with my entire being that ANYONE who was harmed by the infidelity needs to know the truth.

In a perfect affair-recovery world, I would like to see the WS and BS work on and send the NC letter, and at the same time, go together to meet the BS of the affair partner. In this way, it shows the BS that the WS means business, and also gives the WS an opportunity to see the devistation that they've caused, which in turn *might* help them to MAINTAIN the NC.

Oh I agree! I think it's just a matter of semantics...when I say I respect their decision, I mean that I may disagree with it, I would tell them I disagree with it, but I wouldn't flame them for it, if that makes sense.

Hi <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> NBII

I agree wit'cha

but always safety first ... make sure you are not going to disclose this matter in private with a maniac... be cautious and aware

Pep

Here is my Post to Dr. Harley:

____________________________

Dr. Harley:

First time to post here, but have been on the discussion Boards for a while. I haved reveiwed a number of your threads here and have not found this specific issue addressed. So, please bear with me.

I am the wayward spouse. DDay was 8/4/05. The OW called my BS and told her about our A.

My W had found this Website 2 days before and we were able to glean much information. I ordered HNHN and SAA and even attended with BS the MB Weekend in Philadelphia in Oct 2005.

No Contact with OW has been acheieved, and has been in place since a couple of days after Dday.

The last attempt by OW to contact me was intercepted by my W, (Phone Call on Caller ID, W picked up) and W was very explict to OW what was going to happen next if OW made any more attempts.

However, at that time, or since, we have never contacted OP Spouse to reveal the A. With the knowledge I have now, I believe that revealing to OPS around Dday, or if Contact is continuing, then Exposure to OPS is needed. Because it can be one of the number 1 killers of an A.

My spouse and I have never had a conversation regarding this subject. Early on, yes, we did discuss in passing, and I didn't want her to reveal. Although, we never had a argument or disagreement about it. Meaning, we concentrated on ourselves. And if BS had made it something that she had to do, I think she would have, and I would not have stopped her. And after the above noted telephone conversation, the issue never came up again. BS does have some regrets not having told OPS, just to have created the same pain for OW as she was going thru.

So. I have been challenged by others to "Man-up" and reveal to OPS about what his W was doing to him for 4.5 years. OP have since gotten divorced, and OW has moved out of this state. OP Spouse is still near by. Wife and I will have a conversation about this, and us POJA to decide which way to go. As an aside, many people know of my A. My W did tell a number of friends/her boss/others about it. So, it is not "Still a Secret" for me.

Our recovery is going quite well. And if I was to describe the problems to overcome, this isn't one of them.

My questions to you are:

Should I reveal to OP Spouse from a MB point of View about the nature of the A and it's extent?

What questions should I ask, and what points should I discuss with my BS in regards to this? Pros/Cons?

And if we POJA to notify, what type of communication should it be, and what should it say?

And last:
Dr Harley, from a morality point of view, it is the right thing to do. I understand this. And the overwhelming reason to do so. But, what does it accomplish 18 months later? 36 Months Later? 5 years?

_____________________

And Dr Harley's response:


lousygolfer: I'll answer your questions in the order you asked them:

Should I reveal to OP Spouse from a MB point of View about the nature of the A and it's extent?

The primary reason to reveal the affair to lover's spouse (OPS) is to gain support in breaking up the affair. But when the affair is already over, that reason is lost. A secondary reason is for altruistic reasons -- the OPS should know that the affair took place (you would want to know if the tables were turned). But for the practical reason of helping your marriage, I regard it as optional, and should be done only if you both enthusiastically agree to it.

What questions should I ask, and what points should I discuss with my BS in regards to this? Pros/Cons?

If you both enthusiastically agree that it should be revealed, I would give the OPS any evidence you have (email, voicemail, etc.) to prove that the affair took place. Even when a WS confesses to the OPS, he often doesn't want to believe it. I would also let your wife make the call, and answer whatever questions she has.

And if we POJA to notify, what type of communication should it be, and what should it say?

See above.

And last:
Dr Harley, from a morality point of view, it is the right thing to do. I understand this. And the overwhelming reason to do so. But, what does it accomplish 18 months later? 36 Months Later? 5 years?

It's moral in the sense that you are helping your spouse's lover come to grips with his problem. Hopefully, they will go through the same process you followed, and their marriage will not only be successful, but they will have prevented future affairs. Remember, though; your wife is to have absolutely no contact with her former lover. You should make the call just in case he answers. When his wife is on the line, you can turn the phone over to your wife. It may be a good idea for you to both be on the phone at the same time talking to the OPS.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

______________________________

Comments?

Seems the pretty standard and expected reply.

Yes it's the ethical thing to do...no, at this point exposing isn't about your recovery.

Why is Harley being deferred to on a matter of conscience?

I would agree Noodle. As I have said before... I don't need anyone to tell me what to do... my conscience does that ... again, the Golden Rule.... do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

It is the moral thing to do. It is moral to apologize to someone after you have hurt them.

Some issues transcend marriage. Morality is one of them.

LG... what does your heart tell you to do?

Noodle:

This is where this whole discussion turns isn't it?



As a matter of conscience, you disclose to OP spouse.

As a matter of Marriage Building Principles, It's optional. And this is Dr. Harley's Website, not yours.

You read the questions and the answers.

I will not recommend to any posters that they "do not expose" as it is the "not the right thing to do"

But, it is still up to those partners in that marriage to make the choice.

The thread I posted on originally? That poster said that it helped them move along the path to recovery. That is what we want. It may not get them all the way to the end, but it got them moving. Later, this issue in thier recovery may need to be re-examined, (I am doing so with my BS) (and if contact continues, EXPOSE)

JMVHO

I agree 100%. And "Hi" back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Oh, Noodle,

I totally agree with this question being asked. I have been one to defer to Harley, et.al. and have come to realize that I have ALL the answers to what is ethical if I simply STOP and listen to the my inner voice. Call it Holy Spirit, Conscience, or Penelope (I just made that up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) ... He/It/She KNOWS.

As an aside: What is ethical is rarely comfortable, the easy thing to do, or fun.

Personally I have never said it was a matter of recovery.

I have always maintained it was a matter of character and integrity and as such I personally didn't give a rats patootie what Harley or anyone else had to say about it.

I don't need someone to tell me murder is wrong.

Harley doesn't even say that ADULTERY is *wrong*.

Harley isn't here to be our moral guide.

Nevertheless I believe that failing to expose is a demonstration of extreme selfishness on the part of the person who makes that choice and as such I wouldn't trust them under any circumstances.

If their kid needed a kidney I'd be watching MY kid pretty close.

Again Noodle... very well said. I agree with every word emphatically... and who gives a hoot as to whose web site this is? Does that mean that we can't discuss other issues and relevant topics. Would that mean that anyone over at GloryB couldn't say... "hey, I think what we are advocating here is hurting people... maybe we should re-evaluate our position."
Again, some issues transcend marriage. Morality is one of them!

There is also a member here who has in their signature something to lines lines of "Some people don't get, that they don't get it"

See I was telling you that instead of pontificating in an endless verbose manner you should read....instead of dismissing someone who disagrees with your high standards....and interpretation of how things should go....

I can easily say that I adapted to make things work for me, what is it that you can say about your case.....? Don't think that your sarcastic thank you was well placed or well meaning......you clearly remind me of someone who just likes to hear themselves talk.....so...keep posting away....you aren't bringing much to the table.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The day I become concerned with the view of anyone that refuses to take a stand on morality I will give your post some consideration.
Thanks again for your words.

Well Harleys reply to LG is consistent with what I heard him say and reported earlier on this thread.

IMO - as I said before, it's not a Marriage Building issue but a matter of morality and I for one sure would want to know.

This IS Dr Harley's website and I will defer to him on all issues of Marriage Building but I don't need him or anyone to tell me what is moral or not.

So when we tell someone that they should expose to the OBS, shouldn't we tell them that the reasons to do it are to improve their own marriage's chance of recovery by gaining the support and assistance of that OBS? And if that's not going to be an option or wouldn't have that result in their situation (as in where the OBS has divorced the OP), then our reasons for urging them to do are NOT marriagebuilders based, but simply because it's the right and moral thing to do?

morality was the focus of this thread from the start.

I agree - I think Owl. LOL.

Certainly it is not a matter of MB if the affair is indeed over and long dead - it is only a matter of morality.

In a current or just finished affair it obviously is a MB tactic to ensure NC is maintained.

Well, I totally agree with your summary there, BK. The funny thing is, I AGREE with exposing to OBS. I just recognize that there are times when (for whatever reason) the recovering couple can't reach POJA on doing this.

Had there been an OBS in my situation, I certainly would have INSISTED that they be informed.

OK Owl, but to be clear, I don't believe morality and integrity can be or should be POJA'ed. I don't need my wife's or anyone's permission to do the right thing.

exactly

And if that violation resulted in an aborted or destroyed Recovery and Reconciliation of the M, would you then say, Oh well, thats the way it goes or would you stand first for the M and R?????
Just curious.
Hmmmmmm,,,,,, Ibelieve I told you early on, that this was a can of worms. It has panned out to be so, I hope you are proud of what you have accomplished.
On the other hand, I'm sure you are.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry - are you just blowing smoke or do you have a specific case where this happened? Just love the hypotheticals here.

First off Jerry... what you consider a violation, I consider decency. So the premise is shot right there as far as I am concerned.

Next, I am not responsible for the failure of any relationship on these boards. If a BS or a FWS leaves their partner because there was a moral need to disclose the A, then I say there was no recovery in the first place. No one that respects another person is going to leave them for doing the right and moral thing... and if they do, that is on them.
And as far as being "sure I am"...... you don't have a friggin clue as to what you are saying. I guess I could say that I am sure you would be happy for leaving a BS in the dark and hurting someone else. Save that attitude.
And in answer to your question... No...first I stand for what is right and moral. That transcends marriage.

They show the weakness of trying to defend indefensible positions.

What on earth makes you think that the hypotheticals would ever get posted on this forum.
When a BS has to make a choice about whether to stay in their M or move on and D, you are never going to see a person here who has chosen to D and move on, are you?
No, rather you are going to see people here who have chosen to R their M and are looking for the best advise on how to do so.You, yourself, BIGK, are one of those people, are you not????
So why do you ask me about hypotheticals, instead of real people trying to save their M?
This forum is about saving M's as established by the Man I respect the most. Yep, Dr.H himself, who responded to LG just today that his exposure should be a POJA.
Yet you, and others, disagree.

When I first came to this site, exposure was the tool to break up the A. I was told it should be done in concentric circles. That simply meant that only the neccessary exposure should be done for the purpose of breaking u-p the A.
Anything beyond that, was simply a BS exacting vengenc on their WS.

Now, years later, we have a new motive. morality. Wow, how we have progressed, have'nt we?

This site and forum exist for one reason, to save our M. Period!!!!!!!!!

It's not a forum for you or anyone else to impose their self directed morality on to someone who is desperatelytrying to save their M. It's much more about saving their M in the first place.
When you lose sight of that, you are not a help, but much more a hinderance.
I'm glad you and MEDC have such a very high moral view of this world we live in, but ask yourselves, HOW HAVE YOU HELPED LG, who struggles to understand the difference??

God Bless to us all,
Jeerry

Actually Jery I think this discussion HAS helped LG. Time will tell.


I think that is still the standard advice isn't it?

Exposing to OP'sS is not vengeful at all on your BS. How could it be?

And YOU Jerry are the one who started asking hypothetical questions not me.

Jerry,

I have a question...when we practice radical honesty with our partners...we do so to live from honesty and respect...for ourselves, our marriages, our recovery, our lives.

I've found that speaking honestly, even as every one of these posters on this thread is doing, that truth is cannot be manipulated. It is truth. The truth of actions. Imparting this to OBS is an act of honesty. Hence, the morality of the situation. Radical honesty...if the rule is to not be radically honest with anyone but our partners, I believe recovery will fail...there's living in truth and there is withholding it.

Not the "I think that dress sucks" truth...because that's an opinion...not an action. So when we urge people to inform OBS of an affair, we are supporting radical honesty of The Truth...not opinions. How we rebuild trust as FWS...and yes, it's scary, even months or years down the line...and facing that fear and doing so builds our marriage...we build our own commitment to live in truth...

The important part is distinguishing between our truth and the truth, isn't it? And letting the response go...no other agenda...what we live in, live from.

I like hypotheticals at times, because I can't always remember which poster had which situation...and I don't believe honesty ever tanked a marriage or recovery...that a BS would be so against honesty, informing OBS...that it could tank recovery. There is a lot to be gain and healed in clean ownership...I experienced relief and acknowledgment in sharing the truth. I was brave. A lot of others have been. Whether or not they save their marriages...they build their own self-respect and that of their partner...through ownership.

Through dialogue, countless benefit...because they're here, reading, learning and earnest. I don't know anyone who has the power to impose anything on anyone...it's an opinion...shared. Stated. Brave, too. I saw no bash in MEDC's first post...I saw an opinion shared.

Honesty benefits in complicated ways...as do you, and your posts...and everyone's. Our stuff ripples around the world. I respect your opinion, as well. I think you're a marvelous person and an important poster.

One of the things Harley doesn't directly address is that as humans, we have to act to our code (which he describes well in our choices to meet ENs from love, stop love busters from self-respect, and all of it benefits the marriage), not possible response. He doesn't directly say to let go the outcome and choose your results. His plans can be taken as manipulation to get your spouse back, recover your marriage. I don't believe that's his intent. I believe his premise is respect and honesty...the marriage of those two...and not undertaking any of it unless you choose to live respectfully, honestly, and truly desire to save your marriage.

Let go the outcomes...choose your results. When you act from your principle, as I believe you know you do, Jerry...you can't control others' lives...they do. So I don't believe in POJA moral imperatives either. And I don't believe in not doing something, owning something to another, because it won't do any good, or it will shake up their lives...or...anything else. Sharing The Truth is vital to humans...tells us we want and choose to live in truth. Let the outcome go.

LA

P.S. I see I started this with a lie...said I had a question...I don't think I really did. I shared my opinion. LOL. Got me.

But neither of you has answered my original Q.
How have you helped LG in saving his M???

This is all about you two, well my answer is have a nice life!!!!

You've lost your usefulness on this forun, because it's all about you now, and trust me, everyone here sees it.
All Blessings,
Jerry

*******************edit******************

Jerry,

I do think it will help LG if he removes this burden. I said that in my previous post.

In fact Mr and Mrs W started a thread for LG for exactly that reason.

I am more than happy for people to make whatever judgements they like about me on this forum. Even you.

This place is really sliding down hill. When expressed my opinion, I was told twice (even after Sage edited) that I was smoking bad crack. Also was told to shut up and go back greeting people, and that I didn't have good principles.

Now we have the above post.

(((Believer)))

You do know about projection, right?

'Nuff said.

LA

CN... I will respond to this only because you have ticked me off. Yes, it is a MB website...I was married and had a wife that cheated... does that qualify me to be here in your eyes?
Second... ***********edit*********Would it have been more moral to let her abort him as she suggested when I asked her to get married when we found out she was pregnant?
*****************edit******************

MEDC:


Youngster to Shoeless Joe:

"Say it ain't so!"

?????

LG

from my ex's thread...

And MEDC:

I DO NOT APPROVE OF comfortably numb's

Characterzation of it.

Understand?

But you are not married to the mother of your 11 Year Old? Is she living with you still?

I ask, not to be rude, or insensitive. Just to understand more about you.

You can have your beef with me. I'm ok with that.

But you certainly know more about me than I know about you.

Think about as us having a beer after work and just sort of summing up our lives in 30 minutes. I'm the new guy and your the old hand.

Really, thats all.

Edited to add that we cross posted with your Ex's thread post

My history here has been well documented. I have never hidden any part of my not being married to my sons mom... not my choice. I was married and divorced by age 29. Married my high school sweetheart. She had an affair after I got hurt on the police dept.... we are friends to this day and I have dinner at her house with her and her husband. Heck, she has even fixed me up on dates.
I never believed in my younger days that premarital sex was wrong... never had God in my life back then.
So what? How is that relevant?

Smoke screens! **************edit***********

BIGK,
Trust me when I say this, you have nothing but the utmost respect from me in all you pst's and replies.
You say things with an ease that I simply don't posses. It's my nature, and it's also your nature.
Would that i could be more help on this forum, I would cut off my right arm to do so. But it's simply not my nature.
I would respectfuly point out, that no one is here to impose their def of morality, but rather, to help in some inocuous way, to help another lost soul to recapture and save thei M.
Have you even noticed that in all of this hoopla, we've lost LG?????
What good did that do?? I respect the opoinions of you and MEDC very much. But have you heard from LG recently.????

Like I originally said, A CAN OR WORMS!!!

God Bless,
Jerry

hopefully my ex's post sums it up. No, I am not with her any longer. I have sole custody of my boy... she was a danger to his mental well being.

Well, I heard from LG lately and just this morning... even though he feels I am harsh in my approach... he thanked me for bringing this issue to the forefront... a much needed 2 x 4 he called it Jerry. Anything to add to that?

Jerry - LG is far from lost.

ST


LG >>>> Waving

From LG's post yesterday morning to me. Sorry, I thought it was this morning.

ST... I bumped the thread for you.

You sir are an arrogant zealot of your own bull crap that you call morality. I could care less if you ever "consider" my post because I am not stupid enough to believe that my opinions, that my "morality" is "right" ....It's mine..I own it and don't have the need to project it on others...I would hope that you could find another pulpit to preach...but I know better....

Don't thank for me anything...I don't deserve it...

When you pass out from the lack of oxygen way up there on your very high horse I would hope you would wake up...but I doubt you will....

See MEDC...I do not necessarily disagree with your view until it is that someone who disagrees with you is immoral...that's bullcrap...and by taking this stance I do not see how you help ANYONE here....you offer little...than your "morality"....I wish there was a puke face to put here....

What truly saddens me is that I'll never get back my hour I wasted reading your drivel..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Thank you again.

So, if I my view is that pedophilia is wrong and immoral... am I wrong to say anyone that is okay with it is immoral? With your logic, I guess so!?

CN,

Our pasts do not define us...our present choices tell others who we are today.

I was an unwed mother of two, different fathers, before I married; a serial cheater (much like MEDC's ex) while married. Doesn't change my beliefs today...most of which I've learned in the last two years since my DH's A.

No excuses...I did what I did...and now I know why. My gosh, it got me to today...to owning my self...knowing who the heck I am and not trying to live through others...that's radical honesty.

And because I know the sorrow, the destruction I caused repeatedly, of my past actions, remember the fog and the torment of it...I hold a close inspection light on my beliefs...and act from them now, instead of my feelings.

I learned not to tear down a person I don't agree with because of knowing my signals...if something sets me off in what I see another person doing or believing...then I know that's in me somewhere...and is a signal to look inward.

I know if I tear down others, I tear down myself...and that was the way I got wayward...self-shredding. I don't want to go there ever again. I rely on posters like you, CN, and ST and so many others to spot me if I start that journey.

Being honest is accepting honesty...cherishing the discourse, the sharing...if I stifle you, I stifle me. God's design...not mine. Uniform justice...unyielding. Unless you choose not see it and experience the consequences, anyway.

LA

MEDC...you bashed back...that's not honest. Own it. State what you feel, don't demonstrate. In that, there is power. Don't throw your power at people...gets messy. Stay honest and true. If you were honest about not considering what people say who you don't perceive as standing on principle, then that's good to know. No one can control your perception but you...I hope you respect others and their stuff, so you will do so with your own stuff. Judgment kills, inside and out...like battery acid...you can't help but get it on you when you throw it on others.

LA



LG...great wave...pretend I'm a reporter and holding a microphone to your lips...share with us, 'k?

LA

MEDC - CN should take his own advice in his tag line.

I personally feel that people who want to argue about this issue (not morality - exposure) do so because they are defending their own positions and need to justify it for themselves.

LA... thanks for your level headed words. I always respect your words and intent even though we communicate in different ways. I respond to sarcasm with sarcasm. It is a weakness of mine. But one thing I will not do is stand by while anyone uses a word like that to describe my son. Sorry that is where I will draw a line in the sand.
Again, thank you for your words. You are a calming influenece for me. Much appreciated.

BK... I am ticked and I know it is showing... and I know it isn't pretty... but CN should meet me for a beer to discuss this in person. Something tells me though he will hide behind his keyboard. Hmmm... do I sound ticked. Sorry LA... I am really trying to calm down! Really!

twist it up however you feel necessary...you know the answer to that question....

SMOMY - lemme guess here k? Does your wife's OM's Spouse know he had an affair with your wife?

Thanks justuss . . . I guess.

Complete;y uncalled for chariticazions!!!!
Stop this now!!!! All of you!!!!!
MEDC, you have my apology on behalf of all of this furum. I'm sure they will bash me for presuming to speak for them, but all of that was uncalled for.
We all have our cross to bear, but it does not mean it should somehow be thron in our face.
Pleae calm down and take several deep breths.

I wish you All blessings,
Jerry

My email is attached to my sign on.... I would be happy to meet.

MEDC.

Jerry, thank you. I appreciate the post. Seems quite a few here missed LG and I communicating since Sunday. Seems my views rattle some... but funny how others can state them every bit as strongly... but I get targeted. I am big enough to take them all.... until it involves someone calling my child a derogatory name. Then the game changes. But thank you. Your words are appreciated.

*****************edit*************

My email is there. We won't spar.

**************edit***********

And if you have no problem with my child... you should have refrained from using a derogatory name when describing him. And you talk about my posts!

CN... i already cheacked... you have no email attached to your account.

*************EDIT****************

MEDC - he's just trying to goad you into getting this thread locked. Just ignore him.

***************EDIT!!!!!*********************

JustUss2@aol.com

CN and MEDC.
You guys have got to stop this madness.
This place is not whos's [email]ba@@s[/email] are bigger. Will you two stop getting into this pissing matvh?
We all respect the two of you, but this type of behavior is detrimental to both of your crediblity. Do you understand that?

Back off, and do so now. CN, don't take this as a chalenge, and likewise for you.MEDC. Back off, both of you.
You both have invaluable advise to add to this forum. don't discredit yourselves any further, OK?
I once went after my W's Om with a baseball bat and a hunting knife. It's the one thing that God convicts me of everyday. I feel so ashamed that I would stoop to that, but there I was.
Stop now before you destroy ypur own integrity.

Please hear me.

All Blessings.
Jerry

I am not trying to twist at all. I am just trying to make a point.... that we ALL question the morality of things everyday. I have said it time and again on these boards... to me, it is just following the Golden Rule (do unto others...).

So, yes, I know the answer to the question.... but I also think I know the answer to the question about whether I would want someone to let me know that an affair had occured. I wouldn't want to be kept in the dark... so I would NEVER do it to someone else. That's where the morality of it comes into play for me. Now... if there is anyone here... and no one has ever admitted to this... that if there spouse was having an affair that they would choose to not know.... I guess they would look at it differently... but no one here has ever said that in response to these discussions.

LA... I am trying.

I used to fantisise about doing that Jerry.

I'm ashmed to day I did it. But the good Lord had other plans and he was nowhere to be found.
I've learned since, he was in hiding from me.
Sigh......Thank the LORD, He knew what was best for me/

Jerry

Thanks JustUss

MEDC,

If I spoke with someone who believed adultery was okay...I'd know their thoughts were their own...their opinion. Same of pedophilia...and I would suspect neither had any experience in either one and most likely question either person (or the same), if they had any experience in adultery or pedophilia...

However, twisting the Golden Rule does it a disservice...believing others should live as you do...meaning, they should be told because you would want to be told...isn't healthy. It's subjective. It's not a principle...it's a desire.

Taking it to the level where it's universal...and finding where the cleans lines are for all humans...that's what I see you reaching for...get there not under your own perceptions...get there from truth.

The principle you are striving for breaks down (because of your subjective reasoning) when applied to "Henry said you were fat." If you apply your process, then you may not want to be told what Henry thinks, necessarily, would you? Nor would you tell Henry you think he smells funny...because he smells funny to you. Your higher principle at work, which I believe you want to operate from, is that the truth isn't in there...two opinions. Your truth and his truth, separately.

Not because you want or don't want to know.

And to your reactivity with CN...two of my sons are technically ******...rather, they were, until my DH adopted them. I own that...my choice. I brought them into this world. Dealing with our what triggers us is a signal...does not profit us to make others not say it...that's stopping truth. Better still to know and own than to use our time trying to control others, when we know we cannot.

Delve into why this triggers you...deal with our own truths...get to our highest honesty...and be free, MEDC.

You went to a level so far into your inner child that you posted you wanted to do physical harm to another human. Know that. Not right or wrong...to know and be known...for who we really are...so we can grow, learn, share and ripple.

Not attack a human physically when we feel pain emotionally. Then we miss our signals...which is what anger and fear are...which isn't me staying level-headed...staying real. Straight from my heart to others'...going soul to soul.

We all learn from everything...I didn't see a response from CN to me. I feel left out.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know CN isn't one post or three...wish I'd seen them though...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I know that in reconciling, there's more knowledge, growth and reality than in avoiding conflict.

And when we feel attacked here...STATE it. You got what I was saying, MEDC, and you began stating...take it to the next step...get to why you feel what you feel...and then further...all the way back to the belief which gave you the anger, the resentment, and the permission to attack back when you felt attacked.

I love MB.

LA

P.S. Oh, Jerry--think superglue, underwear...when will men learn that knives and bats are passe?

It seems that Justuss doesn't really like what I post . .. and that is o.k.

We all outgrow our crutches . . . I guess it is time for me to fly.

Justuss . . I have no idea why you censored my comments and not those of Mk. . . I guess you liked his better.


Well that is just fine. I guess. This place is no longer of value to me.

Cheers.

LA:


WOW, WOW, WOW.

That is some powerful stuff there.

Ties many of the strings of this thread together.

What created my anger?

Created similar anger in MEDC.

(I was gonna get your back MEDC, someone called my son that, I rumbling too...) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

But LA brought it back.

Great stuff to contemplate... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LG

LA... thnak you and while I do not agree with all you said... I appreciate your heart and the time and caring you have displayed in all of your posts to me. I will think about your words.

Thanks LG.

no one can post threats to another poster

do that enough ~~~> end up in banned camp <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I made my apologies to Justuss..sorry, but I get a bit reactive when something concerns my son. Sorry if I offended you Pep.

just don't go too far .... I don't want to be sending your mail to banned camp

Pep:

Banned Camp! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You didn't see American Pie did you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

ummmmmmmmmmmm

yezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I won't... I will just choose to ignore that kind of stuff in the future. The ignore feature will come in handy!

Thanks for reading, LG...now, step up to the microphone and lemme know what you think, 'k?

Pretty please?

Oh, and did you think Pep wouldn't know that reference? She has a dark side...a marvelously danger one.

ROFL

Now, I on the other hand did not see American Pie (or its sequels)...so I'm clueless. Saintly, even, eh?

Yeahrightsure on the saintly part.

MEDC...once I found out sarcasm was abusive, I really got it in myself and out of myself. When I get really reactive, I slip into it. Same for self-deprecation. If you'd think I'd be lousy at stand up without it, well, you might be right.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Jerry... again I would like to thank you for your calm head and a willingness to read the communications between LG and me. If my words of anger directed towards CN offended you, I apologize for having stirred you up.
Again, thank you for your kind words.

MEDC

Big K- You all do not understand my point....it has to do with someone forcing their morals down soneone else's throat....

For the record...my FWW had an affair with a divorced man...a middle aged predator....

Is expressing your opinion or having personal standards equivilent to forcing morals down peoples throats?

Is there something inherently offensive in saying...fail to meet this standard and fellowship with me is not an option?

You must be this tall to enter a relationship with me?

I absolutely support personal standards over marriage recovery.

My belief is if the price of recovery is my self respect the price is too high.

I apply that belief to all my posts and am happy to consider myself a bigot on the issue.

You, MEDC, and everyone else has the right to their opinion..as do I. But "moralilty" kind of reminds me of religion sometimes.....people miss the big picture...

Let us not forget the immense human rights violations in the name of God or Morality that still happen today. While some of you may agree with the concepts of right or wrong some people bring it to a different level.

You're a self righteous bunch.....and in many cases have the right to be...however...I do not see where this particlar thread is helping anyone with their marriage......and as such I will leave it alone...there really is work to be done..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The big picture being....what?

If I missed something important I'd like to know what it is.

Incidentally MEDC and CN...

Sheesh couple of edits and one board momma bear and the two of you just drop it?

My popcorn wasn't even finished popping yet!

It's all about stamina boys.

And entertainment.

Specifically MY entertainment.

lol! Noodle... your willingness to stand up for what you believe says a lot about you. Thanks.

noodle<----- bigot to the bone

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

noodle,


It depends on how you're expressing your opinion.
I didn't see the stuff on this thread before it was edited but I surmise from the comments that some of it degenereated to name calling. Expressing your opinion about a topic is not shoving morals down people's throat. Calling people names is still not shoving morals down someone's throat, in my opinion, but it is rude and seems to imply there is some other agenda being run other than simply expressing an opinion.

If someone else's opinion is so offensive to you that you feel you have be right, responsibility, or latitude to then call that person bad names then you've crossed the line beyond simply expressing your opinion. If you feel you need to use strong langugae and hateful speech because you've disagreed, then you're no longer attempting to communicate your opinion about a matter and you've segued into some other agenda - perhaps you're trying to punish the person or shame the person into complying with your agenda. Or, perhaps you're just mitigating your own fear of people that don't think like you.


No, though on the recent thread dealing with abortion http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=11&vc=1 MEDC said to me:


I asked him why he felt the need to share that opinion with me because I am curious about what his agenda is for explaining to me that, in his opinion, I am a sad excuse for a human. He never answered. I'm really interested as to what he thought that opinion was going to accomplish. Was he trying to make me mad? upset me? Was he hoping I wanted to be on his "good excuse for a human" list badly enough to change my opinion?

If he wanted to say "I don't want to be your friend." then why not just say that?


Why would you say that to someone on a message board unless that person asks you why you aren't participating? It's one thing to say that to a person you deal with in what we like to call "real life" but a message board is fluid lots of people ignore lots of threads/posts/posters.

Why bother telling people you don't like him/her, she/he is a bad person (or worse), or you don't want to be his/her friend on an anonymous message board? It does come across as agenda-pushing. It does come across as being punitive or manipulative. It does not come across as having a moral disagreement or being respectful and having a different opinion. It doesn't come across as trying to further productive discussion.
Just my $.02,
Mys

I will stand by my comment to you. As I explained before...tell me you don't believe it to be a baby or that the child does not experienece suffering and I will attempt to educate you. Tell me that even if you knew the child would suffer while it was being cut up and I say that is a bad person.

That's just my opinion.



I think your own words about say it all!

Is expressing your opinion or having personal standards equivilent to forcing morals down peoples throats?

no

Is there something inherently offensive in saying...fail to meet this standard and fellowship with me is not an option?

no

You must be this tall to enter a relationship with me?

perfectly fine ... in fact, desirable

I absolutely support personal standards over marriage recovery.

me too

My belief is if the price of recovery is my self respect the price is too high.

"too high" also includes ignoring one's own relationship with God

ie; accepting porn as part of the marriage 'recovery'

I apply that belief to all my posts and am happy to consider myself a bigot on the issue.

[b]I apply my standards strictly to those I allow in my inner sanctum

but there are more distant less intimate relationbships I must overlook flaws in order to get along

ie; my views on abortion or adultery or alcoholism ... I still must treat my patients without imposing my values upon them

I tread here very very carefully
I express the importance of balance in one's life ... including SPIRITUAL balance ... I avoid the word morality or God or any tweak of religion ... or I get my [censored] fired

any suggestions what to do with my high standards in less intimate encounters?

IN THAT case, expressing my personal standard is considered shoving it down someone's throat, because of the authority role I may have with people

Pep

I understand your opinion. What would you like me to do with this information from you?

Mys

How about we just do one another a favor and not post to or respond on one anothers threads in the future. Since this is an open forum, you obviously can do as you please... but you asked for a suggestion, I am offering one.

All right. It would have been clearer and much less rude if you'd have just said that in the first place.

Mys

Thank you. And since you have mentioned rude... I would only ask that you go back and read that thread and see if others considered you rude also. I hadn't replied to you back then since others had done a great job of handling your points.
Now, again, I thank you and would like to get back to my thread and our peaceful coexistance.

I agree that refusal to expose doesn't demonstrate much integrity <to me>. Truthfully, I also think that namecalling and bullying doesn't demonstrate much integrity either. How much integrity does it take to post about how some people are worth listening to or not. There's a difference between questioning someone's morality and maligning them. yikes!

However, all of that is outside of my locus of control anyway on an anonymous board. I can influence....sometimes...maybe...or not. What IS within my control....is to whom I post, why and when I post, how I post....and whether I expand my relationship beyond this board with any posters.

Long term, someone who exposes can turn out to be a very immoral person in many other ways. Long term, someone who doesn't expose can end up being an honorable person in many other ways. I've been fooled on this board before by pretenders. I've also underestimated people. We only get a little information really that's why I consider the stuff we know about people from here....as just a bunch of data points. How moral people REALLY are....will never be proven on this board....because people can say whatever they want, and live completely contrary to the persona they present here.

Exposure is a data point, a single act, one of the things that that will be put onto my scale....along with all kinds of other things, when I weigh and measure the people who I want in my life or who I respect.

We have folks here who have exposed but who don't have much integrity. Gosh....how many times have I seen a BS expose and then start dating the minute the WS walked out. I've seen folks expose during plan A and date during Plan B!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <hiding eyes> How many people know pillars of society who seem so respectable and go home and beat their kids? Or choir directors that are sleeping with the minister?

If exposure is the measuring stick....I'm sure there are many many others to measure integrity. By the time we're all measured....none of us will be tall enough or pure enough to be respectable. That's why grace is such an important concept.

In the end....If I am really worried about what anybody else thinks about my integrity....I'm concentrating on the wrong thing. My journey is not about anybody else. No one else's journey is not about me. We can help eachother. We can share our own experiences and opinions. Or we can beat each other up. But no matter what we do....the only person's integrity we can actually control is our own. I'm confident about my own integrity and my own journey to be authentic. I fail. I make mistakes. I'm not perfect. I'll probably not measure up for some people. But I keep exploring and evolving....I'm happy and the people in my life love and respect me.

What's also within my control is whether I let the opinions of others (or how they "rate" people)....dictate how I feel about individual posters. I don't really care if it's popular or unpopular to like someone or to hold a certain belief. I understand that it's really hard to accept people who don't think the same way as you do. I know it's really impossible to accept people who's morals you believe are corrupted. I'm no different. But I don't start a smear campaign to discredit "certain posters".

I let everyone here decide who they want to post to, like, accept, respect, listen to etc. on their own. The idea that someone may need to warn others about certain posters....assumes that the people here are so weak or unintelligent that they NEED to be warned because they can't decide for themselves.

Quote:

I let everyone here decide who they want to post to, like, accept, respect, listen to etc. on their own. The idea that someone may need to warn others about certain posters....assumes that the people here are so weak or unintelligent that they NEED to be warned because they can't decide for themselves.

Agree.

Just hijacking and turning things on their head for a sec for the fun of it...

Personally I find rude outbursty communication to have less pursuasive ability than communication that is designed to not tread on my toes and keep me "open".

I tend to listen to the courtiers with a more watchfull eye than the person standing in a room yelling "HERE'S WHAT I THINK!".

Of course this is all reliant on my biased belief that everyone has an agenda.

I don't even mind a person yelling "HERE"S WHAT I THINK (or what I FEEL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) I just have a problem w/ people yelling that everybody should feel what they think.

you made an interesting comment noodle...that everybody has an agenda to some degree......even if it's furthering productive discussion.....i hadn't thought of that as an agenda, but I suppose it is.
why is it that words like agenda and liberal have such negative connotations lately?

oops, sorry about continued TJ...i just caught up w/ this thread today.

LOL...well of course if you agree with them it isn't doing anyhting of the sort..it's just right..savvy?

[yes I recently watched POTC]

Well, Mys is willing to stand up for what she believes.
how is she different...to you?

Agree that Mys is 100% consistent [or closer to it than me for sure].

Myschae 99 and 84/100 % pure.

[can anyone guess the reference?]

MEDC,

Do you know the line between disrespect and abuse?

"I will stand by my comment to you." The one you made where you judged another myschae as "a sad excuse for a human."

When you define others, you are being abusive. Doesn't own a thing...God's design was that we cannot judge others' essence...only their actions. You know that. When you do it...when you tell someone else who they are, or are not, you are abusive.

I believe God shudders. I believe you don't want that.

Abuse has no excuse...get to your permissions inside and find that false payoff.

And I believe such defining cuts off what you're really trying to communicate...you may feel appalled, at a loss, perceive you are isolated, threatened, scared...lots of stuff...and that doesn't get acknowledged, owned or even understood inside you for taking the shortcut to judgment.

If you hold yourself to the standard of not abusing others...then you cannot enforce boundaries when others cross that line...God's two-way street. Won't yield, twist or change.

To me, I see you as reacting to a lot of abuse-like issues...withholding truth, abusing limits, attacking integrity...could this be a signal of the permissions you have in yourself, when you perceive they reach a high enough level, that you allow yourself to do that which you most abhor?

I was like that before...and my levels weren't at all high...imbalance can physically, mentally and emotionally hurt...real pain...generating extreme anger...from our own imbalance.

When you respect others' opinions, then you respect your own...when you don't, you really don't. Every human on the planet was made from God's hands, complete and whole...you know that. All of them. Their opinions hold no more power than your own...you are as limited as they are, by God's design...and you are equal...and so are they. Know when you abuse so you can choose differently.

Please. You are intolerant of abuse...stop doing it. Only you define you...and no one else.

LA

I also think MEDC is very consistent but differently.

He is very *issue* invested.

I predict with a fair degree of certainty that if we strongly disagreed tomorrow he would tell me to go to h*ll without hesitation.

LA... we are different. Of that I will not lie. You have your way of looking at things... and I have mine. I respect your view and opinion. But I will tell you... IMHO, if the world did not have people like me that were willing to look at another and say... "NO, you are dead wrong about this... or that accepting pedophiles makes you a bad person". then we would live in a society where every conceivable horror is just accepted as someones expression of who they are. Sorry... but I have lived in the real world and have seen the horrors inflicted on children, women and those unable to fight for themselves. I use my voice... you may perceive it as coming from a place of weakness and I think you are wrong... to help bring to light that which I believe to be horrible and unjust. Others who have professed to be people of conscience have sat by and watched these horrors and have done nothing. Sorry, that is not me and will never be me. I ppreciate you pointing out your way... but it is not and never will be my way. What you perceive to be weakness, I consider a strength...and honestly LA I used to be like you but feel the world needs people that will stand and be counted. That is my role and if it means I will call evil by its name... I will do so. So yes, I react to abuse type situations and feel driven to do so.
I will tell you that this is an issue I have discussed in IC and even with a priest back when I was still a cop (and a catholic). Both of their opinions and those around me support my beliefs and willingness to judge or define behaviors as I see them. I am comfortable with that aspect of my life and know that you see things differently. I am okay with who I am.... and the running joke among my friends is that when I die my tombstone will read... "do the right thing."
Again, thank you for your words...they are appreciated.

I believe most people are pretty fluid.. and can grow and change.. Unchanging equals stagnant. I try to grow. I have done things I'm ashamed of. Like namecalling in anger, and other angry outburst behaviors. Others might define me by those behaviors I have tried painstakingly to shed.

In our situation we did reveal to the MOWs husband. My husband had recommitted to the marriage. The MOWs husband reacted violently. Still my husband apologized to him and answered him with impressive radical honesty.


What I stated on a similar discussion is that I don't want anyone telling me of anything else in the past.

IF my husband did do anything else, it escaped my radar, i.e. my husband continued treating me with loving care, unlike what happened in the affair he confessed to me two years ago. He has said there's nothing else to tell, and I believe him, but if there was something else long ago, since he does in fact have a notoriously bad memory, neither of us are the same people we were long ago.

I don't care about anything if there is anything, and I prefer to let it go anyway. So the only motivation someone would have to give me that information (which I would be very skeptical of) is as an attempt to harm my new marriage. We have both grown and changed.

I have grown and changed too. I owe Noodle an apology.

Noodle I'm so sorry I said hurtful things to you in the past, (even though you're a big girl and I somehow think it was water off your back) I still want to apologize to you for my own sake.

I have learned a lot more than than just Marriage Building from my time here. (Thank you LA.)

MEDC - You know we are usually on different sides of things, but I always respect your opinion.

There have been a lot of studies that look at what happens when a group of people are faced with an emergency or tragedy - like the Kitty genovese incident in New York, where a woman was stabbed to death on the street, while neighbors watched. Experts found that when people are in a group, they tend to leave it to someone else to do something.

There have been numerous other instances, people dying at hazings from alcohol OD, where no one called for help even when the victim was having convulsions.

I appreciate folks like you, because I think that you are a person who WOULD do something.

Very ISSUE invested! Wonderful way to put it!

And while I have disagreed with many here... Believer comes to mind as to someone I have not always seen eye to eye with...I will say my peace and for the most part will be fine with you as a person. I don't mind disagreeing.... what I do mind is ANYONE that sits back and either is an advocate for or is accepting of abuse in any form. I stand for the things I believe in....always will.... even if I ruffle a few feathers. It's just me... always will be!

Example... I was out on a date years ago... outdoor restaurant, nice night. I am sitting there and as any cop will tell you, I see everything... well a man walks by a table (he's not a customer) and grabs the tip money left for the waitress. Others saw him and said NOTHING. I jumped up from my seat and chased him down the block... dragged him back to the restaurant.. made HIM put the tip money back on the table. Grabbed a local squad car and had him locked up for DC. Now... I sit back down... my date is frantic... people start clapping...but did one person follow me to see if I was okay or to help... NO.... okay, that was their choice. But without someone willing to stand up and be counted that waitress losses her money. It's just the way I am... no apologies. I look at every abuse the same way.
Funny thing is... that same man...if he had said to me that he was just hungry...and not just a theif... I would have still made him put the money back... but I would have bought him soemthing to eat.

funny B... but I was posting as you wrote your story... thank you!

LOL - great minds think alike - we posted at the same time.

B... I have to tell you that aside from being called a good dad... the way that you view me (a willingness to get involved) is perhaps the best compliment I could receive.... I'm most definitely not a sideline sitter. Thank you again.

Ivory soap

That was my guess but the Ivory history site said 44/100 when I looked it up...?

Didn't a famous porn star get her start as an Ivory girl? Can't think of her name.

Ivory is 44/100... so there must be some other obscure reference

i was thinking ivory soap too...but when i googled it it came out 99.44% pure.....what is it, noodle?

Noodle is bad at math

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Marilyn Chambers... Ivory put in morality clauses after that!!!

cool story medc....I can SO see you doing that too! I haven't chased down any theives LOL....but I've definitely gotten involved....and it's been pretty scary sometimes because I'm not that big.

Thanks... I think getting involved can take on many forms... even in my story... if people had just said something I would have considered that getting involved. Not everyone is trained (and btw... if you are ever interested there are things you can do to make your size almost a non issue... Krav Maga is a wonderful dicipline and for the lay person... (as well as the professional albeit on a different level) can be learned very quickly to make most threats very managable) but we all have a voice. I would not advocate everyone jumping in physically... and it seems you are aware of that. But being involved is important. Thanks again for your kind words.

Krav Maga huh? Sounds interesting!! In my case....I think a few times my size actually encouraged other people to get involved. I looked so stupid....they figured they were probably going to have rescue me too. People must think you don't look like you need any help! haha

I remember a time in a grocery store...there was a woman shopping with a baby in the basket. The baby looked to be about 12 to 18 months....little. And the woman was very large and powerfully built. From time to time the baby would reach out for something in the cart or on the shelf and this woman would smack her in the face and head and yank away her little arm away or wrench something from her hand. I know a whole lot of people were just squirming and even looking around at each other. I wasn't the only one who was looking on horrified as she hit this baby really hard accross the ear. When the baby let out a howl....she raised her hand to hit her again....and I grabbed her hand in the air and said "Lady, if you want to hit that baby again, you're going to have to hit me first." She looked at me like she had no problem with that and like she could eat my lunch....but the butcher jumped right over the counter and said "and you're gonna have to hit me too". Then a couple of other patrons decided to stand in close and glare. She tried to leave, but the manager ended up locking the store until the authorities came.

noodle is *so* bad at math.

Yes it was ivory.

Don't you think it's more fun to try and figure things out with all the wrong information?

Me 'neither.

Thus exposure [and with a sweeping bow she hauls out the big shovel and brings her screw up right on topic with a pointed illustration Ta Da!]

krav maga

You did a very wonderful thing for that child. Bravo!

gosh, quoted in pep's sig.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

LOL Noodle. Bravo.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Didn't a famous porn star get her start as an Ivory girl? Can't think of her name.

The only star that I know as an Ivory baby is Brooke Shields.

committed

That was the coppertone girl.

I forget her name.

-ol' 2long

Nope, that was Jodie Foster. She was the coppertone baby.

committed

I was the coppertone baby

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

hmmmm...that means you have showed your azz. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


committed

But, wouldn't that have been me "showing it" to start all this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

many times
no one wants to look at my [censored] anymore

Pep:

LOL!

Nope, Jodie Foster was in a Crest commercial.

It was Marilyn Chambers in the Coppertone ad.

At least, that's what I was told! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Marilyn Chambers was the mom in the Ivory ad... as I mentioned earlier, Ivory then started including morality clauses in all their contracts!

Joyce Brand was the Coppertone baby.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Well, this is one of those areas of trivia where I don't feel so bad that I don't know all the facts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

My Bad...I should have said "commercial" instead of "ad". Jodie Foster was in the coppertone commercial when she was a toddler. Brooke Shields was in the ivory soap commercial when she was a baby. I think it was her first "gig". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Gawd...hollywoodese.

committed

Well I can see I'm going to have to watch a heck of a lot more TV if I am going to hang out with this crowd.



Heck, who'd have even known there was a difference! Not me. LOL

Is this the California crowd?