There was just an article on cnn.com about overspenders.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/15/debt.overspender/index.html

wow...Hold.... OK...it was a bit dramatic and harsh... but, i think you said all the right and radically honest things about the overspending!!!
...you were great...right up 'till you said...."in what world is it not criticism to say that our house is a piece of crap and you can't see how we will ever be able to afford to fix it up?"

That is when it became evident that you took all her comments personally again....it was an attack on you....you should have continued down the path of YOUR truth.

maybe a little more gently....maybe a light would have went on for her IF you didn't take it so personally.....maybe she would have finally realized WHY you guys don't have so much available cash.

Hold,

by no means was I suggesting a romantic get away at this time, it was just something I was thinking as I read your post.

Personally, I think you could nix the summer camp for your kids, and use that money to pay off your debt, or find a less expensive camp to send them to, if you think they must go.

I think that would be a bigger eye opener for Mrs Hold, to really SEE how her overspending effects EVERYONE in the family and not just you or her, but the kids as well.

And I think your radical honesty with Mrs Hold concerning her overspending was refreshing!!!

That and all the other changes your making at work, are PROGRESS!!! YEAH!! You are no longer the girly man, your taking the bull by the horn and both standing firm while standing up for yourself...

Mrs Hold will have to get used to this NEW Improved YOU!!

yeah..i agree.
what does Mrs. H do when the kids are off to summer camp?
how long to they stay away?

Hold I see nothing wrong with you being honest with your wife about her whining about the house. You told her how it is plain and simple. She knows what she did and it doesn't hurt her to be reminded of that. I can't imagine that your house needs that much updating. Paint is cheap tell her to get her paint clothes out and go to town.

As for the romantic get away. Tell her she can pay for it if thats what she wants to do. She makes money.

All I can say is I am glad I live where I do. Not saying that people don't have nice homes and things but it isn't such a priority where I live. There are some things to say nice about small town living.

Jill

Perhaps I'm way off base here, but I've heard the same thing from my W more than once. I know that you two are "better off" in so far as gross income is concerned, so maybe Mrs HOLD's comments are more accurate given the area where you live, but my response when my W brought up this topic was that, according to the economic statistics I keep up on, a good portion of the consumer spending since our recession earlier this decade came from MEW's (Mortgage Equity Withdrawals). In other words, people aren't spending money they have to make home improvements, especially considering real wages have not increased at all over the past couple of decades. The spending has to come from somewhere. Chances are even the folks where you live are spending their home equity to make such home improvements. So, with these facts in mind, the question becomes, do you want to take on even more debt? I think I know the answer to that question for you two. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That said, I realize that some of her friends may indeed not be in this situation, maybe they really do have the money. I guess it's hard for me to get my mind around how someone can willfully externalize their value such that stuff other people have becomes the measuring stick for my own life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"well, you don't really love me, you have a wierd love/hate thing going. But no one would feel about my children the way you feel."

Wow

Yeah, I thought so too. And then she decided to offer sex for the first time in weeks. Both of us are so messed up about sex it isn't funny. I knew as soon as I heard the words that the woman on the radio saying "my Dad told me that once the sex stops the marriage is over - so I divorced my husband" hit Mrs. Hold hard. I wasn't surprised to find her in bed when I got back from dropping the kids off.

Still, it was wierd to have her say out loud that she knows I don't love her. We tend to keep that elephant locked up in the closet. I had no idea what to say to her comment.

Well, it sounds like you are both becoming less afraid of being honest...that's a good thing, even if a bit scary at times.

Kathi

I was planning on sending him to the same day camp he went to the past few years. We could afford that. Then his best friend started talking about going to sleep away camp. He asked if he could go. I told him I could not afford that. My father overheard us talking and said that he would pay for it. So he is going on my parents' nickel.

I have turned down my Dad when he offered to pay off the last $10,000 of our credit card debt. But I am willing to let him pay for camp for our kids. I know how much it pleases grandpa to be able to do things for his grandkids.

Trust me, Mrs. Hold "feels the pain" of my budgeting. We painted our bedroom a couple of years ago. Mrs. Hold was manic about policing me and the kids if we leaned against the walls. "Don't get fingerprints / handprints on the walls!" Then our furnace exploded and spewed black soot on the walls. We had the cleaning girl wash them but the corners and the edges near the ceiling still have dark smudges. Today I slipped while putting on my socks but twisted so I leaned up against the wall with my short-covered shoulder rather than my hand. I told her "look Ma, no hands on the wall!" She said "it doesn't matter any more, the walls are disgusting". Ouch.

A caterer faxed over a proposed menu for S12's Bar Mitzvah today. Mrs. Hold loved the menu, but the price was sky high. I told her I understood it was no fun to face that issue. She said "it is what it is". I said "but you expected to be in a different position by now, didn't you?" She said "perhaps". Maybe Kathi is correct that this honesty is good for us in the long run.

The walls are better and more bearable than your marriage is. Keep being honest with her and maybe some of the truth will sink in.

Yes, we have discussed this. Her diva friend borrowed $150,000 to renovate her kitchen. No way I am going there.

And as I have posted here before, the neighbors who are painting their walls to match their new rug never go out. Not to restaurants. Not to shows. They stay home and renovate as their "play" time. I have frequently asked Mrs. Hold if she is willing to stop going out to dinner so she could afford new sliding doors. Nope. Is she willing to do the work of renovating herself? Nope. I have told her that it isn't proper to compare our situation to the neighbors' if Mrs. Hold isn't willing to put in the sweat equity (cooking, helping husband with painting) that neighbor wife does.

I would like to know why your wife has to compare herself to a Diva friend? What is this mechanism?

If she should unfavorabley compare her home, her husband, and maybe her children to "Diva type" people, then she is never going to come out on top. There is always someone we percieve as better than us or has better stuff than we do.

Tell your wife to make friends in a different social class, A class more like her own. So she can accept her own lot in life.

Sounds like your wife needs a change in priorities, ask her if she would be willing to put that money she is saving for a fancy vacation or expensive jewelry into paying for some of those household renovations she wants so badly.

Maybe give her something to think about concerning which one is more important to her...going on a fancy vacation, buying expensive jewelry OR renovating the house..she hates so much.

Two quick thoughts on this.

Part the first:
I read somewhere that young adults who get caught up in things beyond their years such as sexual abuse sometimes do not progress mentally beyond the age they were at the time of the abuse.

So if a person is 16 when they are abused they have a hard time moving beyond the feelings of a person of that age. Many times when you’ve described comments that your wife has made it sounds like something a child would say. “Susy gets to renovate her kitchen, why can’t I do that”. You answer, “We can’t afford to right now”. She replies “But that’s not fair!”. You reply that’s life, and she insists “But it’s not fair, I want to do it”.

Part the second:
Although dj’s and other lovebusters are supposed to be right out, sometimes stating things plainly is the only way to get a point across. I can be quiet and polite and say the right things, and my dh will not understand that an issue is a big deal. How many times do people come on this board and say “I never realized he/she felt so strongly about this. Now he/she has left and I would do anything to change my actions”.

Sometimes a strong statement is exactly what is needed. “Hey, listen up. That is out of line and I won’t put up with it.”

However these things are my opinion only and your mileage may vary.

I have to work late. Mrs. Hold will have to pick up S12 from his evening activity. She agreed without complaint. I thanked her for being so supportive and cooperative about my job interfering with her schedule. I am trying to show more appreciation for the things she DOES do that make my life better / easier.

Is that something she would normally complain about?

I don't understand how she can complain about YOUR job interfering w/ HER schedule AND the fact that YOU don't make enough$$.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No, not at all. She has always been very understanding about my working late. She wants me to earn more money, and she realizes that in my field that means working outrageous hours. At least until you build a huge book of business.

I didn't mean to imply she would complain. To the contrary, I was complimenting her on the fact that she almost NEVER complains about me working late. No matter how inconvenient to her. No matter what she was otherwise planning on doing. If I have to work late then she drops everything to deal with the kids while I work. I sincerely appreciate that some other woman might NOT be so understanding.

I spend far too much time focusing on her faults. I think it would be more productive if I spent some time admiring her for her helpful qualities.

I agree!!

Again another postive coming within the changes your making..

Mrs. Hold did not get the job working in the probation department. She got a "no thank you" letter yesterday. I suggested she call or write the woman and ask how Mrs. Hold could become better prepared or qualified should another position open up (there are 11 statewide). Then maybe Mrs. Hold could invite the woman to lunch and chat. I have found the hard way that not creating and fostering relationships makes it much more difficult to succeed in the working world. We shall see what Mrs. Hold chooses to do. For now, she is major bummed.