LostIntheWorld,

I do feel for you. You have likely been dealing with issues, not entirely of your own doing for some time now.

My first comment to you would be that if you are indeed a born-again believer, you are no longer either lost, nor should you be in the world.

Colossians 1:13 says, "For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,"

The verbiage Paul is using refers to the practice of the ancient world, wherein, the people who were from the conquered land were transported BODILY from their homes and taken into the kingdom of their conquerors. We still live here, but we are told to not be of the world. Paul also points out that we are now citizen of God's kingdom, though we are travelling abroad, as it were.

And in the words of the great hymn, "I once was lost, but now am found."

Secondly, you said you have read Dr Harley's books. I suggest that you be a little more careful to mix the teachings of those books with your "feelings" about what should or should not be given as advice. I KNOW that there is a disclaimer on this site about how the advice is not being given by professionals and I do realize that opinions may differ. However, if you choose to give advice on this or any other forum the advice you give should be based, at least in spirit, on the methods and teachings of Dr Harley.

If Dr Harley is right, and I believe he is, then those that have already saved their marriages using those methods really do likely know more of the day to day workings of recovery than those who have merely read the book. Myself included.

I do not mean to belittle you, your experiences or your motives. But you need to know that what the other poster was being told to do was exactly the right thing if he wishes to save his marriage. The fact that you took exception with it shows that you are still thinking like a WS yourself. The things he was told to do were the things that Dr Harley teaches, repeatedly, on this site, in his books and on his radio program.(M-F 10am - 1pm CST...end of plug)

To be recovered and restored, your thought process needs to be changed. You need to see what it is that is lacking inside of you, not your H.

This can be a place to meet like minded people and share anecdotes about marriage. But advice given here should reflect the principles of the founder, not personal beatitudes or the writings of Dr Phil...or any other feel-good pop-psychology pseudo-philosopher of the world at large.

Please don't leave in a huff. And please don't take this as a personal attack as that is not my intent. I would be more than willing to dialog, but felt that your opinions and interjections were muddying a situation, that having been in it myself, requires clear precise thoughts that are not easy to arrive at for someone who has just had their entire world smashed to bits by the person they love the most and whom they entrusted their very life to. You have to have been betrayed to to know what it is like.

I don't usually dispense 2x4s, but felt that you did not realize that you were even doing harm, though your motives may have been nothing but pure.

Please feel free to defend your position or take umbrance with what I have said, but try to be sure that you actually do know that the advice you are giving is based on that of Dr Harley.

Sorry if I have offended you. That was not my intent. I wished correction rather than chastisement.

Mark

Sorry, Mark....it's only me...Ace. Please check out My MR. ROMANCE response to Lost in the World. I'm praying for her, too.

No more time to post, but will read from work.

Thanks,
Ace

Loyal Customer Testimonial-----

*Comment from WW who has earned her "F."*

Simply put, Mark is right. Alph, Longhorn, Big K etc., they're right.

My M is intact. My kids have both their parents together under one roof. And it is because my H followed the principles of demanding/ensuring NC, planning for the children staying with him (contacting a lawyer), me leaving with "nada", but topping it off with a good, solid Plan A.

Had he not been checking up on me, there was a good likelihood I would've continued contact...Addicts don't give up their crack easily. I was foggy beyond belief...

I respect my H for not letting me just run off. I respect my H for seeing that I was plowing head first into a train wreck. I respect my H for having the strength to do what he did, because it was hard...to stick with me (and try to meet my ENs) while I went through withdrawal and depression and then the overwhelming sense of shame and guilt...but he has always been there. He wasn't a doormat, but he WAS a lighthouse.

And you know what (I have tears just thinking about it)...He still says I'm a good person. How about that? After what I put him through...I'm damaged and broken, but still good enough for him.

We would not be here, today, like this...if he had not handled my EA exactly the way that he did.

and now I'm a grateful, happy....

Mom

Mark,
Thank you for you post... i didnt see it until right now... I do understand all your perspectives and can see how in a great deal of cases it could be exactly what is needed... but for some reason what evo was saying it sounded exactly like my case... where there is NC, no need for lies or suspision.... my name "LITW" was set up a day after i had the ONS.... i am not lost and know with out a doubt that my sins have been washed away.... i was not trying to stray from Dr Harley's teachings because i too think that he has a lot of amazing information that my husband and I are working on too..... but for some reason it just seemed different with evo's case....

i take that back... it was afer i confessed and found this sight.... but was feeling horrible about the situation because of not fully repenting yet..... sorry memory loss sometimes kicks in....

LITW,

From the other thread:

“well there you have it..... i try to offer some advice and get bashed from four different husbands who have been hurt by their wives...”

I sure didn’t see any bashing over there. Perception is reality, though.

For my part, I wasn’t particularly thinking about you at all. I don’t know you well enough to come up with a good personalized bashing. A really good bashing is a work of art. I sign all mine.

I want evo to listen to the best advice, direct from the Harleys.

Platitudes are not advice.

Critical post d-day times call for extraordinary efforts. Most BH have to be pushed out of their comfort zone before they will plan something worthwhile and stick to it. Just like I had to be pushed. Pushing me did not take compassion, it didn’t even take 2x4s. It took 6x6’s, extra long and rough cut. The slivers help one stay focused.

MB methods make sense, once you see them working time after time, but they are not immediately intuitive.


“I know carry the traits of Entitled...Embittered...Embattled...Unsure of your own self worth...and Waiting for someone to make you happy..... “

I have no idea what traits you carry. You may be a Mother Theresa in disguise. My ESP isn’t working lately. However, I am happy to assume the best about you.


“wow this really make me want to try to help some other person out..... Thank you for being such a great source of advice for two young people who were looking for some good council in how to proceed in life! “


Don’t be so sensitive. You are doing fine. Listen as well as speak, that’s all you need to take away from this.

Hope to see you around, really.

With prayers,

thank you for your words Aphelion. I can understand that my ways may not be as on the "extraordinary effort" side, but i do know how i feel and some things looking back at my situation that could have prevented things from happening. I also understand that perhaps "my case" was not as extreme compared to most and I have learned a lot from reading a great deal of posts here... as i mentioned on Evo's thread... i dont talk/advise too many people and try to do my fair share of reading instead... this is because i have learned that more can be taken from listening than talking..... but for some reason i think that I must have read and/or felt Evo's situation wrong. It just seemed like it was the same thing i have been struggling with.
as far as the "traits" i now carry.... i was just quoting from what I was called... yes it did hurt. I did feel as if because i had a different perspective that everyone thought that Obviously I Must Still be A WS.... Everyone is intitled to their opinion and i have to accept that fact. But honestly all i wanted to do was help someone out.

LITW,

Repentance...What an amazing word.

The word repent comes from two words. One means "to think" or "to have a thought." The prefix, "re," of course means "again." So the word means, to think again, or to have a second thought.

We've all used the term "on second thought." As in, "I think I'll have a Pepsi. Wait! On second thought, make that a Diet Pepsi."

What this means is that we have second thoughts about the way we are going. When we ask for forgiveness, God tells us we need to "repent." We have been doing things our own way and God tells us that we need to change, not just what we are doing, but the way we think about things. We need to have a change, not in action only, but in the way we view the world. We need to begin seeing things God's way, and thinking the way He thinks.

As it applies to MB and infidelity, it means that a WS needs to stop thinking about their OWN viewpoint and begin thinking in an entirely new way about their own issues. As long as a WS is viewing life from the perspective of "what do I want," and "how do I feel," in other words, "what's in it for me," they are missing the point of what their BS needs to begin to forgive. Because, just as God requires a paradigm shift in the way we view things, a BS needs to know that the way the WS was thinking leading up to and throughout their A has changed in a way that precludes the possibility that it will ever happen again.

God forgives us when we confess our wrong doing AND our wrong thinking and attitudes and begin to rely on Him for our world view and our view of life. In the same way, for a BS to forgive, requires that the WS give up his/her own ways and begins to think from a whole new perspective.

Just as God requires confession, not of a generic confession as in "I have sinned," but a heartfelt admission of wrong doing and wrong thinking and wrong attitudes, a BS may require confession, not just of "I screwed up. I'm sorry, get over it," but true and honest confession that includes enough details that the BS can judge for themselves as to the current state of the WS thinking, so that trust can again be given. Until the BS knows that the WS is no longer thinking in that self-justifying, self-entitling, fog-hidden way that led to the affair in the first place, forgiveness cannot be granted. The couple may move on, but the ledger is not wiped clean and a renewed marriage cannot exist.

Even when my W admitted her past affairs, years ago, as part of the testimony she was giving while on a mission trip to Romania within two years of the fall of the Communists, her "confession" was filled with what I know now to be self-justification statements. Her "reasons" for the A had to do with me and what I did or did not do. She admitted she was wrong, but continued to choose to believe that her actions were solely a response to my actions. To be honest, if I'd known then what I know now about infidelity, we'd never have had a Dday in 2006, because our marriage would have ended years ago.

But since I know what it will take for me to bestow complete total forgiveness, even though her latest A was very short and "only" an EA, I am requiring much more in order to move forward.

It all starts with an attitude. When God calls people "stiff necked" He means that they are proud and not willing to be humble before him.

Sin, including adultery, is not only an action, it is an attitude. It is a direction rather than a place. I have more I can say about this, but better stop here for now.

Mark

Mark, everything you are saying I agree with. I do understand that actions speak louder than words... that i need to see how my BH is feeling and meet his needs... i do know this.... but i am not sure why you are telling me this? Perhaps the way i am writting things is giving you the impression that "it's all about me" but i can tell you that that is not the case.

LITW,

I may have completely misread what you had posted. To be fair to you, I am going to go back and re-read your posts, both on your own thread and elsewhere.

Since I am at work right now, and happen to be busier than a one-legged soccer player at the moment, I will come back later. I just wanted you to know that I did read your reply and I wanted to let you know that I had.

Mark

thank you... i will look forward to your next post.

LITW,

I’ve gone back and read all of your posts as of 10:45pm last night, beginning with the thread where I first saw your posts, but also going back to the ones from before that.

The things I am going to point out are going to be in order that I come to them, not in the order by date and time you posted them.

I first encountered your name on Evo’s thread. I had been avoiding getting involved in his thread at all, because frankly, I have enough on my plate right now. I have this tendency to get too personally involved in situations where I empathize heavily with the BS who, often, has stumbled in by accident and is feeling completely hopeless.

Your first couple of replies to him actually made me smile. It isn’t how I would generally start a post on this site, but I made a few of assumptions, that maybe were wrong. First thing I observed was that you were new to the site. I smiled knowing full well that if you were here for any length of time beyond a week or two, your entire world was about to be shaken. I knew this because it happens to all of us in one way or another. When it happens, we either turn and leave or dig into what is here for the taking and have a hard time staying away.

The second thing I assumed, probably incorrectly, was that you were likely also fairly new in your faith. Having been around for a while (I was saved in 1963 when I was 11), I have seen those that have only recently come to faith in Christ get all on fire and try to save the entire world in short order. I know I tried it. I may be all wrong on that point, but it was what I was thinking from first observation.

I also figured that you must be rather young, not based on what you were saying, but because of your style of saying it. Keep in mind I have a daughter older than you are by a few years. So when I think back to when my W and I had been married 7 years, I know how old I really am.

Your next post to him troubled me somewhat. He had said he was selling his house and you told him it was probably the best idea. You did later rescind that advice, but since things here sometimes take days to develop, he might have had a buyer before he got back to read again. I disagreed with your advice, knowing that he should not be making that decision based on his feelings regarding his W’s A (Whether physical or emotional, it was still an affair) so soon after discovery.

Your 4th post is what really set my teeth on edge. You took Longhorn to task for his signature line that contains thread about spying and the like. Your response to him was exactly what a WS would say. It was right from the typical WS script.

When people began to point out that your advice was not promoting MB standards,several posts later, your response seemed to be more typical foggy self entitlement blah-blah-blah (as someone around here is fond of saying).

It was at that point I decided to go find your thread and read up a little to try to gain some perspective. I was convinced that LA had your sitch well in hand and decided to not get involved, though to be honest, what you were posting on your own thread convinced me even more that my earlier assumptions were correct

If you will stick around and agree to let me show you what I’m referring to in your posts, I would love to continue this thread. If, however, you wish me to simply leave you alone, I am willing to do that also.

Just be forewarned that I will jump into any thread you are involved in if I see advice directly antithetical to Dr Harley’s principle being offered. I would do this no matter who the poster was, and I’m not even the “expert” here. On the other hand, I will not be actively seeking you out, only bumping into you by accident, as it were.

I figure I could still be making wrong assumptions, but I can show you what those assumptions are based on, by pointing to specific things you said and showing why it made me think that way.

I will look for any reply from you when I get up in the morning. I figure I have two more nights of being able to be here before I go into surgery on Friday. After that, I may be able to get a laptop to work in the hospital or maybe not. I will be home in about a week, but may not be up and around for a few days after that. If we start this now it could be 2 weeks before I can get back to it.

On the other hand, my graft might heal so quickly that they write research papers about it and I could be home Monday…Nah, that ain’t likely to happen, so figure on a week to prepare for my return as of Friday morning.

Mark

Mark,
First let me say that I appreciate your insight and am willing to learn and correct any wrong thinkings I do have. I understand that I am young and have not lived or experianced life as long as others and I do value insights to help me on my path.
Second, I want you to know that I will be praying for you as you go into surgery. I will be praying for fast healing and that God is with you and your family through this time. I will be patient waiting for a response after friday knowing the circumstances around why. I appreciate you sharing this information with me so I do not wonder what happened or what I said to upset you.
LA has been giving me wonderful information and I have gone back and re-read her posts numerous times just trying to allow everything to sink in.
Your first concern was about the house situation.... this i did realize was not a good piece of advise and re-stated later as you noted. My reasoning behind saying this at first was that i was thinking by not having the stress of extra debt maybe this could help both of them to focus on the relationship rather than financial difficulties... I do know that one of the main reasons couples fight do have to do with money... and that was my though proccess behind that comment (but did realize it was not necessary).
The comment to Longhorn was more from a personal stand point. I do believe that it is important to be COMPLETELY honest and open in a marriage. I do believe that communication is vital for a realationship to survive, but when i read that i put myself into that other womens shoes looking at it as if she were innocent. I can understand what all of you are saying, but i know that if i were completely innocent and found out that my husband was trying to "catch me" doing something i wasnt... it would break my heart (though it would have been all my fault for straying in the first place). My personal situation was not a typical one so it is hard for me to accept some of the extreme tactics, but i can see where they need to come in.
I did get defensive towards the middle, but that was due again to how i would be feeling if i were in the shoes of the women... I should have been trying to be in the BS shoes to understand better from each of your perspectives.
I truly hope that you will give Evo some more insight, because i really do feel for him, but dont want to stray him in the wrong direction. I do feel horrible about that and am trying to give good advice. I do not plan to slump away or disappear as I am determined and want to become as knowedgable as possible.
you said "I figure I could still be making wrong assumptions, but I can show you what those assumptions are based on, by pointing to specific things you said and showing why it made me think that way." I would love to go deeper into this as I do believe that some wrong assumptions are being made.
Yes, I was a WS. Yes, I still am struggling in my marriage. Yes, I want to make it work. Yes, I am here to gain insight.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
LITW

LITW,

I'm at work and don't have a Lot of time right now, but I am glad you are still here and willing to continue this dialog.

I too feel for Evo and other BSs. I also feel for WSs as I know that the pain THEY feel is also real. I have chosen to stay out of his sitch, mainly because a couple of the best there are at this were already advising him. I also know that I may be MIA for a week or more and want others to be up to date on what he is going through so that I don't abandon him just when he finds something that causes him to need immediate help, because that will happen. It happens to every BS that comes here seeking help to save their M.


I understand your assumption of innocence. I also understand your premise of being spied on being a big love buster, if she is indeed innocent. The problem is that the danger to the marriage isn't from searching for the truth, it comes from the lying, secret fantasy life and dishonesty associated with it.

In Evo's case, his wife is speaking and acting in ways that are indicative of continued contact with the OM. Whether that contact ever became physical matters not one bit. When questioned during an active affair, a WS almost never admits to what they are doing. So asking and taking their word for it are not a valid option, since they will deny they are doing anything wrong.

In the case of an EA, it is even easier for a WS to deny any wrong doing because they have already justified the relationship in their own mind, likely by saying they are "just friends." But if it is purely platonic, and more to the point completely "pure" at its base level, why does it need to be hidden from their S?

Think of it as driving down the road and coming to a safety check roadblock. The police are looking for drunk drivers, those with existing warrants and vehicles that may have issues that compromise the safety of operation. If you have no outstanding warrants, a valid drivers license, a safe vehicle and haven't been drinking, it is only a mild inconvenience. If you are driving on a suspended license, failed to show up for your last DUI court date, are an escaped felon and just killed a bottle of Tennessee's finest, you might not want the cops stopping you.

Bottom line, nothing to hide equals nothing to fear.

As for the respect part of the equation, an A is one of the most disrespectful things a person can do. It show no respect for the BS, none for the relationship, none for the vows of marriage, none at all for the ordinances of God and even none for oneself. So, again, it is because of respecting my wedding vows that I may want to know what my wife is doing at any give point in time and if she is doing nothing wrong, it builds further respect for her in my eyes. The only disrespect that can come from it, is if she is having an A, in which case, the disrespect is on her, not me.

And as for your sitch not being typical, I would suggest that it was patently typical. It requires time in looking at other people's As to see that the norm is pretty standard fair. If you look at some of the first few posts by BSs on this site, you will find that most of the early days are spent trying to make them see that, no matter how different it seems in your own case, the basics and most of the details are exactly the same. Many a BS figure that out about the time of first exposure. The person advising them tells them to expose the A and then the WS will say and do the following things...it gets spelled out, often word for word as to what their WS says when they find the secret has been revealed.

That is precisely why MB principles work. Because all As are based on the same lies and deceit and all WSs use the same methods to justify and rationalize what they are doing. When you are lost in the fog, you don't know you are lost, because all you can see is the fog.

I'd better do some work before they think I'm in a coma or something.

I'll be back later with more.

Blessings to you and thanks for the prayers. It isn't possible to have too many people praying for you.

Mark

I can understand all you are saying but the above... i am not trying to defend what I did at all because I know it was wrong, but I have no attachment to this person.... i didnt even know who the guy was..... I was hurting really bad and decided to be extremely stupid... i understand that some of my responses are typical of that of a WS, but is it possible it could be from something else? I am confused about the way I feel and dont want to feel this way so I do hope you will continue with your insights to me.

LITW,

I wrote you a rather lengthy post before I left work. Unfortunately, when I hit <Continue> it vanished into cyberspace. I'm going to rethink it before I try again. So I will post something in the morning.

BTW, I did see your latest posts on Evo's thread as well as you own today. You are moving in the right direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mark

Quick Threadjack......to both Mark and LITW:

Mark, please see my post to you on "WS: I SAID I'M SORRY" thread....no time to repost here and it would be a real TJ if I did.

LITW, did you see my response to your comments after the MR. ROMANCE saga? Mark also responded after I answered your comments about marriage choices and God's approval. Glad you're helping others and open to challenges....you're heart of compassion is inspiring. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Un-Quick-Threadjack....Sorry, sort of! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LITW,

G'morning. Let's see how the old dial-up is working today...

The reason I said your sitch was typical was because the way you two got to the point of your ONS was because of the same dynamic involved in so many cases.

Since you have read HN/HN I will skip that whole explanation of the LB$, etc. Suffice it to say you (and likely your H) had reached a state of withdrawal. You were no longer connected to each other. You no longer felt any bond.

How and why you ended up in a ONS doesn't matter so much as understanding the way to avoid the same series of events that led up to it in the first place. When you give a reason for it, what is your normal mind set? By that I mean do you see it as a weakness on your part or do you feel you must tie it somehow to something your H did or did not do?

What you do, you own. What he does is entirely his. You cannot make him do anything and he does not cause you to do anything. Your feelings and your actions are entirely your own. But yes, the things he does can trigger you to have a certain response, based on past history and the list of things that have happened to you in your life. This is what Dr H talks about as far as instincts and habits.

When we feel threatened, we instinctively defend ourselves. But When we behave a specific way in response to our spouse's action, or in this case likely inaction, it is generally out of habit. There are habits that enhance the R and habits that stress it. You can't really call them good or bad habits, since what may be a great habit in some cases, could be destructive within a M. For example, if you are in combat, a certain sense of detachment to all the carnage may be beneficial. If you take each death in the battle personally, you will be paralyzed and unable to fight effectively. However, within a marital conflict over socks that didn't get picked up or what to have for dinner, detachment probably will not do you much good.

If you don't feel love for your H, you likely also don't feel loved by him. That's not to say that you don't know he loves you, but knowing and feeling are two different things. He may be doing loving things but not the right loving things and so you LB$ is empty or at least below the romantic threshold. I'm assuming you both know each other's top ENs, but how are you each trying to meet them.

Do you spend time with each other just doing fun things? Dr H's 15 hours per week, remember, is a minimum and that for an already healthy M. This must be time when you are meeting each other's ENs. You cannot be problem solving and discussing the R. R talk needs to be scheduled, too, but is not part of this 15 hours. Have you both filled out the REI questionnaire? If nothing else, completing it together should brings a few laughs. Rate from -3 to +3...

Watching paint dry

Watching grass grow

Field hockey (watching)

OK. It isn't that silly, but a few of them are pretty close on my list and my W only knows the word 'knit' without the 'K' and attached to the word 'pick'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok, bad joke...

As an experiment try this. Fake it till you make it. If you were madly in love with your H, how would it be different? What things woukld you do? How, specifically, would you act?

And if he were the perfect H, how would he act?

You can only control your actions, not his. So you act without requiring him to act, first or in response. Don't make it a case of giving to get or doing anything in order to get a certain response. You do the things that meet his ENs. Fill his LB$ till it explodes. But remember, you must do things to meet HIS needs, not things you want done to meet your own. If you need a touch and he needs to hear words of affirmation, speak the words. If he gives you a loving touch, great, but if not, don't seek it out on your own.

If you do this for a while and spend 15 hours per week simply trying to fill his LB$ he will either be so loving toward you that you will have to chase him away or he will remain aloof, in which case, he might need a 2x4 applied in the appropriate manner. Just remember, you can't apply the 2x4.

My guess is, that if you actively seek to meet his ENs, when his LB$ reaches a certain point, he will begin to meet your ENs and you WILL begin to feel love for your H once more.

Only God loves unconditionally. He loved us first. We only feel love when we have a decent LB$ balance. Our feelings are not agape, but eros, in the Greek of the New Testament. (actually, that's the best I can do without the Greek character set, and I'm not going to try to go there today.)

I'm running late for work. I have to get going, but let me leave you with this for now.

Jer 29:11
Psalm 5:11 & 12
Proverbs 14:22

Blessings to both of you. It isn't too late as long as you can still see the green side of the grass. You can have a M that is so great it will knock your socks off. It just doesn't happen by itself. And yes, I know you know that already. I just needed to hear myself say it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mark

Mark, ....I have a comment now that will not commit a thread jack.......

Your list, my pain......your passion! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, add fishing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> to your knitting, field hockey, paint grow, grass drying....or whatever...list.....no time to edit..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And FAKE IT TIL YA MAKE IT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ....like I tried to do for 30+ years.....but it did work for me at least! And like I mentioned earlier....that it should not take 30 years for you, Lost since you've found MB and are open to change.

My 2 cents worth sans TJ....gotta to go work but wish I could stay here and read your whole thread .....and post all day..... but gotta run!

Ace

first.... AIB.... Yes i did read your post under MR. ROMANCE. Thank you. I just didnt respond there because I saw that you have been here and I did not want to be posting in too many areas.

Mark,
okay where do I start.... it would be nice if i could change the color of the font to make it easier to view the difference between your comments and mine. oh well.....

YOU: The reason I said your sitch was typical was because the way you two got to the point of your ONS was because of the same dynamic involved in so many cases.

ME: okay.. that does make sense... if I take that perspective I can understand what you are saying.

YOU: How and why you ended up in a ONS doesn't matter so much as understanding the way to avoid the same series of events that led up to it in the first place. When you give a reason for it, what is your normal mind set? By that I mean do you see it as a weakness on your part or do you feel you must tie it somehow to something your H did or did not do?

ME: I would love to point fingers and say it was him, but I know it was me... all the way. Sure part of the reason was i felt neglected,not wanted, not desired but bottom line I know that only I control what I do. If asked why i did it.. my first response would be that I was trying to get a reaction out of my H. But though that may be my initial response if i dig deeper into they why... it is because i felt and still feel that if my husband doesnt want me or desire me that i obviously must not be anything special... and if im not anything special and somebody want me... well then fine lets do it.... bottom line I think it goes to the lack of respect I carry for myself.... WOW i think that is the first time I ever really said/wrote that... yikes!

YOU: If you don't feel love for your H, you likely also don't feel loved by him.That's not to say that you don't know he loves you, but knowing and feeling are two different things.

ME: You may have hit it on the head with this one.

YOU: I'm assuming you both know each other's top ENs, but how are you each trying to meet them. Do you spend time with each other just doing fun things? Dr H's 15 hours per week, remember, is a minimum and that for an already healthy M.

ME: We try to spend more than the 15 hours a week together, but most of the time i think that we both forget that time is supposed to be spent filling each other EN's

YOU: Have you both filled out the REI questionnaire? If nothing else, completing it together should brings a few laughs. Rate from -3 to +3...

ME: I have filled it out and showed it to him, but he still has not filled his out and he really did seem that interested in my information. My top EN is recreation activities (yes i know that is typically a male one), but to him RA is watching tv......

YOU: As an experiment try this. Fake it till you make it.

ME: I would have an extremely hard time doing this... I am very expressive even when I am not saying anything my face or body says a thousand words and doesnt lie.... (It really sucks!)

YOU: If you were madly in love with your H, how would it be different?

ME: I guess i would want to spend more time with him.

YOU: What things woukld you do? How, specifically, would you act?

ME: Spending more time with him and trying to get his attention. I used to do that all the time, but kept on being told that I am too needy and an attention hog.... I guess that can be part of the reason that i dont want attention any more.

YOU: And if he were the perfect H, how would he act?

ME: He would want me, desire me, want to play and goof off

YOU: You can only control your actions, not his. So you act without requiring him to act, first or in response. Don't make it a case of giving to get or doing anything in order to get a certain response. You do the things that meet his ENs. Fill his LB$ till it explodes. But remember, you must do things to meet HIS needs, not things you want done to meet your own. If you need a touch and he needs to hear words of affirmation, speak the words. If he gives you a loving touch, great, but if not, don't seek it out on your own.

ME: I completely understand.... but i dont want his touch anymore... it doesnt feel loving or sincere.

YOU: If you do this for a while and spend 15 hours per week simply trying to fill his LB$ he will either be so loving toward you that you will have to chase him away or he will remain aloof, in which case, he might need a 2x4 applied in the appropriate manner. Just remember, you can't apply the 2x4.

ME: Can it be a 6x6 and do you want to do it?

YOU: My guess is, that if you actively seek to meet his ENs, when his LB$ reaches a certain point, he will begin to meet your ENs and you WILL begin to feel love for your H once more.

ME: it is worth a shot.... what do i have to loose right?!?

YOU: It isn't too late as long as you can still see the green side of the grass. You can have a M that is so great it will knock your socks off.

ME: Well it may need some fertalizer.....

Thank you for your words of wisdom.... I really appreciate them.

LITW