Mr. & Mrs. LG...

For the purpose of reframing things, I thought I would bring this to a new thread...I've included both of our posts here just so we have the whole discussion in one place, fair enough? (My new stuff is in bold)












Mrs. W

I don't want to get all involved in the debate here, but just for clarification...

So can you straighten out the facts of the matter please...
1. FOW is D.
2. FOW no longer lives in Maryland.
3. FOW's XH still lives around....?
4. FOW's XH ALREADY KNOWS about the A AND that LG was the FOM
5. The D was post-A? pre- or post-d-day? (this may be irrelevant, but I'm curious)

I'm not familiar with all the 12-step stuff, which I could look up, but bear with me. Is the issue that LG has not "confessed" to the XH and asked for forgiveness?

Because that would be one thing, and you can all debate that issue on its own merits.

HOWEVER, if it's just a matter of letting the XH know...sounds like he already DOES know...and they are D'd anyway. And to raise the issue with the XH at this point might just re-open an old wound for him...

I don't know...I'm just trying to piece the story together.

Thanks...

BTW: The lights are stayin' on, girlfriend! I'm a lifer. (along with a couple others on this board...)

And now for your local weather: Current temp: 5 above. Current wind chill: 15 below. 14 inches on the ground; blowing hard. It's all lake effect, so it's unpredictable as to exactly where the heavy bands will set up, but they say another 4 inches tomorrow. (awww...I named our boat Lake Affect...nice play on words, don't ya think?)

Mr. & Mrs. Lousygolfer,

Recovery and MB recovery

is sort of like any 12 step recovery program

In AA, they have Step 9 - make amends.

those that fail to "make amends" remain stuck at step 9 indefinitely

I am aware that AA does include the caveat in Step 9 of "make amends but do not harm" which has been used many times herein as a defense...to me, it fails to stand up as a viable defense. To me...the "harm" has already been done. Bestowing the truth and apologizing to your victim is not, in any way, "harm". Besides, you think the BH already knows. If he does, no "harm" AND you get to apologize. If not, you get to bestow upon him the truth of his life and perhaps explain many of the questions that remain for him regarding his divorce. There is nothing more pathetic than a divorced man that says "I'm divorced, I think my wife may have cheated on me but I don't know for certain". It's too late for him to go back and get the truth. YOU (and your wife) may be the only way this man can move forward in an honest individual recovery.

Back to my "stuck in step 9" theory. You and your wife have made significant strides in recovery. You've felt and seen the train rolling and don't want to divert time and attention to a seeming irrelevant issue. I understand that and will respect that for awhile. However, this remains an important step to becoming an honest man and an honest couple. There MUST be an important reason for making amends in AA that apply equally well $in marital recovery. I don't know what the AA theories are but my theory in marital recovery is you'll both be able to escape the hidden and/or ignored burden of maintaining this secret. The secrecy will continue to effect you both. Mrs. LG may, on one hand, want OW completely irrelevant but secretly wonder if you (and her) protecting her was wise. Mrs. LG may, at times, regret not telling and making OW incur the consequences of her behavior and then get upset because she's again thinking of OW instead of keeping her "irrelevant". She may also wonder in you are protecting her. You will find yourself sympathizing and relating to other WS's on the board as you will still have personally insecurities because you remain at step 9 and remain ...not yet...fully healthy. You'll both be stuck.

I personally am giving you a break for a time as I see you progressing. You've got a lot of MB under your belt but you've only been posting for a little while here. I think Dr. Harley will merely say "I recommend you disclose", but he will stop short of requiring it. He may place the onus of disclosure on Mrs. LG because YOU are in NO CONTACT. However, because BH is divorced...you COULD call him, in your wife's presence and tell him together without ANY risk of contact. Anyway, even though it's likely just a highly recommended suggestion and NOT a requirement, my friendship and respect will be contingent upon your actions (and I not presuming you care...only hoping).

BTW, one fear Mrs. LG may feel in discussing this notion of disclosure and "making amends" is your motivations. The discussion alone makes OW relevant when ever fiber of her being wants NOTHING to do with her (or her BH). She may fear you want to again stir OW's pot. However, as I stated above OW and BH will FOREVER remain relevant should you fail to disclose.

It takes courage to do the right thing Mr and Mrs. LG.

GET'ER DONE or as Ben Stiller said in Starsky and Hutch "DEWWWWW IT"

Mr. Wondering

Lil Sis and you on the other thread discussing this issue has brought another consideration to our minds.

Mrs. W and I just discussed this.

The fact that BH and OW are now divorced is irrelevant.

As I said above, his individual divorce recovery is progressing. But if he doesn't know WHY his marriage failed he is likely doing way too much personal inventory. He is likely internalizing way to much blame for the downfall of his marriage. Without "understanding" his wife adulterous behavior with you, he's likely confused and perhaps quite broken.

Broken men. Confused men. Insecure Men.

Make wonderful OM's.

When their taker kicks up and they feel entitled to seek out and undertake ANY relationship that presents itself which, as unhealthy men, and presumably unavailable emotionally for a truly healthy relationship, I submit, will very likely end up being an inappropriate adulterous relationship of their own.

History repeats itself...especially, unknown history that the BH doesn't get the opportunity to learn from.

How can I be sure of this????

Because the OM in our situation was just such unhealthy divorced man. He considered and suspected his wife had cheated on him and had an affair. In fact, she moved in with her "friend" almost immediately upon the completion of the unsuspected divorce proceedings. Being MB educated it is obvious to both Mrs. W and I that he was, in fact, a BH but he never knew FOR SURE. Thus, his divorce shattered him. The loss of custody of his daughter without explanation put him in a tailspin of despair. 6 months later he calls my wife (his old high school girlfriend) to "touch base". The affair ensues.

I propose IF OM KNEW the truth about his wife's affair and known he was a BS the counseling he did undertake would have been much more fruitfull. Perhaps, he would have NEVER become an OM himself. Perhaps my wife's affair would have NEVER happened.

JUST MAYBE there are other peoples lives involved. Continued deceipt IS the devils playground for ALL involved, even potentially people forever unknown to you and your wife.

Mr. Wondering

I only can speak of my personal experience

my firm set in cement boundary was

my husband tell OW's husband himself
or I was done with him

and by making ~that~ step of humble contrition

my husband began his climb out of the muck

I REQUIRE a husband with that level of courage to face the other person he tried to ruin

but ... on a message board .... I find I am mostly required to get along

but my admiration goes out to any wayward who confesses with humility to ALL those he/she wronged ...

my husband apologized to my parents
... which was probably harder than facing OW's H

it's what a real man does
in my opinion

when you have lost your way
check your moral compass

after an indescretion of massive proportions set the bar HIGHER ... not lower

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Mr. and Mrs. W: Thank you for clarifying this for me. I now bow out...

Well said, and I can confirm this with my own empirical evidence. That was the mindset that I was in when I was an OM many years ago. I was as entitled and fogged out as they come.

Since disclosure is the topic of the thread...I did tell the BH. Turns out I was his WW's third A. I moved and established NC for my own sanity. That was 14 years ago. I'm not sure whatever happened to them but I *think* they divorced 2 or 3 years ago.

All that happened years before I even met my W, but I told her the whole story before we got married. My mindset was that if she was going to break up with me, it wouldn't be because I lied to her about something. Been married almost 10 years now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bump for LG...

LG...No intent to "run you off"...Just wanted to offer you some things to think about and discuss with your wife...I hope you understand where I'm coming from...

Mrs. W

Mrs W & Mr. W:

Thanks for trying to help out. I tried to do some of that around here. And you two are some of the best. And nothing here is directed at you personally. After I started writing this, and I got to the end, I just came back to the top to point that out. We never really ever posted to one another, and I really appreciate your attempt. I have thought about it all night and today and went many different ways with my answer.

Go Tigers. Detroit Tigers!


Will my revealing to OWH make some amends? Probably.

Be the right thing to do? Certainly.

Will the OW H be crushed and cruising for other woman, married or not? Interesting speculation, that's all.

All the points you make, in context, make sense. And I would never disagree with you proposing that for others.

But in our situation now, and where we stand, it's water under the bridge.

My BS really wanted to go up to the OW 18 Year Old son and tell him is explicit detail how his mother was rutting on my office floor. She even told OW that on the phone about 10 days after Dday when OW attempted to contact me, and BS got to answer the phone. That stopped all contact from OW.

There is a reason why there are so few Waywards that post around here. Because if you come by early, you get bashed because you may be in the FOG/Lost/stupid/Whatever. And if you come by later, you get bashed because "you haven't done it right"

By whose measure? If we are recovering, in a manner and at a pace that is comfortable for us, whose to say if it is wrong?

I wanted out of my A long before Dday. I stopped erasing emails, text msg's and phone calls.

And then my BS found this website, and told me to come here. I didn't spend anytime on the discussion boards, I went through the information first. Ordered HNHN and SAA the next morning. Dday was one day away. Because what I had read on this Dr Harley's website. Not the discussion boards. How special my A really was. How I ended up in a affair. The path we took. EN's and the stages of an A. And the next morning I told OW it was over. She called BS and off to the races we went.

But that morning, my A was over. I had made my choice. No long, dragged out, WH fence sitting, with a pleading BS, begging me to come home. BS having to formulate a Plan A. I plan Aed. I gave her what I hadn't been giving her for a long time.

I almost destroyed my W because of my A. And I have slowly spent the past 18 Months building her back up. As a matter of fact, today is an anniversary date. We will have our customary bottle of wine tonight in the hot tub after the SB.

Did she tell me last night that she is thankful for these 18 months? Yes. Was she blowing smoke? No. Does she still trigger, and have terrible thoughts about the A? about me? about the missing time? Yes.

Are we fully recovered? No. Will talking to OW H have any effect on that. I really believe that the answer is no. But I will bring it up with my BS. And we will use POJA to decide what to do. And the JA is biased in her favor.

Recovery can mean alot of different things to people. Your recovery will not be like mine, or someone elses. And we may have different expectations of what the recovery will look like.

So, I came to these discussion boards about a year into recovery. Learned a number of things. Who to respect, who to ignore, and real disappointment of the treatment of Waywards, who, although lost in the FOG, were looking for a way out. But generally got 2x4's. So back to the fog they go.

I was cheered by the treatment of the Betrayed. They find alot of support. Which, obviously, they really need. But after a while it became plainly obvious to me that some of the BS were probably lousy people as well. Maybe they would get a few 2x4's, but they generally would get a pass. And could take swings at will.

This discussion board needs as many Waywards as it can get. Especially members who have traveled far on the recovery path. Because if they stay around, they can offer assistance and guidance to others with a perspective that Betrayed can not give. Ever. I do not care how many posts you have around here.

And I offer the following proof. There are 956 pages of threads on this GQII board alone. With about 35-40 threads per page. That's 35,372 potential threads of someone searching for help. Many are comedy threads, or observation threads, of the morning coffee types. The vast majority of threads never get to a second page. Why is that? And then we have threads that go for over a hundred pages. Because the original poster hangs around and begins to change. And grow. And we all want to help that growth.

So, Mrs W, no response is required. This thread will die. Maybe even the Moderators will pull it on Monday. Like they most certainly will the other thread about Integrity. That started all this.

And another voice is silenced, "In the Choir" all because it wasn't exactly in harmony with some preconceived thought pattern.

And yes, some may just may claim I am "Still in the FOG" but isn't that justification for the view in the mirror you don't like?

LG...please don't go! I'm hanging around, I'm changing, and I need you to keep helping me.

You are my friend, one of my cheerleaders, and I really rely on you. You see, I'm sitting here crying right now because of some stupid, selfish thing my WH has done. I feel like I'M THE ONLY ONE DOING THE CHANGING...I'm doing all of this growing, becoming a better person, and I just end up with a kick in the face.

Tonight, I feel like I'm trying to save something that's already gone. I need you to keep telling me what it's like on the other side...that all of my changing and sweat and tears aren't for naught. Keep telling me to hang in there.

Please?

Please don't get run off. Long before you came, there was quite a large group of FWW that got chased away. Of course, folks here will say that they didn't chase them off. However they ganged up and posted very harshly, and the FWW left.

I kept up with emails, and 3 of them went back to being WW's. And folks here will tell you that they were nothing but ugly WW's anyway - no loss.

And before someone starts babbling about knocking them in the eyes with the TRUTH, I'm all in favor of truth. But I think that we can speak the truth and what would be the ideal thing to do, while still supporting them in their journey.

Mrs. W...you are great for starting a new thread minus the personal attacks while addressing the issue maturely.

Knowing that FWW's have been run off these boards in the past makes me uneasy. I don't know anything about what happened but I do hope I don't find myself in that position. I have learned SO MUCH from being here and MB probably single handedly saved my marriage (and me, from making the biggest mistake of my life).

I am the one who has taken on the business of repairing and restoring our marriage. I was the bad guy and it's up to me to prove myself worthy of the love by BH has for me.

and for the record...I agree that the other person's spouse should always be told, but I do allow that couples have to make their own decisions based on what they feel is right.

Mrs. W, you are doing a wonderful job here, thank you.

LG...do not feel run off.

There are other WS's who need your viewpoint. It would be a sad commentary on this forum if it existed only to help the BS and could care less about a repentant FWS, but I don't believe that is the case. We are worthy of forgiveness and help. If we are not, then the home page should state, if your spouse has had an affair, divorce immediately.

This site is about restoration. That's what we're all here for. Don't let someone else's bitterness and inability to let go of their personal anger, affect your recovery.

believer, do you really imagine that they were somehow forced back into waywardness by the wicked people on this forum? **edit** No one here has the power to make someone become wayward anymore than we have the power to "run off" someone from this forum. Wild horses could not "run off" someone who is really sincere about getting better. Common sense should dictate that since your "WW friends" went back to being wayward that they were never sincere in the first place, which is exactly why they left.

Folks who tried to peddle bullcrap left of their own volition when they discovered that bullcrap has a short shelf life on this forum. WS' and BS' alike get an earful when they are less than honest and are likely to have their asses handed to them. THANKFULLY.

Many of the WW's you cry about were hardly the "victims" you portray. A person who is SINCERE about recovery would not allow WILD HORSES to "run them off." Nor does anyone here, except a MOD, have the power to "run off" anyone. It is entirely a personal choice. Your friends left because they weren't sincere - as is evidenced by their subsequent waywardness - and because they couldn't peddle their bullcrap here. sheeesh..

First off, MomtoAtoZ, thank you very much for the compliments...I really appreciate it...I've enjoyed your posts around the board as well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LG...Look, when I came here, I was foggy as all get out...Broke No Contact...Came here and argued that it gave me more clarity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...I received well deserved 2x4s that helped me IMMENSELY...I may receive more 2x4s in the future-I'll take them, learn what I can and still remain standing...you take what you need and leave the rest...but I firmly believe that 2x4s help you through this process...The answer here is not to go, but to consider all advice and discuss it with Mrs. LG...Mull it over in your minds and conversations...Let her read the threads, so you both have the same information...

But LG, drop the victim crap...Sorry dude, gotta say it...I'd say that to any of my friends...You are NOT the victim here, and you know it-MAN UP...I do not feel that I am treated poorly or not respected here at all...It's all about perspective and how you view yourself...feelings follow actions, kwim?

Mrs. W

And LG, I hope you don't choose to leave. I think you have been an asset here, and I also think you could benefit from this board. I would honestly be disappointed to see you go. I understand, though, that sometimes its best to just take a break. I have taken sabbaticals from this board myself over the years when I just got fed up with things around here.

But lets be clear here, if you do leave it is due to your own choice. No one has the power to make you leave. If I left everytime I was challenged or had my [censored] handed to me, I would have been gone the first week. And I am a BS! But I understand that I am not entitled to have everyone agree with me all the time. That is just the nature of a internet forum. It goes with the territory. Ya just have to take it like like a man and move on!

But, if you have to take a break for personal reasons, I wish you well, and understand your decision. Take care, friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How does all of this get so off track?

How does the issue become LG?

Why isn't it that posts shouldn't be started like "don't listen to FWS's, they have no integrity..."

LG offers a very unique perspective. The MB forum has very very very few WH's willing to post about what they went through (and what brought them home...). How can anyone question his value and say he shouldn't be listened to????

IMO, LG is not playing victim -- he's defending himself against attacks.

And after all, we have a total of ONE WH posting..........

Ooops - Make that one FWH.