I know the dilemna Hold is talking about, but this is REALITY. Divorce costs! The price of not being willing to do any personal work on herself for 8 years is that Mrs. Hold will not be in even a 2000 sq.ft. home in her quaint little NE town. The price of being unwilling ot meet even one of Hold's needs is that she will NOT be living in the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed!

Hold, let me give you a reality check here. When my exH and I divorced, we were living in a 4000sq.ft. home with a pool in the Rocky Mtn. west that appraised at $300K and had a mortgage of $180k! We were sitting PRETTY as far as real estate goes! And yet the only way we could afford the mortgage was with the two of us working. When my exH left, I could no longer afford the mortgage on my own and he didn't give a rip. Soooooo...we had to sell our home, split the equity, and FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIND OUR OWN DWELLING with our half.

After divorce, it is NOT your job to make sure your kids stay in that house -OR- to make sure Mrs. Hold has a home of similar size or style. It IS your job to hand over HER half of the equity and THEN LET HER FIGURE IT OUT. If YOU want to make sure your kids stay in a home in that school district, then you take YOUR HALF of the equity money and figure out how to finance it.

Does that make sense?? Knock-Knock!! Reality check!!



--CJ

CJ makes a good point Hold.
it's not the time to be thinking investment property.
I am sure you could get approved for a larger mortgage...you take your $$ from the sale of your house and finance whatever you can find...Mrs. H does the same....you still pay the same amount of support. either way.
1 of you can live in the town w/ the school...the other may have to move to a neigboring town.

Who is thinking about investment property? I am just talking about a roof over our heads.

I think CJ has a valid suggestion. It might work for other people. I do think it is slightly easier when it is the mom who is worrying how to keep the kids in the same district. The custody issue does not play the same from the other side of the fence.

The best way I can think of to start World War III over custody is to tell Mrs. Hold "I am going to divorce you. We will have to sell our house. I am going to take out a huge mortgage and buy a less expensive fixer upper house in town, and spend all my free time fixing the defects. You undoubtedly won't be able to afford to buy a house in town, so I think I should get primary physical custody of the kids so they can live in my house and keep going to the same school." That would pretty much guarantee endless litgation over custody, property, etc. Any hope of a polite divorce would be out the door. The kids would inevitably be pawns in all the legal maneuvering. I'd rather be miserable for the rest of my life than do that to them.

And you believe there is hope of that now??????

Who is thinking about investment property?
____________________


i think Stella was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


hey, i you are back to being comfortable w/ being miserable for the rest of your life...that's certainly your choice.

Well, I have hope that if I agree to accept "standard" visitation of every other weekend and one weeknight every other week, that we won't fight about custody. And if we don't fight about custody, then she gets the statutory child support based on my income and we don't have to fight about that either.

If I ask for custody, huge fight over custody. And if I have primary physical custody, then most of the child support to Mrs. Hold goes away. Which means she has to fight that much harder for more alimony.

No, I don't think that any divorce with Mrs. Hold would be cordial. But I think a divorce under which I "concede" custody and child support will be much less of a tug of war over the kids.

Hold,

What do you want out of a divorce? Do you want primary physical custody?

Things to ponder in a separation agreement and parenting plan:

1. Who has control and what rules apply concerning school districts.
2. What rules apply for relocation.
3. What rules apply if either of you would get married post-divorce. Think beneficiaries, child support, alimony. Build escape clauses for each.
4. Taxes, i.e. how would you address your first filing post-divorce? Who claims the kids? Who claims everything else that's deductible? Could you negotiate alternating the dependent deduction every other year, i.e. you take it one year, she takes it the next, etc.
5. Property division, including the disposition of the house and whatever equity it may represent.
6. Retirement/401K/investments, who gets what?

These are some of the bigger points. I had a real adventure with taxes this year and can guess that most men will take a bit hit in taxes the first filing after divorce.

I'll give you an illustration of how my divorce went.

She filed and retained an expensive attorney. She paid all legal expenses. I did not retain an attorney (I wanted mediation). She kept the house of most of its possessions. I got out with zero debt and kept both my retirement (the hill to die on for me) and 401K. We split any cash that we had, although I could argue the fairness of that. I kept all of my personal possessions, some of which I sold for furniture money. I feel at this point that I should have asked for more, but at the time I couldn't wait for the divorce to be over. I tell myself that it's going to cost me financially to replace some of the things that I should have taken, but it will be far cheaper in feelings to just go ahead and replace them rather than trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. Plus, I find most any contact with the ex to be a toxic experience. I changed a lot, she's pretty much the same. C'est le vie.

All this talk of divorce???

There is a place you can touch a woman that will drive her crazy.

Her heart.

I believe that you believe that your wife has put a price tag on her heart.

Financial support is a #1 need for many women--especially if they have young children--but a woman never puts a price tag on love...she puts it on the accessories.

How do you touch a woman's heart?

Correct.


I don't have a clue.

My husband has done many things to touch my heart. Once when we had an argument and I started crying, he sat down next to me, took out his handkerchief, and while he was gently wiping the tears off my cheek he made serious eye contact and said simply, "It's okay. Everything will work out."

Oh, well, in that case I used to touch Mrs. Hold's heart often earlier in our marriage. Examples:

1. Tenth Anniversary in July 2002. Here is what I posted about it.

Much thanks to Jan for her fabulous ideas. I got 7 cards, 3 cook books, another little gift, balloons, a bouquet of mixed flowers and 2 dozen red roses. Decorated the house while wife was asleep. Put little handmade "Happy Anniversary" notes in the cabinets on her cereal, coffee, plates, etc. Wrote "I love you" in red lipstick on plastic wrap and taped it to the mirrors in all the bathrooms (much easier to clean up than if you write on the mirrors themselves). Put the mixed flowers in a vase on the kitchen counter with a card next to it. Put one book and card on the clothes washer. One on the driver seat of her car. Hid the roses and the other cards. Gave them to her later in the day after she found the pre-placed stuff.

2. Cruise in August 2002

karaoke night on the ship. I can't sing a note. But I signed up for a song. When I got to the microphone I said "this is our wedding song, I don't know if I can sing it, but I know I still love her so here goes". Our song is "I Only Have Eyes For You". Not a dry eye in the bar.

Before we left I bought several greeting cards with romantic sayings on them. I gave them to her once or twice a day every day for the last 3 or 4 days of the trip. I also got us a pair of candy necklaces to wear as a symbol of our togetherness. So I tried to show her in her love languages (gifts and acts of service) that I care and I appreciate her trying.

3. Valentine's Day 2003

Last night I made Rose Petal Ice Cream. From scratch. I don't know what it will taste like. But it is a deep rich pink color that is perfect for Valentine's Day. I hope it turns out to be edible.

I have a card for her. I have the garnet earrings. We will share the leftover lamb roast from my daughter's birthday party (Mrs. Hold made 2 roasts and we only served one, so we have a whole beautiful roast left for us ). I got long red candles for the table.

And one or surprises for later. Nothing sexual or suggestive. Just one or two items to show I am thinking of her. I will submit she take a warm bath while I put the kids to bed. And then I will give her the greatest gift I can. I will leave her alone for the rest of the evening. With a scented candle lit. And some relaxation music in the background. Hopefully she can relax and feel at ease.

4. Valentine's Day 2005

Mrs. Hold got a book with romantic sayings. And places to tape pictures of us. And pages with "fill in the blanks" such as "I first loved you when ...." and "I loved it when you remembered ...." She was very curious late last night what I was spending so much time doing with the computer (choosing, scanning, cropping, printing, cutting out and taping pictures for the book). She was very teary eyed this morning when she read the book. Might not have cost much, but will score big points with the ladies at work when she shows it off!

Pieta, I was caring. Considerate. Supportive. All it got me was scorn and disrespect. She may say smart is sexy and she loved that I treated her so well. But she wouldn't lift a finger for me.

Once when Mrs. Hold was crying, I licked the tears off her cheek. She looked at me funny. I said "anything that comes from you is precious to me". She said "you are silly. Licking my face is gross." But she smiled as she said it. Now she wishes that I would lick the tears she cries.

Today, I get much more secondary gain from refusing to touch her heart than I ever got from touching her heart and being treated like crap in return. I must admit I liked my behavior better back then. I felt I was being romantic. But eventually I felt like a doormat. Now the doormat feelings dominate. If I went back to "touching her heart", I would feel like a fool.

Ah...but there can only be a doormat feeling if there is a power struggle. And there will be a power struggle only where there is mistrust.

Exchanging a doormat status for self-respect requires letting go.

Well of course there is a power struggle in our marriage. I want sex. She doesn't. Not as long as we are married. Only 2 ways to end the power struggle. I stop caring whether we have sex. Which is never going to happen. Or we get divorced. Hence all the discussion about divorce. It is the only way to end the power struggle.

And of course there is mistrust in our marriage. My wife has lied to me. Hidden things from me. Stolen from me. Forged my name of checks. I would have to be a brain dead moron to trust her. I may be warped and sex crazed and foolish. But I ain't stupid enough to trust her.


I don't like / respect / trust myself enough to let go.

It hurts too much to treat her well and then get spat on in return. It is much easier and less painful to hate her than to love her. I am far to afraid to indulge in loving her. I understand that love is a verb. I choose not to love her. It hurts too much. The secondary gain from withdrawal stinks, but for me it beats the pain of constant rejection.

Were you always a doormat--I mean from the very beginning?

Yes, of course. Why do you ask?

Because it's a "what-came-first-chicken-or-egg" thing...

We learn to be doormats usually as kids.

As humans we’re all relational creatures so we fear loosing the relationship. But you did all this extra stuff to get sex.

Most of us want to avoid conflict, so we will give in, not realizing that we are training the person to treat us this way in the future. And you gave in more than most because you wanted sex.

But you caused more damage than you would think, because you were not treating your wife like an adult and besides you ended up getting angry or resentful, and showed by your attitude that you really didn't want to be as accommodating as you were.

If you came into the marriage as a doormat, why are you always blaming her?

Because she lied. To herself as much as to me.

I would have been very happy to spend my life being a doormat. I wanted to be "whipped". I just wanted to get to pet the kitty in return. I told her this before we got married. She did not believe me. She thought I was being modest. She never wanted to be married to a doormat. She lost all respect and attraction for me when she realized I really was a doormat. But by then we were married and neither one of us wanted to pull the trigger quickly. Our heads were filled with thoughts of vows and commmitment and being married forever. We had kids right away because we got married in our 30's and figured it was time to get started on the next phase of life. So we didn't realize what a tragic mistake we had made until it was too late.

I don't blame her for my being a doormat. I blame her for not accepting that I really was a doormat until after we got married. And not being honest about whether she could be satisfied being married to a doormat.

Maybe I am fooling myself. I know most women would rather be married to a strong self-reliant man. But surely there are SOME women who want to be married to a soft cuddly touchy feely metrosexual kind of guy? I disn't have any problem talking about my feelings. I said I love you frequently. I made lots of silly romantic gestures. Isn't there SOME woman out there who wants that in a guy and in willing to overlook the lack of backbone?

Which is besides the point. The main reason I never treated my wife like an adult is that I am not really an adult. And I hope there aren't too many women out there who want to be romantically and sexually involved with a child.

This is the EN Mrs Hold meet for Hold. Hold (I am asusming, like me) have this value placed in that.

For me, if I die today, I know in my heart that the kids will be loved and safe with the w. Despite the w not entirely "fulfilling" some of the EN that I say are my priority ENs.

I think I have begun to learn and accept that all my ENs are pretty much the same "value" but their priorities shift and change over time.

My EN for sex seems like it is always number one, and it also seems to be the most important part when I have observe that I'm aging and not the youthful, testosterone-full man I use to me. I know that sex would be zero someday, and I really would like to enjoy it as much as possible while we can, today.

My wife don't understand this, and maybe she never will. But my wife also has her "own views" about sex that does not relate to my own views, and I find it very hard to understand or accept.

When my wife posed to me the questions, "isn't it enough that we're each other's one and only lover?" "faithful?" "bore our kids?" "what about her feelings of being uncomfortable from things I want us to try?"

It is really a huge hurdle to convince someone that they may need to seek help, and they themselves don't think they need fixing.

It then comes to the basics, each of us have our own views, and imposing our views to be the correct one leads to DJ territory. It then requires a lot more effort to communicate and learn to understand and accept to even begin discussing the issue. Over time it's tiring and the thought of giving up seems easier.

Sometimes things are not okay and everything will not work out. Perhaps everything will crumble. My feeling is that if either party in a relationship is not willing to change to solve the serious problems in the relationship, then the relationship is doomed. One person cannot do all of the heavy lifting. Then there's the issue of codependency.

I tried to the best of my abilities to save my marriage and the ex was not willing to do a thing, i.e. she was not willing to affect change of any kind that would assist the relationship. These things happen. You can continue on in absolute misery or you can divorce and try to find happiness on your own. There might be at least less misery on your own, depending of course, if you can free yourself of your past.

I'm all for saving a marriage when there's some hope. I feel for Hold's sake that there is no hope and that he's extremely miserable. I'll give Hold's wife the benefit of the doubt and say that is all likelihood, she's just as miserable. There is no happy ending walking hand in hand towards the sunset. Some combinations are just toxic and the toxicity increases as time goes on. My marriage was extremely toxic to me. I can only surmise how toxic it was for the ex. Sometimes you have to evaluate your efforts as not adding value to your life. The things that don't add value should be discarded.