Vince:

Date Her!

Date Her!

Date Her!

Fun and excitement!

That should be Vince. Not the guy calling at midnight. Who offers all that...

She came over and spent the night?

So pound it buddy. In the most exciting and enticing ways possible.

Or.

Decide.

That.

This.

Is.

Not.

Your.

Kind.

Of.

Woman.

And find another one.

There are all types of women out there. If she wants to party, and Vince ain't willing, then make that choice.

I get disappointed when a WS states what they want. It's always "fog" or "rewriting history".

Your W is different now. She may not be the same "good girl" she used to be. She may not have ever felt comfortable in that. But some of what a WS is true. And you have to look inside yourself to see if you can change enough to really become the person she wants you to be.

And WW can party every night. There are opportunities available to women who are interested in that. Doesn't mean that this is the future for you and her. Just means that WW needs to know that Vince can loosen up and have a good time on a regular basis.

I am not discounting much of what she says is bunk. However, you have to know that some of it is true.

So, decide.

Every W is worth fighting for. But you have to become the man to make the fight happen. And when the time comes to battle, you melt.

Follow through with your plan. Graycloud has some excellent advice.

LG

VS,

This is the story I've been looking for!

You need to read this to see how sitting on the fence hurts you! It's a great inspiration to BSs everywhere.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=014880;p=1

VS,

I started re-reading "Man's Search for Meaning" this morning and started asking myself what you might be thinking as you read it.

There are a few things you will hopefully see. First, nothing you and I are going through or went through compares with the devastation brought by a concentration camp. However, taken from a broader perspective, it is a good example of coping with loss and the attempt to find meaning out of that loss. The question that the book helps guide you to answer is, "what is the meaning of life?"

In the end, you're the only one that can answer that question. Several things stood out to me as I read that book.

I came upon a passage that simply said, "An abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation is normal behavior."

This struck me like lightning when I first read it. I had spent a lot of time punishing myself for my response to my ex's infidelity. Why couldn't I be stronger? Why didn't I act with more strength? Why don't I behave with dignity?

That passage let me see and accept that it was ok for me to react as I did and behave very much out of the norm. I spied. I obcessed. I cried. I screamed in anger and cried in agony.

I suddenly found myself suspicious of the one person I trusted dearly. Abnormal behavior in an abnormal situation.

I read the book and found in it the stages of finding hope after a loss and grasping at anything which might provide it. He speaks of camp inmates being consumed by the longing for their loved ones and their beloved. It is the hope they clung to after having lost everything.

Similarly, we cling to the scraps of hope. "She says she wants to go to a movie." "She looks like the wife I knew and love, even if it is only for a brief second." "She wants to spend the night in bed with me."

These are false hopes. Yet we cling to them.

He talks about how when a person is stripped of everything and is down the very basic instincts that make him human, he as an individual has to find the one thing in his life that gives him the will to carry on. THAT is the meaning of life.

I read these things as I sat in the hospital at Walter Reed and they struck me each time I read them. I highlighted passages and read them to other patients experiencing similar issues.

No, my experience was nothing like his. It was suffering of a different type. I found myself unemployed, living off the charity of friends in their home, separated from my children, in financial trouble, divorced, grieving over the loss of the woman I loved so deeply, with an unknown future. I had lost absolutely everything.

One year later - I have a great job making a good income. I see my kids more, though not as often as I'd like but that will change over the next 2 years. I am about to buy a home for myself and my kids. I no longer grieve over my ex wayward wife and even see advantages in no longer having her in my life. I'm working out and getting in shape and seeing results. Yesterday I spoke to a pretty woman on the metro and got her number. Nothing may ever come of it, but it felt good to do. I've had a few dates in the last few weeks. I have re-established lost friendships and there is a chance I may end up with the woman I should have been with all along. A woman that has been a dear friend for a long time and there's a chance it may become more than that some day. There is hope in my future and I look forward to what it may bring.

It gets better. And you need to find the thing that motivates you outside of your wife. For me it was my kids. Their existence and the example I would set for them is all the motivation I need.

You need to find what it is for you.

I did things as a result of reading this book which are very interesting now that I go back and read my own notes.

Write a journal. This site can be your journal. Keep a private one where you write your own fears, pain, thoughts, and plans.

You'll be surprised that you will transition from first person, to third person. You will write to yourself, as a form of self parenting. An imaginary coach in your mind that tells you to be strong, be a man again, not cry anymore over someone that isn't worth it. You'll write these things down and they will be empty words at first. But you read them to yourself over and over and like a drill sergeant pushing a fat kid to become a steely soldier, you too will go from being a mushy pile of emotional goo to a man you can be proud to look at in the mirror.

Read the book. Highlight it. It's a very short read and you'll be surprised in how deep it is and how much it will impact you.

I just want to encourage you that it gets better.

VS,

I have been reading Sadmo's thread about her WH.

Take her story and learn from it. Your w would be vulnerable to a similar plan. Look at how empowering it is for her to do the 180 and get her WH guessing.

Read it along with the example of the success story I sent you. THESE examples are what you need to do. When you feel weak and start wavering, think of them!

It will completely throw your W for a loop if she thinks you're moving on.

Read them and let me know your thoughts.

Broken, I can't say how much I appreciate your interest in my horrible situation and willingness to help. I will read the threads you mentioned above. I am halfway through the book you mentioned above, 'Man's Search for Meaning'. It is VERY good. I am giving to my brother after I have finished. Thanks again for the recommendation.

Also, the above posts are excellent by everyone. I am getting much better and having far less 'breakdowns' and emotional moments.

Now, that being said, I may have made a MAJOR mistake. But I will let you all be the judge. As you know, we were supposed to go to the movies last night. She emailed me at 4pm asking when I was coming over and what movie we were going to see. I didn't respond. She then called twice and text'd me twice and called to more times, up until 11 at night. Calls were left w/voicemails asking me to call her back and what was going on, and her texts said she was worried, and 'are you ditching me', 'i hope you are ok'. Thing is, I just didn't feel like seeing her last night. The last 2 days she called me and only because she needed something, which really rubbed me the wrong way. Even her first call last night was to ask me to bring some of her dresses over and to remind me to bring the dog papers. So that just really ticked me off. I'm tired of her only calling when she needs something.

So, I didn't call her back or contact her in anyway. She called 4 more times today and text'd me 2 more times saying 'what is going on' and 'i am worried about you, plz call me'.

So, EXPERTS, did I screw this one up? I don't know what to say to her now or what. I blew my chance to spend a night with her when she ACTUALLY invited me to hangout and she FOLLOWED through. But, on the other hand, it definitely has got her blood flowing and thinking about me and that I am not always going to be there at her every beck and call.

Advice, kickmedowns, etc???
VS

Is she still having an affair Vince, still in contact? If not then why did you not just go and have a fun evening with no expectations except to have fun, keep it light for now and so on? Why did you get all passive aggressive w/ her?

CALL her and tell her your feelings were hurt and that you therefore responded like a teenager instead of the man you are and for that you apologize and are sorry. Ask her to allow you to take her out again ASAP for fun only, no R talk at this time.

I agree with hap.

In fu2re, you should tell her if you change your mind about getting 2gether, don't just stand her up. But it's okay 2 just say "I don't feel like it" if you decide you don't want 2.

You want 2 put an end 2 game-playing, not perpe2ate it.

-ol' 2long

You guys are cat and mousing eachother to death. You go chasing after her and so she says she doesn't want anything to do with you....you don't call her for a bit and comes chasing after you and then you ignore her.

Dude...make up your mind and follow through with one thing or the other.

Either you want to be with her or you don't.

If you want to be with her, then do what you can to win her back.

If you don't, just deal with it and move on.

But man, stop playing games.

I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but it's getting a little old hearing you say you love her, want her more than anything, cry when she is there, cry when she leaves, call her 5 times a day...then when she calls you...you ignore her and say you don't want to talk to her.

I can only hope that you see what you are doing here. It isn't healthy. And I'm talking about you here. Regardless of whether or not she is hurt and is playing with you or not, you have a choice in how you act and react to her.

My advice would be to sit down and figure out what you want. If you decide that you want to be with her, talk to her or write her a letter or something saying that you have been confused by all of the junk you have been going through lately and it is affecting your decision making but that you have decided that you would like it to work out and that you are willing to work on the marriage if she stops the affair but that you can't keep playing games anymore.

If you decide that you've had enough, again, call or write and tell her that you can't deal with the emotional rollercoaster anymore. Waiting for her to call, her not calling, waiting for her to come over only to cancel late at night, phone tag, etc. Tell her the game playing will only end up causing ill feelings between the two of you the longer you string it out and that no progress towards reconsiliation is really happening at the moment and for that reason you've decided that it's best if you don't see eachother for a while. Then you wait for her to either ditch the OM and persue reconsiliation, or file for a D.

Either way you need to make a choice and stick with it and stop playing games. Games are for high school. It's time to buck up and either get serious about saving your marriage, or get serious about moving on with your life.

I think my post got misinterpreted.

I didn't purposely 'stand her up' I actually had something to do last night and just didn't feel like calling her back. I had full intentions of going to the movie with her and was looking forward to it until the phone call the previous night saying "bring the dog stuff". And with her track record of breaking plans 99% of the time, I had made backup plans. Well, when I didn't hear from her until 4:30pm, I had already assumed that we were not doing anything, so I went with my other plans and didn't have my phone with me. I was heeding the advice on her to stop calling and texting her all the time, so I left it in her hands to see if she wanted to hangout, or break plans as usual. I thought I was doing the right thing here by having a life outside of her and not waiting around for her. I figured if we were going to go the movie, I would of heard something from her before 4:30PM, so I was expecting no call, or the usual 'i don't want to hangout tonight.

So, I was not playing games, just trying to do what everyone has told me to do and actually have a life and have things to do other than her.

Thoughts?
VS

Vince... you have to be one of the most immature 30 year olds I have ever encountered. YOU stood her up... and you didn't even have the balls to answer or return her call... you should have when you made other plans let her know... it is called courtesy. Now for me to suggest that you owe your ww courtesy means you really screwed up... since I think you should dump her. But come on dude... you are a friggin dog chasing its tail...no one has told you to act like a 5 year old so don't blow smoke up our hinds saying you were doing what everybody told you to do.

Seriously... grow up and decide what you want to do with your life.... the clock is ticking and you are running out of time.

My thought still remains:

You should have told her of your change of plans. it's okay that you changed your mind, considering the his2ry, but it's not okay that you, in effect, did the same thing 2 her that you perceive she's done 2 you.

That is game playing.

-ol' 2long

Also, I believe her affair is 100% over, but I do not believe she is 'acting like a married woman', which also has me a bit confused, along with her words of 'i don't want to be married anymore, i don't want to be with you anymore, i don't want this life anymore, i made a mistake, etc'

I know what I want. I want us to get to a place where we are both working on reconciliation. Whether we are successful in that reconciliation, is another story. But I want to die knowing we gave this everything we've got.

Yes, I will agree then that I probably messed up by not calling her last night, but I truly believed we were not going to have plans and I was not going to be stood up again. So I made other plans and am trying desperately to get my life together and have other things to do, as suggested here.

I agree with everything said above as far as playing games, making up my mind, etc. I guess I wasn't specific enough in my post, or maybe I truly am playing games, but it is not my intention. If I had known we were going to hangout for sure, I would not have made other plans and went out with someone else (a dude).

It is a little rude that you are tired of hearing me say I love my WW, and cry about her and ignore her. I haven't ignored her, as I can not call from work. I will call her when I get home tonight and explain everything to her like a MAN. But, I guess I wouldn't blame you for being a little frustrated. This is my life, and I am doing the best I can with the situation God has dealt me.

Also, I changed anti-deps Monday, and stopped by old stuff cold turkey, as directed by my primary care physician, so it has me acting a little strange right now. Maybe that played a part in my hastiness of just going out and not waiting around for her. I don't know. I really thought i was doing the right thing by having a life and not being available for her every beck and call. Guess not.

VS

MEDC - I didn't have my phone with me and I can not call her until I get off work. I didn't see her messages until 1:30am last night. I am going to call her right after work. What else could I have done? I really didn't expect her to call me at all, let alone 7 times. I really didn't at all. I was really surprised when i got home and saw that.

Real nice post btw. Show me where people didn't suggest me getting on with my life, having other plans, not responding to her every call, bein unavailable, etc. Thats not smoke up your [censored], its reality. Name calling has a great effect in making soemone realize errors in their ways.

Immature beyond words Vince. What you could and should have done was let her know that YOU were changing plans. YOu stop at a pay phone ....anything... just don't be a jerk and a wimp playing this cat and mouse game. If you were like this in your M you have a lot of serious work to do....if you are like this as a result of her A... you have a lot of serious work to do.
Stop making excuses and start acting like a man. In my two years here... you have to be among the top three people that I have run into that continually gets in his own way.
Seriously Vince, it is time for you to grow up.

MEDC

I am sorry this is all coming across as harsh...it just seems that NOTHING gets through to you.

More bull dung... of course that has been suggested to you... that does not mean you need to be immature in how you act.

vince:

The only way for this back-and-forth 2 stop is for one of you 2 simply stop. If either one of you makes the decision not 2 participate, then it's made, and the games stop. It's that simple.

...though nobody ever said it's "easy."

-ol' 2long

It's amazing how little she cares for you. Joking.


Then you should have broken the date beforehand. You owe her an apology.


If her requests bother you then say "Sorry, I can't do it. You'll have to come pick it up" or whatever. Don't get resentful and take it out on her later. That's conflict-avoiding behavior, frankly typical of people who have wayward-spouse tendencies. You don't want to be one of those - right? - so face your problems immediately when they arise.

Back to the plans you blew off - see how she packages a date with a task? Clever girl. See how she plays with the circumstances? Prepare for this stuff! She'll do it again.


This was rude of you, definitely.


Yeah you screwed it up, but it isn't the end of the world, it's one night.

Apologize. Don't make excuses. Don't say I'm sorry BUT blah blah YOU blah blah. Just be sorry. Period. Take all the blame. You were totally inconsiderate. Tell her you don't have a good explanation. You just made other plans and it was a sh*tty thing to do.

GC

Vince,

It is ok for you to make mistakes and people here are a little harsh on you for messing this up. I screwed a lot up while in the middle of all of this.

I think the best suggestion so far has been the one about writing her a letter letting her know about your confusion. I would apologize for not letting her know that you went to your backup plans.

You can tell her that you had backup plans based on the amount of times she has cancelled on you and that you thought she would do it again so you had plans that you decided to follow at 4:30.

In the future I would get to 4:30, call her and simply ask if she was still coming out or not, and then let her know you're going to your other plan.

Apologize for not calling her to let her know and tell her why you did it and follow the advice on the letter. Letting her initiate the contact is good. Returning a call is ok.

Vince,

People want to hang around other people that make them feel good about themselves.

This is what you need to remember. There was a point in your relationship where you LBed and your WW didn't feel good about herself. Your M was vulnerable to an A in part because OM made her feel good about herself at the time (albeit because he wanted to get in her pants) by meeting her ENs for conversation and admiration. Your job is to win your WW back by making her feel good about herself again. You have an obvious impediment because of the guilt she harbors about cheating on you. This is what you must overcome. That is why you can't cry or act needy around her. This makes her feel guilty and not feel good about herself; therefore, she won't want to be around you. If you can make her feel good about herself again while at the same time not being a doormat, you will win your WW back. Your interactions with her should be about how you can make her feel good about herself again with you.

Graycloud - Thanks for the constructive criticism, its appreciate and much better received than name calling, which ironically, is immature. I will unequivocally apologize, although my intentions were 100% to not blow her off. I truly thought that we were not going to hangout. If I would of known that she wanted to a little earlier, I would of went out with her no doubt, even though I wasn't feeling all that great about her at the time. I want to make the most out of every opportunity I have, because they are usually few and far between.

broken - yea, I screwed up and I kn ow it, and have NO PROBLEM admitting that, and I will. I didn't want to call her at 4:30 to ask if the plans were still on because I didn't want to come off as needy and be saying things like "so are we going out or what? I haven't heard from you and was just wondering if we were still going out...."etc. etc. I wanted to play it cool, like, if she called or emailed and said she wanted to hangout, then great, if not, then I would have my back plan like so many of you have suggested to me. I really thought I was doing the right thing by going on about my day and not dwelling on her not calling me or firming up our plans. As I said, I didn't have my phone on me and didn't see that she had called until 1:30am. My reason for not calling from a pay phone or my friends cell was that I truly wanted to sow her that I have a life and it doesn't revolve around her. I had no idea at the time that she had been calling and actually, FOR ONCE, wanted to hangout.

jmwc - I understand completely. I'm working hard to get there. I really am. I'm trying to be as good as her as I can. I brought her a card and flowers Sunday night after she spent the night with me Saturday night just to let her know I appreciated it and that it was nice to have her back next to me, even if for one night. She even got a real short haircut Sunday and was very insecure about it, but I made sure to tell her right after and even later that night when I came over how cute she looked. I'm working on it bro, I am.

VS