Silent:

The biggest thud on my heart, is when Flamingo states "How I was, and What I Did"

Whether it was during the A or before.

I can not change the past, I can only address where I am now, and I try to make amends by not acting that way anymore.

Was I a bad Dad? Yes. I know this. I do not need to be reminded of it.

Was I a Bad Husband? Yes. I know this. I do not need to be reminded of it.

Was I a Bad friend? Yes. I know this. I do not need to be reminded of it.

Was I *fill in the blank* Yes. I know this. I do not need to be reminded of it.

There will be a time and place to address this in converstation with your H.

Trying to bring it up, or seek resolution, at the WRONG time, will create more turbulance in your Recovery than is needed.

You have all the MB principles at your disposal, and PWC does not.

He can seek your forgiveness for some of the horrible things he has done, but he will never be able to address each and every one.

And you have already started addressing some of your issues in regards to coming to grips with how you were in the M prior to the A.

PWC can never question that period, because the response is: "Well you had an A!"

So, he has no safe place. Please give it to him.

Let him be Dad as well. Give him that space, and then discuss with him later outlines of discipline, schooling, bedtimes, etc, that help him become a better Dad. Get these issues in sync with you. That is something Flamingo and I have really worked on. Still working on.

BTW:
I like the Anger Bank reference, it makes sense as well...

Just my .02

LG

This was very hard for me too SL. At first I took every opportunity to "remind" FWH of things he had done and the way he was and to "teach" him. I finally settled down and started working on ME. (Then I found MB and learned a lot more!)

My FWH has come to these kinds of realizations on his own, but boy oh boy, did it take a long time! He has come to me now several times and asked to talk about things in the past and to apologize. Mimi and LG are dead on about this. Just continue to work on you and your PRESENT relationship with PWC.

PWC will catch up with you eventually.

I think about this sometimes. I have promised myself and the SCQ that I will never use this against her (if she returns). I know that she has a lot of pain coming, and I actually would spare her as much of that as possible because I believe it was a simple mistake that grew into a terrible one and addiction and temporary insanity. At the same time, I feel like I will need to know that she knows it was a mistake and wrong. I know that it won't happen as soon as I would like, if ever. I'm not sure how I will handle this (if I get the opportunity).

SL,

I too struggle with the control issue re the kids...it is an area you HAVE to relinquish. You take away a piece of his masculinity when you take over. Walk away...breathe, let him be the dad, even if you disagree slightly or a lot. It will all be worth it in the grand scheme of things...and in all honesty will lift a burden and a weight that you were never meant to carry alone!

You are amazing! You're my hero!

Thanks for all of the insightful thoughts. I so appreciate them. I'm not blame shifting here. I wanted to point out that I said nothing since PWC has been home about him NOW being a bad dad. HE was referencing the past, and I answered honestly. I don't think lying to him about how I felt THEN serves any purpose.

I didn't intend on having any conversations about bad things that WERE said on either side of this coin. I haven't shoved any of the past in his face. I am working on this, too, I guess. Lots of pain, and maybe some bubbles up in conversation. I will work on this.

I am feeling a lot of pain today; much affair stuff boiling to the surface. PWC is unhappy with the exchange of email and bank info. He said he feels it's a love buster that I ask him to reveal his passwords and such. I really don't have a good response for this. I told him that I was following MB, but I would like to discuss his ideas and/or alternatives to this. Honestly, having the info will not stop him from cheating, if he really wants to. For me, it'a an exercise in trust. I haven't even looked at his accounts.

I feel a downhill coming up, and I'm preparing to watch my P's and Q's. I will not be bringing up relationship woes in conversation. I rarely do, and I certainly don't maliciously plan it; sometimes our conversations evolve, and discussions about the past happen. I'm trying to avoid them. I, honestly, do not sit around chastising him for his mistakes. I DON'T. I WON'T. The playing field isn't level with that kind of arsenal.

I'm pretty sad this afternoon--seeing past ghosts, memories of my poor behavior, mixed with memories of the past two years. YUCK! I wish I could just trust him like I used to, not that it would solve our problems; it would probably compound them, because I had BLIND trust. If I did trust him, and didn't feel the need to BE ABLE to look at his accounts, maybe he would be happier, feel more safe. I wouldn't feel safe.

I will continue to work on me, as I am doing today. I've noticed, as of late, it is PWC bringing up the past, or not being comfortable with my request for information. Am I not supposed to ask for anything? I'm a little confused. I thought that the exchange of email passwords and banking info was part of the process. If not, what are your suggestions along these lines?

Hi SL ~ asking for your husband's passwords is a selfish demand. So...your husband is right.

This is why Steve Harley was so helpful in our ability to recover. Steve told my husband what he needed to do for me, the demand did not come from me.

Have you gotten your husband to talk to the Harleys?

Hey BR, thanks for stopping by.

He talked to Jennifer once, during our false recovery. I think it is time to bring in the big guns to help us both. I guess my question is, should I give him back the information, the passwords, or should I just leave that one be?

I had made this DEMAND as part of ending Plan B, but I can rethink it if you guys think it is harmful. I do not want him to feel that I am invading his privacy. I, too, handed over my email and bank info. (I only planned on invading his SECRECY)

I wouldn't necessarily call this a demand.

It was a condition that he agreed to. Now he doesn't want to live up to that agreement.

The Policy of Radical Honesty
Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

I just cut and pasted that in here.

For me I am completely open and honest with my FWW. She has access to everything of mine. E mail, bank statement, cell phone bill etc.

Why not we are married and I have nothing to hide. I don't consider it to be an invasion of privacy.

I think what bothers me is he agreed to it and now doesn't want to live up to that. It may set a precedent.

SL if he said to you before you ended plan B that he wouldn't agree what would you have done?

Maybe POJA on a different solution? I don't know but to agree then say he doesn't like it seems a bit unfair.

Just my opinion.

Well, Frog, this is the real situation. I have been hearing a lot of fogginess lately. This is not the only incidence. I did ask for this as a condition of ending Plan B, and he agreed, whatever it takes.

I'm trying to find an alternative, or get feedback as to what I should do now. I don't even really care about UNFAIR as much as I care about what the REASON is for not wanting to divulge this info. PWC's reaction discourages me, and makes me want to shield myself. My boundaries are in place, but as LG states, PWC is not as backed by MB as I am, and must catch up.

I have the guage myself, and act accordingly. My mantra, "I can only control myself, and attempting to control others is disrespectful".

I wonder if it's just so early in recovery, and he feels like I'm a spy, and therefore feels the need to protect himself against me. However, if there is nothing to hide, where is the fear coming from?

Right you shouldn't try to control him I agree 100% with that.

I guess my concern is similar to yours. Why does he need privacy first.

I honestly feel in my life I gave up my right to privacy when I agreed to get married. I traded it for a union and sharing everything. Not a bad trade if you ask me.

I think having secrets is bad for an M. Like private email accts etc.

That was the point I was making with the radical honesty quote that I never put together. LOL.

Working and typing is getting harder and harder.

I just think he put you in a lose lose sitch here. If you continue down the path you want them he may resent you and if you give in you may resent him.

My only true advice is to ask him if he objected why did he agree before.

When I told my FWW I would be checking she objected at first. I pointed out she had access to all of mine. Then I asked if she had anything to hide. If not then it should be no big deal.

It isn't an invasion of privacy if you don't expect privacy.

Are you doing any MC? If not, isn't it time for that?

We haven't been in any MC, and have been discussing it, but we must both agree before the step is made. I think we're there, but I need to discuss it with PWC. The last time we spoke, he was saying that he believed we needed help.

I would like the counsel of the Harley's but I don't think we can afford it. In that case, we will have to look locally, and with that, you never know what you're going to get.

Frog, his reaction lately only reinforces ME not feeling safe. I understand his need to feel safe, and I am doing all that I can. I'm not trying to be RIGHT here. I'm trying to do what is best for recovery. If this is not it, and others believe that having his accounts is unnecessary, and have alternatives to building trust, I'm all for it.

Truth is, he/I can still cheat, this is no safeguard; you just open a NEW account. It's pretty simple really, so having his accounts info doesn't really instill a sense of safety in me; again, I see it as a trust building tool, not THE trust builer. This will come with time and reinforcemnent.

This may even be blown way out of proportion, and may pass with time. We've both said how we feel; he feels that his privacy is invaded, which I agree that it is, as mine is. PWC said that he really did not want MY account info. I conveyed to him that we are coming from opposite sides of the recovery coin, and will need to POJA, but he has to make me aware of his feelings BEFORE he gives over the info. We cannot discuss things if he refuses to stand up and tell me. I know that this is hard for him, he feels defeated before the fight, but I have given him very little reason, since recovery began, to believe that his words will fall on deaf ears.

We are forgetting that he is in WITHDRAWAL..the drug is calling out to him...he is wanting to turn back to get that HIGH..who wants to be living out here in the NORMAL world?...he is VULNERABLE right now and needs to be using EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS..which include COMPLETE OPENNESS AND HONESTY with YOU....

I don't think it's DEMANDING for you to say: " The most important thing to me is you and our marriage. I want to do my part in PROTECTING it. So I'm speaking up to ask you to continue to work with me on a PLAN OF PROTECTION that we both can live with. To me, that means RADICAL HONESTY...etc"

How can RADICAL HONESTY not be a GOOD THING? It leads to INTIMACY, getting closer to your spouse than to anyone else in the world. We were married over 25 years or so before my H's affair and have just now achieved this and SHOULD have been working towards this all along. I think it's the way that marriage is supposed to be in order to PROTECT IT from OUTSIDE INVASION..everything out on the table...my H's business associates make cracks about me reading his E-Mail..but we don't care...he wants me to... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

During your phase, SL, I studied and encouraged my H to work towards following the FOUR RULES below:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html

Disclaimer: I don't know how I did this. I'm aware that it takes alot of GUTS, STRENGTH, POWER FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT...anything and everything you can use as a resource...

But I'm recalling that in EARLY RECOVERY, my H definitely was not "IN LOVE" with me..Yes, he knew he wanted the marriage, wanted to work on it, wanted to be with me, etc...BUT, he was wanting to be "IN LOVE", feel that "THRILL" of the A..whatever...

I remember telling him: "You will fall in love with me again" and that became MY GOAL..like I was telling you about me LEADING...I focused on MY GIVER..kept MY TAKER locked up and focused on GIVING, GIVING, GIVING..meeting his PRIMARY ENs...minimal to NO RELATIONSHIP TALK..focusing on the present..NOT GOING THERE WITH HIM..cause I had to keep the TAKER locked up...

We are forgetting that he is in WITHDRAWAL..the drug is calling out to him...he is wanting to turn back to get that HIGH..who wants to be living out here in the NORMAL world?...he is VULNERABLE right now and needs to be using EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS..which include COMPLETE OPENNESS AND HONESTY with YOU....


This is why I exchanged the info with him, for complete openness and honesty. *I* don't want to fall prey to the glimmer of EASY, and falter in our recovery EITHER. This is about OUR vulnerability, not just PWC's. Also, I want to show him ,by giving him MY info that I am going to change, to do whatever it takes to make a safe haven for our M. I WANT THIS.

I know he is in withdrawal, and it may last months. We are only, I repeat, ONLY, in month two. It's early yet. The information exchange is a large step amongst all of our baby steps. He feels uncomfortable right now. I recognized that, and told him that it is strange and different for me, also, this level of sharing. I told him that I am working on finding ways to show him that he can trust me.

Withdrawal probably has a lot to do with his moods. He is up, literally, one minute, then down the next. He's not really emotive, so it's subtle, but I see it, and that's when my giver kicks in. I'm not SMOTHERING him, but I am giving hugs and kisses, listening to the anecdotes, listening, being there for him.

Mimi is right on this one. I am now turning MY focus back on to me. I am not talking R talk--it is too damaging right now--moves us back two squares. When he begins to go there, back to the past, I need to find ways to bring it back to now. I need to work on letting that GIVER roam free; working against that fear that says 'only give as much as he's giving'. That's just ridiculous. I need to be doing more, and I am going to.

I thank you all for hearing me, guiding me; you are life savers. I'm not even kidding on that one.

SL,

It is also about transparency and trust.

Transparency is a big part of the recovery process. Being willing to share. NO MORE SECRETS. Open and honest conversation.

The less walls that are built the closer you can be. Half truths, secrets, lies, lies through omission, needing privacy. IMVHO they all build walls.

Look at the wall this simple thing is building. I like your approach and I think you are a mile ahead in this area compared to your (hey what does PWC stand for?) PWC.

Have you said to him, I WOULD RATHER BE MARRIED THEN RIGHT IS A NEW MANTRA OF YOURS.

It is a pretty simple equation the more honest you are, the less secrets you keep, the more I know you to be truthful the more I will trust you.

I would think about letting it go for now.

I would think about a pro marriage MC. They are usually partially covered by insurance.

PWC= Poopsie Waffle Chunks. It came from a thread that, I believe, Pep started a while back.

I agree with openness and honesty. PWC is not yet in the same place I am. He speaks of his discomfort, and I acknowledge it. I don't see any other way for us to move forward but to have this as a learning tool.

PWC spoke to Jennifer in February, at which time, the MB principles were introduced to him. The four rules were discussed. Now, we have to work on implementing them--THE HARD PART.

We'll get there, but, as Frog, Mimi, and LG have all said, I am more learned in the MB principles, and need to work with him on this, make a place of safety.

My question still remains, how much should I be asking of him RIGHT NOW, while in withdrawal and just learning how to be open and honest? I do not want to push, but we need to move forward, even if it's ever so slowly. I feel like we ARE, which is good. I want to keep the barrell rolling.

If you called me that we would be fighting. LOL.


This is weird I got a fortune cookie the other day, and I am not kidding, and it gave me the answer.

BE REASONABLE IN YOUR EXPECATIONS.

That is your answer. I think that is one of the firt times I actually used the advice in a fortune cookie.

You know your "PWC" I really wish I didn't ask what that meant now. You know him better then anyone.

I don't say judge him or project on him but you know if something is up. So tread lightly at those times.

You know my son's IC gave us a bit of advice with him that works for everyone I think.

IF all else fails hug him. No words just a big, long, strong hug and an I love you.

As long as you see he is not sliding back you are fine. This is a marathon roller coaster.

Here are some things that I miss (only temporary)

--warm hugs
--soft, long kisses
--touching the small of my back
--sex
--feeling completely comfortable with each other
--talking
--sitting closely, so I can drape my legs over him
--feeling close, not artificial
--my husbands smile, his laugh

Don't get me wrong, I'm doing many of these things, just PWC is not reciprocating or he feels tense when *I* do them. Anyway, I don't think this will be forever. Just putting it into words. These are some GOALS of mine, to keep giving these things, without looking for him to do them, too. I feel good, just miss these things that close couples feel without much thought.

warm((((((((((((SL)))))))))))))))))))warm