Hi SL. No advice. Just support and cyber hugs.

I only knew one of my grandparents; my Mother's Father and he died in 1968 at the age of 75.

But I remember fishing with him, raking and burning leaves in South Minneapolis, how he smelled like Copenhagen tobacco, his thick Swedish accent, his always brown and grey flannel shirts, trips to the grocery store, his screened porch and oak trees, his fiddle playing, the mysterious attic, summer sausage sandwiches on Swedish rye, and the “goody bag” of treats he gave me every time I went back home. I was seven when he died.

Grandfathers are good!

I had one grandmother, and she was pretty aloof, sometimes downright mean, so no fuzzy memories there. Some funny moments, but no great memories. Meh, I guess I don't know what I'm missing, so that's good.

SL-
So what did your H say about Sat? I think that that is WONDERFUL!
Just a word of advice, when you do go out, as much as it may pain you, put on a happy, contented front... I made the mistake when my H and I were in the stage that you are in to use alone time as a time to "talk". He just wanted to relax, and try to have fun. I had an agenda... I sometimes wonder if I DID NOT always have an agenda, if he would have tried more..., but I never will know.

Another thing, your H sounds A LOT like my WH did before he left... withdrawn, distant, sometimes not... and my WH said that what would have pulled him out of it would have been to be the 'same old fun' person I once was... (in MANY ways...) And I have to agree... there was a time that before he left, I was fuming, just fuming, under the surface. About EVERYTHING... I threw the words "let's just D if this is how it is going to be!" at him as a threat, to straighten up his act. I wish I had known then what I know now, that once those words are spoken, it is HARD to take them back.

What I am going to say again, is that he CHOOSE to come home to you and your son, he CHOOSE this. We know that you are hurting, he knows that you are hurting. But now is the time to kind of throw your hurt aside, and kind of act normal, so he will relax. He is probably petrified that you will want to TALK. He will talk to you when HE is ready. So for now, comfort yourself that he is with you.

Also, did you ever try to make the moves on him... do ANYTHING to him that may make him WANT to have SF with you? Don't act timid, just want it... and it may surprise, and inspire him!

As always, I wish you well! :-)

Hey Sadmo,

I planned on just having some fun. I actually rarely talk to PWC about our R stuff. I think I've let it go so long that I now have a need to express things right now. I think it's fine; it's really about me, anyway.

I have restarted my campaign for OPERATION RECOVERY. Yesterday, PWC had TaeKwanDo after work, so I took my dad out with me and my son for dinner. Got home and my brother stopped by. We were all still hangin out when PWC came home. It seemed like old times. Anyway, point is, I just did what I normally would do.

I'm going to do what I will/can in terms of giving. I'm going to plan out some time for ourselves, as much as I can, and he can jump in or not, really his call.

As for SF, he knows I want them. He's aware. I'll do what I can, but I'm not going to force myself on him. I'm going to get a bit more comfortable in my skin, and relax a bit more. The last time that I dressed up for him, he was so blah about it. His body didn't even react very quickly; it was a bit of a turn off. I recognize the importance, but, again, I'm not him. I can't make him do what I want, when I want. I can make myself FULLY available, open, warm, affectionate, with the come hither eyes, but that's as far as I'm going to go right now. That last go really deflated my sails.

It took me all of this time to figure it out, too. I was really hurt by his lack of enthusiasm, the darkness in his eyes, the lack of kissing, carressing, fever, etc. I know some of this is my issue, but that does not mean that I WON'T dress up. I think we need to just start SF on the regular. I don't know what he thinks, yet. No word from him. I'm still waiting on a response to some things that I said to him regarding SF, among other things.

I'm not all that focused on him right now. I'm trying to just find my center, and BE happy. I am finally understanding what Mimi and BR have been talking about. I am taking my stuff and really working on it. One is my fear of rejection, which in turn, has kept me from seducing PWC. I am doing my best. SF was NEVER a problem before, but that was during the height of his fog and ACTUAL rejection, when SF was HOT. Now, it's different, REAL LIFE is our world, not the world of infidelity and broken hearts. It's just different. PWC is very different.

He was so relaxed last night, but tired after TKD, so after my family left, we just relaxed. I read a bit, and watched some tube with him. He fell asleep quick! It used to bother me, that he just retired to the bedroom after DS went to bed. Maybe the TV is his avoidance mechanism. He probably does think he's going to be bombarded with questions. If only he realized I wanted some lovin's. I've told him, but I don't think he 'gets' it yet. I'm not going to think on it too much.

I'm just going to get stronger and more healthy, and keep doing all that I can. I realized that these past few months, I had sunken into a sorrowful place over HIM. That's just not healthy. He has to pick himself up. I can't.

Despite our situation, I had a good day yesterday, GREAT day in fact, even with these horrific allergies! I'm finding my way back, and it feels good.

Yep.

Fortunatly or unfortunately you have grown. There may be a gap. You kinda know the roadmap or the blueprint.

To this day I can't understand why a FWS wouldn't come on this board and buy into this philosophy.

It is non punitive and focus' on the future.

But alas you are here and you have the advice of others to help you and you know your part.

It may take him a while to catch up, or he may never catch up. But you do have to give them time.

I think all the advice about the SF is a little off. It isn't all on you. Stop parading around, dressing up etc. Give him time.

Hey Frog,

So good to hear from you. Yup, I hear you on the SF stuff. I'm open to it, he knows. I can't MAKE him want anything, or want to give. It's up to him.

I want my son to have a solid family, and I am going to do all that I can to regain that. I am still learning how to be completely honest, myself. I hold back quite a bit. I'm trying to learn WHAT I need to say to him, and what is solely my issue to deal with.

It's a lot to learn, so I'm just going to go as I go.

My GF had a good point (and is online with you on this one). She told me that I should continue to kiss and hug and such, but if he flinches or doens't embrace back, to ask if he's uncomfortable with this, and if so, why. She said that he's got some givin to do. I don't disagree, but I can't make him. I think she has a valid point. I'm learning not to feel rejected by him. It really is his loss, if SF are something he likes. It sure used to be.

I know that any marriage cannot survive HAPPILY under these current conditions, but it's early yet, in the grand scheme of things, and I don't feel like this is a waste of my time. It's actually quite a learning experience for me, in patience and in recovery. I want a marriage with this person. I can't make that happen alone, I know. I never-in-a-million-years believed that we wouldn't have SF if *I* was all in.

I now understand why people have said over and over again that the BS who comes to MB is usually far ahead when the WS comes back and they begin recovery. We're just ready for the work, and understand that it is work that most good marriages do.

I'm glad I have you guys.

I'm also using my instincts again in a lot of this. Like I've said in the past, dressing up is great, but it doessn't seem to be the way to his, um, well, yknow, HEART right now.

DRESS UP..for YOU...

Ask for SF for YOU...because YOU WANT and NEED it..

I don't get it where SF is all about THE MAN... being GORGEOUS and GLAMOUROUS is necessary for our own FEMININITY...

Mimi..GODDESS/DIVA... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I guess you have to resort to MECHANICAL ASSISTANCE...

What's BUGS' NICKNAME for it???

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I agree though with MAINLY TALKING to HIM about YOUR NEEDS...

Hi Mimi.

Oh, I do dress for me, in all ways, to feel more feminine. I'm trying at least. My job is a bit messy, so 'dressing up' for that can be disastrous. It really is more of a jeans sort of place, and high heels don't work there either. The fact that I wear open toed shoes in a lab is a no-no, but I still do. I have grown to like shopping. I used to hate it. I also have a shoe fettish. I don't buy everyone that I like, but I do like some sexy shoes. I sometimes wish I had a job that lent itself to dressing up.

As for dressing at night for me. I wear teddies and such to bed now. Any now is much more than I did before. I actually started doing that while in Plan B. I liked it, for ME. I do sometimes still wear a tank top and undies to bed, but that, to me, is still sexy (they show off my ASSETS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). At least, I feel girly in it, considering I used to wear oversized T-shirts.

Bugsy call it a BOB, I believe, but I think someone else here coined that one. I'm not sure who.

Oh, I had a pretty bad dream about SF with PWC last night. I dreamt that I was trying to seduce him, and he refused saying "you stink!" Oy, can we say 'fear of rejection'. Whoa! Well, like I said, I can ask, but won't necessarily recieve.

If he says no, I really would like to know why, even if it is something to do with me, how I look, how I SMELL, dress whatever. If it's not me, then that answers all the questions that I can do anything about.

I still find it ironic that one of PWC 'issues' with our R (before the infidelity) was that we weren't having enough sex. Now I think we're not having enough sex. Weird.

WOW, you talkin' 'bout BOB too!

I'm going to be SOOOO happy to see BOBBY Boy!!!!

Another WHOOO HOOOOO for moving home!!!!

:whispering: I just had to share that, thanks!

:yelling: HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Didn't BOB stand for battery operated something or other. What did the last B stand for again?

The memory, she fails me so often these days <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

"boyfriend"

SL you don't have to get dressed up or throw yourself at him. Be you.

I don't advocate playing games so this isn't meant to be a game. Stop making the gestures to him for a while.

Who knows maybe he wants to be the aggressor. I don't know but trying the same thing isn't working.

I think the 2x4's we get here and the people calling bs when the see it helps. It snaps us into the reality of who and what we are.

It was hard for me realizing my flaws, I know most here think I am perfect, but I am not.

What is hard sometimes is the changes we make aren't always to the FWS liking and that is probably hard and confusing.

I am positive my FWW doesn't like some of my changes but they are good healthy changes. I think she really hates me not enabling her anymore.

Evidencing your DESIRE for your H is not PLAYING GAMES...

Expressing your need for LOVEMAKING is speaking your TRUTH...

I'm sorry. I'm not understanding where you are coming from,FROG...

What exactly is "BEING YOU"?

Couldn't BEING SL be equivalent to DESIRING HER HUSBAND and therefore letting him know that...

My question to you, SL:

If HE rejects you, does that mean to you that you ARE NOT DESIRABLE????

I'm advocating BEING FREE to express your FEMININITY, WOMANHOOD and DESIRES in your OWN WAY..whether it means dressing up or not...but don't HOLD BACK in response to HIM..don't let him be the determinant of how you EXPRESS YOUR WOMANHOOD and NEEDS...

Frog, are you saying that something is WRONG with DRESSING UP FOR YOUR HUSBAND???? If he doesn't respond to THIS, it's HIS PROBLEM..not SL's....

What's SL supposed to do about SEX these days???? IMO, he needs to SERVICE HER...or she gets our permission to resort to the "BOB"...You haven't declared CELIBACY have you???

Mimi,
I think in many ways, Frog is saying the same thing as you. JUST BE ME.

I certainly have not taken a vow of celibacy, but I can't speak for our perfect Frog.

I don't WANT to resort to the BOB. I would rather have my husband. I DO take care of myself, without mechanical means, but it's not the same. I honestly, truly, miss sex. I honestly, truly, miss cuddling(that involves him nuzzling with me too, not just me nuzzlin with him).

I feel very free to express my womanhood and I have taken to 'growing up' a bit and exploring that part of myself. It's not new to me to care for myself, but it is new to me to be grown and goddesslike. I'm likin it bunches. Now, I need to find my voice. I've started, but I need to hone that skill more and more. Speaking my truth, without making it about PWC at all. Really exploring the question, "What DO I like?"

I like dressing up for him, and will again, but not until I HEAR something from him over his SEEMING lack of interest. Maybe he is interested and is afraid. I won't know until he opens up a bit, exposes that underbelly. It's scary, I know.

In the past, if he rejected me, it was because I was undersirable, certainly, that's where my self worth was, a la toilette.

NOw, I don't believe it to be true. I am desirable. I'm sure of it. I may not be desirable to HIM right now, because he may be blocked by something, but that does not mean that I am not DESIRABLE. I'm smart, funny, open, pretty, sexy, alluring, and so many other things. I know this.

He may want sex, but because it's been so long, he fears broaching the subject, even though I've already broached it. He may fear answering. HE may feel embarrased. I dunno.

I'm finding myself along the way, and I AM a different person, more adult, than before. I'm learning to express that with confidence.

SL-
Maybe he does not like the teddies... maybe he sees it as you "trying" too much. It is possible.

I think that maybe you should go to just the undies and tank tops, forget the teddies for now, and MAKE YOUR MOVE.
(Try the ONE THING that most guys can't resist!) Move your hands over him, gently, and just go with it. It might make him excited to see you so excited...

And, dare I suggest this, if he blows you off, pull out your BOB, and take care of yourself, with him in the room. One of my friends said that she did that to create interest with her H, and he liked it...

Just a thought...

Ok. I gotcha...



Ok..You got me on this one..How can it be new to you to BE GROWN??? You already ARE A GODDESS..a loving, lovely WOMAN...



Come on..I'm hearing some OLD TAPES...YOU KNOW WHAT YOU LIKE!!



WHAT???? Remember BEING THE BEST WOMAN, MOTHER, SL that YOU CAN BE regardless of HIS REACTION..straight out of the PLAN A HANDBOOK!! It's your JOB TO DRESS UP FOR YOUR HUSBAND..PERIOD..end of story...but do this in a way that it is PLEASING to YOU..but DON'T NEGLECT YOUR JOB....



EXACTLY...WONDERFUL..Don't just say it..LIVE IT!!!



Yep, WHO KNOWS....

Your assignment: ASK HIM!!! "Don't you want to....WHATEVER WORD you wanna use?" Make it into a joke. Buy a bottle of champagne to loosen yourselves up...



THIS IS BLOWING MY MIND...WORDS are telling...how can you consider yourself NOT AN ADULT???

Would you please tell my 21 year old son that he is not an adult...I worry that he can buy alcohol now... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

SADMO..HUSH, you can't talk this way around CHILDREN... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kinda, just kidding...

SL: more good stuff on my thread this morning from SB and BR, particularly about the stuff that floored you recently.

BTW (Rin!!!), it was NOT me that came up with BOB, if that's what you were implying! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think it was Bugs. I remember the conversation, but I don't even remember whose thread it was on. Not mine, though...and I'm not being coy, I just want to make sure that credit goes where credit is due.

Mimi,
I felt stunted in my relationship with PWC for quite a long time. I can't really explain it well here, but I did. I felt trapped in my twenty somethings, trying to be what I am not, hence, not feeling very adult, grown up.

When he left, I began looking at how 'childish' I felt I could be, with expectations that life SHOULD be easy, and why wasn't it. I'm taking responsiblity for myself now. PWC would tell me that he wanted to STILL be able to do this and that (this was after our son was born); the kind of stuff that costs lotsa money and takes him away often. It's really hard to explain, but think back to before you had kids and what your relationship with you FWH was. He wanted to try to maintain THAT lifestyle

THAT lifestyle made me feel stunted. I felt like we were growing apart instead of together. I guess I was sorta right on that.

Anyway, that's what I mean by not feeling adult. Maybe it also has to do with losing my mother during my 20's. I don't know. I know that I dont' feel the same now, as I did then, about me. I like myself a whole lot more.



Now onto the nitty gritty...

The verdict is in.

PWC is not attracted to me.

PWC says we have no chemistry.

PWC says he doesn't like me.

Yes, I asked him to be more specific, but he couldn't or was afraid to hurt me. Um, it really hurt anyway, so I don't understand not letting it all hang out.

My initial reaction was very calm. I asked if he could elaborate. He said it's hard to. He doesn't do well when confronted.

About the attraction to me. I know it's not about me, EXCEPT for my weight. In the past two years of crap, I have gained 20 pounds on my once svelt frame--all around my waist and hips, very tough stuff to get rid of. I have been thinking of trying Jenny Craig, with exercise. I don't think exercise alone is going to do it these days.

Other than that, there is not much I can do. Maybe the changes I have made are negatives for him. Again, he wouldn't elaborate.

As for dressing up for me. I'll do what I'm comfortable with, but it may even turn PWC off MORE. I'm not into grossing men out these days, even if it's not about me.

I asked again if he believed that we needed 'outside' help and he said he didn't know. I'm at a loss there.

So, thwack away, lemme have it. I feel pretty hopeless in this situation. I don't think we can prevail without him faking it until he makes it. It's not natural and he refuses to go against what is natural right now. With that nifty little avoidance issue, he skirts many things, and will be the demise of our marriage. About that last statment, thwach away, I know this is what he is thinking, and I know this is what he is doing.

I will continue using MB principles in my life, as they are sound and make sense. I just don't live with someone who buys into it at all. He will not spend time with me if his HEART isn't in it. He will not touch me if he is NOT attracted to me. He will not do anything that pains him. Believe me, it is work trying to change my way of thinking, to understand marriage as what it is instead of what my FANTASY of marriage is.

So, I cried quite a bit after that talk, couldn't sleep until about midnight, but I did sleep. I had hoped that I wouldnt' feel sad by the things that he said, that I could let it all be his. I feel better today, and am quite sure that I will feel better by this evening, and even better tomorrow. It's out of my control.