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guy smiley,
To ME, you don't sound like a broken record. WE are not in MC, because WE haven't made that choice. *I* have stated that I believe that MC or guidance from the Harley's could help him to find a voice, a safe place to talk about the problems that WE have. HE is not answering that request. HE says not much of anything.

So, what if you just scheduled an appointment with the Harleys and said "I think it would be great if you participated in this."

By the way, you're still my hero.

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FEAR ALERT

What if I am not always strong enough to keep on kicking, treading water. Am I allowed to just lick my wounds now and then? Do I always have to put on a happy face? I am feeling so wounded right now. Some of the things that PWC has said this weekend were very hurtful, even malicious (in my opinion). I have apologized, certainly. HE has not.

I apologize for every slight, every pain, every wrong word that I know of, that comes from me.

What if I can't tread water that day? Can I hold onto another raft and coast for a bit? Seriously, I really need to know that dailies, of what to do when you have fallen down.

It's so tough to touch and kiss someone who has no visible reaction to the act of love. It's painful.

I think people are fearful due to what I'm posing, fearful of attempting recovery. I don't want to convey that message. I believe in recovery, I believe in correcting my issues and working toward a better me.

princessmeggy, you are so dang right, you have no idea until you get here, no idea...


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Sorry, I don't have an answer to your tough questions. I'm thinking of you and have complete confidence that you can do this.

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I think people are fearful due to what I'm posing, fearful of attempting recovery. I don't want to convey that message.


These are our fears, SL. Don't take them on yourself. We'll work through our stuff, you work through yours. It is what it is.

I'm looking forward to seeing what answers you receive. Hang in there, SL. Those that make it say it was totally worth it.

((((SL))))

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oh guy smiley, thank you for bolstering me.

I have to do something, even if it's only for me.

I don't really know what to say to Steve H or Jennifer C, if I do call. I will be talking ONLY about my perspective, and I wonder how helpful that can be for recovery if the FWS isn't in on the session.

Any suggestions are fine with me. See here's the thing, *I* feel like I am getting great advice by just coming to the boards on the regular. People chiming in, helping me to see where some line of thinking may be flawed and giving suggestions on HOW to work on that. I am challenged here. I am not coddled, nor doesn anyone say "Oh, poor SL, yeah, it's all your husband's fault". Not once have I gotten that line.

I've never been in MC, so I have no idea if it will be helpful to me ALONE. Any suggestions, again, are welcome.


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Well, so I would set up the appointment hoping that PWC would join you, because that will likely give you the biggest benefit. Even if he doesn't, you will still get good information. Just start with the situation: "We've entered recovery, and I want to know whether we're going about it the right way. I was hoping that PWC would join me, but here I am." Maybe even record the session so that PWC can listen later.

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What if I am not always strong enough to keep on kicking, treading water. Am I allowed to just lick my wounds now and then? Do I always have to put on a happy face? I am feeling so wounded right now.


I don't think you need to put on a happy face. I think it's a good idea to tell him HOW HURT you are feeling. Why does he need to say he's sorry, though? Was he saying things that he wants you to know? Just wondering...I do think there's a need for him to apologize if his DELIVERY was inappropriate, though


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Silent,

I want to gently and loving challenge you a little tiny bit on one thing. Be completely honest. You are one entity in this marriage...PWC is another entity...and the marriage is it's own whole entity. It seems to me that YOU are doing some personal recovering, separate from PWC's or the marriage's recovery. I can not tell if PWC is really doing personal growth--you are there and may be a better judge of that. But I *CAN* say that your marriage as an entity may be hitting some tough patches and may not be "in recovery". Here's why I gently present this challenge.

In my mind, a marriage that is recovering as an entity would have both of you working on your personal issues -AND HAVE THE TWO OF YOU WORKING ON THE MARRIAGE. I mean, making the marriage a safe, loving haven of a place for both of you. I see you being patient, working on yourself, trying to understand what PWC is/is not doing...but I don't see him making the marriage a safe, haven of a place for you. If he were, you would not have to always tread water. If you felt hurt or wounded due to his choice to have an A, you would be safe to express that AND receive a safe response where he accepts personal responsibility.

In real life, at first WS's do experience withdrawal from their A and OP...but this has been going on for a while. Thus, in my loving opinion, if you WERE to talk to the Harley's, I would approach it as if the Marriage was it's own entity...and it has done 'not too much' to recover! I think you keep waiting for PWC to get out of "withdrawal" and he is using it as an excuse to not have to treat you very well or consider YOUR wounds or YOUR EN's. Thus, in counseling with the Harleys, I'd ask them for directions on how to make the MARRIAGE recover. You are recovering as a human being. PWC may or may not be recovering. Right now, your Marriage as a being is stalling.

BTW, I present this challenge cuz I loves ya, you know. Not to hurt you any more than you already are. I just want you to be realistic, lovely one.

Your true and faithful friend,



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SL ~ what's wrong with calling the Harleys and asking them how to get your husband engaged?

You should tell them what you are telling us.

Lots of recovery work gets done in 1:1 with the Harleys. You are not both on the call together the entire time. There is no reason to wait for your husband right now, just call and ask for their help.


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I don't really know what to say to Steve H or Jennifer C, if I do call. I will be talking ONLY about my perspective, and I wonder how helpful that can be for recovery if the FWS isn't in on the session.


You may be surprised. When one person in a relationship changes or alters, a shift occurs in the dynamic which forces the relationship to change.

I don't know what methods you are currently using, but if you aren't willing to upset the balance then nothing WILL change.

Sort of like that saying, "If you do what you always did, you'll get what you always get" (or something along those lines).

Enabling, demands, begging, pleading...none of these will force someone to grow up. Consequences are what motivate people to grow up.

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*sniffles*

I am so proud!

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You may be surprised. When one person in a relationship changes or alters, a shift occurs in the dynamic which forces the relationship to change.

I don't know what methods you are currently using, but if you aren't willing to upset the balance then nothing WILL change.

Sort of like that saying, "If you do what you always did, you'll get what you always get" (or something along those lines).


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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In my mind, a marriage that is recovering as an entity would have both of you working on your personal issues -AND HAVE THE TWO OF YOU WORKING ON THE MARRIAGE. I mean, making the marriage a safe, loving haven of a place for both of you. I see you being patient, working on yourself, trying to understand what PWC is/is not doing...but I don't see him making the marriage a safe, haven of a place for you.


I agree with you, CJ...

But, all that SL can do is to work on HERSELF..and to share with him how SHE FEELS..

I don't have as negative of a view of PWC as some others..

It seems like to me that he is beginning to SHARE his feelings with SL....

What he is saying isn't POSITIVE but he is SHARING...

This seems to SCARE SL..and I truly UNDERSTAND that..

BUT such sharing of feelings..can lead to increased INTIMACY between them..it is the OPENNESS AND HONESTY that we strive for in our marriages..that builds closeness and intimacy unless we avoid it..he may be speaking HIS TRUTHS which should be RESPECTED...

Plus, I disagree and think that it is still EARLY in RECOVERY for them...

It was 6 months or more of WITHDRAWAL for my H and the Harleys say 3 to 6 months of WITHDRAWAL...

I, too, found it PAINFUL to HEAR my H's honesty about HIS UNHAPPINESS with ME..but I became THANKFUL that he was there telling me..and continues to tell me... rather than dealing with his issues by RUNNING OFF to be with another woman..I've learned to WITHSTAND what he has to say without being DEFENSIVE OR ANGRY OR HURT, knowing that he is speaking HIS TRUTH...


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Ah, Mimi, you have, yet again, spoken to something IN me. I agree with CJ, too. I also believe that counseling will have to be something that I do, as BR suggests, with the Harleys, inviting PWC to listen in and/or join in when he feels safe.

As I was reading this morning, I began thinking, "Well, what PWC can and will do is up to him entirely, I can only control what I do, so I guess this means I'm gonna have to take those first steps."

What this means is, *I* will have to call the Harleys, stop waiting for MY questions to just magically be answered. I must say them OUT LOUD to them (Harley's).

I feel loads better this morning. Last night, the 'family' watched a movie together, which ended very sadly, "The Bridge to Tarabithia". Some major tears were shed all around. DS stayed up late to watch; it was like a nice little adventure with my WHOLE family. I felt relaxed and natural.

This morning, PWC did something for me that he has not done in a very long time. I place my night clothes on the floor, next to the shower every morning. PWC USED to pick them up and place them in my hamper, every morning. He was on his way out, looked down, bent down, picked them up and placed them in my hamper.

I know it seems so small to you guys, but it meant something to me; it was him DOING something FOR me, consciously. Again, I know it seems small, but it's a change, and I see it, and I thanked him.

I'm also not looking at withdrawal as an excuse that PWC can USE to get out of participating, but it is so real, so true. It cannot be ignored as a contributing factor.

PWC did speak his truth, and I listened, after I stopped thinking of how to defend myself. HOW he said some things was quite hurtful, even though the guts of what he was getting at was true. It was delivered in a very dark, negative way.

My delivery sucked something awful, and I recognized it and knew it right away.

I'm not using only being able to control me as an excuse not to do what needs to be done, I will do it, it takes time and a great deal of effort to change old habits.


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I'm not using only being able to control me as an excuse not to do what needs to be done, I will do it, it takes time and a great deal of effort to change old habits.

What it takes is a decision.

I've been slightly out of the MB loop for a little while, so I'm a little confused.

SL, why the reluctance? What are you afraid of?

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The reluctance has come from a fear, however unfounded, that PWC really ins't in it to win it.

I have to start making these decisions and doing what I can.

I am afraid that I will find the same RELUCTANCE from PWC, the same waffling, when he is approached about the M. I have seen it so many times, that I was still living in OLD HABIT land, where I fear doing things that may cause him to go further into his cocoon, and/or reach out to another person, because the alternative of reviewing HIMSELF is too much for him to do.

I'm not saying it's rational, just what the MO has been in the past. MY old habits in regards to RECOVERY, stem from the false recoveries that we have had. My expectation is that he will run away. Now, the reality is, he may, but why should that stop me from getting help? If I allow his inactivity, in the counseling realm, to decide FOR ME what I am going to do, I could be waiting a long time.

I just got paid, and see a few extra duckets that I could put toward a session. I really am one of those peops living paycheck to paycheck right now, so I haven't had any assets to put toward the Harleys. I'm going to do it this time. I need it.

What words should I use to invite PWC to participate? I don't want to sound 'bossy', and I want to convey that this is good for US.


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Own your feelings as you talk with him about WHY you want to talk with the Harleys and why it would help you to have him also participate.

In other words "I'm worried that my feelings could derail our recovery - so I'd like to work with the Harleys to deal with those feelings - I know you want my healing; would you consider talking with them with me?".


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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SL:

Just want to let you know that I had been travelling almost parellel path as you did: a very long withdrawal with EN not met and an entitled WH at home thinking he was sacrificing his happiness for me and the kids...

But things turned around for us little by little. With NC and with my loving actions. Last night H came back late at night ( he forwarded me the invitation for a group party to see off the departure of a team member at work) and I was almost asleep, but still awake. I didn't make any noice so he thought I was asleep. He climbed into bed and immediately hugged me from my back and snuggled tightly with me with his hands on my tummy (he knows that's my favorite position to sleep)...There was no SF or anything, but it was so nice and sweet and he became my sweet husband again last night...

You know, SL, people recover their M in different ways. Each couple is different, their history, their previous attachement, their M state pre A and even the dept of emotional involvement in A all play some roles in determining the length of the withdrawal and of course BS's actions during early recovery play a big role in it also.
Since each couple is different and their course of actions need to be different too.

My feelings of your sitch, saying from my experience of my own case, is that you are on the right track and you are still early in your recovery and your continued patience will affect your H positively and he will turn around in a couple of months. Just continue to be loving, but not clingy (which I didn't do well in early recover that affected our recovery very negatively), make time for each other, going to places that build good memories, talk often about kids, past, future plans, reveal inner self to him when he is receptive, trying to be his best friends again...In time he will loosen up little by little and he will start to meet some of your ENs and you will feel better and get recharged from the ENs he gives you and you continue to build intimacy with the momentum...There will be back slides and actually we slided back numerous times...but we managed to climb back on and rebuild from the lows...you will find each lows becomes a little higher than the last lows and eventually we are at the place that we are more confident that we will be able to go through this together...

We still have a lot of issues and we still haven't talked much about the A ( I know most of the stuff already very early on)...But the need to know is decreasing when we feel loving and being loved and I believe eventually when we feel so safe in each other's hearts, he will open up by himself if he sees the needs from me...

Just speaking from my own experience, SL, I do feel that you are on the right track and what your H behaves is normal at this stage since the A was a deep emotional entanglement and he needs time to get unentangled in his mind...and this needs time and a lot of love and patience from you...

I had my stuggles, lots of them and I didn't have much support from anybody...Nobody knows about his A excpet his family...I still struggle on a lot of issues...But it does get better...I don't feel a lot of sharp pain now and I'm trying to do more personal recovery...

Best of luck and there is light at the end of the tunnel..

LA

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This morning, PWC did something for me that he has not done in a very long time. I place my night clothes on the floor, next to the shower every morning. PWC USED to pick them up and place them in my hamper, every morning. He was on his way out, looked down, bent down, picked them up and placed them in my hamper.

I know it seems so small to you guys, but it meant something to me; it was him DOING something FOR me, consciously. Again, I know it seems small, but it's a change, and I see it, and I thanked him.


TO ME, THIS IS MAJOR..cause this is EXACTLY how I've learned that my H shows his love for me..prior to the A..prior to R..I took this EVIDENCE of his LOVE for me for granted..my RECOGNITION and APPRECIATION of these LITTLE THINGS which SUMMED UP to big things was a MAJOR PART of MY PLAN A as suggested by STEVE..and it was MAJOR to my H that I GOT THIS..that he was doing these things for me OUT OF LOVE AND CARE for me..SUCH NURTURING OF ME..makes him FEEL GOOD..he likes being able to TAKE CARE OF ME...I suspect that is so for your H, SL...My H said I gave him the sense in the past that I DIDN'T NEED HIM..which robbed him of being A MAN TO HIS WOMAN..Dang it, he had to LEAVE ME for me to recognize how much I do NEED HIM..yes, to fix my coffee each morning and yes, to pick my clothes up off the bathroom floor..yes, my H does that, too, EVERY MORNING..and I kiss him goodbye and say THANK YOU... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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PWC did speak his truth, and I listened, after I stopped thinking of how to defend myself. HOW he said some things was quite hurtful, even though the guts of what he was getting at was true. It was delivered in a very dark, negative way.


When you get a chance, do read that thread when I talk about the CONFLICT I was having with my H. My issue, like yours, was with his DELIVERY. I had to get past that in order to listen to what he was saying. FOLKS like LA and PEP helped me with speaking to him about HIS DELIVERY and then to stop PREJUDGING AND DISRESPECTING HIM BY MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT HE IS SAYING AND HOW HE IS FEELING...I think you are doing that, SL...It's time to REALLY LISTEN. Let him know, in speaking your truth, that you can't HEAR if he speaks in that DARK WAY..BUT, you want to HEAR HIM..and you CAN HEAR HIM..like FROZ says, it's a DECISION...

THIS WAS SUCH A MAJOR TURNING POINT IN MY MARRIAGE..we are so very much closer because I can handle hearing my H's UNHAPPINESS with me.. EMBRACING RATHER THAN FEARING CONFLICT.. and he is willing to share it with me without either of us experiencing this as AN ARGUMENT....or BEATING EACH OTHER UP with WORDS...


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Loving Along's experience and viewpoint are like mine..as you already know...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by mimi_here; 08/15/07 09:37 AM.

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LA, thank you for sharing your experience. It is most welcome and most appreciated. I am SEEING that he is doing things. I have been so focused on the lack of physical affections, that I wasn't seeing all of the other affections. This morning, I definitely did.

Every morning for the past three months, I would see him picking up his clothes and leaving mine behind. This morning, he picked his up, stopped, looked down, reached down AGAIN, picked mine up and placed them in my hamper. For me, this was MAJOR, for me. It seems so insignificant, from the outside, but it made a large deposit. Can ya tell?

When I kissed him goodbye this morning, he looked me in the eye and came back in for another kiss, putting his hand on my back; that was so lovely. I told him that I hoped he had a great day!

I really do have a lot of work to do, changing to do, permanently. I hear you guys; it may take me some time, but I hear it. I'm listening. I'm learning.

Respect and appreciation was so lacking in our R pre A. I did give it, he did deserve it, then I took it away. So blind. I could 'IF ONLY' until the cows come home, but it did take his A's and the last two years to really begin to offer me an awakening. Part of my fear may have been this; now that I'm here and see the light, PWC may just be so fed up, that he can't take any mistakes from me. I know, it's a bit over the top, but that was my fear.

Well, I messed up, and he's still here.


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Hi mimi:

Yes, I think we have very similar view points in this.
I'm following your advice to SL a lot here in her thread.
So you are not only helping her, you are helping others like me also here...So here is a big thank you from me.

Just a side note, I saved your post to ChaCha about her wanting to know the details about A and your view point there rings true to me also...

I feel like sometimes when wanting to know the details are for validating our own feelings, it's better to leave it alone for a while and check back later...And when things are going great, when intimacy and bonding are so tight, the desire to know the past A details seem to deminishing...
I found that I haven't had the strong desire to question my H for a while because he has been making me feel safe and I don't need validation that much, also because I try to grow personally and tell myself that whatever he did and whatever he felt towards OW was the old WH and feelings change and it's not going to help me if he tells me how he felt during those dark period...Also I start to feel that his actions at that time actually had nothing to do with who I was and who I am now, this helps me to move on and focus more on the present, instead of the past...

And I feel that the time will come and I will know it when I feel my H and I become such best friends that he would want to reveal his thinking process to me by himself...Before that time, I don't feel pressing him to answer questions will do us any good at this time...

But basic facts are a different thing. We do need them. I already have all the basic facts, just those details I don't know sometimes come back to me to haunt me and I'm trying to read your post and feel that I agree with you on that also and your words truly helped me a lot...Thanks again.

Sorry SL, didn't mean to TJ here. Hopefully this info is helpful to you also...

LA

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