Mrs. Hold would not agree that her husband is sexually starved. She thinks I have unreasonable expectations for how much sex married people have. She thinks that none of her friends who are happily married are having sex, so she isn't treating me any worse than any other wife would. She thinks that any "shortfall" in our sex life is due to my misbehavior, not to her withholding / rejecting me. At least, that is what she has said to me and the MCs consistently for 10 years.

I think it flutters around in her mind that marrying her sex crazed husband was not the smartest thing she has ever done.

It is possible she regrets her own behavior but is too fearful to change. I can certainly sympathize with that. It is also possible that she is so far into denial that she doesn't permit herself to even see her role in how we got here. I don't have much sympathy for that.

Sage words that very accurately describe the dynamics of my ex-marriage. Very painful and very toxic. There were other contributing factors as well that just amplified the other effects.

Re-read what HitchHiker says above. Watch out for the warning signs in your own relationship.

I have known a lot of women who do use sex as a tool in just the way you describe.

One of them once told me out of the blue [and while holding an infant ironically] "We don't have sex anymore".

She was BRAGGING. She was delighted to share that wee bit of TMI. Delighted to have something powerfull that she could deny at will.

I wondered how her H would have felt to have been so emasculated...wondered if she was as disrespectfull when he was around to know about it.

As for HH's question..I'd have to say my experience is different.

I am naturally selfish...if it goes unchallenged..if it works for me...I probably would NOT change the behavior or the beliefs because change is difficult and unpleasant and also I am getting the milk for free..why buy the cow?

Are your misbehaving?

And where does she get the idea that your expectations are unrealistic? Did she poll all her married friends?

If she has then it is perfectly understandable that she has added to her resentment the idea that of you are responsible for making both of you feel worse than you need to.

If this is what is skewing you relationship, making it impossible for you two to improve the situation, then why isn't someone addressing this impression of hers?

One of you has bought into a lie. Either the truth is that it is easy to have great sex during a long marriage and that practically everyone else is having it--or the opposite is true.

You both can't be right.

Chances are the sex is not the major problem when circumstances like this exist, it is a symptom of poorly differentiated spouses who, much like Mr and Mrs HOLD, are emotionally gridlocked. The lack of sex is an indicator of larger problems that are at work within the intimate relationship. I also find, particularly in the U.S., that adult conversations surrounding sex tend to stereotype married sex as boring and infrequent. I find that when adults in marriages tell the real truth, and really share openly about their sex lives, the reality is very different. Somehow the Puritan and other religious influences in the U.S. have done us a LOT of harm surrounding adult sexuality in this country.


I certainly would have felt disrespected! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Ah, somehow I've not represented myself well if that was the impression I left. By default, all of us resist becoming better differentiated, we all resist real change, because as you said, it's just plain hard to change and embrace the uncertainty of starting the process of becoming a better differentiated individual. So if this is the case then why would we ever choose to become better differentiated?

We do so because the choice to resist changing, to not become better differentiated, eventually causes tension in the intimate relationship. As Schnarch says, intimate relationships are people growing machines. We cannot stay within a healthy intimate relationship and not become better differentiated people over time. When we choose to resist the process of differentiation, tension exists. This tension will eventually morph into emotional game playing and then finally emotional gridlock occurs. This process of resistance is, regretfully, pretty much what all of us choose at least initially. Once we get to the point where we're emotionally gridlocked, at least one of the spouses becomes aware that the only way to improve the marriage is to improve themselves as a person. Once one spouse starts the process of differentiation, usually the other spouse will jump on board sooner or later, either that, or the spouse attempting to better differentiate themselves will be manipulated into giving up their efforts, which leads back to emotional gridlock. If both spouses outright refuse to become better differentiated people, the intimate relationship will eventually self destruct.

So, in essence, we choose to embrace the uncertain path of becoming better differentiated as people because this choice becomes the less painful option versus having to continue to experience the certain pain of emotional gridlock.

I'm sure we've all experienced this process in our own intimate relationships.


Also, just wanted to clarify something here. Poorly differentiated people cannot "hold onto their core values" when inside of an intimate relationship. They end up sacrificing who they are, their core values and beliefs, because they cannot get close to another human being yet maintain healthy boundaries and maintain their own identity. In essence, poorly differentiated people are co-dependent, well differentiated people are inter-dependent. Changing behavior, as you said, is just fine, changing your beliefs or core values for anything external to yourself, including your spouse, is not a good thing.

Hold, thanks for the input. It sounds like your D10 is making slow and steady progress. That's really cool about the cholesterol.

Those are some good ideas, hiking, biking, tennis. I bike with D11 on the weekends, but D6 goes slower, so I go separately with her, her on the bike and me walking. I enjoy the one on one time with them. We swim, too. I talked to my H about brainstorming some family fitness, and he had another good idea, basketball.

EO~ If you are going to be in Ca this summer you can go for walks on the beach, run from the waves. Remember though, water is A LOT colder in Ca than Fl. There is Yosemite for hiking, lots of shopping/walking, in Los Angeles lol. What about rollerblading or rollerskating? We like to play laser tag, exercise without really thinking about it.

Sorry for the threadjack.

Wow, BTE, thanks for the ideas! I am looking forward to the time with the kids this summer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Everytime I read about how she looks to things to make her happy...I am remined of Ecclesiates

I am not as good a husband now as I was previously. But she made this complaint back when I was being wonderful. "Hold's misbehavior" was her standard explanation for the lack of sex even in 1998 when I had just made partner at my firm and bought us a nice house in a fancy suburb and spent most of my time trying to kiss her feet in the vain hope she would provide some sex. At that point, no, I was not misbehaving at all.


Actually, her married and formerly married friends are split on that issue. Some don't have much sex. Others have lots of sex. She has friends who broke up after one or both had physical affairs. Her best friend confided recently that sex with her overweight middle aged CPAP wearing husband is better than it was when they were younger. Mrs. Hold chooses to ignore the married friends who are having lots of sex, and the married friends who had sex outside their marriages, and focus only on the friends who don't have sex.

One time when she came back from Diva Dinner, she mentioned that one lady has sex with her husband 2 or 3 times a week and every night they sleep spooning together. Mrs. Hold asked me if I would rather be married to that friend. I said "no silly, I want to be married to you and have us behave more like friend and her husband do." Truth is, yes, I would rather be married to her friend.


No point. I know it is a DJ for me to think it or write it, but the truth is that Mrs. Hold does not permit objective reality to intrude on her view of what is appropriate.

Many posts on this forum document the occassions when Mrs. Hold has said to me "I can't believe how ___ treats her husband". When I point out to her that she shouldn't be surprised, because she treats me the same way, she denies it. No amount of evidence has ever been sufficient to get her to concede that she treats me in the same disrespectful manner as the friends she complains about. I doubt that anything I say now would make any difference in how she views the issue of sex between spouses.


It doesn't matter who is right. Even if I could convince her that she is incorrect as to whether other married couples are having sex, that isn't going to motivate her to have more sex. It will be just another example of my misbehavior that justifies her not feeling like having sex.

Mrs. Hold keeps asking me whether I want her to join us on the camping trip this weekend. Any time I point out any source of discomfort (rain in the forecast, time we will arrive at the campsite), she says I am making it seem like I don't want her to come along. Wish I knew how I felt. For now I want her switch cars with me today. And drive me to work tomorrow. So I am not going to tell her anything that might cause her to not be cooperative. I am such a wuss!

But she made this complaint back when I was being wonderful. "Hold's misbehavior" was her standard explanation for the lack of sex even in 1998 when I had just made partner at my firm and bought us a nice house in a fancy suburb and spent most of my time trying to kiss her feet in the vain hope she would provide some sex. At that point, no, I was not misbehaving at all.

________________

so, what did SHE consider as your "misbehavoir" back when you were being wonderful and trying to kiss her feet?

That I complained about the lack of sex.

That I got angry during MC sessions when she admitted that we hadn't done the prior week's homework and the MC didn't call her to the carpet about it.

That I did not provide her with enough household help, so she was tired from taking care of our kids all day every day.

Hmm, to be fair she also complained that I am a "cup half empty" person. Which is true. But I have always been that way. Guess she did not realize how much it would bother her until after we got married.

The bottom line is that all her explanations are BS. If I treated her so badly in the weeks leading up to the wedding that she didn't feel comfortable having sex with me on our honeymoon, then why did she marry me? If she was too tired from caring for the kids when they were small, then how come we did not have sex during our vacations alone together? her excuses may have a kernel of truth, but they are hiding some deeper truth that she does not want to admit openly. Whether it is how much the rapes still affect her. Or that I am lousy in bed. Or something else. I doubt I will ever know the whole truth.

The only thing I know at this point is that I can't decide who I hate more. Me or her. And Hitchhiker is correct. The most surprising thing about this situaiton is that I am so well aware of what is going on, and still unwilling to do anythng about it.

As my last psychiatrist said "the surprising thing is not that you express such strong emotions, the surprising thing is that you express them with such lack of emotion in your voice. You can state the feelings you are feeling, but as if you are describing them from afar."

It's a half-empty glass, a cup is too small! And I've developed a dodge (ala "The Wrath of Khan") for the standard scenario where the beer glass is half-empty of half-full. Instead, order two beers and when one reaches to 50% mark, you still have 150% of the total beer. Brilliant!

Certain things are just mind and energy draining to me. I cannot in practice be with the kids all day and night, and keep on doing that day after day and into the weekend.

Well, I can "IF I HAVE TO." But taking care of the kids is not the be all end all. Someone has to work and earn money.

The conflict is: How does one "judge" the value of earning money compared to taking care of the kids? What my judgement is, is not exactly the same as how my wife judge that value.

That difference spawns many other conflicts.

I don't think men fully realize how women feel about the domestic stuff.

When you work, you at least get a pay check at the end of the week. You can see the value of your efforts in black and white. But caring for a home and family is different. Your reward for cleaning a house and doing the laundry is having to do it all over again the next day.

The husband must worship her for doing the domestic stuff. Not simply appreciate her efforts--HE MUST WORSHIP HER. You are either a domestic goddess or you are a slave. There is no in between.

That is the only way a woman will EVER be happy. That is the only way a woman will not whine, nag and punish. Men who do not worship at the feet of their domestic goddesses are foolish and deserve their lot. It is such a simple thing to do and doesn't cost a dime.

Domestic goddesses who are properly worshipped are secure. They do not usually need or ask to hire help. And they do not need to show off to friends and neighbors by giving parties to prove anything to themselves.

Well, if my mistake was in not worshipping her sufficiently or properly, then I made a mistake. I thought I was kissing her feet and constantly telling her how wonderful she was and buying her everything I could afford and spending every moment of my non-working time with her. But obviously I was not worshipping her sufficiently or in the manner that she needed to be worshipped to feel appreciated.

Clearly she did not feel like a domestic goddess when we first got married, because she asked to have a maid the first day we moved into our apartment in Miami. At that time, we had no kids and she was not working outside the home. I was working day and night so I was hardly ever there during the week to make a mess. She did not cook dinner, either. I guess she did the laundry, but this was before we had kids so there wasn't nearly as much as there is now. Apparently I did not worship her sufficiently for her to feel motivated to cook or clean or do the laundry for 2 people. Of course, since I was in kiss her feet mode, she got the maid.

Eventually she got bored with staying home and just doing the laundry, so she started volunteering at a local museum. But I can see how it would be boring to stay home all day watching tv and shoping in between loads of laundry, so I can understand why she would want to do something outside the apartment even if she did feel properly worshipped.

In any event, this is more relevant for another relationship. For our marriage right now, there is no way I am going to worship her. If that makes me foolish, so be it. I am not going to kiss her feet. And if she wants me to worship her, she is going to have to do lots more kissing of parts of my body other than my feet.

pieta,

I'm a domestic god! I keep my house far more organized and cleaner than the ex did in the ex-house. I have climbed to the pinnacle of domestic godhood by completing the only task that daunted me, i.e. the solo folding of a fitted sheet. Yippee!

Booka,

You are no domestic goddess..oops, I mean god...You are just a June Cleaver.

Mrs. Cleaver may have been able to whip up a delicious lemon pie, but were they tree ripened Meyr Lemons? Where they freshly squeezed in a chrome and stainless steel commercial juicer? Did she layer her pastry with unsalted butter? Did she wield her own culinary blowtorch over the meringue to brown each perfect peak to the optimum shade of goldeness? I don't think so.

It would not be enough by today's standards to do anything--cooking, decorating, raising children, or looking good by June Cleaver's standards.

Almost all the magazine titles that are published exclusively for women are about cooking, decorating, raising children and looking good. And looking good these days is about exuding unabashed sexuality than pertness.

This all sells by making a woman feel insecure at her very essence. And if she has a husband who is critical or less than appreciative, or even oblivious to her efforts, then she gets sucked into this further.

Well, maybe if I ever have another relationship I can be more appreciative and less critical and oblivious.

Man, it is hard to just bide my time. I have strong urges to tell Mrs. Hold how I feel. It is very difficult to resist them. But my kids need me to be strong.

I don't get the domestic goddess or worship stuff, maybe I don't read the right magazines.
Granted housework (cleaning and laundry) is pretty thankless and non ending. I do as little of it as hygenically possible. The other parts of traditional motherhood I enjoyed. I never had more fun than being home with my little boys. For that my husband should have worshipped me? I would have thought he had a few screws loose.
I liked cooking then, and I like it now. I appreciate the thanks and praise, but I don't expect worship.