Mr. & Mrs. LG...

For the purpose of reframing things, I thought I would bring this to a new thread...I've included both of our posts here just so we have the whole discussion in one place, fair enough? (My new stuff is in bold)












Mrs. W

I don't want to get all involved in the debate here, but just for clarification...

So can you straighten out the facts of the matter please...
1. FOW is D.
2. FOW no longer lives in Maryland.
3. FOW's XH still lives around....?
4. FOW's XH ALREADY KNOWS about the A AND that LG was the FOM
5. The D was post-A? pre- or post-d-day? (this may be irrelevant, but I'm curious)

I'm not familiar with all the 12-step stuff, which I could look up, but bear with me. Is the issue that LG has not "confessed" to the XH and asked for forgiveness?

Because that would be one thing, and you can all debate that issue on its own merits.

HOWEVER, if it's just a matter of letting the XH know...sounds like he already DOES know...and they are D'd anyway. And to raise the issue with the XH at this point might just re-open an old wound for him...

I don't know...I'm just trying to piece the story together.

Thanks...

BTW: The lights are stayin' on, girlfriend! I'm a lifer. (along with a couple others on this board...)

And now for your local weather: Current temp: 5 above. Current wind chill: 15 below. 14 inches on the ground; blowing hard. It's all lake effect, so it's unpredictable as to exactly where the heavy bands will set up, but they say another 4 inches tomorrow. (awww...I named our boat Lake Affect...nice play on words, don't ya think?)

Mr. & Mrs. Lousygolfer,

Recovery and MB recovery

is sort of like any 12 step recovery program

In AA, they have Step 9 - make amends.

those that fail to "make amends" remain stuck at step 9 indefinitely

I am aware that AA does include the caveat in Step 9 of "make amends but do not harm" which has been used many times herein as a defense...to me, it fails to stand up as a viable defense. To me...the "harm" has already been done. Bestowing the truth and apologizing to your victim is not, in any way, "harm". Besides, you think the BH already knows. If he does, no "harm" AND you get to apologize. If not, you get to bestow upon him the truth of his life and perhaps explain many of the questions that remain for him regarding his divorce. There is nothing more pathetic than a divorced man that says "I'm divorced, I think my wife may have cheated on me but I don't know for certain". It's too late for him to go back and get the truth. YOU (and your wife) may be the only way this man can move forward in an honest individual recovery.

Back to my "stuck in step 9" theory. You and your wife have made significant strides in recovery. You've felt and seen the train rolling and don't want to divert time and attention to a seeming irrelevant issue. I understand that and will respect that for awhile. However, this remains an important step to becoming an honest man and an honest couple. There MUST be an important reason for making amends in AA that apply equally well $in marital recovery. I don't know what the AA theories are but my theory in marital recovery is you'll both be able to escape the hidden and/or ignored burden of maintaining this secret. The secrecy will continue to effect you both. Mrs. LG may, on one hand, want OW completely irrelevant but secretly wonder if you (and her) protecting her was wise. Mrs. LG may, at times, regret not telling and making OW incur the consequences of her behavior and then get upset because she's again thinking of OW instead of keeping her "irrelevant". She may also wonder in you are protecting her. You will find yourself sympathizing and relating to other WS's on the board as you will still have personally insecurities because you remain at step 9 and remain ...not yet...fully healthy. You'll both be stuck.

I personally am giving you a break for a time as I see you progressing. You've got a lot of MB under your belt but you've only been posting for a little while here. I think Dr. Harley will merely say "I recommend you disclose", but he will stop short of requiring it. He may place the onus of disclosure on Mrs. LG because YOU are in NO CONTACT. However, because BH is divorced...you COULD call him, in your wife's presence and tell him together without ANY risk of contact. Anyway, even though it's likely just a highly recommended suggestion and NOT a requirement, my friendship and respect will be contingent upon your actions (and I not presuming you care...only hoping).

BTW, one fear Mrs. LG may feel in discussing this notion of disclosure and "making amends" is your motivations. The discussion alone makes OW relevant when ever fiber of her being wants NOTHING to do with her (or her BH). She may fear you want to again stir OW's pot. However, as I stated above OW and BH will FOREVER remain relevant should you fail to disclose.

It takes courage to do the right thing Mr and Mrs. LG.

GET'ER DONE or as Ben Stiller said in Starsky and Hutch "DEWWWWW IT"

Mr. Wondering

Lil Sis and you on the other thread discussing this issue has brought another consideration to our minds.

Mrs. W and I just discussed this.

The fact that BH and OW are now divorced is irrelevant.

As I said above, his individual divorce recovery is progressing. But if he doesn't know WHY his marriage failed he is likely doing way too much personal inventory. He is likely internalizing way to much blame for the downfall of his marriage. Without "understanding" his wife adulterous behavior with you, he's likely confused and perhaps quite broken.

Broken men. Confused men. Insecure Men.

Make wonderful OM's.

When their taker kicks up and they feel entitled to seek out and undertake ANY relationship that presents itself which, as unhealthy men, and presumably unavailable emotionally for a truly healthy relationship, I submit, will very likely end up being an inappropriate adulterous relationship of their own.

History repeats itself...especially, unknown history that the BH doesn't get the opportunity to learn from.

How can I be sure of this????

Because the OM in our situation was just such unhealthy divorced man. He considered and suspected his wife had cheated on him and had an affair. In fact, she moved in with her "friend" almost immediately upon the completion of the unsuspected divorce proceedings. Being MB educated it is obvious to both Mrs. W and I that he was, in fact, a BH but he never knew FOR SURE. Thus, his divorce shattered him. The loss of custody of his daughter without explanation put him in a tailspin of despair. 6 months later he calls my wife (his old high school girlfriend) to "touch base". The affair ensues.

I propose IF OM KNEW the truth about his wife's affair and known he was a BS the counseling he did undertake would have been much more fruitfull. Perhaps, he would have NEVER become an OM himself. Perhaps my wife's affair would have NEVER happened.

JUST MAYBE there are other peoples lives involved. Continued deceipt IS the devils playground for ALL involved, even potentially people forever unknown to you and your wife.

Mr. Wondering

I only can speak of my personal experience

my firm set in cement boundary was

my husband tell OW's husband himself
or I was done with him

and by making ~that~ step of humble contrition

my husband began his climb out of the muck

I REQUIRE a husband with that level of courage to face the other person he tried to ruin

but ... on a message board .... I find I am mostly required to get along

but my admiration goes out to any wayward who confesses with humility to ALL those he/she wronged ...

my husband apologized to my parents
... which was probably harder than facing OW's H

it's what a real man does
in my opinion

when you have lost your way
check your moral compass

after an indescretion of massive proportions set the bar HIGHER ... not lower

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Mr. and Mrs. W: Thank you for clarifying this for me. I now bow out...

Well said, and I can confirm this with my own empirical evidence. That was the mindset that I was in when I was an OM many years ago. I was as entitled and fogged out as they come.

Since disclosure is the topic of the thread...I did tell the BH. Turns out I was his WW's third A. I moved and established NC for my own sanity. That was 14 years ago. I'm not sure whatever happened to them but I *think* they divorced 2 or 3 years ago.

All that happened years before I even met my W, but I told her the whole story before we got married. My mindset was that if she was going to break up with me, it wouldn't be because I lied to her about something. Been married almost 10 years now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bump for LG...

LG...No intent to "run you off"...Just wanted to offer you some things to think about and discuss with your wife...I hope you understand where I'm coming from...

Mrs. W

Mrs W & Mr. W:

Thanks for trying to help out. I tried to do some of that around here. And you two are some of the best. And nothing here is directed at you personally. After I started writing this, and I got to the end, I just came back to the top to point that out. We never really ever posted to one another, and I really appreciate your attempt. I have thought about it all night and today and went many different ways with my answer.

Go Tigers. Detroit Tigers!


Will my revealing to OWH make some amends? Probably.

Be the right thing to do? Certainly.

Will the OW H be crushed and cruising for other woman, married or not? Interesting speculation, that's all.

All the points you make, in context, make sense. And I would never disagree with you proposing that for others.

But in our situation now, and where we stand, it's water under the bridge.

My BS really wanted to go up to the OW 18 Year Old son and tell him is explicit detail how his mother was rutting on my office floor. She even told OW that on the phone about 10 days after Dday when OW attempted to contact me, and BS got to answer the phone. That stopped all contact from OW.

There is a reason why there are so few Waywards that post around here. Because if you come by early, you get bashed because you may be in the FOG/Lost/stupid/Whatever. And if you come by later, you get bashed because "you haven't done it right"

By whose measure? If we are recovering, in a manner and at a pace that is comfortable for us, whose to say if it is wrong?

I wanted out of my A long before Dday. I stopped erasing emails, text msg's and phone calls.

And then my BS found this website, and told me to come here. I didn't spend anytime on the discussion boards, I went through the information first. Ordered HNHN and SAA the next morning. Dday was one day away. Because what I had read on this Dr Harley's website. Not the discussion boards. How special my A really was. How I ended up in a affair. The path we took. EN's and the stages of an A. And the next morning I told OW it was over. She called BS and off to the races we went.

But that morning, my A was over. I had made my choice. No long, dragged out, WH fence sitting, with a pleading BS, begging me to come home. BS having to formulate a Plan A. I plan Aed. I gave her what I hadn't been giving her for a long time.

I almost destroyed my W because of my A. And I have slowly spent the past 18 Months building her back up. As a matter of fact, today is an anniversary date. We will have our customary bottle of wine tonight in the hot tub after the SB.

Did she tell me last night that she is thankful for these 18 months? Yes. Was she blowing smoke? No. Does she still trigger, and have terrible thoughts about the A? about me? about the missing time? Yes.

Are we fully recovered? No. Will talking to OW H have any effect on that. I really believe that the answer is no. But I will bring it up with my BS. And we will use POJA to decide what to do. And the JA is biased in her favor.

Recovery can mean alot of different things to people. Your recovery will not be like mine, or someone elses. And we may have different expectations of what the recovery will look like.

So, I came to these discussion boards about a year into recovery. Learned a number of things. Who to respect, who to ignore, and real disappointment of the treatment of Waywards, who, although lost in the FOG, were looking for a way out. But generally got 2x4's. So back to the fog they go.

I was cheered by the treatment of the Betrayed. They find alot of support. Which, obviously, they really need. But after a while it became plainly obvious to me that some of the BS were probably lousy people as well. Maybe they would get a few 2x4's, but they generally would get a pass. And could take swings at will.

This discussion board needs as many Waywards as it can get. Especially members who have traveled far on the recovery path. Because if they stay around, they can offer assistance and guidance to others with a perspective that Betrayed can not give. Ever. I do not care how many posts you have around here.

And I offer the following proof. There are 956 pages of threads on this GQII board alone. With about 35-40 threads per page. That's 35,372 potential threads of someone searching for help. Many are comedy threads, or observation threads, of the morning coffee types. The vast majority of threads never get to a second page. Why is that? And then we have threads that go for over a hundred pages. Because the original poster hangs around and begins to change. And grow. And we all want to help that growth.

So, Mrs W, no response is required. This thread will die. Maybe even the Moderators will pull it on Monday. Like they most certainly will the other thread about Integrity. That started all this.

And another voice is silenced, "In the Choir" all because it wasn't exactly in harmony with some preconceived thought pattern.

And yes, some may just may claim I am "Still in the FOG" but isn't that justification for the view in the mirror you don't like?

LG...please don't go! I'm hanging around, I'm changing, and I need you to keep helping me.

You are my friend, one of my cheerleaders, and I really rely on you. You see, I'm sitting here crying right now because of some stupid, selfish thing my WH has done. I feel like I'M THE ONLY ONE DOING THE CHANGING...I'm doing all of this growing, becoming a better person, and I just end up with a kick in the face.

Tonight, I feel like I'm trying to save something that's already gone. I need you to keep telling me what it's like on the other side...that all of my changing and sweat and tears aren't for naught. Keep telling me to hang in there.

Please?

Please don't get run off. Long before you came, there was quite a large group of FWW that got chased away. Of course, folks here will say that they didn't chase them off. However they ganged up and posted very harshly, and the FWW left.

I kept up with emails, and 3 of them went back to being WW's. And folks here will tell you that they were nothing but ugly WW's anyway - no loss.

And before someone starts babbling about knocking them in the eyes with the TRUTH, I'm all in favor of truth. But I think that we can speak the truth and what would be the ideal thing to do, while still supporting them in their journey.

Mrs. W...you are great for starting a new thread minus the personal attacks while addressing the issue maturely.

Knowing that FWW's have been run off these boards in the past makes me uneasy. I don't know anything about what happened but I do hope I don't find myself in that position. I have learned SO MUCH from being here and MB probably single handedly saved my marriage (and me, from making the biggest mistake of my life).

I am the one who has taken on the business of repairing and restoring our marriage. I was the bad guy and it's up to me to prove myself worthy of the love by BH has for me.

and for the record...I agree that the other person's spouse should always be told, but I do allow that couples have to make their own decisions based on what they feel is right.

Mrs. W, you are doing a wonderful job here, thank you.

LG...do not feel run off.

There are other WS's who need your viewpoint. It would be a sad commentary on this forum if it existed only to help the BS and could care less about a repentant FWS, but I don't believe that is the case. We are worthy of forgiveness and help. If we are not, then the home page should state, if your spouse has had an affair, divorce immediately.

This site is about restoration. That's what we're all here for. Don't let someone else's bitterness and inability to let go of their personal anger, affect your recovery.

believer, do you really imagine that they were somehow forced back into waywardness by the wicked people on this forum? **edit** No one here has the power to make someone become wayward anymore than we have the power to "run off" someone from this forum. Wild horses could not "run off" someone who is really sincere about getting better. Common sense should dictate that since your "WW friends" went back to being wayward that they were never sincere in the first place, which is exactly why they left.

Folks who tried to peddle bullcrap left of their own volition when they discovered that bullcrap has a short shelf life on this forum. WS' and BS' alike get an earful when they are less than honest and are likely to have their asses handed to them. THANKFULLY.

Many of the WW's you cry about were hardly the "victims" you portray. A person who is SINCERE about recovery would not allow WILD HORSES to "run them off." Nor does anyone here, except a MOD, have the power to "run off" anyone. It is entirely a personal choice. Your friends left because they weren't sincere - as is evidenced by their subsequent waywardness - and because they couldn't peddle their bullcrap here. sheeesh..

First off, MomtoAtoZ, thank you very much for the compliments...I really appreciate it...I've enjoyed your posts around the board as well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LG...Look, when I came here, I was foggy as all get out...Broke No Contact...Came here and argued that it gave me more clarity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...I received well deserved 2x4s that helped me IMMENSELY...I may receive more 2x4s in the future-I'll take them, learn what I can and still remain standing...you take what you need and leave the rest...but I firmly believe that 2x4s help you through this process...The answer here is not to go, but to consider all advice and discuss it with Mrs. LG...Mull it over in your minds and conversations...Let her read the threads, so you both have the same information...

But LG, drop the victim crap...Sorry dude, gotta say it...I'd say that to any of my friends...You are NOT the victim here, and you know it-MAN UP...I do not feel that I am treated poorly or not respected here at all...It's all about perspective and how you view yourself...feelings follow actions, kwim?

Mrs. W

And LG, I hope you don't choose to leave. I think you have been an asset here, and I also think you could benefit from this board. I would honestly be disappointed to see you go. I understand, though, that sometimes its best to just take a break. I have taken sabbaticals from this board myself over the years when I just got fed up with things around here.

But lets be clear here, if you do leave it is due to your own choice. No one has the power to make you leave. If I left everytime I was challenged or had my [censored] handed to me, I would have been gone the first week. And I am a BS! But I understand that I am not entitled to have everyone agree with me all the time. That is just the nature of a internet forum. It goes with the territory. Ya just have to take it like like a man and move on!

But, if you have to take a break for personal reasons, I wish you well, and understand your decision. Take care, friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How does all of this get so off track?

How does the issue become LG?

Why isn't it that posts shouldn't be started like "don't listen to FWS's, they have no integrity..."

LG offers a very unique perspective. The MB forum has very very very few WH's willing to post about what they went through (and what brought them home...). How can anyone question his value and say he shouldn't be listened to????

IMO, LG is not playing victim -- he's defending himself against attacks.

And after all, we have a total of ONE WH posting..........

Ooops - Make that one FWH.

And your point is.................._________. ?

If LG wasn't valued by us we wouldn't waste our time trying to help he and his wife. The "value to the board" is by far outweighed by our wish to assist he and his wife getting this important and necessary concept.

I will not give him a free pass just because we need a FWH around here...I want he and his wife to achieve a fully recovered marriage.

Should he and his wife decide to keep the secret and he chooses to stick around (which I hope he will after he licks his wounds...I've been there and know it's tough to take one in the chin here so I suggest he just take a couple days, talk with his wife and come back soon), I believe that 99% of his posts hereafter will be very valuable. I want him to achieve 100% otherwise he'll get called out again and again until he eventually does, in fact, leave. Not because "we" chased him off but rather because his position is indefensible to me and quite a few others.

BTW LG and Mrs. LG. Our position will become so obvious to you AFTER you expose. You may not think it's a problem but once it's over...you both will feel relief and KNOW it was the right thing to do.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Every recovered alcoholic comes to a point in recovery where they are out to dinner with friends and the conversation turns to gossip about someone who is not present at the table. Someone will disparage, in hushed tones, that the person is an alcoholic and somehow less than human. At that point, the recovered alcoholic hearing this can either empathize with the alcoholic they are disparaging and get upset or feel personally attacked and insecure OR disassociate themselves from their prior lives and personally feel nothing (not insecure nor hostile) regarding such remarks.

That's the problem here. Without full exposure LG and Mrs. LG will be STUCK in continuing recovery. This issue, the "secret", will remain a insecurity. When this issue arises on MB, which it always does from time to time, LG will be defensive and feel the need to "explore the gray areas" regarding this issue. Yes, he is a FWS and will remain a FWS but at some point, I think, the FWS needs to become a RWS (recovered Wayward Spouse) where the differences between the "sides" become irrelevant.


Edited to add - Go tigers, expose and I'll treat you to a round of golf next summer when you visit Detroit.

Perhaps because that is NOT what was said.

I will say that I agree with others here... LG should stay.... but he will be called out by me and others for not notifying the OBS... I have told him time and again he offers very valuable insight... but that in and of itself does not warrant letting this major insult to BS on this board and to the very BS that LG has harmed. I hope he does stay...I hope he mans up and notifies the OBS of his actions.... he owes that to that person...yes, even if his BW is not on board.

JMHO. And if I tucked tail and ran everytime someone called me on things, I would have been gone my first month here. LG has a choice to stay or go... and anyone that thinks I could run him off affords me too much power.

Again, I hope he corrects this major oversight and decides to stay.

At some point you really are just a spouse and a person.

At some point the affair no longers has the same definative power in your life that it once did.

To get to that point you pretty much have to face every unpleasant monster you might expect to find under your bed and kill it.

edited to add: My refusal to allow persons who would fail to disclose in my life has nothing to do with their affair status and everything to do with the ruthless selfishness they have just demonstrated with that act. I would never turn my back on them for a moment.

Noodle - Thankyou.

You just made me realise something.

I'm finished identifying myself as a FBS etc.

I'm a spouse and a person who is greatly loved.

Thankyou.

I posted a new thread relating to this and the thread on "Don't Get Stuck" about how valuable LG's input was/is to my H and me in helping our marriage get 'unstuck' as we rebuild trust. Sorry, don't know how to link and no time to figure out how.

Ace

[color:"red"] BELIEVER [/color]



incorrect
they never stopped being wayward
they maintained the wayward mentality
they put wayward behavior *on hold* (perhaps, but who knows?) ... those with wayward mentality leave MB forum because their wayward mentality is unappreciated and unloved and is called on the carpet

any wayward who spends enought time on MB reading about the absolute heartbreak that adultery brings ... and then volunteers herself/himself and the family for more heartbreak is either very stupid or heartless ... you choose

Believer, if the OW who tried to ruin my marriage came to MB to sincerely help her marriage, I'd do everything I could to help her with that goal.

Believer, if you spend much times defending the still wayward wives ~because you emailed them~ , I'd have to say my ideas about the principles you stand for were incorrect.

I get emails all the time from formally wayward ... the ones who want to learn how to repair their marriage deserve my respect. The others do not.

principles above personalities

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I believe that the BS should always be told. However, I would not call out a person by name here. If someone ASKED me, I would tell them my thoughts.

I post to, and listen to people all the time here who don't exemplify my principles. This is a discussion board.
I post to lesbians, atheists, and even folks who crate their dogs.

I have a heart for the FWS's here and even most of the WS's.

believer, being an enabler to waywards is not a sign of having a 'heart." There is nothing kind or "compassionate" about enabling cruelty. Not to mention blaming others for their cruelty.

I still maintain that it is better for WS's to be here posting and reading than to be run off. I maintain they have been run off, and THAT is why there are so few (one WH) posting.

*****EDIT************
Thanks!

[color:"red"]Believer [/color]

I don't care who you communicate with, truely I don't (unless it is with MY husband without my knowledge) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

my objection is that you implied that MB posters "ran off" STILL wayward wives

and that is [color:"red"] FALSE[/color] ... it will be false tomorrow too

if a WW leaves it is because MB posters made her UNcomfortable and she did not feel "support" for remaining wayward ... and I say >>> SO WHAT?

Pep

And that is certainly your right, to do as you please...This thread was a call out to LG and his wife to HELP them when Mr. W and myself saw that they were doing something that we STRONGLY believe will hinder their recovery and that completetly IGNORES the other victim...It is a matter of OUR principles...

And though, you may not ever have "called out" anyone on a thread, that has certainly not stopped you from talking about them on other threads...IMO, is it far more disrespectful to talk ABOUT someone, rather than to talk TO them...


Again, you are welcomed to post to any folks that you have something to say to or feel that you can help...Same standard that Mr. W and I use...


And so do Mr. W and myself...I AM a FWS and Mr. W is MARRIED to one (ME!)...I resent the implication...

Mrs. W

I catch flack about being "soft" on exposure....but really....I'm not arguing about exposure (a concept I not only suggest, but believe in) on these threads. I'm arguing against censorship and about the intolerance for any diversity in opinion about this and other issues. I'm arguing about the hyper-focus on this one issue at the expense sometimes of other important considerations or strategies. For instance....a SAHM might want to secure some separate finances before launching work-related exposure. I'm concerned that new people get this advice before even being welcomed or hearing their whole situation. I'm also concerned that people who've been here a long time....and don't think exposure is right for them....really get continuously hammered.

I support exposure....but I also support the right not to choose exposure. I'm responsible for my own integrity....no one else's. Having integrity for me is, in part....recognizing the humanity and imperfection of everyone.....recognizing that even good people with integrity may not think or act or believe the same things I do.

I understand those folks who consider "exposure" not just a marriage recovery/affair ending strategy, but an issue of moral integrity. It's the path I would choose for myself too. I struggle somewhat when people decide what is "moral" for everyone or what defines "integrity" for everyone.

I'm not talking about morality being "subjective" either. I believe there are some reasonable guidelines of restraint for integrity and morality.

But I also believe that I can have some substantive differences between my views and the views of others....without assuming those people lack integrity or morality just because they make different choices than I would.

One example might be that even though my Jewish friend and I don't look at Christ in the same way....it doesn't mean that my friend lacks integrity. I don't share all of her views....but it's clear to me that she acts true to her character and faith. I don't agree with the Pope on the role of women in the church (I might go so far as to say they may be "immoral")....but I think he has alot of integrity. Conversely, I see all the charitable work of Angelina Jolie....and I still think she has NO integrity. My friend Myschae is an atheist and I find her to have great integrity. In other words....integrity is a bigger than one issue, or one snapshot in time. It is about how you live your life as a whole. Exposure is a good indication of a moral conviction not to harm anyone else, and good indication of a life with integrity....but it's only a good indication it's not the whole shebang. Every person who has integrity also has sin...has failings...makes mistakes. I look at failure to exposure in an otherwise moral life in the context of that life.

I think there are people on this board who will never expose who have great integrity....I also think there are plenty of people who will expose broadly and loudly and have none.

Well, I am not sure what **************when you suggest that members here have caused a wayward wife to go back to her wayward ways and that anyone here has the power to "run off" anyone. But, it can't be too good.

No one here "ran off" your wayward friends, believer. It is patently false to say that anyone here "ran them off." They go where they will find the LEAST resistance for their wayward ways, and that, unfortunately, seems to be YOU. And NOT this board.

Thanks Starfish - finally someone who sees the big picture.

Again with the implications...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I liked it better when you were the "greeter" around here...What are the chances we could go back to that???

Mrs. W

So, if I am hearing you correctly... you support exposure... BUT, you feel it is okay for others to choose to keep a BS in the dark if they so choose? Am I hearing that correctly?

Wow...this looks like one of the battles I always used to end up embroiled in!

Personally, I can completely see Believer's viewpoint. And Starfish's.

I maintain that the focus has always been rebuilding the POSTER'S marriage. Regardless of the posters role in the affair. And on the exposure question, the same thing applies. If exposing to the OPS could result in a violation of an agreement with the BS or further 'betrayel' of that BS (in the marriage that we're trying to assist), then the choice to expose remains a POJA issue. If both parties can't agree, then the needs of the BS should remain paramount.

I also realize that not everyone else on this forum feels that way, and that they will vehemently fight their viewpoint to the end.

Last, I KNOW that Believer is right...there have been any number of WS's that have posted here, been lambasted immediately, and left. Not every WS that comes here is completely ready to totally face up to their guilt immediately...it takes time for them to work up to that point. If they come here before that point, the odds are very high that they won't be 'guided' or 'assisted' to that point...they'll feel immediately attacked and judged and will leave. No shock...who wants to stay where they feel that way? Anyone? Bueller?

Now, if we managed to get them to stay, and work with them to begin the recovery process, instead of smashing their faces into the harsh truth (hey, it needs to happen, but its the when and how that are important too), how much more good could we do?

Just throwing my .02 in...and I'm done. Good evening all.

So, the OBS just gets the shaft in your view huh? The forgotten victim??? Hey, we are getting on with our marriage... that poor slob is on his own. Very nice.

And personally, I agree with the Mr. & Mrs W that no one here chases off a WS.... it is the lack of standing that their position has that makes them unable to defend their positions. And anyone that suggests that they were back to being wayward because they were chased off here is way off base. They go back to being wayward because they have no integrity.
Just my 2 cents.

Well I don't know who hid the jedi mind ray but chasing people off has never worked for me.

And dang it I have tried!

I agree ... but she's only an actress ...
most people in that industry function just fine with no discernible integrity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

the discussions in our home on this very subject are entertaining and endless ...

Not always. IMHO, I DO advocate exposing to the OBS. Had OM been married in my situation, I ABSOLUTELY would have ensured that his BS knew. For all of the reasons that you've heard listed...I agree with exposing to OBS. And I strongly feel that it should happen in almost every case.

But...not everyone does. And if the BS (for whatever misguided reason) cannot agree to POJA on this, then I feel that the FWS's FIRST duty is to their own marriage...they shouldn't violate the needs/wants/whatever of their OWN BS to try to fix OP's marriage. Remember, part of recovery is giving up ANYTHING to do with OP...to include making that person's marriage your business.

The only reasons that I personally would consider not exposing would be if I KNEW that NC had been maintained for an extended period of time, and that exposing could be an avenue for OP to contact the FWS...that's a risk not worth taking, IMHO.

And yes, I feel that working on MY marriage should take precedence of working on someone else's. And I would expect anyone who's trying to work on their marriage would likely work under that same premise. Guess I'm just a self-centered SOB.

nevermind.

I totally agree...as long as POJA is reached on the subject. But if for whatever reason the BS will not agree to it, the FWS's FIRST duty is to their own BS and marriage...any action against the BS's wishes would give the indication that the OP's marriage was more important than that of their own...which would be destructive to their own efforts to rebuild their marriage.

Again, I'm saying all of this with this caveat...I'm NOT one of those people who would insist on not exposing to OBS. Again, in my case, if there had been one, I WOULD have insisted that they be told. I'm simply pointing out that there are times when POJA can't be reached on this because the BS doesn't know MB principles and can see the advantage of doing so, or whatever. And when that happens, the FWS's top priority should be their own marriage. Others (including yourself) may not agree...and as you said, we'll agree to disagree. Now, if the FWS can help their BS to understand why it is in their own best interst and GAIN that POJA for exposure...GREAT. No question about what should happen next.

As far as the people I befriended last summer...I had no idea on the whole troll thing going on, just like everyone else. I had no idea what kind of person we were dealing with. But, given that, I still stick by my 'logic' and 'reasoning' that I gave then and now.

Here is my Post to Dr. Harley:

____________________________

Dr. Harley:

First time to post here, but have been on the discussion Boards for a while. I haved reveiwed a number of your threads here and have not found this specific issue addressed. So, please bear with me.

I am the wayward spouse. DDay was 8/4/05. The OW called my BS and told her about our A.

My W had found this Website 2 days before and we were able to glean much information. I ordered HNHN and SAA and even attended with BS the MB Weekend in Philadelphia in Oct 2005.

No Contact with OW has been acheieved, and has been in place since a couple of days after Dday.

The last attempt by OW to contact me was intercepted by my W, (Phone Call on Caller ID, W picked up) and W was very explict to OW what was going to happen next if OW made any more attempts.

However, at that time, or since, we have never contacted OP Spouse to reveal the A. With the knowledge I have now, I believe that revealing to OPS around Dday, or if Contact is continuing, then Exposure to OPS is needed. Because it can be one of the number 1 killers of an A.

My spouse and I have never had a conversation regarding this subject. Early on, yes, we did discuss in passing, and I didn't want her to reveal. Although, we never had a argument or disagreement about it. Meaning, we concentrated on ourselves. And if BS had made it something that she had to do, I think she would have, and I would not have stopped her. And after the above noted telephone conversation, the issue never came up again. BS does have some regrets not having told OPS, just to have created the same pain for OW as she was going thru.

So. I have been challenged by others to "Man-up" and reveal to OPS about what his W was doing to him for 4.5 years. OP have since gotten divorced, and OW has moved out of this state. OP Spouse is still near by. Wife and I will have a conversation about this, and us POJA to decide which way to go. As an aside, many people know of my A. My W did tell a number of friends/her boss/others about it. So, it is not "Still a Secret" for me.

Our recovery is going quite well. And if I was to describe the problems to overcome, this isn't one of them.

My questions to you are:

Should I reveal to OP Spouse from a MB point of View about the nature of the A and it's extent?

What questions should I ask, and what points should I discuss with my BS in regards to this? Pros/Cons?

And if we POJA to notify, what type of communication should it be, and what should it say?

And last:
Dr Harley, from a morality point of view, it is the right thing to do. I understand this. And the overwhelming reason to do so. But, what does it accomplish 18 months later? 36 Months Later? 5 years?

_____________________

And Dr Harley's response:


lousygolfer: I'll answer your questions in the order you asked them:

Should I reveal to OP Spouse from a MB point of View about the nature of the A and it's extent?

The primary reason to reveal the affair to lover's spouse (OPS) is to gain support in breaking up the affair. But when the affair is already over, that reason is lost. A secondary reason is for altruistic reasons -- the OPS should know that the affair took place (you would want to know if the tables were turned). But for the practical reason of helping your marriage, I regard it as optional, and should be done only if you both enthusiastically agree to it.

What questions should I ask, and what points should I discuss with my BS in regards to this? Pros/Cons?

If you both enthusiastically agree that it should be revealed, I would give the OPS any evidence you have (email, voicemail, etc.) to prove that the affair took place. Even when a WS confesses to the OPS, he often doesn't want to believe it. I would also let your wife make the call, and answer whatever questions she has.

And if we POJA to notify, what type of communication should it be, and what should it say?

See above.

And last:
Dr Harley, from a morality point of view, it is the right thing to do. I understand this. And the overwhelming reason to do so. But, what does it accomplish 18 months later? 36 Months Later? 5 years?

It's moral in the sense that you are helping your spouse's lover come to grips with his problem. Hopefully, they will go through the same process you followed, and their marriage will not only be successful, but they will have prevented future affairs. Remember, though; your wife is to have absolutely no contact with her former lover. You should make the call just in case he answers. When his wife is on the line, you can turn the phone over to your wife. It may be a good idea for you to both be on the phone at the same time talking to the OPS.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

______________________________

Comments?

at my job
I got this email (one among a bazillion they put out)
that 'splains the difference between policy vs guideline

according to my employer

policies are statements of principles/requirements for handling particular circumstances

policies direct conduct
when the orginization is under scrutiny by regulators, policies are reviewed to determine expectations and can be used as evidence

guidelines (according to the people who write this stuff) are non-binding tools that suggest processes, tasks, or activities
guidelines are used to achieve implimentation of policies

so it depends on how one sees the situation ...

is this a policy
or a guideline ?

Pep

Whoo-hoo, can I answer that?! No, I wouldn't have stayed, and now look at me, outta da fog and loving my hubby, he's happy, we're happy, all is pretty good. If I hadn't stuck around, I would not be where I am now, I'm sure of it.