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I had a call with SH yesterday and a topic came up that I was hoping some folks could help me understand.

Basically SH said that one of the difficulties in my recovery is my FWW's belief system. A independent belief system is one were you believe it is vitally important to be self-sufficient and to not need anyone else. Relationships with others are built around other priorities. Happiness will come from the accomplishments, regardless of the quality of interpersonal relationships. While an interdependent belief system is one were you believe that it is ok to be dependent on another person. Other priorities are built around the relationship. Happiness comes from the relationship regardless of the other accomplishments.

People with independent belief systems always seem to be searching for something that will make them happy, i.e., the next job, more material things, etc. While people with interdependent belief systems search to have a a strong relationship.

Does anyone understand that or have any comments.


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That really does make a lot of sense to me. I have evolved from being a - VERY - independent person to an interdependent person and it is has dramatically changed the make up of my marriage. I still get great satisifaction from my career, but my happiness comes from the closeness of a loving, intimate marriage.

I cringe when I remember telling someone that "my husband and I ARE NOT connected at the hip. We would have happy, full lives if one of us died." We led completely seperate lives and our marriage was really nonexistant. We are divorced today and this is one of the reasons.

I can't believe what I was missing all those years. I could have had a wonderful, intimate relationship if I had been aware of how damaging my independent behavior was to my marriage. It truly did change the degree of happiness in my life.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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rprynne, what did MT think of it?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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rprynne Offline OP
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Unfortunately MT wasn't in the call with SH and since she is out of town for work, we have not really discussed it.

It is somewhat why I posted the question, was to get others thoughts about the concept to help me think about how I would talk to MT about it. It is very hard for me to have any affect when I talk to MT about things like this. She is very cynical about what I have to say, I guess at the core she doesn't trust me.

What I thought was very interesting, about your comment, is that it seems that this dosconnect would make life very confusing. I am amazed that after two years of asking the question "What do you want" to MT, she still says I don't know.

I think that is the confusion that comes from thinking you can be happy with an independent belief system. You would be stuck with knowing that holding that belief system does not make you happy, but just can't let go of that belief system that you have held on to for so long. Constantly searching for something (intimacy) that you can't have unless your willing to be interdependent.

The tragedy to me, is that I don't think MT will even consider this is a possibility.


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I don't think that being independent and interdependent are necessarily mutually exclusive. I do, however, define independent somewhat differently than you do here. I don't think that this worldview naturally implies a materialistic bent; I think it's more about realizing the importance of one's personal power and keeping it active and involved in the entirety of one's life. I think that this is an essential ingredient to being successfully interdependent. If you rely on your spouse to know what you need - which to me signifies a high degree of dependency - then you likely will be unhappily interdependent. On the other hand, if you are independently aware of what you want/need, you can ask for it and get your needs met.

As you have defined an independent belief system here, it sounds like an attempt to rid oneself of true connection in life. Almost like trying to prove that one can survive without true connections with other people. It seems to be replacing satisfaction in relationship with something akin to lust fulfillment: "I desire something (material or something else viewed in a materialistic way) and getting it is my goal. Relationships are a means to getting what I want, not what I want in and of themselves." However, I think this thinking is pervasive and even desirable in capitalism as it drives the economy. So I think this drive is always going to be alive in the people in such a society. How it's employed is what's important. If it's looked at as the means to achieve true happiness, then you have a person that is trying to achieve happiness through satiety. We all know what happens several hours after you eat. Happiness is in those moments of hunger too. If it’s not, you’re searching for something other than happiness.

My thinking differs from this because I think it's quite possible, and healthy, to be independent and still desire having a relationship for the sake of relationship. In fact, I think a relationship suffers when people give up their independence for the sake of the relationship - I think this signifies that there is a deeper something desired from the relationship, something of personal significance that is being sought in the relationship that isn't of or about it. Maybe this is even viewed in a materialistic way. I think you can recognize and realize your ability to make it on your own and still consciously choose to do it with your spouse, and this continued independent choice keeps commitment alive. It prevents the marriage from becoming one of necessity and eventually a prison.

Relating this to happiness this way is another issue entirely. As I think I’ve made clear already, I think it's possible to be independent and not tie happiness to achievement or accomplishments (isn't a high quality relationship an accomplishment?), but rather tying it to appreciating the privilege of life and all that comes along with that. I think people who are successfully interdependent have chosen to share a great deal more goals. They have made relationship goals personal goals. Independently, they have decided to make these goals a top priority and as independent people have committed to working towards these goals. If independence prevents one from ever adopting relationship goals as one's own because there is fear of being tied to another, than this to me would not be true independence, but rather the other person is entirely dependant on other people to define their independence. Does that make sense? It's totally dysfunctional because it looks to the distance kept between people to define the person as independent, yet to have distance, it requires another person.

In your situation, I’m not sure that the worldviews are the problem here. I think it’s got more to do with what you each are looking for in life and in your relationship. If your W is looking for something other than happiness, yet believes she’s looking for happiness, she won’t recognize the true happiness she has. You each bring into the relationship different ideas of what success in a relationship is – and you might not be able to recognize or be able to articulate this to each other. You can’t agree on how you set goals together because you are looking for different things, even though you use the same word. You can’t measure results on the same scale. I think she may need some time to really understand what she really wants out of a relationship or life – right now she’s unclear, and there’s a lot of noise (society, family, you, etc.) that are preventing her from having some vision of what she wants. I think if you can be a really good listener she can explore this with you and through this process you both can find a way to set goals that lead you in the right direction together.

Just my two cents. I’m not sure if I’ve helped anything here, but I think it’s an interesting subject.

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Muddle - I think I follow what you're saying. In fact, I think I would normally say something similar. I'm still processing some of this, so I may get some things wrong. I may even contradict myself.

Anyway, if I were to think about the causal chain that SH was talking about here's how I would word it. First off, they are not pro-marriage. They are pro happiness. It is their belief, based on their experience that happiness comes from having a feeling of being connected to another person. Call it marriage or any other term for the union. They aren't saying all a person needs is to feel connected. More like that being connected fills up say 55% of your happiness meter. All the other things, no matter how well you excel them can't consistently fill up more than 50%. They may occassionally do more than that, but they eventually dip below. If you work out the math it means even if everything outside of feeling connected is going perfect, your still below what happiness feeling connected would bring even if everything else was a complete disaster. So priorty #1 should be that feeling connected.

In order to feel connected to another person, you have to be vulnerable to that person. You have to rely on that person to provide you something and also risk being hurt by that person. This is contradictory to a independent belief system, in which you don't need another person to provide anything. (BTW - this is some of the fantasy of an A, you get the feelings of being at risk, without actually being at risk) In fact someone with an independent belief system may go to great lengths to avoid having to need something from someone else. They mitigate the risk.

Anyway, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this, as it's hard for me to connect the dots on this.

I asked SH, okay, what makes a person this way? His answer was basically its a control mechanism. People don't feel in control when they are at risk. He said this usually gets overdeveloped with people who have been hurt in a R before, or were abused.

Finally I asked, ok well what do you do about it. He said normally, it is very difficult to get a person to let go of this. Which is why they have the tools that they suggest, meeting EN's, etc. If you follow that blindly, you will come out the other side in a R where you are vulnerable and have a need for someone else.

Its confusing to me, but it seems to fit at least some things in my M history. My FWW seems to be unwilling to let me meet her EN's. She won't let me help her with anything. Her work is more important to her than her M. She always makes a point to let me know if I had not been able to do something for her she had a backup plan. I used to have a myriad of thoughts in my mind as to why this was like this. Sometimes I thought she wanted my approval or respect. But thinking about this paradigm, I just wonder if it has more to do with the fact that she is determined to not need anybody.

Then I think about I've been spending all this time making sure that knows that I can go own without her and I'm like, huh, how does that fit with being interdependent.

I think I have a headache.


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Anyway, if I were to think about the causal chain that SH was talking about here's how I would word it. First off, they are not pro-marriage. They are pro happiness.

And when you put marriage on the same plane as happiness, you end up with the unrealistic sense that the unhappy moments, the pain that naturally occurs as a byproduct of living and sharing space with another person, mean that the marriage isn't contributing to personal happiness the way it should. The healthy perspective to hold (and I say healthy because it allows for both personal happiness and the success of the marital union which has importance in societal and familial structure - it benefits the individual as well as society) is that pain does not negate happiness, and furthermore, the pain caused by a spouse is not intentional. Marriage and happiness are distinct, and they are on different planes, yet have a profound influence on each other. I think this is why it's so important to have a clear mission statement for a marriage, a set of goals that will allow you to measure its success without solely resorting to the subjective emotional state of the two participants.

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In order to feel connected to another person, you have to be vulnerable to that person. You have to rely on that person to provide you something and also risk being hurt by that person. This is contradictory to a independent belief system, in which you don't need another person to provide anything.

So, because your W doesn't want to risk needing you, she can't be intimate? Is this the essence of what you're saying?

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In fact someone with an independent belief system may go to great lengths to avoid having to need something from someone else. They mitigate the risk.

So the fear of neediness is running one's life, it's not a celebration of being a unique individual. It always seems to boil down to this love/fear dichotomy.

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I asked SH, okay, what makes a person this way? His answer was basically its a control mechanism. People don't feel in control when they are at risk. He said this usually gets overdeveloped with people who have been hurt in a R before, or were abused.

Build a wall around yourself and no one bad can get in. The trouble is that you're allowing your fear of the bad to prevent good connections.

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Finally I asked, ok well what do you do about it. He said normally, it is very difficult to get a person to let go of this. Which is why they have the tools that they suggest, meeting EN's, etc. If you follow that blindly, you will come out the other side in a R where you are vulnerable and have a need for someone else.

I think the tools they suggest are somewhat like the trust exercises that many organizations use. If she takes a small step in the direction of trust, something that doesn't require her to risk much of anything, she'll eventually recognize that the beliefs behind this defense mechanism are irrational and dysfunctional and she will also recognize the benefits of going beyond the limits she set for herself.

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Its confusing to me, but it seems to fit at least some things in my M history. My FWW seems to be unwilling to let me meet her EN's.

Have you directly communicated about this? Are you aware of what her needs are? Is she?

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She won't let me help her with anything. Her work is more important to her than her M. She always makes a point to let me know if I had not been able to do something for her she had a backup plan. I used to have a myriad of thoughts in my mind as to why this was like this. Sometimes I thought she wanted my approval or respect. But thinking about this paradigm, I just wonder if it has more to do with the fact that she is determined to not need anybody.

This does make sense. Perhaps you can start to aproach things from a different angle. Maybe you can speak about needs with different words. Refer to them as wants. Start thinking about things with regard to desires and not needs. This way there is less of the dependency association for her. You doing something nice for her because she thinks it might be nice is very different than you doing it because she needs you to.

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Then I think about I've been spending all this time making sure that knows that I can go own without her and I'm like, huh, how does that fit with being interdependent.

I don't really think it does. I think it's a means of making yourself feel better because you acknowledge that you can go on without her should you need to. It also serves to tell her that this train isn't staying in this station forever.

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I think I have a headache.

I hear you. This thinking stuff can get dangerous sometimes!

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Then I think about I've been spending all this time making sure that knows that I can go own without her and I'm like, huh, how does that fit with being interdependent.

Knowledge that you are self-sufficient (not behaving independently) and happy with yourself, gives you the safety you need to become vulnerable and interdependant.

You don't need your relationship to be a whole person, you desire it.


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I think I have a headache.

V-8 usually works for me. I have no idea why. <smile>


Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~Benjamin Franklin~
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Marriage and happiness are distinct, and they are on different planes, yet have a profound influence on each other. I think this is why it's so important to have a clear mission statement for a marriage, a set of goals that will allow you to measure its success without solely resorting to the subjective emotional state of the two participants.

In one sense, I agree. But I think SH may disagree. Let's remove the term marriage, but just say connected relationship. I would think SH would say you can't have real happiness without a connected relationship.

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So, because your W doesn't want to risk needing you, she can't be intimate? Is this the essence of what you're saying?

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Just not sure if its right. And its not just me, its anyone. If the above is true, then why the neccessity of the A?

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So the fear of neediness is running one's life, it's not a celebration of being a unique individual. It always seems to boil down to this love/fear dichotomy.

Always does doesn't it.

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Have you directly communicated about this? Are you aware of what her needs are? Is she?

Yes. But when I go about meeting her needs, they don't seem to have any effect. SH asked me the question - what if another woman set about meeting all your EN's, would you fall in love with her. I said no. He asked why and I said because my brain would say, this is just a friend or a co-worker. It is wrong for you to get attached to this treatment. SH says my FWW is doing the same thing, but for different reasons. Another irony, is that no matter what I tell my FWW what my EN's are, she goes about meeting the ones that are not that important to me. She works very hard at meeting my bottom EN's so to speak. I try to be appreciative, but.....


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This does make sense. Perhaps you can start to aproach things from a different angle. Maybe you can speak about needs with different words. Refer to them as wants. Start thinking about things with regard to desires and not needs. This way there is less of the dependency association for her. You doing something nice for her because she thinks it might be nice is very different than you doing it because she needs you to.

I've tried this to some extent. It just gets bogged down. Her answer is always I want to do what you want. Again, this to me looks like a way to keep me at a distance. I think my answer on this may be to ultimately stop asking. Don't know.


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I don't really think it does. I think it's a means of making yourself feel better because you acknowledge that you can go on without her should you need to. It also serves to tell her that this train isn't staying in this station forever.

Fair point.

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Knowledge that you are self-sufficient (not behaving independently) and happy with yourself, gives you the safety you need to become vulnerable and interdependant.

You don't need your relationship to be a whole person, you desire it.

Also a fair point. But where I get a little hung up is SH's trail of desire follows need, so to speak. Doesn't being interdependet require you to need someone, then as they fill that need in a proper fashion, they become desirable? How can one simultaneously need then desire someone, yet know they are self-sufficent?


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In one sense, I agree. But I think SH may disagree. Let's remove the term marriage, but just say connected relationship. I would think SH would say you can't have real happiness without a connected relationship.

I think they are essential componants in the other - without having good connected relationship in your life, your life is less full, and therefore, you are not as happy as you could be. Also, if you are not happy in areas of your life other than the marriage, your marriage will suffer. Interdependent but distinct.

If you have not read Erich Fromm's "The Art of Loving" please do. He talks about the loving being a way one decides to engage in relationship with everyone. He doesn't limit it to romantic relationships. I think this is makes a lot of sense in terms of happiness because when you have satisfying connections with people you feel happy, and when you feel happy, you bring this happiness back into the marriage. I tend to think that an affair is far more likely in people that are unable to, or just don't, connect with people in meaningful ways on a regular basis. When they do connect with someone, the intensity of the satisfaction is so strong and in such stark contrast with what occurs in other relationships. Add to that the additional feelings that come from stress and excitement, and it becomes a potent drug.

So from a psychological perspective, being able to relate meaningfully with others in general is crucial to happiness, and I would say to marriage.

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So, because your W doesn't want to risk needing you, she can't be intimate? Is this the essence of what you're saying?

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Just not sure if its right. And its not just me, its anyone. If the above is true, then why the neccessity of the A?

I think people, being social beings, NEED meaningful social contact. They need to communicate their feelings and connect with others. If, for whatever reason, a person tries to ignore this need they will eventually force themselves to satisfy this need in subconsciously in dysfunctional ways. If you tell yourself you're only going to eat 300 calories a day, and you're going to only get it from cardboard, then somehow you get a taste of delicious food by accident, you ARE going to eat something, and you'll likely binge. Connection is a need just like eating, and pretending one doesn't have needs doesn't make it true.

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Yes. But when I go about meeting her needs, they don't seem to have any effect. SH asked me the question - what if another woman set about meeting all your EN's, would you fall in love with her. I said no. He asked why and I said because my brain would say, this is just a friend or a co-worker. It is wrong for you to get attached to this treatment. SH says my FWW is doing the same thing, but for different reasons. Another irony, is that no matter what I tell my FWW what my EN's are, she goes about meeting the ones that are not that important to me. She works very hard at meeting my bottom EN's so to speak. I try to be appreciative, but.....

Essentially she's sabotaging the process. She doesn't want to believe, so she won't allow herself to reap the benefits of either having her needs met OR meeting yours. Maybe you need to make it clear that your high priority needs are essential to your satisfaction in the relationship, and if she doesn't meet these needs to your satisfaction, you're not really interested in being in the relationship. I think this might be a bit much, but if she's not really concerned with the emotional benefits, maybe the threat to the partnership might make her realize the importance of it.

Is she going to an IC?

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But where I get a little hung up is SH's trail of desire follows need, so to speak. Doesn't being interdependet require you to need someone, then as they fill that need in a proper fashion, they become desirable? How can one simultaneously need then desire someone, yet know they are self-sufficent?

I'm self sufficient because I recognize that I have needs and I know that I can get my needs met, whether it be by my current wife, or a different woman in the future. I desire to have my wife meet my needs now. Does that make sense?

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I think people, being social beings, NEED meaningful social contact. They need to communicate their feelings and connect with others. If, for whatever reason, a person tries to ignore this need they will eventually force themselves to satisfy this need in subconsciously in dysfunctional ways.

I know what you mean. I guess more of what I'm saying, is that by having the A, she clearly demonstrated that she has a need for an emotional connection. But in talking to me, she denies that was the case. Ok, those two things can't exist. If she truly does not have a need for an emotional connection, then why have the A. KWIM. So that leaves me saying you do have a need for an emotional connection, why deny it? Then I say, you surely could not have fooled your self into having met that need for an emotional connection via the A, without sharing intimacy, without becoming interdependent with OM. For example, it has happened in the past that she has come home late on our anniversary because of work. An example of work being more important than the M. I can guarentee you that she dropped things at work to meet the OM. Simply by the number and nature of whoppers she told me, the nature of things she missed or rescheduled doing with me, she made the A a priority. I mean, she would not even answer a cell phone call if I called her when she was out with OM and all she had to do was say excuse me for a minute I need to take this call.

Its ironic, but I can remeber one night, when she has late coming to dinner with some of our friends, I had called her repeatedly on her cell phone and she didn't answer. She said she was meeting with clients for a drink and it would have been rude to stop and answer the cell. We argued about it all the way to dinner. Then in the first five minutes of dinner, she got a cell phone call, immediately answered it and then walked over to the bar to talk on the phone for a full fifteen minutes.

I'm rambling a bit, but my point is she shared intimacy, she made the A a priority, etc., but she denies all this.

She says OM was very similar to me and they just talked about chit chat stuff. Yet I'll ask her well this e-mail you sent him about how you'll be selling the house soon, how much you love him and miss him, etc. sure doesn't seem like that. Her response, I was just lying to him, to keep stringing him along. I mean, it may sound funny, but that's one lie during all of this, that I would have liked to hear and probably would have been useful in her deception, but I've never seen an e-mail to me like that.

But she denies all of the emotional side of it. To her, its a guy asked me out to dinner, I slept with him, I fell in love with him and all this happened over talk of sports scores and the weather with really no effort on her part at all.

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Essentially she's sabotaging the process. She doesn't want to believe, so she won't allow herself to reap the benefits of either having her needs met OR meeting yours. Maybe you need to make it clear that your high priority needs are essential to your satisfaction in the relationship, and if she doesn't meet these needs to your satisfaction, you're not really interested in being in the relationship. I think this might be a bit much, but if she's not really concerned with the emotional benefits, maybe the threat to the partnership might make her realize the importance of it.

I think she is sabatoging things. I don't really know why. Its what throws me off. I mean IMO, she has clearly demonstrated an ability to adopt an interdependent belief system. She clearly thought that it would make her happy, as she planned to run off with OM. What shuts this down in our M.

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Is she going to an IC?

No - she won't do it. She says she started going to one, but like everything else she got too busy at work to keep going.


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by having the A, she clearly demonstrated that she has a need for an emotional connection. But in talking to me, she denies that was the case.

She's not being honest with you, probably because she's not being honest with herself. I think your assessment is accurate, whether she acknowledges the truth to it or not. She has needs, she enjoyed having them met, yet for some reason she is ashamed or disinclined to admit to you that she has them. I think this has more to do with her perception of the roles in marriage and less to do with you personally.

I think the best way to influence her in this situation is to present your own needs assertively. If you can present your needs in such a way that demonstrates your strength rather than neediness, she may realize that having needs is different than being needy. Model this and eventually it will take the stigma out of it.

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Then I say, you surely could not have fooled your self into having met that need for an emotional connection via the A, without sharing intimacy, without becoming interdependent with OM.

Your logic is sound, but here's an interesting twist in how I view this: people in an affair get some of the chemical satisfaction from the thrill of breaking societal mores. She got an additional rush from breaking her own code - she allowed herself to need and in so doing she was that much more of a bad girl. KWIM? She tried out a different role for size, something that allowed her to be someone different than she pressures herself to be.

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For example, it has happened in the past that she has come home late on our anniversary because of work. An example of work being more important than the M. I can guarentee you that she dropped things at work to meet the OM.

Again, I think this is about playing a different role and that means a drastic shift in priorities. It's not reasonable yet there is a certain significance to it. The question "you did it for him, why can't you for our marriage" must pop up in your mind a lot.

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Its ironic, but I can remeber one night, when she has late coming to dinner with some of our friends, I had called her repeatedly on her cell phone and she didn't answer. She said she was meeting with clients for a drink and it would have been rude to stop and answer the cell. We argued about it all the way to dinner. Then in the first five minutes of dinner, she got a cell phone call, immediately answered it and then walked over to the bar to talk on the phone for a full fifteen minutes.

This pisses me off too. One thing that really frustrates me is my W has always defered to her mother. For example, we're driving in the car and my W is giving me directions. MIL calls. I have a question about where to turn and ask W, who ignores me, holds up her hand and tells me to wait, gets nasty with me, etc., when all she would have to do is say "hold on mom - turn left up here."

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but my point is she shared intimacy, she made the A a priority, etc., but she denies all this.

She denies it to you probably because she's trying to convince herself. And the why behind all of this is really her issue.

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I think she is sabatoging things. I don't really know why. Its what throws me off. I mean IMO, she has clearly demonstrated an ability to adopt an interdependent belief system. She clearly thought that it would make her happy, as she planned to run off with OM. What shuts this down in our M.

I think she is not allowing herself to recognize her own neediness. Her latent personal neediness eventually broke loose and took over for a time. She is now ashamed of the actions that were undertaken by this other personality so she's forcing it back into the dark shadows of her soul. I think that if she continues to do this, her "needy" side will eventually become so starved that she'll do this again. I think what's missing is self acceptance and nurturing and incorporating all aspects of her being in everyday life. I think she sees the M as serious and an accomplishment rather than a source of pleasure, comfort, learning, wisdom, etc. The A was totally different. She didn't have expectations for it the way she did/does for marriage. I really think she would do well with an IC.

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I tend to think that an affair is far more likely in people that are unable to, or just don't, connect with people in meaningful ways on a regular basis. When they do connect with someone, the intensity of the satisfaction is so strong and in such stark contrast with what occurs in other relationships. Add to that the additional feelings that come from stress and excitement, and it becomes a potent drug.

So from a psychological perspective, being able to relate meaningfully with others in general is crucial to happiness, and I would say to marriage.


This is probably very true.

I'd also like to add that I have a workaholic type sister who just got her third divorce and in each one she had an affair preceding the divorce. This is a girl who prides herself on her independence and would describe herself as being not needy. However from her own pattern it is clearly not true, she doesn't see it though. And she will never discuss relationships even with me, her sister. She acts like they are too stupid to even talk about, but then she always goes and finds herself in an affair and getting divorced. She has never admitted this, and I found out about the last two from my ex BIL's. She cannot perceive herself as having an affair.

These people can't for some reason intellectualize what they are doing.

She would in my opinion react to feelings, never admitting it though...the kind of feelings, highs, challenges she gets from the affair as blind as she is about them.

I agree that it might be very good to do what Muddling suggested and take more of a dominant personality behavior in what you need/expect/will or will not settle for. I'm not saying it as well as he did, but you get the drift. And not in an agressive manner but a manner that gives her the impression that she could very well lose you if she doesn't get back on the train.

Waywards react to feelings. This IS their mental framework as long as they are wayward, so you have to appeal to those feelings, not logic or intellectualizing with them.

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I think you have fallen into the trap of what John Gray calls "role reversal." This is when the husband is constantly wanting to talk about the relationship and his "feelings" and such (just like you) and the woman is more like a man and is shut down and doesn't want to talk feelings or relationship and just wants things to go on as is.

Deep down she "longs" to let go and feel like a woman, but she can't feel that from a man who appears needy and sensitive because she views that as weakness. This is how she subconsciously feels about you because you are constantly wanting to talk about the relationship and YOUR feelings and YOUR needs and such.

I have found two ways that work to cope with such a woman and situation.

1) Accept her just as she is. You may be trying to change someone into someone they are not. I have a friend who has a very independent(domineering) wife. People that meet them both just love him, but both men and women view her as a ****** and a loud mouth and can't stand her. They always wonder how he can put up with her. He seems so nice and she seems so direct and to the point and ******.

How does he make it work? He ACCEPTS her just the way she is. He is just laid back and lets her rants and bossy attitude go in one ear and out the other. He golfs, bowls, works hard and just goes on about his business. It is the OTHER PEOPLE who have the problem with her. He loves her and accepts her just as she is. He doesn't even try to change her or argue with her. (It's fruitless)

That's one way that works.

You seem to be having a problem accepting her for who she is and seem to be wanting and hoping she will change.(You have said before that she has always been this way) You will probably wait for the rest of your life if you expect that. Your best bet is to stop all emotional talk, (you are on your feminine side, which is a turnoff to an independent woman) and start to make more male friends and find a couple of outside interests of your own that she sees you looking forward to. Let her sit home while you are pursuing your own interests. This could possibly get her to come around somewhat.

Your second option is to give her a "crisis" of MAJOR proportions. Crisis is usually the catalyst for people to WANT to change. Most people keep doing the same old things they have always done UNTIL they face a crisis. This is when you have your greatest opportunity for her to see herself from YOUR eyes.

I know of at least three women on this site who I believe fit the type of woman that you are describing your wife to be. You may want to study their situations from start to finish...

1)MelodyLane (1st marriage)
2)Eav1967
3)2Long's wife

Eav is still reeling from her crisis.

At some point you really do have to ask yourself (and give yourself an honest answer) if this IS WHO SHE REALLY IS? AND.. Is THIS what I really really want?

You may be surprised how this type of woman reacts when you suddenly decide you are no longer going to concern yourself with a person who is like this and that you not only intend to do something about it but ARE NOW DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Trying to Plan A this type of woman is almost useless. I think Harley was hinting to you about that.

Your choice...

Accept her happily for who she is.
or
Decide this is not how you want to live and START LIVING.
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I think the best way to influence her in this situation is to present your own needs assertively. If you can present your needs in such a way that demonstrates your strength rather than neediness, she may realize that having needs is different than being needy. Model this and eventually it will take the stigma out of it.

I try - guess I'm still missing the mark.

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Again, I think this is about playing a different role and that means a drastic shift in priorities. It's not reasonable yet there is a certain significance to it. The question "you did it for him, why can't you for our marriage" must pop up in your mind a lot.

Yep

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She denies it to you probably because she's trying to convince herself. And the why behind all of this is really her issue.

Yes, and I believe she recognizes its an issue, but she usually just tries to bury it, hoping it will go away.

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I agree that it might be very good to do what Muddling suggested and take more of a dominant personality behavior in what you need/expect/will or will not settle for. I'm not saying it as well as he did, but you get the drift. And not in an agressive manner but a manner that gives her the impression that she could very well lose you if she doesn't get back on the train.

I do this quite a bit. Its hard for me to describe, but as soon as it seems to be meaningful, she trumps me with a take it or leave it offer. Which doesn't frustrate me or scare me, it just seems we are so close to a resolution one way or the other, I end up saying okay if you just need a little more time.

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I think you have fallen into the trap of what John Gray calls "role reversal." This is when the husband is constantly wanting to talk about the relationship and his "feelings" and such (just like you) and the woman is more like a man and is shut down and doesn't want to talk feelings or relationship and just wants things to go on as is.

We had fallen into this, but I recognized it. I really don't bring it up constantly. I "talk" much more about it on these boards than I do at home.

Deep down she "longs" to let go and feel like a woman, but she can't feel that from a man who appears needy and sensitive because she views that as weakness. This is how she subconsciously feels about you because you are constantly wanting to talk about the relationship and YOUR feelings and YOUR needs and such.

Its a good insight and believe me I know. I have worked very hard to break this. In fact early on she said, "I couldn't divorce you because I didn't think you could take care of yourself". She has told me she was wrong to think that, and I have proven that I can take care of myself just fine.

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You seem to be having a problem accepting her for who she is and seem to be wanting and hoping she will change.(You have said before that she has always been this way) You will probably wait for the rest of your life if you expect that. Your best bet is to stop all emotional talk, (you are on your feminine side, which is a turnoff to an independent woman) and start to make more male friends and find a couple of outside interests of your own that she sees you looking forward to. Let her sit home while you are pursuing your own interests. This could possibly get her to come around somewhat.

This is not the case. Actually this topic alludes to one of the things that make me most mad about all of this. Before the A, I accepted my FWW as exactly who she was. We POJA'd just about everything. We POJA'd ourselves into a detached M. The thought that runs through my mind is that we had a deal about what our M was going to be. Now, I've learned a lot, I know I had my faults, I know the M we agreed to have was less than ideal. But we were rolling along with it. We had a marriage that was more like a business partnership. And we both agreed to it. I knew I was sacrificing something, but I thought I was giving her something she wanted. I now know she felt she was sacrificing to give me something I wanted. Then she had the A and she broke the deal. At that time I realized that who I thought my FWW was, who I had accepted was not her at all. She was trying to be what she thought I thought she should be, and it was making her miserable. And the funny thing is, she had no idea what I thought she should be, because she wouldn't ask. I don't want her to change, I want her to be herself. I want to find out if we like each other.

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At some point you really do have to ask yourself (and give yourself an honest answer) if this IS WHO SHE REALLY IS? AND.. Is THIS what I really really want?

Don't know - Don't know who she is yet.

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Not a thing in the world to be scared of.

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rprynne Offline OP
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I debated about posting this, but I sure could use some advice. Last night FWW and I were talking about things. We were talking about the whole independent versus interdependent thing. She was basically saying she believes its better to be independent and she has no need for being interdependent. I was basically saying I think your in denial about that or you would not have had an A. Anyway, does this new info change things. Should I change what I'm doing?


Me 43 BH
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i think it is cuz she was touched that you did not want to wash your hands of her...

but i would ASK HER!!

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keepmovn4wrd posted:

“Accept her happily for who she is.

Or

Decide this is not how you want to live and START LIVING.”


Actually, this is called loving detachment.

Acceptance of another individual as who they are and self-improvement (i.e. living well) go hand-in-hand inside a marriage. It takes a certain level of understanding of who they really are, though. And that can take a while and can take considerable effort.

My personal recovery from FWW’s 10-year VLTA has been successful enough that I do indeed accept her for who she is: independent, controlling at times, irritable, self-centered. In fact, there are admirable aspects of all these traits, when taken in moderation and not as a doormat (never again).

Now, if she were to break NC we would D, in short order. But that will be accepting her as she is and living my life well too, IMO.

With prayers,


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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rprynne, why did she tell you?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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rprynne,

“I'm having a hard time coping with the thoughts of nearly half my M being affected by infidelity.”

You are not alone. There are a few of us around here whose marriages were adulterous for more than half their existence.

You will hear it said an A is an illusion.

For some of us the M was the illusion.

But, you can have a new M grounded in reality. But it is going to take a supreme effort from her. You cannot achieve it alone. You cannot even achieve it 50/50 or 80/20.

It must be 100/100.

Tell her I said so.

Otherwise, loving detachment is all that will save you from the loony bin.

With prayers,


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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