The day I become concerned with the view of anyone that refuses to take a stand on morality I will give your post some consideration.
Thanks again for your words.

Well Harleys reply to LG is consistent with what I heard him say and reported earlier on this thread.

IMO - as I said before, it's not a Marriage Building issue but a matter of morality and I for one sure would want to know.

This IS Dr Harley's website and I will defer to him on all issues of Marriage Building but I don't need him or anyone to tell me what is moral or not.

So when we tell someone that they should expose to the OBS, shouldn't we tell them that the reasons to do it are to improve their own marriage's chance of recovery by gaining the support and assistance of that OBS? And if that's not going to be an option or wouldn't have that result in their situation (as in where the OBS has divorced the OP), then our reasons for urging them to do are NOT marriagebuilders based, but simply because it's the right and moral thing to do?

morality was the focus of this thread from the start.

I agree - I think Owl. LOL.

Certainly it is not a matter of MB if the affair is indeed over and long dead - it is only a matter of morality.

In a current or just finished affair it obviously is a MB tactic to ensure NC is maintained.

Well, I totally agree with your summary there, BK. The funny thing is, I AGREE with exposing to OBS. I just recognize that there are times when (for whatever reason) the recovering couple can't reach POJA on doing this.

Had there been an OBS in my situation, I certainly would have INSISTED that they be informed.

OK Owl, but to be clear, I don't believe morality and integrity can be or should be POJA'ed. I don't need my wife's or anyone's permission to do the right thing.

exactly

And if that violation resulted in an aborted or destroyed Recovery and Reconciliation of the M, would you then say, Oh well, thats the way it goes or would you stand first for the M and R?????
Just curious.
Hmmmmmm,,,,,, Ibelieve I told you early on, that this was a can of worms. It has panned out to be so, I hope you are proud of what you have accomplished.
On the other hand, I'm sure you are.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry - are you just blowing smoke or do you have a specific case where this happened? Just love the hypotheticals here.

First off Jerry... what you consider a violation, I consider decency. So the premise is shot right there as far as I am concerned.

Next, I am not responsible for the failure of any relationship on these boards. If a BS or a FWS leaves their partner because there was a moral need to disclose the A, then I say there was no recovery in the first place. No one that respects another person is going to leave them for doing the right and moral thing... and if they do, that is on them.
And as far as being "sure I am"...... you don't have a friggin clue as to what you are saying. I guess I could say that I am sure you would be happy for leaving a BS in the dark and hurting someone else. Save that attitude.
And in answer to your question... No...first I stand for what is right and moral. That transcends marriage.

They show the weakness of trying to defend indefensible positions.

What on earth makes you think that the hypotheticals would ever get posted on this forum.
When a BS has to make a choice about whether to stay in their M or move on and D, you are never going to see a person here who has chosen to D and move on, are you?
No, rather you are going to see people here who have chosen to R their M and are looking for the best advise on how to do so.You, yourself, BIGK, are one of those people, are you not????
So why do you ask me about hypotheticals, instead of real people trying to save their M?
This forum is about saving M's as established by the Man I respect the most. Yep, Dr.H himself, who responded to LG just today that his exposure should be a POJA.
Yet you, and others, disagree.

When I first came to this site, exposure was the tool to break up the A. I was told it should be done in concentric circles. That simply meant that only the neccessary exposure should be done for the purpose of breaking u-p the A.
Anything beyond that, was simply a BS exacting vengenc on their WS.

Now, years later, we have a new motive. morality. Wow, how we have progressed, have'nt we?

This site and forum exist for one reason, to save our M. Period!!!!!!!!!

It's not a forum for you or anyone else to impose their self directed morality on to someone who is desperatelytrying to save their M. It's much more about saving their M in the first place.
When you lose sight of that, you are not a help, but much more a hinderance.
I'm glad you and MEDC have such a very high moral view of this world we live in, but ask yourselves, HOW HAVE YOU HELPED LG, who struggles to understand the difference??

God Bless to us all,
Jeerry

Actually Jery I think this discussion HAS helped LG. Time will tell.


I think that is still the standard advice isn't it?

Exposing to OP'sS is not vengeful at all on your BS. How could it be?

And YOU Jerry are the one who started asking hypothetical questions not me.

Jerry,

I have a question...when we practice radical honesty with our partners...we do so to live from honesty and respect...for ourselves, our marriages, our recovery, our lives.

I've found that speaking honestly, even as every one of these posters on this thread is doing, that truth is cannot be manipulated. It is truth. The truth of actions. Imparting this to OBS is an act of honesty. Hence, the morality of the situation. Radical honesty...if the rule is to not be radically honest with anyone but our partners, I believe recovery will fail...there's living in truth and there is withholding it.

Not the "I think that dress sucks" truth...because that's an opinion...not an action. So when we urge people to inform OBS of an affair, we are supporting radical honesty of The Truth...not opinions. How we rebuild trust as FWS...and yes, it's scary, even months or years down the line...and facing that fear and doing so builds our marriage...we build our own commitment to live in truth...

The important part is distinguishing between our truth and the truth, isn't it? And letting the response go...no other agenda...what we live in, live from.

I like hypotheticals at times, because I can't always remember which poster had which situation...and I don't believe honesty ever tanked a marriage or recovery...that a BS would be so against honesty, informing OBS...that it could tank recovery. There is a lot to be gain and healed in clean ownership...I experienced relief and acknowledgment in sharing the truth. I was brave. A lot of others have been. Whether or not they save their marriages...they build their own self-respect and that of their partner...through ownership.

Through dialogue, countless benefit...because they're here, reading, learning and earnest. I don't know anyone who has the power to impose anything on anyone...it's an opinion...shared. Stated. Brave, too. I saw no bash in MEDC's first post...I saw an opinion shared.

Honesty benefits in complicated ways...as do you, and your posts...and everyone's. Our stuff ripples around the world. I respect your opinion, as well. I think you're a marvelous person and an important poster.

One of the things Harley doesn't directly address is that as humans, we have to act to our code (which he describes well in our choices to meet ENs from love, stop love busters from self-respect, and all of it benefits the marriage), not possible response. He doesn't directly say to let go the outcome and choose your results. His plans can be taken as manipulation to get your spouse back, recover your marriage. I don't believe that's his intent. I believe his premise is respect and honesty...the marriage of those two...and not undertaking any of it unless you choose to live respectfully, honestly, and truly desire to save your marriage.

Let go the outcomes...choose your results. When you act from your principle, as I believe you know you do, Jerry...you can't control others' lives...they do. So I don't believe in POJA moral imperatives either. And I don't believe in not doing something, owning something to another, because it won't do any good, or it will shake up their lives...or...anything else. Sharing The Truth is vital to humans...tells us we want and choose to live in truth. Let the outcome go.

LA

P.S. I see I started this with a lie...said I had a question...I don't think I really did. I shared my opinion. LOL. Got me.

But neither of you has answered my original Q.
How have you helped LG in saving his M???

This is all about you two, well my answer is have a nice life!!!!

You've lost your usefulness on this forun, because it's all about you now, and trust me, everyone here sees it.
All Blessings,
Jerry

*******************edit******************

Jerry,

I do think it will help LG if he removes this burden. I said that in my previous post.

In fact Mr and Mrs W started a thread for LG for exactly that reason.

I am more than happy for people to make whatever judgements they like about me on this forum. Even you.

This place is really sliding down hill. When expressed my opinion, I was told twice (even after Sage edited) that I was smoking bad crack. Also was told to shut up and go back greeting people, and that I didn't have good principles.

Now we have the above post.

(((Believer)))

You do know about projection, right?

'Nuff said.

LA