LostIntheWorld,
I do feel for you. You have likely been dealing with issues, not entirely of your own doing for some time now.
My first comment to you would be that if you are indeed a born-again believer, you are no longer either lost, nor should you be in the world.
Colossians 1:13 says, "For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,"
The verbiage Paul is using refers to the practice of the ancient world, wherein, the people who were from the conquered land were transported BODILY from their homes and taken into the kingdom of their conquerors. We still live here, but we are told to not be of the world. Paul also points out that we are now citizen of God's kingdom, though we are travelling abroad, as it were.
And in the words of the great hymn, "I once was lost, but now am found."
Secondly, you said you have read Dr Harley's books. I suggest that you be a little more careful to mix the teachings of those books with your "feelings" about what should or should not be given as advice. I KNOW that there is a disclaimer on this site about how the advice is not being given by professionals and I do realize that opinions may differ. However, if you choose to give advice on this or any other forum the advice you give should be based, at least in spirit, on the methods and teachings of Dr Harley.
If Dr Harley is right, and I believe he is, then those that have already saved their marriages using those methods really do likely know more of the day to day workings of recovery than those who have merely read the book. Myself included.
I do not mean to belittle you, your experiences or your motives. But you need to know that what the other poster was being told to do was exactly the right thing if he wishes to save his marriage. The fact that you took exception with it shows that you are still thinking like a WS yourself. The things he was told to do were the things that Dr Harley teaches, repeatedly, on this site, in his books and on his radio program.(M-F 10am - 1pm CST...end of plug)
To be recovered and restored, your thought process needs to be changed. You need to see what it is that is lacking inside of you, not your H.
This can be a place to meet like minded people and share anecdotes about marriage. But advice given here should reflect the principles of the founder, not personal beatitudes or the writings of Dr Phil...or any other feel-good pop-psychology pseudo-philosopher of the world at large.
Please don't leave in a huff. And please don't take this as a personal attack as that is not my intent. I would be more than willing to dialog, but felt that your opinions and interjections were muddying a situation, that having been in it myself, requires clear precise thoughts that are not easy to arrive at for someone who has just had their entire world smashed to bits by the person they love the most and whom they entrusted their very life to. You have to have been betrayed to to know what it is like.
I don't usually dispense 2x4s, but felt that you did not realize that you were even doing harm, though your motives may have been nothing but pure.
Please feel free to defend your position or take umbrance with what I have said, but try to be sure that you actually do know that the advice you are giving is based on that of Dr Harley.
Sorry if I have offended you. That was not my intent. I wished correction rather than chastisement.
Mark
Sorry, Mark....it's only me...Ace. Please check out My MR. ROMANCE response to Lost in the World. I'm praying for her, too.
No more time to post, but will read from work.
Thanks,
Ace
Loyal Customer Testimonial-----
*Comment from WW who has earned her "F."*
Simply put, Mark is right. Alph, Longhorn, Big K etc., they're right.
My M is intact. My kids have both their parents together under one roof. And it is because my H followed the principles of demanding/ensuring NC, planning for the children staying with him (contacting a lawyer), me leaving with "nada", but topping it off with a good, solid Plan A.
Had he not been checking up on me, there was a good likelihood I would've continued contact...Addicts don't give up their crack easily. I was foggy beyond belief...
I respect my H for not letting me just run off. I respect my H for seeing that I was plowing head first into a train wreck. I respect my H for having the strength to do what he did, because it was hard...to stick with me (and try to meet my ENs) while I went through withdrawal and depression and then the overwhelming sense of shame and guilt...but he has always been there. He wasn't a doormat, but he WAS a lighthouse.
And you know what (I have tears just thinking about it)...He still says I'm a good person. How about that? After what I put him through...I'm damaged and broken, but still good enough for him.
We would not be here, today, like this...if he had not handled my EA exactly the way that he did.
and now I'm a grateful, happy....
Mom
Mark,
Thank you for you post... i didnt see it until right now... I do understand all your perspectives and can see how in a great deal of cases it could be exactly what is needed... but for some reason what evo was saying it sounded exactly like my case... where there is NC, no need for lies or suspision.... my name "LITW" was set up a day after i had the ONS.... i am not lost and know with out a doubt that my sins have been washed away.... i was not trying to stray from Dr Harley's teachings because i too think that he has a lot of amazing information that my husband and I are working on too..... but for some reason it just seemed different with evo's case....
my name "LITW" was set up a day after i had the ONS
i take that back... it was afer i confessed and found this sight.... but was feeling horrible about the situation because of not fully repenting yet..... sorry memory loss sometimes kicks in....
LITW,
From the other thread:
“well there you have it..... i try to offer some advice and get bashed from four different husbands who have been hurt by their wives...”
I sure didn’t see any bashing over there. Perception is reality, though.
For my part, I wasn’t particularly thinking about you at all. I don’t know you well enough to come up with a good personalized bashing. A really good bashing is a work of art. I sign all mine.
I want evo to listen to the best advice, direct from the Harleys.
Platitudes are not advice.
Critical post d-day times call for extraordinary efforts. Most BH have to be pushed out of their comfort zone before they will plan something worthwhile and stick to it. Just like I had to be pushed. Pushing me did not take compassion, it didn’t even take 2x4s. It took 6x6’s, extra long and rough cut. The slivers help one stay focused.
MB methods make sense, once you see them working time after time, but they are not immediately intuitive.
“I know carry the traits of Entitled...Embittered...Embattled...Unsure of your own self worth...and Waiting for someone to make you happy..... “
I have no idea what traits you carry. You may be a Mother Theresa in disguise. My ESP isn’t working lately. However, I am happy to assume the best about you.
“wow this really make me want to try to help some other person out..... Thank you for being such a great source of advice for two young people who were looking for some good council in how to proceed in life! “
Don’t be so sensitive. You are doing fine. Listen as well as speak, that’s all you need to take away from this.
Hope to see you around, really.
With prayers,
thank you for your words Aphelion. I can understand that my ways may not be as on the "extraordinary effort" side, but i do know how i feel and some things looking back at my situation that could have prevented things from happening. I also understand that perhaps "my case" was not as extreme compared to most and I have learned a lot from reading a great deal of posts here... as i mentioned on Evo's thread... i dont talk/advise too many people and try to do my fair share of reading instead... this is because i have learned that more can be taken from listening than talking..... but for some reason i think that I must have read and/or felt Evo's situation wrong. It just seemed like it was the same thing i have been struggling with.
as far as the "traits" i now carry.... i was just quoting from what I was called... yes it did hurt. I did feel as if because i had a different perspective that everyone thought that Obviously I Must Still be A WS.... Everyone is intitled to their opinion and i have to accept that fact. But honestly all i wanted to do was help someone out.
LITW,
Repentance...What an amazing word.
The word repent comes from two words. One means "to think" or "to have a thought." The prefix, "re," of course means "again." So the word means, to think again, or to have a second thought.
We've all used the term "on second thought." As in, "I think I'll have a Pepsi. Wait! On second thought, make that a Diet Pepsi."
What this means is that we have second thoughts about the way we are going. When we ask for forgiveness, God tells us we need to "repent." We have been doing things our own way and God tells us that we need to change, not just what we are doing, but the way we think about things. We need to have a change, not in action only, but in the way we view the world. We need to begin seeing things God's way, and thinking the way He thinks.
As it applies to MB and infidelity, it means that a WS needs to stop thinking about their OWN viewpoint and begin thinking in an entirely new way about their own issues. As long as a WS is viewing life from the perspective of "what do I want," and "how do I feel," in other words, "what's in it for me," they are missing the point of what their BS needs to begin to forgive. Because, just as God requires a paradigm shift in the way we view things, a BS needs to know that the way the WS was thinking leading up to and throughout their A has changed in a way that precludes the possibility that it will ever happen again.
God forgives us when we confess our wrong doing AND our wrong thinking and attitudes and begin to rely on Him for our world view and our view of life. In the same way, for a BS to forgive, requires that the WS give up his/her own ways and begins to think from a whole new perspective.
Just as God requires confession, not of a generic confession as in "I have sinned," but a heartfelt admission of wrong doing and wrong thinking and wrong attitudes, a BS may require confession, not just of "I screwed up. I'm sorry, get over it," but true and honest confession that includes enough details that the BS can judge for themselves as to the current state of the WS thinking, so that trust can again be given. Until the BS knows that the WS is no longer thinking in that self-justifying, self-entitling, fog-hidden way that led to the affair in the first place, forgiveness cannot be granted. The couple may move on, but the ledger is not wiped clean and a renewed marriage cannot exist.
Even when my W admitted her past affairs, years ago, as part of the testimony she was giving while on a mission trip to Romania within two years of the fall of the Communists, her "confession" was filled with what I know now to be self-justification statements. Her "reasons" for the A had to do with me and what I did or did not do. She admitted she was wrong, but continued to choose to believe that her actions were solely a response to my actions. To be honest, if I'd known then what I know now about infidelity, we'd never have had a Dday in 2006, because our marriage would have ended years ago.
But since I know what it will take for me to bestow complete total forgiveness, even though her latest A was very short and "only" an EA, I am requiring much more in order to move forward.
It all starts with an attitude. When God calls people "stiff necked" He means that they are proud and not willing to be humble before him.
Sin, including adultery, is not only an action, it is an attitude. It is a direction rather than a place. I have more I can say about this, but better stop here for now.
Mark
Mark, everything you are saying I agree with. I do understand that actions speak louder than words... that i need to see how my BH is feeling and meet his needs... i do know this.... but i am not sure why you are telling me this? Perhaps the way i am writting things is giving you the impression that "it's all about me" but i can tell you that that is not the case.
LITW,
I may have completely misread what you had posted. To be fair to you, I am going to go back and re-read your posts, both on your own thread and elsewhere.
Since I am at work right now, and happen to be busier than a one-legged soccer player at the moment, I will come back later. I just wanted you to know that I did read your reply and I wanted to let you know that I had.
Mark
thank you... i will look forward to your next post.
LITW,
I’ve gone back and read all of your posts as of 10:45pm last night, beginning with the thread where I first saw your posts, but also going back to the ones from before that.
The things I am going to point out are going to be in order that I come to them, not in the order by date and time you posted them.
I first encountered your name on Evo’s thread. I had been avoiding getting involved in his thread at all, because frankly, I have enough on my plate right now. I have this tendency to get too personally involved in situations where I empathize heavily with the BS who, often, has stumbled in by accident and is feeling completely hopeless.
Your first couple of replies to him actually made me smile. It isn’t how I would generally start a post on this site, but I made a few of assumptions, that maybe were wrong. First thing I observed was that you were new to the site. I smiled knowing full well that if you were here for any length of time beyond a week or two, your entire world was about to be shaken. I knew this because it happens to all of us in one way or another. When it happens, we either turn and leave or dig into what is here for the taking and have a hard time staying away.
The second thing I assumed, probably incorrectly, was that you were likely also fairly new in your faith. Having been around for a while (I was saved in 1963 when I was 11), I have seen those that have only recently come to faith in Christ get all on fire and try to save the entire world in short order. I know I tried it. I may be all wrong on that point, but it was what I was thinking from first observation.
I also figured that you must be rather young, not based on what you were saying, but because of your style of saying it. Keep in mind I have a daughter older than you are by a few years. So when I think back to when my W and I had been married 7 years, I know how old I really am.
Your next post to him troubled me somewhat. He had said he was selling his house and you told him it was probably the best idea. You did later rescind that advice, but since things here sometimes take days to develop, he might have had a buyer before he got back to read again. I disagreed with your advice, knowing that he should not be making that decision based on his feelings regarding his W’s A (Whether physical or emotional, it was still an affair) so soon after discovery.
Your 4th post is what really set my teeth on edge. You took Longhorn to task for his signature line that contains thread about spying and the like. Your response to him was exactly what a WS would say. It was right from the typical WS script.
When people began to point out that your advice was not promoting MB standards,several posts later, your response seemed to be more typical foggy self entitlement blah-blah-blah (as someone around here is fond of saying).
It was at that point I decided to go find your thread and read up a little to try to gain some perspective. I was convinced that LA had your sitch well in hand and decided to not get involved, though to be honest, what you were posting on your own thread convinced me even more that my earlier assumptions were correct
If you will stick around and agree to let me show you what I’m referring to in your posts, I would love to continue this thread. If, however, you wish me to simply leave you alone, I am willing to do that also.
Just be forewarned that I will jump into any thread you are involved in if I see advice directly antithetical to Dr Harley’s principle being offered. I would do this no matter who the poster was, and I’m not even the “expert” here. On the other hand, I will not be actively seeking you out, only bumping into you by accident, as it were.
I figure I could still be making wrong assumptions, but I can show you what those assumptions are based on, by pointing to specific things you said and showing why it made me think that way.
I will look for any reply from you when I get up in the morning. I figure I have two more nights of being able to be here before I go into surgery on Friday. After that, I may be able to get a laptop to work in the hospital or maybe not. I will be home in about a week, but may not be up and around for a few days after that. If we start this now it could be 2 weeks before I can get back to it.
On the other hand, my graft might heal so quickly that they write research papers about it and I could be home Monday…Nah, that ain’t likely to happen, so figure on a week to prepare for my return as of Friday morning.
Mark
Mark,
First let me say that I appreciate your insight and am willing to learn and correct any wrong thinkings I do have. I understand that I am young and have not lived or experianced life as long as others and I do value insights to help me on my path.
Second, I want you to know that I will be praying for you as you go into surgery. I will be praying for fast healing and that God is with you and your family through this time. I will be patient waiting for a response after friday knowing the circumstances around why. I appreciate you sharing this information with me so I do not wonder what happened or what I said to upset you.
LA has been giving me wonderful information and I have gone back and re-read her posts numerous times just trying to allow everything to sink in.
Your first concern was about the house situation.... this i did realize was not a good piece of advise and re-stated later as you noted. My reasoning behind saying this at first was that i was thinking by not having the stress of extra debt maybe this could help both of them to focus on the relationship rather than financial difficulties... I do know that one of the main reasons couples fight do have to do with money... and that was my though proccess behind that comment (but did realize it was not necessary).
The comment to Longhorn was more from a personal stand point. I do believe that it is important to be COMPLETELY honest and open in a marriage. I do believe that communication is vital for a realationship to survive, but when i read that i put myself into that other womens shoes looking at it as if she were innocent. I can understand what all of you are saying, but i know that if i were completely innocent and found out that my husband was trying to "catch me" doing something i wasnt... it would break my heart (though it would have been all my fault for straying in the first place). My personal situation was not a typical one so it is hard for me to accept some of the extreme tactics, but i can see where they need to come in.
I did get defensive towards the middle, but that was due again to how i would be feeling if i were in the shoes of the women... I should have been trying to be in the BS shoes to understand better from each of your perspectives.
I truly hope that you will give Evo some more insight, because i really do feel for him, but dont want to stray him in the wrong direction. I do feel horrible about that and am trying to give good advice. I do not plan to slump away or disappear as I am determined and want to become as knowedgable as possible.
you said "I figure I could still be making wrong assumptions, but I can show you what those assumptions are based on, by pointing to specific things you said and showing why it made me think that way." I would love to go deeper into this as I do believe that some wrong assumptions are being made.
Yes, I was a WS. Yes, I still am struggling in my marriage. Yes, I want to make it work. Yes, I am here to gain insight.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
LITW
LITW,
I'm at work and don't have a Lot of time right now, but I am glad you are still here and willing to continue this dialog.
I too feel for Evo and other BSs. I also feel for WSs as I know that the pain THEY feel is also real. I have chosen to stay out of his sitch, mainly because a couple of the best there are at this were already advising him. I also know that I may be MIA for a week or more and want others to be up to date on what he is going through so that I don't abandon him just when he finds something that causes him to need immediate help, because that will happen. It happens to every BS that comes here seeking help to save their M.
I understand your assumption of innocence. I also understand your premise of being spied on being a big love buster, if she is indeed innocent. The problem is that the danger to the marriage isn't from searching for the truth, it comes from the lying, secret fantasy life and dishonesty associated with it.
In Evo's case, his wife is speaking and acting in ways that are indicative of continued contact with the OM. Whether that contact ever became physical matters not one bit. When questioned during an active affair, a WS almost never admits to what they are doing. So asking and taking their word for it are not a valid option, since they will deny they are doing anything wrong.
In the case of an EA, it is even easier for a WS to deny any wrong doing because they have already justified the relationship in their own mind, likely by saying they are "just friends." But if it is purely platonic, and more to the point completely "pure" at its base level, why does it need to be hidden from their S?
Think of it as driving down the road and coming to a safety check roadblock. The police are looking for drunk drivers, those with existing warrants and vehicles that may have issues that compromise the safety of operation. If you have no outstanding warrants, a valid drivers license, a safe vehicle and haven't been drinking, it is only a mild inconvenience. If you are driving on a suspended license, failed to show up for your last DUI court date, are an escaped felon and just killed a bottle of Tennessee's finest, you might not want the cops stopping you.
Bottom line, nothing to hide equals nothing to fear.
As for the respect part of the equation, an A is one of the most disrespectful things a person can do. It show no respect for the BS, none for the relationship, none for the vows of marriage, none at all for the ordinances of God and even none for oneself. So, again, it is because of respecting my wedding vows that I may want to know what my wife is doing at any give point in time and if she is doing nothing wrong, it builds further respect for her in my eyes. The only disrespect that can come from it, is if she is having an A, in which case, the disrespect is on her, not me.
And as for your sitch not being typical, I would suggest that it was patently typical. It requires time in looking at other people's As to see that the norm is pretty standard fair. If you look at some of the first few posts by BSs on this site, you will find that most of the early days are spent trying to make them see that, no matter how different it seems in your own case, the basics and most of the details are exactly the same. Many a BS figure that out about the time of first exposure. The person advising them tells them to expose the A and then the WS will say and do the following things...it gets spelled out, often word for word as to what their WS says when they find the secret has been revealed.
That is precisely why MB principles work. Because all As are based on the same lies and deceit and all WSs use the same methods to justify and rationalize what they are doing. When you are lost in the fog, you don't know you are lost, because all you can see is the fog.
I'd better do some work before they think I'm in a coma or something.
I'll be back later with more.
Blessings to you and thanks for the prayers. It isn't possible to have too many people praying for you.
Mark
as for your sitch not being typical, I would suggest that it was patently typical.
I can understand all you are saying but the above... i am not trying to defend what I did at all because I know it was wrong, but I have no attachment to this person.... i didnt even know who the guy was..... I was hurting really bad and decided to be extremely stupid... i understand that some of my responses are typical of that of a WS, but is it possible it could be from something else? I am confused about the way I feel and dont want to feel this way so I do hope you will continue with your insights to me.
LITW,
I wrote you a rather lengthy post before I left work. Unfortunately, when I hit <Continue> it vanished into cyberspace. I'm going to rethink it before I try again. So I will post something in the morning.
BTW, I did see your latest posts on Evo's thread as well as you own today. You are moving in the right direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Quick Threadjack......to both Mark and LITW:
Mark, please see my post to you on "WS: I SAID I'M SORRY" thread....no time to repost here and it would be a real TJ if I did.
LITW, did you see my response to your comments after the MR. ROMANCE saga? Mark also responded after I answered your comments about marriage choices and God's approval. Glad you're helping others and open to challenges....you're heart of compassion is inspiring. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Un-Quick-Threadjack....Sorry, sort of! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
LITW,
G'morning. Let's see how the old dial-up is working today...
The reason I said your sitch was typical was because the way you two got to the point of your ONS was because of the same dynamic involved in so many cases.
Since you have read HN/HN I will skip that whole explanation of the LB$, etc. Suffice it to say you (and likely your H) had reached a state of withdrawal. You were no longer connected to each other. You no longer felt any bond.
How and why you ended up in a ONS doesn't matter so much as understanding the way to avoid the same series of events that led up to it in the first place. When you give a reason for it, what is your normal mind set? By that I mean do you see it as a weakness on your part or do you feel you must tie it somehow to something your H did or did not do?
What you do, you own. What he does is entirely his. You cannot make him do anything and he does not cause you to do anything. Your feelings and your actions are entirely your own. But yes, the things he does can trigger you to have a certain response, based on past history and the list of things that have happened to you in your life. This is what Dr H talks about as far as instincts and habits.
When we feel threatened, we instinctively defend ourselves. But When we behave a specific way in response to our spouse's action, or in this case likely inaction, it is generally out of habit. There are habits that enhance the R and habits that stress it. You can't really call them good or bad habits, since what may be a great habit in some cases, could be destructive within a M. For example, if you are in combat, a certain sense of detachment to all the carnage may be beneficial. If you take each death in the battle personally, you will be paralyzed and unable to fight effectively. However, within a marital conflict over socks that didn't get picked up or what to have for dinner, detachment probably will not do you much good.
If you don't feel love for your H, you likely also don't feel loved by him. That's not to say that you don't know he loves you, but knowing and feeling are two different things. He may be doing loving things but not the right loving things and so you LB$ is empty or at least below the romantic threshold. I'm assuming you both know each other's top ENs, but how are you each trying to meet them.
Do you spend time with each other just doing fun things? Dr H's 15 hours per week, remember, is a minimum and that for an already healthy M. This must be time when you are meeting each other's ENs. You cannot be problem solving and discussing the R. R talk needs to be scheduled, too, but is not part of this 15 hours. Have you both filled out the REI questionnaire? If nothing else, completing it together should brings a few laughs. Rate from -3 to +3...
Watching paint dry
Watching grass grow
Field hockey (watching)
OK. It isn't that silly, but a few of them are pretty close on my list and my W only knows the word 'knit' without the 'K' and attached to the word 'pick'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Ok, bad joke...
As an experiment try this. Fake it till you make it. If you were madly in love with your H, how would it be different? What things woukld you do? How, specifically, would you act?
And if he were the perfect H, how would he act?
You can only control your actions, not his. So you act without requiring him to act, first or in response. Don't make it a case of giving to get or doing anything in order to get a certain response. You do the things that meet his ENs. Fill his LB$ till it explodes. But remember, you must do things to meet HIS needs, not things you want done to meet your own. If you need a touch and he needs to hear words of affirmation, speak the words. If he gives you a loving touch, great, but if not, don't seek it out on your own.
If you do this for a while and spend 15 hours per week simply trying to fill his LB$ he will either be so loving toward you that you will have to chase him away or he will remain aloof, in which case, he might need a 2x4 applied in the appropriate manner. Just remember, you can't apply the 2x4.
My guess is, that if you actively seek to meet his ENs, when his LB$ reaches a certain point, he will begin to meet your ENs and you WILL begin to feel love for your H once more.
Only God loves unconditionally. He loved us first. We only feel love when we have a decent LB$ balance. Our feelings are not agape, but eros, in the Greek of the New Testament. (actually, that's the best I can do without the Greek character set, and I'm not going to try to go there today.)
I'm running late for work. I have to get going, but let me leave you with this for now.
Jer 29:11
Psalm 5:11 & 12
Proverbs 14:22
Blessings to both of you. It isn't too late as long as you can still see the green side of the grass. You can have a M that is so great it will knock your socks off. It just doesn't happen by itself. And yes, I know you know that already. I just needed to hear myself say it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Mark, ....I have a comment now that will not commit a thread jack.......
Your list, my pain......your passion! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Yes, add fishing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> to your knitting, field hockey, paint grow, grass drying....or whatever...list.....no time to edit..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
And FAKE IT TIL YA MAKE IT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ....like I tried to do for 30+ years.....but it did work for me at least! And like I mentioned earlier....that it should not take 30 years for you, Lost since you've found MB and are open to change.
My 2 cents worth sans TJ....gotta to go work but wish I could stay here and read your whole thread .....and post all day..... but gotta run!
Ace
first.... AIB.... Yes i did read your post under MR. ROMANCE. Thank you. I just didnt respond there because I saw that you have been here and I did not want to be posting in too many areas.
Mark,
okay where do I start.... it would be nice if i could change the color of the font to make it easier to view the difference between your comments and mine. oh well.....
YOU: The reason I said your sitch was typical was because the way you two got to the point of your ONS was because of the same dynamic involved in so many cases.
ME: okay.. that does make sense... if I take that perspective I can understand what you are saying.
YOU: How and why you ended up in a ONS doesn't matter so much as understanding the way to avoid the same series of events that led up to it in the first place. When you give a reason for it, what is your normal mind set? By that I mean do you see it as a weakness on your part or do you feel you must tie it somehow to something your H did or did not do?
ME: I would love to point fingers and say it was him, but I know it was me... all the way. Sure part of the reason was i felt neglected,not wanted, not desired but bottom line I know that only I control what I do. If asked why i did it.. my first response would be that I was trying to get a reaction out of my H. But though that may be my initial response if i dig deeper into they why... it is because i felt and still feel that if my husband doesnt want me or desire me that i obviously must not be anything special... and if im not anything special and somebody want me... well then fine lets do it.... bottom line I think it goes to the lack of respect I carry for myself.... WOW i think that is the first time I ever really said/wrote that... yikes!
YOU: If you don't feel love for your H, you likely also don't feel loved by him.That's not to say that you don't know he loves you, but knowing and feeling are two different things.
ME: You may have hit it on the head with this one.
YOU: I'm assuming you both know each other's top ENs, but how are you each trying to meet them. Do you spend time with each other just doing fun things? Dr H's 15 hours per week, remember, is a minimum and that for an already healthy M.
ME: We try to spend more than the 15 hours a week together, but most of the time i think that we both forget that time is supposed to be spent filling each other EN's
YOU: Have you both filled out the REI questionnaire? If nothing else, completing it together should brings a few laughs. Rate from -3 to +3...
ME: I have filled it out and showed it to him, but he still has not filled his out and he really did seem that interested in my information. My top EN is recreation activities (yes i know that is typically a male one), but to him RA is watching tv......
YOU: As an experiment try this. Fake it till you make it.
ME: I would have an extremely hard time doing this... I am very expressive even when I am not saying anything my face or body says a thousand words and doesnt lie.... (It really sucks!)
YOU: If you were madly in love with your H, how would it be different?
ME: I guess i would want to spend more time with him.
YOU: What things woukld you do? How, specifically, would you act?
ME: Spending more time with him and trying to get his attention. I used to do that all the time, but kept on being told that I am too needy and an attention hog.... I guess that can be part of the reason that i dont want attention any more.
YOU: And if he were the perfect H, how would he act?
ME: He would want me, desire me, want to play and goof off
YOU: You can only control your actions, not his. So you act without requiring him to act, first or in response. Don't make it a case of giving to get or doing anything in order to get a certain response. You do the things that meet his ENs. Fill his LB$ till it explodes. But remember, you must do things to meet HIS needs, not things you want done to meet your own. If you need a touch and he needs to hear words of affirmation, speak the words. If he gives you a loving touch, great, but if not, don't seek it out on your own.
ME: I completely understand.... but i dont want his touch anymore... it doesnt feel loving or sincere.
YOU: If you do this for a while and spend 15 hours per week simply trying to fill his LB$ he will either be so loving toward you that you will have to chase him away or he will remain aloof, in which case, he might need a 2x4 applied in the appropriate manner. Just remember, you can't apply the 2x4.
ME: Can it be a 6x6 and do you want to do it?
YOU: My guess is, that if you actively seek to meet his ENs, when his LB$ reaches a certain point, he will begin to meet your ENs and you WILL begin to feel love for your H once more.
ME: it is worth a shot.... what do i have to loose right?!?
YOU: It isn't too late as long as you can still see the green side of the grass. You can have a M that is so great it will knock your socks off.
ME: Well it may need some fertalizer.....
Thank you for your words of wisdom.... I really appreciate them.
LITW
LITW,
I have not read all your posts since you came here, but I do remember this one. You stated the blasé nature of your affair yourself, in your very first post (paragraphs added):
“My husband and I have been married for 7 years. I have not been happy for probably 6 of those 7 but because of my beliefs decided that I would stick it out. I do believe that God is the God of miracles and that at any second one could happen.
About a year ago I had a ONS with a stranger. I did this because I wanted to give my husband a reason to leave. He chose to stay.
Prior to that happening we tried counseling and I have been in counseling for years on my own. After the ONS we went back to counseling and read through His needs her needs. It is an amazing book and we both got a lot of information from it.
Here I am a year later and still my heart is not in it. I love my husband, but just not in the way a wife should. I have been praying that God will change my heart but it just doesn’t seem to change. I kills me because I know I am hurting my husband in the process.
This morning he told me that I really don’t love him, because if I did I would want to have kids with him. I don’t want kids right now and don’t know if I ever will..... He knew that coming in.....
I am just getting to my end and don’t know what to do! Please help me!”
You had a typical exit affair.
Exit affairs are all exactly alike. Carter classifies them as Type I non-romantic affairs.
This post of yours can be analyzed further. There is quite a lot of information in it, actually. But it would be best if you did this analysis yourself.
Want to start here?
“I have not been happy for probably 6 of those 7 but because of my beliefs decided that I would stick it out. I do believe that God is the God of miracles and that at any second one could happen.”
What, precisely, were you not happy about? Can you put your finger on it?
How does choosing an affair fit in your spiritual belief system?
With prayers,
You had a typical exit affair.
“I have not been happy for probably 6 of those 7 but because of my beliefs decided that I would stick it out. I do believe that God is the God of miracles and that at any second one could happen.”
What, precisely, were you not happy about? Can you put your finger on it?
How does choosing an affair fit in your spiritual belief system?
An exit affair... that makes sense.... still doesnt make it right though..... as far as how does an affair fit into my spiritual beliefs.... it doesn't! Adultery is wrong and is a sin. I know that what i did was wrong... but maybe i was looking at it as a way to exit with reason. i mean that as far as besides the unhappiness on my part i have no reasons to leave..... i was being stupid... stupid stupid stupid.... i cracked the door for satan to crawl in a little to wide.... i dont have anything to say except that i was very very very stupid.
as far as what precisely i am unhappy about.... that one is a bit tough... i guess part of it has to do with the feeling of being cheated.... when you are dating you are on your best behavior you know... well part of my H behavior was we were very active in the outdoors and doing RA all the time. RA is my number 1 EN. After marriage it changed to just tv, movies, computers, and playstation/nintendo/whatever other name games. slowly my Love bank balance became less and less.... shortly there after he even lost interest in me (S**).... sure i would initiate every once in awhile, but it is hard when only one party is doing that... dont get me wrong I am the farthest from being stuck up, but i am not fat, ugly, or bad looking.... so what is wrong with me?!?! That is the question i have been trying to answer for 6 years now.... i can honestly look back to when we were dating and say that I was the only was initiating anything then too (Even on our HONEYMOON!!!!).... so I think that essentially those to things have caused my love bank to go bankrupt. The thing is we are great friends and enjoy each others company but a lot of my friends have even asked me on different occasions if my husband is gay!!! Well that just makes me feel great......
I probably said way to much and blabed on too long... so i hope that helps answer the questions......
LITW,
Hi there. Sorry I never got back to you today. I'm still paying for having to take a couple weeks off. I'm still at work now, an hour and a half after everyone else has left.
I see Aphelion has joined the thread. At least I know that you're in good hands while I'm off getting well.
I'm going to think about what I might say next and haven't had any time at all today to think about much of anything. So, I might stop by in the morning before I head to the hospital, but it all depends on how things go with getting ready. whether tomorrow or in a week or so, I will be back and I do hope that others will jump in while I'm gone.
Blessings.
Mark
LITW,
Thank you for your response to the Romance thread. I hope you rediscover joy in your life soon.
Ace
LITW,
There is so much I would like to say, but rather than a two page post that I will not see the response to for a week, I'm going to just leave it alone this morning. Suffice it to say that I wish there was something I could say that could make your M what God intended it to be, but alas, I have no magic words and I think at this point it would be best to take one step at a time rather than throwing a bunch of stuff out there and hoping the shotgun blast hits something.
Do not quit posting on Evo's or anyone else's thread. You DO have some insight that can help people see things from a different perspective. Just be sure you are learning as well as teaching and before contradicting the advice of those who have recovered their M, check to make sure that your opinion lines up with Dr H's. If somebody with eleven thousand posts jumps in, he/she has likely been here a while. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I need to go get ready to head for the hospital. You can pray for me, if you would and know that I will also be praying for you.
Aphelion, Ace, anyone else that can help out. I leave LITW in your care in my absence. Take good care of her. (Probably a better job than I have been doing.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
Thanks!
I'll be back! . . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Mark,
Thank you... and yes you will be in my prayers as will your family.
I will look forward to hearing from you on your return.... I think i can actually say i am going to miss your council...
heal with God speed.... LITW
LITW,
Keep up with LA on your other thread.
She's good.
Even when I don't understand her.
with prayers,
Thanks Aphelion... i havent heard from her for a few days... so hopefully she is okay... i really an trying to learn as much as I can
LITW,
Hi there!
I got home last night. It might take me a day or two to catch up on the latest, but how are you doing?
I'm posting results of my surgery elsewhere.
Mark
Hi Mark!!!
Glad to hear you are home and will search for your results post!
LITW
Hi LITW,
Check out the "WS: I SAID I'M SORRY, why can't you just get over it?" thread for Mark's update (post #3199946).
Ace
LITW,
I just had a question I wanted to throw out there.
Have you considered that you might be depressed?
I ask because I was diagnosed with depression about ten years ago, although I know now that I've had it as long as I can remember.
I have had (and still do sometimes) some feelings similar to yours.
I spent a lot of my life being unhappy (hiding it well a lot of times though). A lot, okay most, of the time I would blame my M for it. And yes, we did have a lot of problems (I had left three times during our M, all of those times there was no A at all).
I'm no where near "fixed" but I have realized that I was expecting DH to make me happy...say all the right things, do all the right things...and went he didn't (go figure, he's human and not a mind reader) I would be more unhappy. I am learning that happiness is something I have to find within myself, very hard to do, still haven't got that one all down, but I know it to be true.
My faulty (fantasy related) reasoning was...if he's not making me happy, he must not be the "one." If he was the "one", I would be happy. Part of it had to do with things in our relationship which we could improve (like communication) but a lot of it had to do with JUST ME...
Sometimes I find myself blah, not happy and I can't even point to a why. It just is. At least now I have learned to differentiate marriage happiness vs. "me" happiness.
Does any of this resonate with you at all?
Mom
LITW,
I wrote you a rather lengthy post before I left work. Unfortunately, when I hit <Continue> it vanished into cyberspace. I'm going to rethink it before I try again. So I will post something in the morning.
I've noticed several people mentioning this and it happens to me too, have you tried this?
When I get the dreaded "your form is no longer valid" or some such notice, I hit the BACK arrow on my IE window and it goes back to the screen where my response was.
I highlight my response and right click and select COPY.
Then I have to refresh the page and start over again, but this time I just PASTE the reply I had copied and then hit continue...at least I haven't lost everything I was gonna say.
Not that anybody would be missing anything of course... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Does that work for anyone?
Mom2AZ,
Thank you for your post..... as for the copy paste thing... do it all the time.... no way would i even want to attempt to re-write the post again...
as far as the depression goes..... you did pin point one of my really big issues.... it is one of the lovely things i inherited!!!
"Sometimes I find myself blah, not happy and I can't even point to a why. It just is."
This statement is so me... not even funny.....
I have/am taking medication for it and it does keep it under control..... my H actually had a really hard time with this because he does not believe that i need medication.... we have had numerous conversation about it.... and he tries to be very understanding.....
i do try to stop myself from looking at humans as my savior since they cant be, but i think sometimes as a women.... that little fantasy world sometimes tries to escape.....
LITW,
One of the things that my W and I have struggled with for a long time is that she always seems to have the same attitude toward happiness that you tend toward. You rightly call it a fantasy and that is all it can be.
Your husband can no more "make" you happy than he can make you 6 feet tall. On top of that, making you happy isn't part of the job description of "husband." He signed on to love, honor and cherish. Those are the things he needs to do.
Also be careful not to confuse cause and effect. Just because he isn't making you happy does not mean that he is the cause of your unhappiness.
Just so you know, I do see that you have learned that to be the case, but you need to remember it when you feel unhappy. Try to find a way to run to your H for comfort when unhappy instead of avoiding him. He can't read your mind and never will be able to do so. He only knows if you are hurting when you tell him, but try to do it without making it seem as if you blame him for your pain. I'm only guessing that is what happens, but since it is what my W does, I'm going on personal experience.
Good to see others joining in on this and your personal thread as well. I'd hate to think that it was just me...
Well, gotta go. Time for dressing change...Oh joy!
Mark
Also be careful not to confuse cause and effect. Just because he isn't making you happy does not mean that he is the cause of your unhappiness.
Right. Intellectually I get it.
So, sometimes I'm still unhappy, but now I know it's not DH's fault.
So what do I do with the *unhappiness* now?
How do I turn that frown, upside down?!
Ok, that was really, really bad...
Mom,
Maybe I'm cynical, but do you need to be "happy?" Isn't it OK to be sad or even bummed out about life and just chalk it up to "life sucks sometimes" rather than having to find something to make us happy?
That is how addicts are made. An addict searches for a better feeling than what they have by looking outside themselves for that feeling or at least for a source of that feeling. By giving the power to give us a good feeling about ourselves to someone or something outside ourselves, we relinquish our responsibility for our own feelings and that leads to doing the same for our actions.
The U.S. Constitution guarantees a right to the pursuit of happiness, not happiness itself.
When ever we feel sad, depressed, angry or just indifferent toward life, the solution needs to be inside of us. If we have to go outside ourselves, then we are also blaming something or someone outside of us for the way we currently feel, since if it is not my responsibility to be happy, it also can't be my fault if I'm not happy.
When Paul says "Be joyful always;" in 1 Thes 5:16, his meaning isn't to be ecstatic and feel like the world is your oyster. He means that no matter what life deals us, we are to place our hope in Him who died for us and what He has promised us for the future. (Jer 29:11) The idea that all things work together for the good of those that trust Him, does not mean that we will always be happy, that nothing bad will ever happen or that we will feel like all is well at all times in our life. What it does mean is that there is a God and we're not Him. He ultimately knows what is right, we only have the way we feel to go by.
There have been times, within recent months and weeks that I have considered if my lot wouldn't be better if I was no longer married to my W. The past year could have been spent fishing and enjoying life rather than fighting to save my marriage, studying infidelity, ENs, LBs and worrying about whether or not my negative attitude about anything at all will cause my W to decide to leave me for someone who makes her feel better about herself.
But I signed up "for better or for worse" and this has been the "worse." I guess that means that eventually I will get the "better." That is what keeps me going, not happiness. Happiness can't be sustained, commitment can. It is a choice, not a feeling.
Mark
I can't disagree with what you said...some of it probably is related to that whole "fantasy mindset." We are bombarded with messages that we should be happy and if we're not we need to change it/fix it, do something, so that we are happy.
I guess the next thing would be what each individual's perception of happiness is. It is clearly very different from person to person.
If I define it as being satisfied with my life, I would say yes I'm happy. But then again, I tend to be a perfectionist and I tend to always want to strive for better. Not in things, but in myself (before A, but esp. now). Maybe I need to slow down and just be for a bit.
DH varies from content to very happy.
I do think I stand in my own way sometimes. I think part of it is depression and the unclear thinking that comes along with that. It's almost not knowing what it's like to NOT be depressed, if that makes sense (I was depressed as young as I can remember).
I'm certainly waaaaay better at not succumbing to the down feelings when they swirl overhead.
Can I just blame it all on my agorophobic, emotionally distant mom and be done with it?
Eh, prolly not.
Mom
There have been times, within recent months and weeks that I have considered if my lot wouldn't be better if I was no longer married to my W. The past year could have been spent fishing and enjoying life rather than fighting to save my marriage, studying infidelity, ENs, LBs and worrying about whether or not my negative attitude about anything at all will cause my W to decide to leave me for someone who makes her feel better about herself. But I signed up "for better or for worse" and this has been the "worse." I guess that means that eventually I will get the "better." That is what keeps me going, not happiness. Happiness can't be sustained, commitment can. It is a choice, not a feeling.
Mark, You are amazing!!! Can i admit that it actually is nice to hear that even you still struggle? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
In Esther (and if you watched one night with the king which i think was pretty good)it says (not quoted) I am being prepared for a time such as this.....
I believe that everything happens for a reason and that God can turn it all for good... Mark you have been helping me greatly in a time when i have been so lost! I have had a place to come and talk to people who also believe and are fighting to get through!!! My church's slogan or motto is "Life Bites!!!... God knows and He cares!" We live in a fallen world right? Thank God that we have Him and can hope and believe in that!!! All your studying and what you have been through is not only helping you, but many others!
Mom2A&Z,
I dont remember if you have been following my posts with LA, but if you read her latest... She is amazing and covers some of those exact same issues with me.... It is our choice to believe our truth.....
LITW
Hmmm...somehow I've missed them. I'll go dig them up.
thanks,
Mom
LITW,
If you look at my registration date and see that I have been at this less than a year, you will realize that the fact that I still struggle is not so amazing. I'm still a newbie! There are people here that have been at this a whole lot longer than I have.
On average, it takes two full years to reach a point of feeling recovered from an A. Some take longer, some less. It is actually just before the 6 month mark that many think they are well into recovery, but the issues of dealing with the A on almost a daily basis take their toll and the 6 to 7 month mark can be absolute h377.
Am I recovered? Nope. Am I still trying to recover. Yep!
When I got here, I wanted to save the M I had. It took me only a short time to realize that the one I had was not worth saving and what I really wanted was to build a new one, one that was what it should have been all along. Part of that building process is learning to deal with various problems with the old one and doing something about those problems instead of hoping they would fix themselves. They never do!
Trouble in marriage can never be fixed the Microsoft way. If you leave it alone for 30 minutes, it gets worse, not better. Negotiating for resolution agreeable to both H & W is what takes a lot of work and time.
My recent health issues have taught me a lot about what it takes to heal. When this all began I had a small spot that appeared to be a pimple. It soon became a boil and did what all boils do. It hurt, it opened up and drained...read that, it bled! It seemed to get better, but actually had gotten worse. It wasn't until it started growing in size that I realized that it was not going to go away on its own.
I soon had something that a hundred years or so ago would have taken my life. My skin was melting away before my eyes. Every day it got worse and I sought help from experts. No immediate infection was identified and I was given the usual treatments. It was while following the guidelines of the experts that things got even worse. It was now obvious to everyone that something radical had to take place for me to heal and get over it all.
I had simple surgery (is surgery ever simple?) and the diseased tissue was cut away. The BAD STUFF was removed by force! What was left was this 4 by 6 inch hole in my skin. I literally had no skin there at all. The fascia of the muscle was visible. The pain was pretty much gone, but I was far from healed.
Eventually, the wound may have closed up by itself. The body is amazing in the way it can heal, but the bigger possibility was that another infection could get behind my skin and do even more damage. I might have had the dreaded necrotizing fasciitis. Also known as flesh-eating disease, it is actually several bacteria that behave in the same way once established. They travel along the fascia of the muscles (that white covering you see on a piece of meat). Since the infection is hidden under the skin, huge areas are involved before any symptoms are detected. Within days large areas of skin putrefy and fall off. Without the skin, the body is defenseless.
So I waited and accepted that I would need further surgery to "fix" the problem. While waiting, I had to rely totally on others for certain things. At work, I could no longer lift large or heavy objects because I would damage the blood vessels that were exposed. Normally any open blood vessels would be protected from infection by my skin, but I didn't have any.
Every day, I had to just lie on the bed and wait for my wife to change my dressings. Some days, the dressing changes hurt more than the surgery. Others, the change was a welcomed and refreshing procedure of cleansing and compassion. Either way, I could do nothing about it. It was totally out of my control!
And when I was told it was time for a skin graft, I was ready. What a healing method. They cut a piece out of my right thigh to fix the hole in my chest. I now have two places that hurt like h377! Some healing, huh? But I can already see the new skin growing on my chest and my leg feels better today than it did yesterday. My wife is changing my dressings again and I am allowing her to care for me.
More is healing than just the wound on my skin...But I didn't get here by avoiding the painful things that actually are causing the healing to begin.
Call it lessons in marriage building through medical procedures that hurt sometimes.
Mark
Wow, Mark......your analogies regarding emotional/physical healings are quite poignant. Thanks for sharing.
Ace
LITW,
Haven't heard from you in a while. How are you doing? Whazup?
Mark
Mark,
Thanks for the check in! Things are going pretty well over here... just taking it day by day and using all the good advice i have been getting.... somedays are still harder to handle than others but I know that with God all things are possible.
How are you doing?
LITW,
Check out the Recreation forum.....Mark finally took my "talk me into fishing" challenge and his posts are tremendously entertaining and educational.
Also, please email me sometime if you can.
**edit**
Thanks,
Ace
LITW,
It does take time to heal, doesn't it?
It is amazing to me the way the human body has been created to heal and repair itself. Even when we reach "full grown" our body is still able to grow new tissue to repair the damage of an injury.
And our soul, too can heal, given enough time. Just like I needed to simply trust my doctors to fix what was wrong with me, we can count on God to do what needs to be done to repair our soul. My two surgeries hurt, and the second even created a second wound that needed to heal, but without the pain of the first, I might have actually died. And without the second, I would have continued to have a place that was highly vulnerable to infection and likely would have been disabled by something else before healing took place completely.
Just like the doctors gave me some good pain medications to get me over the hump and well into healing, God can give us His comfort and His hope to get us through until our soul, spirit and body have all been healed. And just like I needed to go to someone who had more wisdom about healing my body, we need to rely on Him for the wisdom, including the wisdom He has given to other people for guidance in our healing.
Solomon speaks of everything under the sun being foolishness. The reason for this is that as long as we are aiming for anything solely on this Earth, and in our own way, we are aiming way too low. When we aim for the things of God, we find that our own ways are merely foolish.
Glad to see you are on the way... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Mark,
You have such a way of putting words together..... I want you to know how impressed I am! you mentioned in your fish forum how you did (not sure if you still do)5 minute mini sermons to the children and that just so blessed my heart because when i was young someone at my church did that too! It was such a neat thing and I still remember it years later!!! Solomon was so wise.... the foolishness that surrounds all of us can seem so overwhelming and sometimes even tries to engulf us.... but it is still foolishness... no matter how Satan tries to hide it or mask it the same still remains true.... We do have to keep our eyes on God and only God.... LA and I have talked in our thread of how humans will always dissapoint us, but God.... he never will... so it just make sense to want to focus on him.... but us as humans... turn just for a second.... and WHAM!!!! lost all over again.... Thankful with God's grace He lets us in once again......
LITW
LITW,
Don't be impressed by me, I have what I know to be a gift and I also know what it is for.
I haven't been doing a lot of teaching lately & didn't realize till recently how much I missed it. When I was still doing the kids sermons it was actually a standing joke, pointed out by the pastor almost every week, that I would deliver a message that was "for the children."
Some of my best object lessons came at times when something had just gone horribly wrong in some way. Teachers sometimes have days that would cause most people to run screaming from the room, never to return. Those with "the gift" can often turn those moments into the kind of "ah-ha" moments that kids remember for a lifetime. And when God decides to get involved, it seems almost like magic.
After 11 weeks without rain of any kind, I walked to the front of the church with an umbrella. I explained that since we were having a draught, I wanted to pray for God to send the rain. I also asked if anyone else had umbrellas with them. I pointed out that I didn't want to pray for anything that I didn't really believe would happen. If we ask God for something, we should simply believe that He is going to deliver it. Kids understand that kind of faith. We need a few years to forget that this is supposed to be how it works.
The basis for this message came from a book. It wasn't entirely my idea, but I felt somehow that it was what God wanted me to say that morning.
Before I left, I asked the kids to pray for something that they thought was important. One prayed for healing for a sick pet. One asked that their grandmother would be well again. One asked that their mom and dad wouldn't fight anymore, by which time, several dozen adults were crying visibly. At the end, I prayed that God would send His rain and give relief from all the heat.
That night it began to drizzle, then rained harder. It never did pour down rain, but rained gently for about 12 hours. By noon the next day we had received about 2 inches of rain and the temperature was only about 10 degrees less than the day before.
The weather man on TV said it was a freak set of conditions where the cooling of evaporation along the shoreline of Lake Michigan caused a localized cool front to develop and spread inland. The drop in temperature caused low level clouds to build and that led to both the rain and the fact that the thermometer didn't reach what was expected. At the lake itself, it never rained. You had to be about 25 miles inland for it to have any effect and by 60 miles away, nothing happened at all. We live about 45 miles from the lake-shore.
The next week, every single kid remembered what had happened and spoke of it. Many adults remembered it too. The tally for the day was one healed pet, Grandma came to church with the family for the first time in over a year and Mom and Dad sat together in a pew where the week before only Mom had been seated.
Three people carried umbrellas into church with them that day.
There are many "Kodak" moments in life, but also many "God Moments" when it becomes clear to all that He is working.
When we pray we should expect Him to act, but we also need to remember that He knows the perfect time and the perfect way to act.
Success doesn't rely on us doing it right, only on us relying on Him.
Mark
Mark,
I have people bumps on my goose bumps!!!!! I am just speechless.... just shows me once again how complete faith and reliance on God alone is the Only thing worth believing in!
May God continue to bless you as you are blessing others.
LITW
Mark... if i didnt know better that was a proud smile on tj's thread.... does that mean im doing good?!?
im sure it is probably a nice feeling to see when someone you have ministered to ministring to others and really full hearted trying to improve themselves....
just want to say thanks... your smile made my day!
LITW
LITW,
You caught that, huh?
I actually went back and read your early posts and compared the tone, for lack of a better term, to your recent ones...
You've come a long way, baby! (Sorry. I guess that dates me, doesn't it.)
Nothing like helping someone who was where we once were to help us work through our own issues!
Seriously; you are doing great, IMO.
Just remember that with wisdom comes responsibilty. We will once be held accountable for what we have been given and asked to explain what we have done with it. In this case, I might say "well done...."
Now, more to the point, how are YOU doing?
Mark
You know Mark... I have to just say thank you! I believe with all my heart that God brings specific people into our lives at certain times. My "dad" was not much of one and really had nothing to do with me or my siblings while he was around.... which then he had an affair and left us.... but God has always provided someone to sort of step into a fatherly role and give me the advice, words, and encouragment to get me through specific difficult battles. Through this small part of my great journey you have been that encouraging father figure... the one that is firm but talking out of love and concern.... giving examples and explanations where needed.... I cherish this very much!
I know that i still have a long way to go but between you, LA, and Ace.... i think i am at the top of this small mountain looking down in triumph at this small battle i have won. Sure i still have days that suck... and sure there are days that i think what am i doing, but all in all When God is for us... who can be against us ?!?
this past week has been a bit of a downer week for me, but as things go on around me and I read different situations on here... i realize how little my issues really are... i am still working on being thankful for everything even the trials and tribulations and i just keep my focus on that I am not alone... I just hope that I will be able to help someone as much as you have helped me..... not that i want you to go away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
also... have enjoyed your fishing saga... since i didnt know a darn thing about fishing prior to the start of it... and how are you healing up?
LITW
Hi LITW,
Your mentioning my name as one who helped you made my night.....I need so much help myself it's a wonder I have anything valuable to share with others.
I am changing that 'poor self-image' attitude slowly but surely. I appreciate both of you and all of the MB community members who care so much.
Ace
PS Mark, I'm patiently waiting for the suggestions you alluded to regarding dumping triggers related to cell phone voice mail. This triggers my recollections of my H and OW having phone sex while he let my calls go into VM.
Ace, you are too humble! Sometimes those that need help can help others through the pains they have experianced themselves.....
Mark.... Did i scare you away? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
LITW
MB methods make sense, once you see them working time after time, but they are not immediately intuitive.
True, as long as one remembers MB methods are NOT a religion, NOT infallible, and NOT strictly applicable to every case.
LITW,
I'm still around and have been trying to find time for MB all day...But I'm back to work...the operative word here being WORK... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I'll be back later...Really...(I think) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Ace,
I'm working on it and hope to have something up by this weekend. Since I no longer have long hours sitting at home alone to contemplate the nuances of what I want to say, I am in a sort of "wing it" mode right now and that isn't the way to say anything of value.
LITW,
I am flattered that you feel that I have helped you in some way. I would hope that my biggest contribution would be to cause you to think through things and see how they compare to what Dr Harley has said in his writings what you are experiencing and saying.
God does indeed work miracles in our life by bringing specific people along that can shed some light onto our situation in order to help us to see more clearly what we need to change in ourselves. So often, I believe that He allows us to undergo some traumatic event in an effort to teach us something about us, the world at large and Himself. At the time we are learning this lesson it seems that everything is going against us and that He is against us too, but, as He says in Jer 29:11, He already knows the plans He has for us, and they are to give us a hope and a future.
If my W had not begun an A with OM, I would not be here at all. I never would have learned about HN/HN, the LB$ or anything else on this site. I would not have learned about exposure or Plan A/Plan B or POJA...I have many more tools now to assist me in my marriage than I had before.
I also would not have experienced the most painful and helpless feeling time of my life. I would not have spent 3 weeks sleeping only an hour or two per night and would not have dropped 18 pounds by forgetting to eat.
But I also would not have grown as close to our relatively new pastor, who introduced me to Dr Harley's methods and who used those methods when his own W had an EA years ago. I would not have grown as close to a now dear friend who gave me encouragement and advice in the first few days and would call me in the middle of the night just to ask if I was OK and tell me to reread Psalm 102 (strong emphasis on verse 12 after the agony of 1 thru 11). I would not have been able to help my SIL in her grieving process when she found her H of exactly 30 days dead on the floor of their home after work one morning.
And most importantly to me, I would not have even known how to accept the care and tenderness that my W showed to me during the early and middle stages of my healing from my bacterial infection that even 20 years ago might have killed me. I learned to relax by being sick and had the great privilege of letting her care for me daily for about 8 weeks. God used her A and my illness to heal much more than a hole in my side...
And now I find myself wanting to share what I have learned. I've always believed in the method of teaching that says that to really learn anything you must "watch once, do once and teach once." In the ten months I have been here I have seen that modelled over and over again. Those that came before including BP, Longhorn, Believer, Pep, LA and others have stayed around to help me and I in turn am still here attempting to help others. For me, it is an honor and I pray that I might somehow help someone in their journey.
My only regret is that I cannot allow myself to get involved in so much on MB that I neglect my own W and M. We are still trying to rebuild our R and even now, I am late getting home from work so that I can sit here and type.
God used my own situation to teach me insights that I can now share with others. For me, the world looked like it was ending and with exposure to those who had the most influence on my W, she quickly ended it and began NC even as I was wanting to ask for it. It didn't look good even then for quite a while and there are days I still have my doubts, but I have learned enough to know that this is the way it happens in recovery.
And God also used my illness to teach me to accept help and care from others and just relax and let it happen without having to help out or participate. He gave me a surgeon I'd recommend to anyone, nurses that cared deeply when I was in pain and brought me closer to friends than I might have been able to get without being sick. He also put me in a position where my W could make huge LB$ deposits daily without me having to struggle in any way at a time when the account was in dangerous territory. Dealing with the aftermath of an A is gruelling and can take a lot out of a person. Which is why Dr Harley says that Plan A should only last about six months at most, unless great progress is being made. In my sitch, that was and is the case.
I am not totally healed and neither is my R with my W, but both of us are getting better by the day.
Mark
phew!!!! After i posted to TJ i thought for a second maybe i was wrong... but with your response after mine... i feel much better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
LITW,
(Still wish you'd change your screen name, BTW) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
It seems to me that until she reaches the bottom, she doesn't really know she is falling. She thinks she is flying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />...a pity, really. Any real grievances that she does have will be lost in the fallout from what she is doing. Nothing will be resolved and she will move on to her next husband without knowing what really happened. Her husband too may move on without ever knowing that he may have contributed to the situation and will perhaps fail again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
And then there is the example that is being set for the members of the congregation..."My life is boring, I'm moving on to something more exiting." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I only wish that her H would find his way in here.
Saw the doctor today, BTW. For the first time since late December the only thing between my chest and the world at large is my shirt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It feels kinda...weird. I won't miss the tape, though.
I also get to start working out again. Kewl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I just reread a book you might find useful. It is called "Lasting Love" by Alistair Begg. Good chapter on "Pulling Weeds" & another on "Planting Hedges." Good stuff!
My copy is signed by the author. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> We met him last fall at a speaking engagement he had in the area. He might be a nicer guy in person than he seems to be on the radio, if that is possible.
Mark
Hi Mark....
What would I change my name to? LITWBFBG? lost in the world but found by grace?
I am excited to hear that you are healing well and will be able to resume things that some of us avoid like the plague.... funny how when you cant do something you miss it huh?!?
As for the book... i wrote it down and as soon as i am done posting will be ordering it! I am in need of a good book and am going on vacation in 25days 11 hours and 9 minutes (not counting at all) so i need a good book to read!
as far as TJ... i completely agree... one thing that through my situation was brought up to me was how i either figure this out and improve where i am at with whom i am with or i will have to repeat it again later on with someone else..... It hurts to see someone getting so much good advice and choose to slap it away.... I just dont understand.... I came here to get some sense knocked into me and remind me of the things i already new deep down inside but was trying to forget or had forgotten..... I know by all means I and my husband are to recovered but we are working and communicating so much better and I know that God will take us to a level I never even dreamed of! I just want to go up to tj and grab her shoulders, look in her eyes and say wake up!!!! this isnt real what are you thinking!?! The fact of life being boring.... doesnt everyone have days like that? isnt that life?!? my gosh if i wanted an adventure everyday.... well man i dont even want to think what i would have to do to myself....
Maybe we can pray that her husband does stumble across MB....
LITW, (If you change to what you suggest I'd have to shorten it to what is already to avoid getting cramps in my fingers) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I have already used all of my vacation days and sick days and personal days....and good behavior days for the whole year. So I won't be going on a vacation any time soon. Fortunately we have a vacation spot about an hour and a half from home that we can go to on weekends (when the church doesn't have rights to either of us) and can actually go to work from if we choose to do so (Extra hour travel for W, extra hour and 15 for me.)
For me, working out was part of my Plan A. I had just sort of stayed in OK shape, but knew I could do better. Since DS21 is big into workouts (he's a real stud), when W was considering last fall the joining of a gym, I suggested that for about the price of one membership for one year we could get one of those "home gym" things and give it a try, allowing us to both do the workout without leaving home. I was using it Mon, Wed and Friday and the tread mill (she already owned that) on Tues and Thurs. I used it for just over 2 months when I had to stop. My waist size was down an inch and my neck increased by an equal amount, though my weight remained the same as it had been. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
She has used it about twice, BTW and is 30 pounds heavier than she was a year ago. She says she can't work out because our DGD is around or someone else always has something for her to do...I gave up my early morning fishing shows to work out. I think she could find the time if she wanted to do it. Sort of a point of contention around our home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I feel at times like she has replaced working out and being attractive and wayward with sitting in front of the TV and eating to avoid having to learn to ignore the attention she gets when she's 35 or 40 pounds lighter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
But this morning I did 25 minutes on the tread mill and tomorrow I'll see what I can do on the rest of the stuff.
As for tj, I'm done unless and until I am asked for help. I should have stayed out of it to begin with, I think. But I don't learn very quickly because today I got involved in a similar situation. I just get so tired of excuses as to "why" someone "can't" when what they are referring to is "won't." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
My current sig line describes where I am at this point in time...
As for the book, try his website if you don't find it anywhere else. Prices are usually below list and there is a bunch of other stuff that is good as well.
Keep working at being the wife God expects you to be and you may find that your H will become the best H you could ever dream up. If we make our own half better, the whole improves. If we allow our own share of the M to fall into disrepair then the M itself is worse off than it was. I can't make my wife do anything, I can only work on myself. Whether she improves herself or not, the M will still be better than if I let myself become bitter.
That is not to say you should give at every turn or even worse, give in. The best that can do is to build resentment and cause our taker to rise up in response. Instead be totally honest, own your own stuff and let H own his. Negotiate in the way Dr Harley recommends and attempt to use POJA on any decision that has any effect on you both.
If I can't find the bright side to look on, it may be that things aren't as dark as I first thought. (sound bite for the day) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Name change suggestion (and a wave :::hi LITW:::)...
WFTS
Whole From The Start
or
MWFG
Made Whole With Love?
Keep it simple for us really old people, 'k?
LOL
LA
LA,
You're as young as you feel...
OMG, I'm a hundred and three! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
The first sign of old age is forgetting things.
I don't remember the rest of the list. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
You know you're getting old when:
1)Your cool new sunglasses are bifocals. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
2)You think back on your childhood fondly only to realize you can't remember much of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
3)The police officer that just wrote you a ticket for driving too slowly looked REALLY young. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
4)The new department manager they just hired remembers you because he went to school with your son. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
5)The young kid you once raced against has now retired from NASCAR (applies to me) Another one is considered the old man of the sport. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
6)You think the latest super-model gracing the covers of all the magazines is a cute kid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
7)You are more confused after reading the owners manual for your new television than you were before you read it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
8)The remote control for the TV at your house was YOU. "Hey, while you're up, get channel 2." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
9)As the traffic accident takes place and your life flashes before your eyes, you really only get the trailer... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
10)You remember when Elvis broke into show business. (You remember because you saw him on the Ed Sullivan Show.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ah, yes. I remember it all now! It's like it was only 40 years ago or so.
What was the question? Speak into my GOOD ear, will ya?
Mark
LITW,
How was your day?
How are things going?
Any improvement in your sitch?
Mark
Hi Mark... Still trying to brainstorm a good name... I want something with thought and meaning.... kinda hard to do sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
As for the tj stich.... she hasnt humed or hawed today.... I hope all is well..... I've been talking with another lady in the recovery thread... i think that is going well... but between you and me.... what do you tell someone when they know of God but have choosen to stray away and yet they know that God is the only one to salvage their marriage.... Should they put all their focus into God? I know that God should be our number 1, but at the same time for a marriage in trouble... couldnt that end up having a negative impact?
im just kinda talking out loud... does that make sense at all?
LITW,
"Still trying to brainstorm a good name... I want something with thought and meaning.... kinda hard to do sometimes"
Harder for some than others. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
That's why I decided to use my name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
I saw that tj has said nothing in a while. She knows what to do, I can only leave it in God's hands.
"Should they put all their focus into God? I know that God should be our number 1, but at the same time for a marriage in trouble... couldn't that end up having a negative impact?"
Proverbs says that when a man is trying to please God, God makes even his worst enemies to be at peace with him.
When you were a kid, did you ever walk in the woods at night? It can be so scary. Every tree and bush looks like a wild animal waiting to pounce. A tiny vole scampering through the brush sounds like a heard of buffalo. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
But turn on a flashlight and it quickly seems much easier. The light illuminates the path and shows us in detail what lies ahead. As long as we keep the light on the path, the rest of it seems to dissolve around us. The light helps us to focus on where we are going and lets us see the goal. It basically gives us the hope we need to keep going in the right direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
If we point the light into the woods, the phantoms quickly return. We aren't looking in the right direction, we are looking at our circumstances and where we are instead of where we are going. Keeping the light on the trail keeps US pointed in the right direction and focused on the goal, rather than the circumstances we find ourselves in.
The ultimate plan for marriage comes from God. It was His invention, not ours. He took woman from out of man so that without her, he is incomplete. He made women from man so that in him she would find fulfilment and purpose. He brought the two together and they became one.
Likewise, God made us in His image. It is in Him we find our purpose and completeness. Without Him, we wander aimlessly in the woods, but when we keep our focus on Him, we can see the way we should go and are able to focus on the goal.
When both husband and wife are seeking God and His plan for their individual lives, the nearer to Him they get, the closer they are to each other. So it isn't trading God for a healthy marriage; seeking one leads to the other. It is by keeping our focus on Him we gain the strength to continue toward the goal. That goal is the marriage He has in store for us, a better one than we could ever conjure up in our imaginations.
Marriage is a metaphor for our relationship with Him.
By Him, all things are held together and have their meaning. (Col chapter 1) This applies not just to the world, but us as well and even to marriage.
What God has put together... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I Saw the light
Just like a blind man
I wandered alone.
Worries and fears
I claimed for my own.
Then like the blind man
That God gave back his sight,
Praise the Lord
I saw the light.
I saw the light.
I saw the light.
No more in darkness;
No more at night.
Now I'm so happy;
No sorrow in sight.
Praise the Lord
I saw the light.
Mark
What God has put together...
Mark, you posted that verse immediately on my 'Mr. Romance' saga and inspired me to write the whole 5 chapters.....remember? Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Lost 'n Found (aka "LNF")....how does that sound LITW?
Would you two post to it if I started a thread discussing how we all came up with our screen names? Mark, you would be especially welcome since you're brave enough to use your real identity. Lost, you might gain insight into the name process since you're into meanings.....if you wanna start a 'name' thread, fine by me.
Ace
Ace,
So now we're gonna play the old name game.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Mr. Mark,
Why do you want Lost to change her name?
Why did you chooose your original name....'BetrayedHub' was it?
Then why did you decide to go with your real name and birthyear...if that's what 1952 stands for.....?
....Or does it stand for something else.....like how many times you've felt like going fishing (in the last week?)
...How many words are in your first fishing chapter?
...The time of day when you gave your wife your first kiss?
...Number of boards on your vacation cabin?
...Didn't see any ground rules to your name game.....so I'll help make 'em up as we go.
I do have a suggestion, though.....could you CAP the title THE NAME GAME to emphasize its new theme for the weekend?
Great idea to start a NAME thread, wish I'd thought of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
"Ace in a Bucket"
Ace,
You did think of it and I thought you might have started it by now...
Or are you waiting for me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
As for LITW's name, I have felt from the start that a true believer in Christ is not lost and, though still living in this world is not a citizen of it any longer. If she never changes her name, it is perfectly fine with me. Any time I bring it up, it is mostly tongue in cheek any way.
My original screen name was to stand for Betrayed Hubby, which is how I felt when I first arrived. I used it to remain anonymous. I eventually realized that the only people I was protecting were the ones that I felt had betrayed me.
I also had begun to refer people to this site that were also having difficulties in their marriage. I knew that some of them were reading, even if they never posted and thought that by actually knowing who I was and the situation I was attempting to overcome, it would somehow give them the courage and hope to repair their marriages.
And yes, it was the year I was born....
Mark
hmm... I think a name thread is a great idea.....
funny thing Mark... your little sentence on in the world but not of the world was my initial thoght for changing my name.... but that along with everything else i have thought of is too darn long.... ITWBNOTW.... see.... LNF does sound like a good one... I also thought of Lost In The Word or Lost In His Word.... so i am still brainstorming on my end....
LITW,
Did you follow my "answer" to your question from yesterday?
Mark
Hi Mark,
I did see it and ended up posting it to her... I think you said exactly what i was trying to say, but in a way it could be understood....
It was a nice reminder for me too!
Maybe all those years of attending that Sunday School convention paid off after all...
There are three things you need to do to be sure someone understands something you are trying to get across to them.
1) Tell them what you are going to tell them
2) Tell them
3) Tell them what you told them
A successful SS lesson has to have three parts:
1) A hook
2) A look
3) The book
If I simply answer "Yes," a followup question is almost always forthcoming. Instead I try to say "Yes' by stating why that is my answer through an example or analogy of some type. When I'm done, the person knows my answer and also my reasons for it.
Jesus often taught by giving examples. He seldom taught a lesson without first telling a story. The story gave people a reference point that allowed them to get his meaning because they had something to relate it to.
Have I given enough examples or would you like more?
Think three...
Mark
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> is this where I should just say yes?
I completely understand.... the story or analagy is the hook into the point.... the point is what you are trying to get accross and then to make sure they got it you cover the facts one last time.... Makes sense to me!
[color:"red"] I always knew you were a fast learner. [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Mark
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thanks!!!
[color:"blue"]Show it. [/color]
Use an example or story to show the concept or point in action or at work.
[color:"red"]State it. [/color]
Explain the concept in enough detail that it is not misunderstood.
[color:"green"]Apply it. [/color]
Make it stick by giving a practical application that is relevant to the listeners.
As easy as one, two, three.
Mark
LITW,
I haven't seen anything from you for a couple of days and just thought I'd check in to see how things are going.
How was Resurrection Sunday (don't like calling it Easter, due to where that celebration comes from) around your place? Company? Travel? Anything significant take place?
Mark
Hi Mark,
Never thought I'd see the master writer make a typo ("due to" verses "do to")
How was your Resurrection Sunday, Mark? Lookin' forward to the next fishin' chapter as we've got a possible Salmon BBQ going in the "Hate it here, Love it here on MB" thread.
Ace
LITW,
I was editing it as you were reading it I guess... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
I never make mistakes. I thought I did once, but I was wrong... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Let me start again.
How was YOUR weekend? How are YOU doing? Are YOU making any progress in YOUR sitch? (Not letting you off the hook this time) Are YOUR feelings returning?
My weekend was tolerable. Sunday morning was great at church and we had company for dinner all afternoon. BIL got called away to work just as we started sitting down for dinner.
We had some previous A fallout that had to be dealt with this weekend and yesterday, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> but things are going well, I think.
We have reservations at a church based marriage conference the end of the month and I just made the hotel reservations this afternoon.
Now...back to YOU...
Mark
Sorry to tj, but Mark, what is the issue with the term Easter? I'm feeling woefully ingnorant...
MAZ
MAZ,
How are things going with you, BTW?
There has been a spring celebration with eggs, bunnies and chicks for centuries. All of them were celebrations of the fertility goddess, whether known as Aphrodite, or Easter. the roots seem to be based in pre-Babylonian culture in the area once known as upper Mesopotamia. (This is where Abram - later called Abraham, came from)
In the early days of the church, many pagan festivals were usurped by the church and new names and/or meanings were taught in place of the originals. This even happened when the church came to the new world. South American feasts and festivals are today celebrated as birthdays or other notable days of various saints.
Thus we have our late winter celebration of Christ's birth, though all indications are that it was not in the dead of winter at all. This was once the time of year that Northern Europeans celebrated "Winter Solstice" and Mediterranean cultures celebrated Saturnalia.
The concept of Lent coincides with the day before its start being a celebration, now called "Fat Tuesday" that has its beginnings in the festival for the Roman god Bacchus which was celebrated on March 16th and 17th. It was a cult that had women in places of leadership and was alleged to have committed all sorts of crimes including a plot to overthrow the Roman government. Today colleges across the world use the time to celebrate Bacchanalia, which is used as an excuse for all sorts of excess.
So we raise h377 on Tuesday and give it all up for God on Wednesday by repenting in sack cloth and ashes. (A common custom in the middle east in biblical times)
Which leads us to Easter, the spring celebration of fertility...I have no problem with calling it Easter, as long as the meaning is clear, but Easter was one of those ancient fertility goddesses and I question using the name for something as significant as the celebration of Christ's resurrection. To allow it to become about baskets full of brightly decorated eggs and other early symbols of fertility likens all of the pagan religions with Christianity and gives credence to the naysayers who claim that Christ was just a man and there is no difference between the ancient religions and Christianity. JMO
The reason we celebrate the resurrection when we do has to do with its proximity to Passover. The others were just things that got usurped by the early church so that believers could have reasons to party along with everyone else (Actually so that they could make the pagan feasts a way of proclaiming Christ's birth, death and resurrection, but the people used it as an excuse to party)
Mark
Hi Mark!!!!
First off let me say.... it was Ace not me who caught you.... though i would like to take the credit..... wasnt me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
As for the whole "easter" term.... are you refering to it being a pagan holiday or is there more to it?
Tolerable is a great word.... i have kinda felt in a funk the past few daysand just dont feel to be connecting at any level anywhere.... Friday night i went out with some of my girlfriends and had a pretty good time....normally i wouldnt even start heading home from one of those gatherings until 2ish at the earliest... but i called my husband around 11:30 and told him i would be heading out in an hour.. so he was happy about that....
saturday.... I woke up and ran off to study group (I am finishing up my bachelors... only a couple more classes to go!!) by the time i got home it was after lunch time and hubby had ran off to run errands and then work in the yard.... that evening we ended up having a double date with my husbands cousin and new girlfriend which went nice.... but rather than joining them for a movie too we decided to head back home....
For some reason Sunday didnt feel right to me.... I am not sure what it was, but it didnt seem like the day of Christ's resurrection celebration... H and I were asked to greet thus we showed up early in order to be there for everyone... church was packed which was amazing!!! we were so full we had to stand in the back!!!! The pastor did a great sermon of how christ died for all of our sins past present and future.... but i didnt seem to connect... it was as if i was there but not... does that make sense? well once service was over we headed out to H's parents house (about an hour away) to spend the day out there.... H is the oldest of three boys which all are married.... middle brother has a son (14 months old) whom everyone just adores..... as the day proceeded it just seemed like any other day.... im not sure what i was exactly expecting as far as it being different but it just wasnt right... sometime as dinner was being put on the table the youngest brother made a comment about the nephew that was not very positive (mind you the youngest brother (YB) is 27).... the baby isnt walking yet and YB thinks that it is weird.... well as i was there sitting with baby making sure he was eatting all his food.... i kinda got upset... I ended up scolding YB and said that he really shouldnt say things like that because all babies are different and develop at their own pace.... when things like that are said it can end up giving the parents a complex..... everything was fine there was no huge discussion about it but i was really bothered..... H and I left that evening and as we pulled out of the driveway i just started crying..... nose running type crying.... poor H had no idea what had gotten into me..... at that point i expressed my hurt about what his YB said and how it was wrong and then went on to say how i felt it was wrong that his MB the father of the baby didnt even defend his own son..... continuing to cry i went on to say how am i supposed to have my own child if i cant even handle small issues with my nephew and what a horrible overprotective freak of a mom i would be... blah blah blah....
well my H was so sweet and just kept rubbing my leg as he drove and started to share how these exact things were going to make me a great mom one day and that at least we are learning from our nephew rather than our own kid... WOW what insight my H has.... and to think i could have lost him!!!!!! well after crying for a good hour by the time i got home i was exhausted and just looked wonderful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> we ended up doing out nightly devotional and prayer and going to sleep... since the great work week was approaching....
yesterday and today i have still had the same empty feeling that started Sunday.... i just can knock it.... it just seems that something is wrong and i cant place my finger on it.... i have been lurking here all day yesterday and today, but have no desire to add input or help anyone.... i just really dont know what this funk is.....
so you know Mark.... i guess this is my long way or writting i dont know how im doing today....
LITW
LITW,
In Eastern Europe, most names for the day of Christ's resurrection actually refer to it as such, either calling it Resurrection Day or Sunday or simply Resurrection. The word Easter comes from old English and Germanic Oestern, which was the goddess of the dawn or springtime.
As for it feeling like any other day, that was kind of my take on this year. It had more to do with depression over a one year anniversary of sorts surrounding Dday almost a year ago. But that's another story.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
As for missing the fact that it was Ace that caught my typo....Doh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
What I said about not making mistakes...Forget that, will ya? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
And regarding your feelings or lack thereof...Have you been checked for depression? Have you had a complete physical recently? I know you still have feelings, you exhibited that Sunday night, right?
Just shootin' in the dark. I don't know what else to say, other just keep working at it and accept the love your H shows you. Eventually, you will "feel" love again. It may never again be Stage 1 love, but you will know it's there.
This took me over an hour to type. I had customers come in and am now late getting home (again...<SIGH>... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Better RUN!
Mark
LITW,
I think that when you feel lost, placing yourself really helps...and you weren't feeling lost...were you feeling differently than you expected to feel?
Seems to me you were staying aware of finding out where you were at...good self-care. And you nailed why you cried...why you had anger...from fear. Wowsers...how cool is that?
What I perceive is that you fought judgment with judgment...and funnily enough, that doesn't nullify...it just doubles. I don't know why. I see YB as being caring and concerned...and brave. I see you as being caring, concerned and brave, too. And if MB wasn't concerned about his son walking or not, he wouldn't need to defend, would he?
Do you really judge yourself as a control freak when you think of motherhood? What you said, about every child developing at their own pace, in their own way, doesn't sound control freakish to me.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
A balance...parents can enjoy their babies so much they don't see with outside eyes...YB's question may have just been that...challenging his own assumptions aloud. No big discussion ensued. Wasn't a day-breaker. For you, it had significance.
You can find that in your future fears, if you choose to be a mother...and to you as you were as a child. Great to ponder...you felt upset...which wasn't nothing...would you say you're being present and pondering?
Empty can be lack of signals...or crossing (nullifying) of a lot of signals. Did you feel something released in your tears? Approached or voiced through them? Received from your DH's actions?
I say--hat's off to your own awareness of not knowing definitively what you are feeling today...are you open to knowing? What if it isn't something wrong or right?
I'm just a gal who loves to ponder...annoying, eh? ROFL...just kidding. I can annoy myself and delight in myself at the same time. Talk about a funny feeling.
LA
Mark and LA,
Thank you for both your inputs.... It is always nice to hear what others perspectives are into a particular situation.
Mark... as far as the depression goes... yes i have been checked... and yes i do have it.... at one point they had me on four times the regular dosage of Lexapro but it just wasnt helping but last summer they switched me to something else and finally about 4 months ago got the dosage right..... this was actually a hard issue for my H to accept and we sure had our discussions about antidepressants... but he has finally come around to understanding that i am not broken, but my body lacks something that this medication helps fill.
I appreciate you taking so much time to respond to me.... and i do know that i need to just keep on with everything i have learned and that as time continue to goes by it does seem to get easier... though all of us have our set backs
LA,
It was really nice to actually know why i was upset and crying and I did see how far i had come as far as being able to pinpoint what was going on with my emotions. as you say what you perceived from H's brothers i can see that too, but because of the abuse i went through as a child i tend to color what people say sometimes.... that is something i do need to work on. i have to take what people say at face value and not put my own opinions and perceptions into what i thought they were saying... and again.... ask clarifying questions <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
as far as me and motherhood... only God knows how i really will be, but i do see myself as being overprotective... and maybe a bit of a control freak lion.... you know... ready to pounce at the instance i feel anyone or anything trying to attack my cub.... but as i shared with my own mom what happened she shared that there are times for everything... time to fight and time to learn... so i pray when that time comes that God molds me into the mother he wants me to be.
you said "Empty can be lack of signals...or crossing (nullifying) of a lot of signals. Did you feel something released in your tears? Approached or voiced through them? Received from your DH's actions?"
I did feel something released in my tears but i dont think that it had to do with the empty feeling i was having... the tears and future fears were expressed and my DH's actions were so caring and considerate it did touch my heart and helped me to feel better... but the empty feeling is still there... i really cant put my finger on it.... i am still trying to figure that part out because it is still lingering.... but i am open to knowing... i just dont know how to figure it out..... but at the same time I do understand that it just could be a calmness surrounding me that hasnt been here for so long that i am not sure what it is..... and if that be the case.... well then i will just need to accept and appreciate this time... right?
Thanks guys!!!!
LITW
{{{{{{{{{ Lost 'n Found}}}}}}}}}}}}
(((((((((Lost in the World)))))))))
I agree with Mark....I think it's time to change your name ---how about LNF temporarily---just until something you're entirely thrilled with strikes your fancy? Just an idea...
I told Mishes about perceptions and expectations that create feelings of happiness within. Identity could have a factor in such perceptions. For instance, I feel better about myself as "Ace" but feel a bit 'draggy' when I think of myself as "Ace in a Bucket". Am I the same person....yes..... does my perception change? Maybe.
Could "Lost in the World" be creating a bit of a 'drag' for you as you consider your involvement on MB forums? Just something to think about.
At any rate, I for one miss your input on the boards and would love to be able to help drive that funk away soon!
Ace
Thanks Ace!!! I needed that hug!!!! I tried to change it to LNF but someone is already using it... imagine that..... so this will work for me for right now... and when God decides to strike me with an Epiphany then I will change it to that.... for all out there... I am still lurking and praying... but for some reason i just dont have any words right now *sigh*
LIC
Be patient, it will come. Glad to hear from you. I like your new name and tag line.
Mishes asked for links to spying threads so I know she could use some old-fashioned encouragement if you're up to it.
Thanks,
Ace
PS What's the significance of "think three" Mark?
LIC,
I like it. And the tag is great, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ace,
Just see earlier posts on this thread. It has to do with a teaching method I learned years ago. (Just back up a page or two and you'll see it.)
Mark
thanks guys!!!! I just really dont know what going on with me! But i appreciate the encouragements!
LIC
Mark,
I remember the 3 steps....but it's been a few pages since you changed the title......sorry, I forgot.
(I do remember what the second thing is to go after the mind goes.....I just don't want to say it.)
LostinChrist.....keep on keepin'on....!
Ace
Just checkin in...
Doing pretty good, things going ok...
New IC is good (old one moved)...
Only thing bugging me is I have been dreaming about WW alot as of late, I really don't know why that is...
Anyone else experinece this? It is disconcerning...
I am pertty solidly into acceptance that the M is over it is to bad but such is life.
I think I will be however ok in the long run...
Beleiver is you phone operational?
Jim
jim/ken.... can you help me out and refresh my memory.... are you posting to whom on this thread..... my mind is a bit fuzzy and just dont want you to think you are being neglected.... LIC
okay Mark.... I feel like im yearning to stray! What is going on??!!!?!??!?!?!
I have been doing great! We have been doing great! We have taken up new hobbies and have been enjoying each other... a lot! So what is my deal!!! We are going on vacation saturday and really everything is going great.... i am happy.... or so i think.....
so why all of a sudden and i getting this urge to want to run the opposite direction.... why all of a sudden is the little voice in my head saying oh come on... just a little bit of fun....
I need help being handcuffed in place!!!!! Mark.... what is going on?!?!?!
LIC,
I posted to you on your thread a few minutes ago.
Sorry I wasn't here this morning, I was dressed in a really snazzy set of Nomex coveralls <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> out in the refinery working on radios.
Is this where we do the right thing because of commitment? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Do we ignore the devil because we made a promise to God? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Can we call on our Lord Christ Jesus to deliver us from temptation? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
What about going to our spouse and saying, "I'm having a really miserable day today. Could you just hold me and tell me that it will be alright?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
See Jer 29:11.
Just a couple of suggestions...
Mark
Thanks mark... I got you message on the other thread too..... I do know that God can deliver i do.... but man i thought i was having some downer days last week... well those were downer days, but man i just feel like i want to be out on the prowl! I mean come on!!! What is wrong with that?!??! I just convinced my H to get a new motorcycle so we could do some riding and he has been getting really nice gear and i am so excited... we are leaving to go on vacation next week! Things are great! What the heck do i want to prowl around for?!?!? I know there isnt anything as good as i got!!! Argh..... i just am so frustrated!!!!
I know LIC,
That infernal conflict within!
Drive me crazy too. Normally when things are going well relationship wise, I can talk myself out of giving in to any urges to make contact or anything, I have the strength to do it. But, when storm winds blow at home, it makes it sooooo much harder.
My mind knows what's right...and I'm committed to doing that. But why is it so hard??
I understand. Mark is right, we need to ask for strength. Sometimes I forget to do that...sad, but true...
you can email me if you'd like, it's on my profile...
it just seems that my mind is racing a million different directions... i try to stop, breath, and focus but the focus goes to the wrong thing.... kinda like in the old days that y shaped tool that was supposed to help you find the water spring.... you hold on to it and it is supposed to lead you to the water..... well mine wants to lead me anywhere but the water.... maybe my y tool is leading me to the patron well!!!!
Mark.... I hope all is going well in your court.... mine.... im surviving... but struggling.... I never got a response from you.... did i leave you speechless?
LIC
LIC,
When have I ever been speechless?
I've just been busy while at work, not even here at times, and have tried to stay away from here at night when I am home with the family. If I stay up late enough, I might come here after my W goes to bed.
The search for self worth from others is a drive that cannot be satisfied. Once that road is started down, it requires the stimulus over and over again in order to feed the need. Find your fulfilment within yourself and in the value that you know God has placed upon you. Christ died for you. How significant is that?
The desire for feeling desired or sought after can be strong. It is a need that must be fulfilled by only your husband. That is the boundary that must not be crossed to avoid adultery. That is the one that got crossed before. You cannot protect your LB$ from having deposits made, so you must not allow yourself to be in a position that will let other men make large deposits. The bank is always open, so only your H can be a customer that can make those deposits.
When you can identify what it is that other men can give you, what it is that they do that makes you feel loved or have a greater sense of self worth, then you can attempt to teach your H to meet this need in the same way. The alternative is to allow other men to meet this need and repeat the cycle of betrayal all over once more.
Or you can take a hard look at what your H already does for you and see that he does love you and is showing you his love, but maybe not in the way you wish him to. Since it is more difficult to accept LB$ deposits in a currency that to us has no relevancy, this can cause resentment to build up and you will go into withdrawal and no longer accept his deposits. Again, the cycle repeats itself.
When was the last time you guys revisited the ENQ? Keep in mind that ENs can change over time. In fact, right after Dday, any BS might consider O&H as their top need, but, especially men, might within weeks revert back to SF or RC.
Have you two read FIL/SIL? It explains the basic concepts in detail and then after explaining the ENs and introducing the ENQ has both of you stop reading, fill out the ENQ and then there is a form for you to fill out and both sign promising to actually meet the ENs you just identified.
I'm finding that there needs to be a balance between discussing the relationship, working within the MB framework and actually doing the things that are talked about here. The stronger effort must be put into the doing for it all to come together. Dr Harley's stated goal is for each couple to not only have a committed relationship, but one that is one of love for each other and passion as well, long after the honeymoon. That must become our goal as well.
The answer isn't on this web site or in any of the books. It was there all along, but we chose to not accept it. The answer is to actually do the things that Dr Harley says work to restore the passion that has gone AWOL and claim it as our own once more. Meeting ENs will never be accomplished by talking about them. A couple will never fall in love all over again by discussing what went wrong, only by doing it right from that point forward. (OK, I'm also talking to myself and a few lurkers here as well as to you)
Oy! I think I'm starting to sound like LA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Mark... you said it all and i even now before you wrote it all that i knew it all.... *sigh* but it doesnt make it any easier.... that is what is so hard to deal with.... i mean overall... things are great... we are both doing great and spending a lot of quality time together etc etc etc..... but then this little fire starts inside of me... and the little voice starts talking inside..... i say no no no no and the little yes yes yes... and it goes back and forth for a few days.... now im here feeling like im trying to get lost!!!! EEK!! Cant I just step on his head and stop him from picking on me!?!?! Gosh darn!!!!
LIC,
You need to have a plan for when those feelings come up. That plan cannot be to merely grit your teeth and resist the urge. As you've stated, you and your H are doing well. What happens when things are not going well and the urge to run comes along?
When those feelings come, you must to have a way to fall back to a safe position. This might be a close friend who you can call or it can be your H. It just can never be a close male friend, under any circumstances. I'd even rule out a pastor as this person, though maybe his wife could be the one if she were willing to take on the assignment.
But you have to know what to do before it happens because when you are in the midst of all the emotions at the time, you will not be thinking correctly. The time to decide what to do is when all is well, not in the middle of a storm.
When you feel like running, commit to running to your H.
Mark
LIC,
Haven't heard anything from you all day. Just wondering how you are doing...
Mark
Hi Mark! im doing okay.... I had a rough night and H was pretty upset with me.... we talked it out this morning and things are better... but i still need to figure out a plan to get me out of these slumps when they come around.... because i know this isnt going to be the last one!... Thank you for asking... i really appreciate it!
LIC
Hi Mark!
Just wanted to bump the thread and let you know I am back.... though not very good.... the ring came off yesterday and I think we are going to be moving forward with a seperation.... both of us are tired and I cant pretend anymore.
LIC,
That is the saddest news I have heard in a while...
I take it vacation didn't go well.
I wish I had something to say to make it better for both of you. I hate to see anyone give up, but I know it happens all the time.
I'm so sorry...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
Mark
Mark,
I never thought in a million years that this is what my life would be..... I try to sit and wonder what went wrong and how to try to fix it and have been trying chance after chance yearning for my heart to feel something..... but still i feel nothing...
below is an email i sent to a friend yesterday morning still arguing and trying to convince myself otherwise..... I have also realized that I do not have any respect or love for myself due to the choice I made and that I have resorted to inappropriate vices to help numb the pain when i feel it gets to hard.... this is not right and I know that I must change myself because no one else can change me but me.
Dear "friend"
oh boy.... vacation.... the weather and water were beautiful and a perfect place for me to argue with God in some sense..... my heart has been heavy as you know and really it didnt come back any lighter..... on the flight home we watched a movie called " the painted veil" twice.... and it really made me think..... the plot summary was:
The Painted Veil is a love story set in the 1920s that tells the story of a young English couple, Walter (Edward Norton), a middle class doctor and Kitty (Naomi Watts), an upper-class woman, who get married for the wrong reasons and relocate to Shanghai, where she falls in love with someone else. When he uncovers her infidelity, in an act of vengeance, he accepts a job in a remote village in China ravaged by a deadly epidemic, and takes her along. Their journey brings meaning to their relationship and gives them purpose in one of the most remote and beautiful places on earth.
Or there is this one too.....
Kitty Fane (Watts) is a frivolous young English woman who longs for romance and excitement, trapped in a loveless marriage to a staid Shanghai researcher. When her husband (Norton) learns she has had an affair, he volunteers to fight a cholera epidemic in China's war-torn interior. Dr. Fane forces his wife to accompany him on the difficult and hazardous journey, endangering her life in the process...
basically it really hit me!
but the interesting thing in the movie was that the husband at least did show interest or initiation... and in the middle of the epedemic they both started helping orphans and such which made them see things differently... kinda not so much about them but the big picture.... so i guess i need to move to shanghai and help with some epedemic! I told my friend that and she said that I may not need to go to that extreme..... but whatever floats my boat.... Who knows anymore..... As i sat and thought this weekend I realized that part of the problem is i want a confident man yet with some sensitivity.
we went to mexico with another couple and as the other wife and I were laying on the beach she turns to me and says.... you know im kinda tired of trying to help you without you fixing anything..... it was a bit of a stab..... like man if you only knew all that i have been trying to do!
Then yesterday Greg and I were just trying to relax and he decideds to apologize to me for expressing that he dislikes when i hang out with my single friends.... i got so upset.... he will do anything to make me happy...but by doing so... he has no backbone! I felt like almost walking out!!! I told him once again not to change his feeling to try to make me happy to stick to his guns but as long as i am happy he doesnt care!!!! it is so hard..... because there is my human side and then the side that wants to stay on God's good side....i know that God's love is bigger than anything...... but then i think am i giving up too soon... do i just need a little more faith? but then i think about the whole backbone thing and i get so frustrated! i am too strong, independant and confident i think to be in a relationship! i was sitting and thinking yesterday.... if my decision is fleshy self versus staying on God's side...but if I stay with Greg will I stay on God's side by staying faithful to him and being happy with him? If I stay with him is it for myself or everyone else? i just wish that i was confident enough to make a decision.... with out dealing with the fear of the unknown..... that is what scares me!!! Then there is the thinking of if I make a decision that doesn't make me happy am I really "living"? No matter what either way is hard...If I stay with him, I need to find a way to be happy and for both of us to have our needs met. If I leave then I am going to have to deal with the struggle of being alone and starting a new life. the funny or sad thing is the first one scares me more than the second!! Honestly, I sometimes feel I have already left him. My heart hasn't been there in a long time, I havent been happy for a long time and that cheats both of us as well as God. Then i ponder how long am I willing to wait on a miracle? i think 7 years is about as much as i got in me for a miracle
you know the funny thing is... my sister just moved to auburn too..... maybe God new before i did..... go figure!!!! or is it the devil at work giving my more opportunities to screw things up!
so... I think that is pretty much everything I have been thinking....... Thank you for emailing me and keeping me on track! I full heartedly appreciate every inch of the love support and encouragement you have given!
LIC,
I know you've been working at this for a long time now, but how long have you been doing the right things?
Has H read HN/HN, or better still FIL/SIL?
Has he been actually trying to meet your ENs?
Could your meds maybe need another tuneup?
Just searching here....
In the movies it always seems to work out. The handsome leading man (strong but silent) carries the sexy leading lady (usually against her wishes) off into the sunset and they live happily ever after.
But only after they figure out that they were meant to be together, acknowledge their love, which cannot be resisted or denied and fall into each others arms as the scene fades to darkness.
But this is real life and Errol and Kate are dead...
I propose a sequel.
The scene opens with three kids running through the kitchen. She is on the phone with him as he says he's working late...again. She says the phone company called and wants their money. He says the car had a flat and he had to pay to get it fixed. The kids return and the bowl that contained the meatloaf she was preparing crashes to the floor. Her BFF arrives and listens a while and then says, "I don't know what you ever saw in him."
Now that sounds like real life to me.
The next scene opens with the two of them in bed. Before turning out the lights they take each others hands into their own and begin to pray. "Thank you Lord for getting us through today. For all that we have, our kids, our home and each other, we give You thanks." The scene fades to black and as the picture vanishes she says, "Turn out the light, will ya?" and he says, "Yes, Dear" and sighs.
It ain't perfect, but I'm still workin' on it.
Let's see if we have anything in common...
Married too young?
Feel like we married for the wrong reasons to begin with?
Thought everything would work out on its own?
Got tired of trying to change our spouse?
Got tired of making changes to ourselves that seemed to go totally unnoticed?
Settled into a marriage of "to much trouble to try to fix it and I don't want to be seen as a failure?"
Anything you want to add to MY list?
While you were away in the sunny climate of Mexico, hanging out on that miserable beach, W and I attended a conference in Indianapolis based on "The Song of Songs" aka the Song of Solomon. (
www.tommynelsononline.com)
We learned a lot.
We had a good time.
We still have issues.
But we're not done yet.
Mark
LIC,
Egads, I've been where you are so many times I have lost count...
Being ahead of you a few years, I can tell you this...
You can't let movies make decisions for you. You can find "a message" in just about every movie out there, but movies can't and shouldn't tell you how to live your life. The media is responsible for a lot of the reason women today "think" they're unhappy. Real life doesn't work that way.
And of course, I agree with everything Mark the wise said...
None of us can predict the future. There is just no way to tell whether someday you will find the happiness you seek with your DH or not...
My honest opinion though is that a lot of the issues you are dealing with are things that you need to work on with yourself and have little to do with your H (I know, I've been there and still am on occasion...) and they will be there regardless of whether you are married to your DH or not.
What I have learned (from wise people here, like LA and Pep)...when in such doubt, don't make an irrevocable decision.
I'll let you in on a secret too...7 years into my M, I would've bet the farm that we wouldn't make it to our 18th anniversary, yet next month, here we are...
So, I'm pretty happy now, but not just because my DH changed, he did...but because I have grown and changed too.
LostInChrist - are you up for some blunt talking?
If you are a believer, then start acting like one.
If not, do whatever YOU want to do.
Then there is the thinking of if I make a decision that doesn't make me happy am I really "living"? No matter what either way is hard...If I stay with him, I need to find a way to be happy and for both of us to have our needs met.
"Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there." And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He begain to be sorrowful and and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay her and watch with Me."
He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."
Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Matthew 26:36-40 NKJV)
"Nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.""Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation." "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." L.I.C., which of these is you?
I try to sit and wonder what went wrong and how to try to fix it and have been trying chance after chance yearning for my heart to feel something..... but still i feel nothing...
YOU "feel nothing?!?"
Why don't you spend some time reading Matthew 26:36-56 and Mark 14:32-50? Meditate a little about what Jesus felt and what HIS response to God was.
"Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that is must happen thus?" (Matt.26:53-54 NKJV)
What part of God's promises to believers do you reject?
What part of Jesus' sacrifice for YOU do you reject?
"I know that I must change myself because no one else can change me but me." You are wrong, L.I.C., you HAVE BEEN changed by God and all you need to do is to be OBEDIENT to His commands and teaching.
Why won't you?
Fear?
You fear God?
You fear that recovery and walking with God might take some WORK on your part?
You fear whether or not God can be trusted?
Then yesterday Greg and I were just trying to relax and he decideds to apologize to me for expressing that he dislikes when i hang out with my single friends.... i got so upset.... he will do anything to make me happy...but by doing so... he has no backbone!
Greg has no "backbone?" You've never been a BETRAYED SPOUSE, have you? You have no idea of the BACKBONE needed to even attempt recovery, let alone the humble submission to God in order to be able to forgive as Christ has forgiven our own sins, do you?
am too strong, independant and confident i think to be in a relationship!
No you are not any of those things. You are a sinner. You are a "do it yourselfer" who tries to do things without God.
L.I.C., WHO bought and paid for
you with HIS life?
Who stands ready to take you back as his wife, because he was also "bought and paid for" by someone who willingly submitted His will to the Father's will while He was hated and despised by the very people He was accepting death to redeem?
This whining and moaning is NOT worthy of His sacrifice.
We are talking ETERNITY here and you are moaning about ..."oh gee, what if I actually do follow God in obedience and my life doesn't turn out to be a fairytale?"
L.I.C., I am going to leave you with one TRUTH. God is faithful to all of His promises.
That includes the "triangle of marriage" promise. If you don't know what that is, that is part of your problem and you need to ask about it. If you do know what it means, then why don't you believe and trust in God?
Mark, MAZ, and FH
Thank you all for your responses. I respect each one of your opinions and appreciate the honesty.
As for the movie and what I took from it... I took that until the characters were completely broken and shattered then that is when things could start to be repaired.... and....That having expectations for/of someone that werent there even to begin with is not right.
as far as me fearing God... this I do
as far as me trusting God... this I do
God has just changed my focus.... He has changed it from bohoo my life is horrible to how can I become that offering that He wants me to become? I have put my focus back on Christ as my number one and have realized that no one other than He can fill my needs....
Humans are sinners... thus they will let you down... God is working something amazing in me that only He knows what will come of it... but what I can say is... that for once I finally have a peace that passes understanding and it is really nice to have surrendered my burden over to my maker.
LIC
LIC...
I get what you're saying about the movie, that's not so bad a lesson.
As for this quote of yours...
God has just changed my focus.... He has changed it from bohoo my life is horrible to how can I become that offering that He wants me to become? I have put my focus back on Christ as my number one and have realized that no one other than He can fill my needs....
Humans are sinners... thus they will let you down... God is working something amazing in me that only He knows what will come of it... but what I can say is... that for once I finally have a peace that passes understanding and it is really nice to have surrendered my burden over to my maker.
I think you should print this out and stick it on your computer, your fridge, wherever. These are the kinds of insights that easily get pushed aside and forgotten when our selfish side wants to come out and take over. I'm working on the same thing, sista!
Maybe print out the posts that really speak to you and keep them somewhere and everytime you feel like you may be slipping, go back and read them again. I find a lot of peace in doing that.
You are wonderful and strong.
You can do this.
oh thank you so much!!! And that is exactly what I am doing!!
Love,
LIC
LIC,
I've been missing in action most of the day but wanted to check in and see how the rest of your day has gone.
Have you taken a look at the website I gave you? I have no idea where you live, but if there is going to be one of the conferences near you, see if the two of you can go.
They also have a video series, but I have to tell you, being there together makes a lot of difference.
The speaker at our weekend was a pastor from Texas who was one of the most amazing speakers I have ever heard. We sat through a total of six hours of listening to him and I could have listened for six more. His delivery was such that he'd be relating a story that had everyone laughing. People actually fell to the floor from their seats laughing a few times. Then he'd get to his point and there would be dead silence within about a second.
There were about a thousand people there and yet he seemed to be able to pick specific people out of the audience, relate to them by name, which he remembered in later sessions, even over night, and I'm sure that at times everyone there felt he was talking directly to them.
And just as a reminder, if you haven't read it yet today...Jer 29:11...
Praying for you (both of you)...
Mark
Mark,
I did check the website and it doesnt seem that this specific seminar will be coming to our area... but my husband and I have been to one put on my Family Life Today... which seems to be about the same type of conference.
The rest of my day yesterday was fantastic! up to this point i did not understand what Peace that passes understanding ment... but now i do! So many times I have been or felt that I could go no longer but the Lord still kept me going and allowed me to stick on the same course.
This last summer I spent a weekend with my Mom and Godmother in tears just wanting to give up (one of many many many times) and as these two women that are near and dear to my heart and very strong prayer warriors were uplifting me and my burden I remember my Godmother telling me.... you are not done until God releases you..... my response at that time was how will i know?!? She said... You will know.... God brought that back to me yesterday along with this peace that I have not felt for years!
I will look up Jer 29.... and please do not feel discouraged for me.... I have not made any permanant decision.... what I have done is changed the focus to what it should have been all along.... God.... He is my refuge and my strength... He is the one to hold me and nourish me.... He is the one that I am to be an offering to.... How and what I need to do in order to continue to have Christ as my main focus daily will be taken step by step, day by day..... But I honestly, and truly am doing GREAT!!!
LIC
LIC,
Keep checking back since they don't always have things posted a long time in advance.
FLT has some great stuff including email devotionals and romantic hints and tips. Another good source for help in healing is newlife.com. They have individual seminars including Healing Is a Choice and other great stuff.
See if their radio show is on in your area (New Life Live). A year ago I managed my lunch hour to correspond with the broadcast and just listening helped a lot.
Focus On the Family also has resources on infidelity and marriage as well as their sister site troublewith.com. They can also give specific recommendations for counseling in your area.
Have you heard the story of the man pushing the rock in the path? If not, I can relate it to you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mark
LIC,
While you have your Bible out,check out Psalm 5:11 & 12 and Psalm 102:12. Also see Joshua 1:5 and Isaiah 57:15.
Mark
Mark.... Will check out the verses and I would love to hear the story about the man pushing to rock.
LIC
LIC,
A man walks along a path with Jesus. As they come to a place where the trail narrows, they encounter a large boulder, too big to climb over and with no room to go around it.
Jesus tells the man to push the rock.
For several minutes the man tries with all of his might to move the rock. He turns his back to it and pushes harder, using his legs. He even attempts to move it with the use of a tree branch that he finds nearby.
At last, he collapses to the ground, exhausted from his labor and sobs, "I can't do it, Lord!"
Jesus looks at the rock and says, "Be gone!" The rock vanishes as Jesus helps the man to his feet.
Still panting for breath the man asks, "Lord, why did you let me work so hard at moving the rock when you could move it with just a word?"
Jesus responded, " I never told you to move it, only to push it. You needed to know that you could not move it. Besides, you are now stronger than you were before you tried."
Push until He tells you to stop, and then simply let Him move the stone! (He's really good at that!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Mark
LIC,
OK. The weekends is over...
How was the weekend? What's new? How are you doing?
Mark
Mark,
Thank you for checking up on me... I have been trying not to post on other threads due to the circumstances and path my situation has taken... I know that others check this thread too and I pray that I am not a discouragement or an example for anyone else as to how they should proceed. My focus continues to be Christ and I am filled with this joy inside that can almost not be contained! It is difficult though because I still have compassion for my H and choose to not display this in front of him for fear of adding more pain to his plate. After many discussions this weekend it looks as if roommates will not be working out well and that I will be having to hunt for a place of my own... but I am okay! Actually I am great! For when God is for you.. who can be against you! I know that He will supply all my needs and that I do not have to worry about anything.....
so to answer your question.... God works in mysterious ways but I am doing very well.
LIC
LIC,
Let me know when you want to talk. I'll be around.
Mark
Mark,
I hope you realize that I did not mean at all to say that I do not want to talk... I so appreciate your input and wisdom. I just know that this is a "Marriage Builder" site and that my path has changed from that. Please do not take offense to what I said.
LIC
LIC,
I'm not offended in any way, but as you said, this site is Marriage Builders... and my opinion of marriage can be found in Genesis 2:22-24.
I have no desire to lecture you.
I don't wish to discourage you.
I am way beyond attempting to talk you out of it.
I am only guessing that nothing I say will change your mind, since you seem to be totally at peace with your decision.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
I'll still be here if you ever have questions or need encouragement.
Mark
LIC,
I am saddened for you and proud of you at the same time. Only God knows your heart....thank you for revealing your thoughts and feelings with Mark and all of us.
I'm sad for the pain you and your H are enduring. But I'm proud of you for finding what you feel is a God-given peace in your situation.
We're all here to support you and each other so please keep posting on this thread.
Ace
{{{ACE}}}
I think you are my God sent angel in the flesh!!!! I just continue to feel God's love through you and others and feel so blessed!
Praying for you and many more.... and still snooping around <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
LIC
LIC,
Well, I'm going to ask...
Not because I don't respect you make your decisions...
For clarity...for all of us. Clear choices are the best ones...not living from feelings, directly from our beliefs.
Why are you choosing this?
LA
LA,
I was wondering when this question was going to come up..... Simply put.... my reasoning for making this dicision is because for years I have been struggling with the same issues using different approaches to help fix or make the probelm more doable.... Though glimpses of change occured, with every attemp for improvment as things slipped back into the routine of "normal life" for my H... the efforts on one end did not cause enough momentum to make a lifestyle change. after numerous prayers, years of searching Gods will... He has given me peace about leaving... which is something that under all the other situations did not happen. Thus, this chapter is closing and the new chapter is about God and me....
lic
LIC,
Like I asked before, you may have been working on the M for a long time, but how long have you been doing the right things?
There are two ways to gain momentum. One way is to be hit by something going at a high rate of speed. Your momentum does change when that happens.
Another way is to simply begin moving in the right direction and gradually accelerate as time goes on. Continuing in the right direction never implies a time when we can coast, so continued effort must be maintained.
Since marriage isn't a destination but a journey, I think that the real issue becomes maintaining continuous movement in the right direction rather than momentum that carries us along. But it must be remembered that movement alone is not a sign of progress and that is what attempting to build momentum ends up leading us to. We feel like we have given enough energy that we can begin to coast and by so doing, we lose the momentum we have built up.
Also remember that lack of resistance along the way is not an indication of going in the proper direction. We can be totally lost and be making great time along the way.
Living near Chicago gives one a perspective on this concept. We only have two seasons here; winter and road construction. Every spring the orange traffic cones bloom along the roadways and soon the state shrub is in bloom also (the orange and white barricade) Our state tree is the stop-light standard and our state mineral seems to be asphalt. I think our state motto is "Be prepared...
to stop."
Between my home and places I must visit frequently there are many possible routes to be taken. Some of them save a mile or two. Some save a minute or even five, but no single route exists that takes away even 5% of the trip either in distance or in travel time.
Often, the most direct path is the one that takes the longest and is usually the best route. I have spent many hours in traffic either going to or coming from a customer or vendor location. Last summer, I made a trip to a customer in the south part of the city that at three AM would likely take less than 40 minutes. Due to construction, traffic accidents and a lack of common sense on the part of many drivers, the trip took 4 hours!
At one point, 4 of us got out in the middle of the highway and played several hands of euchre on the hood of my pickup. We got back into our vehicles and only moved about a hundred yards before stopping again.
But I had to get there, so I just stayed with it and made it there and back, though it did take all day. (The return only took two and a half hours)
So, I was going the right way and to the right place, but didn't seem to be making very good time. I even considered getting off the highway and turning around, but on the occasions that I have done this, I have found that traffic on the secondary roads is no better on those days than the main highways.
God does not promise a life without difficulty. He does not tell us that our way will be either simple or easy. Sometimes, He lets us make a decision, based on our own feelings that is counter to what He desires for us. Though our way may become easier by these decisions, it isn't an indication that His will is what we are following.
Can He use a wrong decision by us to further His purposes? You bet He can! He can also honor us for our perseverance and "stick-to-it" attitude when we continue doing the right thing in the face of difficulty. For by doing this, we bring honor to Him.
I have no doubt that God desires for you to focus on Him. My only question would be whether He wishes for you to do so within marriage or outside of it.
Just my nickel's worth. (2 cents doesn't buy what it once did)
Mark
LIC,
Thank you for responding.
I didn't hear anything different than in your previous post, though. Which concerns me. What I hear is that you spent a lot of time and effort on trying to fix what wasn't broken...and what wasn't in your control.
When you first came here, you committed to working on yourself because that greatly benefits the marriage...by half.
What I remember is that you were going to learn solid boundaries and boundary enforcements...that you were going to not choose to do or say anything which would create resentment...and you were going to listen and repeat...see your H as separate and equal to you.
What I heard in your previous posts was that something happened on vacation, you came home, H was upset with you, then you chose to take off your rings and that you both are tired and you don't want to pretend anymore.
Then in this post (that I'm quoting), I hear you are choosing to end your marriage based on feelings, is that correct?
Mark,
I never thought in a million years that this is what my life would be..... I try to sit and wonder what went wrong and how to try to fix it and have been trying chance after chance yearning for my heart to feel something..... but still i feel nothing... [color:"red"] Your beliefs didn't change, did they? Your perspective? Your perceptions? Why would your feelings? [/color]
below is an email i sent to a friend yesterday morning still arguing and trying to convince myself otherwise..... I have also realized that I do not have any respect or love for myself due to the choice I made [color:"red"] I don't believe your lack of respect or self-love is a result of your choice...I believe your lack came first, then your previous choice [/color] and that I have resorted to inappropriate vices to help numb the pain when i feel it gets to hard.... this is not right and I know that I must change myself because no one else can change me but me. [color:"red"]I have heard you say this more than a few times. I haven't seen you live it. When you look at your BH and say "I get so frustrated because he has no backbone!" then I say, flip it over, LIC...where's yours? You won't change your own thoughts, where they dwell; your actions...to act and resent...to feel injury and not speak, not state, not share...no more lip service to this I must change myself...when you don't even KNOW who you are right now, IMO. You are dwelling in your BH's stuff, not your own. [/color]
Dear "friend"
oh boy.... vacation.... the weather and water were beautiful and a perfect place for me to argue with God in some sense..... my heart has been heavy as you know and really it didnt come back any lighter [color:"red"] I read on 4/27 you were doing well...spending time...talking about the motorcycle, getting to do hobbies together...making that effort...and then vacation...and now it's 5/15...and I'm hearing this is your heavy heart...and I'm confused. Why would your heart come back lighter if you didn't know why it was heavy in the first place? [/color] ..... on the flight home we watched a movie called " the painted veil" twice.... and it really made me think..... the plot summary was:
The Painted Veil is a love story set in the 1920s that tells the story of a young English couple, Walter (Edward Norton), a middle class doctor and Kitty (Naomi Watts), an upper-class woman, who get married for the wrong reasons and relocate to Shanghai, where she falls in love with someone else. When he uncovers her infidelity, in an act of vengeance, he accepts a job in a remote village in China ravaged by a deadly epidemic, and takes her along. Their journey brings meaning to their relationship and gives them purpose in one of the most remote and beautiful places on earth.
Or there is this one too.....
Kitty Fane (Watts) is a frivolous young English woman who longs for romance and excitement, trapped in a loveless marriage to a staid Shanghai researcher. When her husband (Norton) learns she has had an affair, he volunteers to fight a cholera epidemic in China's war-torn interior. Dr. Fane forces his wife to accompany him on the difficult and hazardous journey, endangering her life in the process...
basically it really hit me!
but the interesting thing in the movie was that the husband at least did show interest or initiation... [color:"red"] I hear a huge DJ in here...am I reaching or is it there? [/color] and in the middle of the epedemic they both started helping orphans and such which made them see things differently... kinda not so much about them but the big picture....
As i sat and thought this weekend I realized that part of the problem is i want a confident man yet with some sensitivity. [color:"red"]LIC, what did your BH think of the movie? What are his thoughts, his feelings, his beliefs? Did he agree with the doctor...that adultery deserves death? Or that healing comes from working, living, partnering side by side, without judging, defining, compartmentalizing and discounting your partner? Are you really saying here is that your BH isn't right for you? Or are you doing the projection which can help you greatly? You want to be a confident woman in your own righteousness, radically honest, deeply intimate and totally respectful with your BH?[/color]
Then yesterday Greg and I were just trying to relax and he decideds to apologize to me for expressing that he dislikes when i hang out with my single friends.... i got so upset.... he will do anything to make me happy...but by doing so... he has no backbone! [color:"red"]A BS has no backbone? No one else has MORE backbone, IMO[/color]
I felt like almost walking out!!! I told him once again not to change his feeling to try to make me happy to stick to his guns but as long as i am happy he doesnt care!!!! [color:"red"]So you were telling him instead of listening? Do you know what he meant, why he wanted to say it, or did you assume? Do you want to get to the issues or do you want things to stay in assumption land? He may not know what's underneath his urge to believe he can make you happy...his issue may have gone to control...because my DH manipulated constantly in an off-the-radar control (his own words) and he never looked confident a day in his life...are you interested at all in who your BH really is?[/color]it is so hard..... because there is my human side and then the side that wants to stay on God's good side....i know that God's love is bigger than anything...... but then i think am i giving up too soon... do i just need a little more faith? but then i think about the whole backbone thing and i get so frustrated! [color:"red"] When you focus on changing, defining and compartmentlizing your partner, you won't have any room left for love. Your choice.[/color] i am too strong, independant and confident i think to be in a relationship! [color:"red"] How are you confident? You say you are lost, fighting your own demons, that voice in your head, the miasma of being human...what if living without a marriage partner is EASIER for you than living up to your vows? What if you are falsely strong...in that you take over others' through boxing them, reducing them, rather than accepting and understanding them? Might give you a feeling of strength...it is a great weakness. That was my experience in myself. [/color] i was sitting and thinking yesterday.... if my decision is fleshy self versus staying on God's side...but if I stay with Greg will I stay on God's side by staying faithful to him [color:"red"] I believe God would ask you...is not my side, your side? Do you not rejoice in choosing fidelity, for if you betray yourself when you betray others (and vice versa)?[/color] and being happy with him? If I stay with him is it for myself or everyone else? [color:"red"] There is a higher payoff, I believe, in staying and earning your way out of the marriage, than leaving it based on what hasn't come to pass.[/color] i just wish that i was confident enough to make a decision.... with out dealing with the fear of the unknown..... that is what scares me!!! Then there is the thinking of if I make a decision that doesn't make me happy am I really "living"? [color:"red"] Figuring out how you make yourself happy is what I thought you were focused on here. Was that part of what you wanted to learn? [/color] No matter what either way is hard...If I stay with him, I need to find a way to be happy and for both of us to have our needs met. If I leave then I am going to have to deal with the struggle of being alone and starting a new life. [color:"red"] If you leave without getting all your lessons, you will repeat this over and over again...and that may be what you want...because you won't have to go to that unknown...that level of intimacy which scares you so much, IMO. [/color] the funny or sad thing is the first one scares me more than the second!! Honestly, I sometimes feel I have already left him. My heart hasn't been there in a long time, I havent been happy for a long time and that cheats both of us as well as God. [color:"red"]You haven't chosen to act from your love, rather to guide yourself from your feelings. Where did that get you a year ago? What did you learn about how much power you have over your life experience? [/color] Then i ponder how long am I willing to wait on a miracle? i think 7 years is about as much as i got in me for a miracle [color:"red"] Have you read Acey's threads? She was like you for 32 years of her marriage...and she now sees a lot of what she was doing, how their dance took place...and within months, her life is drastically different [/color]
you know the funny thing is... my sister just moved to auburn too..... maybe God new before i did..... go figure!!!! or is it the devil at work giving my more opportunities to screw things up! [color:"red"] What are you saying here without really saying it? What do you believe are the signs that God is leading you away from your marriage? [/color]
so... I think that is pretty much everything I have been thinking....... Thank you for emailing me and keeping me on track! I full heartedly appreciate every inch of the love support and encouragement you have given! [color:"red"] How often have you said this to your BH lately...that you full heartedly appreciate every inch of the love and support and encouragement he's given you? [/color]
Our perspectives are powerful...they determine how we experience life and what we make our decisions from. If yours is one of resentment, entitlement and lack of respect...then that is what will be your life experience...and LIC, please believe, I lived that way for longer than you've been alive. I don't want that for you and I guarantee that is not the way to owning your happiness.
I share all this because I heard that voice in my head...I had the happy feet urge, the constant craving for a clean slate...because I wouldn't give one to my FOO, my DH or my children...and of course not to myself. Living externally will always net you resentment...for yourself, within yourself. Because choosing to live that way, find the cure in others, says you are NOTHING...you don't exist...and that sears us to our souls.
Before you choose to break apart what God put together...why not put on your rings (living in truth...you are married...even when you leave, you will be married until the judge lets that gavel down)...and see where you flipped a 180 in three weeks...from acting from love to reacting to your current feelings...which are passing. Let's root out where your stuff is coming from, what it harkens back to...so you won't have to break marriage after marriage, relationship after relationship and wonder why this keeps repeating?
If only they had a backbone...if they were stubborn (and your BH IS stubborn in my book...he chose to stand by you though his heart was breaking)...if only they were more confident, outspoken, less vocal, not a bully, less controlling, more controlling...
all of which is out of your control...and there you remain, miles from your own happiness, because you don't exist. Only THEY do...what they do or not do, what they feel or not feel, how they act or don't act...
wipes you off the map, doesn't it? No power, no ownership, no freedom, no control.
False living hurts, LIC. I remember. And there are no do-overs...you don't get to go back and undo the lives wrecked...you get to own your choices for your lifetime.
Choose carefully...with clarity and forethought. Get to your own highest honesty...all of yourself...all parts...so you can know your huge power and equally huge limits.
I'm asking you to stay and think on this. I'm not saying you're bad, wrong, evil or crazy. I feel like I'm reaching back for myself and I know what an important contribution you are to this planet and to MB by being here. I believe you could help me in many ways...to heal, communicate, share and know far more than I can do alone.
God has brought you mastery, I believe...in Mark, in MAZ, FH and others...he's been active in your life directly and through others. I'm here, right now, because you haven't been living from your beliefs...as you said on the first page of this thread...you believe strong in openness and honesty...and in your last post, you hide and lie by omission.
Of course roommate-style marriages don't work out...marriage is for partners...which means you have to choose to be the right partner...like in Mark's sigline...instead of dwelling where you have no control...making your BH be the right partner.
I'm asking you to not react in these old ways...choose to act from truth and to live in it. You are married. You may feel great joy right now because the threat of intimacy is about to be removed! Yippee! Easy peasy up ahead!
Or not.
God made us for one another. If you are saying by relying on him for all your ENs...then are you making yourself a bride of Christ? Are you going to be a nun? We all put our personal relationship with God first...inside...where we pray, listen, realign and re-seat ourselves. That's for us, about us...and a crucial part of our half of the marriage...part of who we are--marriage is number one because it has you and it has your BH...equally. You respect God...why not his creation, your BH?
You accept God loves you...and you see his acts of love...
Why not see that your BH loves and acts from his love for you?
What would it take for you to be able to leave this marriage with no regrets, no remorse and joyously for BOTH you and your BH? Would it be two years of MC, along with IC for each of you? Would it be two marriage weekend seminars? Daily communication exercises? Taking no action which you will resent? Staying present and not allowing yourself to react to the past or the possible future?
Would it take learning to treasure yourself, know your stuff separate from BH's stuff...and accept entirely who he really is, as well as yourself? Would it take predetermining boundary enforcements...understanding your code, inside and out, and get to where you automatically reach for amends or enforcements, as needed?
Would it take giving up the belief that there is anyone better suited for you? Or that people are replaceable?
Would it take permitting yourself to love all out...not dependent on BH's thoughts, feelings, beliefs?
And if you learned to live this way...would that be you earning your way out of the marriage, honoring your marital boundaries with gratitude and joy; and respecting your BH's choices as his own, his actions as his, and his stuff as his own?
If you would do this...I would not worry for your future at all. Not for all the re-creating, the loops and downward spirals...and I believe a lot of what you're experiencing you've did before...long before BH...and until you see where your signals (feelings) REALLY are coming from, you will remain LITW, in yourself. Wondering why you cannot connect as others do...feeling defective, tempted, urged and wanting desperately to distract...from fear.
You take your fears with you when you leave.
I fear you leaving your marriage without earning your way out. All the earning to change your BH...to make him into the right partner for you doesn't count towards earning anything. It may have been seven years of effort...to move that rock, instead of doing what God said and pushing it...to learn your limits, your power, and how God can restore, heal and thrive with you in your marriage, so you can get to spiritual intimacy and have no fear of it.
I think I've gone on and on...may my length tell you how important you are to me...and how important your choices are to you, your BH and your marriage.
LA
i understand everything you are saying and respect the perspectives and wisdom. I am not willing to pretend that I am okay with my situation anymore. I know that I have come a long way from where I was and that yes many times i tried to move the rock rather than allowing God to push it out of the way for me.
I understand that this is a MB website and that should be the main focus but I can step away from this knowing that I have done everything possible.... have used more than one avenue and approach and that still my H doesnt even want to sleep with me... hmmmm over 2 years and nothing... and when I am told by someone who "loves" me that I am full of the devil and have been for over 3 years.... wow... that really makes me want to reconsider this peace i have....
I do not feel i have lied or ommitted anything... and I am sorry that you feel that way. I really dont know what else to say.
LIC,
After further consideration, I am now inclined to agree with your decision to separate. Feel free to email me if you wish (addy is in my profile) but be sure to use Ace and her H as a cc: so that we can both be held accountable by someone who knows what is going on. (All about avoiding the appearance of impropriety)
LA,
We all know that when only one member of a marriage comes here seeking help, there is some information that we will not have privilege of. There is always a piece missing.
When LIC first arrived, I thought her to be a fogged out WS, but I was amazed at how quickly she picked up the basics and the ease with which she seemed to be able to apply them, both to her own situation and those of others.
I asked her how long she has been doing the right things to save her marriage and I now think that the answer may be long enough. She tried to move the stone herself for years and has only recently decided to let Jesus roll it away for her. I feel that this is exactly what He is doing.
LIC's LB$ has been depleted for a long time and I had mistakenly thought it was because she was not accepting the deposits her H was making. I have come to see the error of that thinking and now feel that the reason for her bankrupt state is because he is not making the needed deposits. It isn't always the WS who is sitting on the fence and cake eating.
That is not to affix blame entirely on him, only to say that regardless of what she does, total lack of any action on his part can only be tolerated for so long without taking its toll. It does, after all, take both people in a marriage to make the MB concepts work as they should. One person can apply them and the relationship improves by some percent, but until both people commit to the marriage and making it what it should be, there is only so far things can go.
LIC, I am assuming that your pastor knows of the situation and your decision and that he is in agreement with it.
Don't stop posting or reading here, LIC. You do have much of value to contribute and I would feel it as a personal loss if you were to vanish from this site.
As sad as it may be, not all marriages should be saved, and as much as it pains me to say so, this may in fact be one of those. FWIW, I think even Dr H would agree on this one.
And one more thing...
{{{LIC}}}
Still praying for you but with a new way of thinking....
Mark
PS LIC, how about a new thread without so much baggage to keep us informed of how you are doing. I leave it up to you. Just remember, we do care...
LIC,
I'm with Mark. I want you here...to keep posting and sharing. I'm not judging you...I'm terribly worried you will experience this in each relationship you have. I fear for you.
Does not make me right, clairvoyant or wise. Comes from my act of love...to post honestly to you, from my own experience, filters and perceptions. And from my heart.
LA
I'm terribly worried you will experience this in each relationship you have.
I have said this exact same thing to LIC in the past.
I have something else I'd like to add...I hope it doesn't ruffle any feathers...
My humble opinion is that this sense of peace is more likely a sense of relief, anticipation, excitement...that she will be able to pursue her life and other relationships in her freedom.
I say this, because I too, felt this same peace when I told my DH that I was leaving...I thought that finally now I would be free.
Those feelings were short lived.
I realized that leaving the marriage was not going to make me any happier, the problems in myself could not be run away from.
Not that my M didn't need working on too, it did. But that wasn't the sum total of everything that was wrong.
LIC, you certainly have the right to do whatever you feel is best, not that you're wrong for leaving...this is just something I wanted to share with you.
And please stick around regardless...
Your friend, MAZ
Hi guys!
Thank you for your posts... I am reading and considering everything that is said.....
Know that any decision i do make is not made lightly... I know that this will have ripple effects in more ways than i know.... as far as excitement and anticipation are concerned... I can honestly say they are not there.... i feel sick realizing everything that is to come.... but peace and relief I do have. The problems I have will be mine and I do understand no amount of running or hidding will change that.....
My H still doesnt think that I am going to follow thru and believes that everything will work out just fine.... we tried talking once again about our situation and problems as a couple and he just gets angry and frustrated denying that there is anything out of the normal with us....
Please just pray that i will continue to focus on my Father for strength and that the world does not get it's grip on me as i am down. I am so drained... i feel like a feather floating in the air not knowing where to land.
LIC
i must believe that God has something amazing in store!!!!