SL,

Ok, first let's get it out of the way that yes, it was ME that started the B.O.B conversation on my thread! LOL, but important information!! (you all are still talking about it aren't you??) he he! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Second, I'd like to just point out one thing Mimi refered to in her post. Plan A. Remember that attitude again. Doing & being the best ___(fill in the blank), that you can despite his response or lack of it.

The last thing, in that regard as well, think back to when you "did" have that chemistry he says is lacking. What did you do then? How did you do it? What worked? You are once again wooing your boyfriend. See if that doesn't spark some thoughts and ideas. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Remember the GODDESS that you are!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Funny, Bugs, I have been trying the Plan A. I have been doing the things that once attracted him to me. It's hard to explain here, but those things seem to have detracted him MORE instead of less.

I really can't get any answers from him, not clear, no guidance. I will continue doing as Mimi and you and others have said. I'm going to continue to be the best ME I can. Maybe, just maybe, it really is ME that he doesnt' want. Maybe the more ME I am, the less attracted he is. I really don't know. I have really been much more like me as these months have gone on.

I think part of the reason for me crying is my FRUSTRATION. I just needed to let it go.

I hear you, and I will do my best.

What did PWC like about me when we started dating....

Hmmmm, well, my body was a big one for him. We met when I was 19, and just out of the military, so maintaining that physique is nearly impossible. What else. Probably my confidence. I had oodles of self worth, and have begun regaining that. I took a huge roundhouse kick to my self- ANYTHING when the initial affair hit. I consider that to be the worst of it all. I know, he's had more than one affair, but the first cut was the deepest.

Hmmm, what else did he like. I was always happy, laughing, full of life, energetic. I will admit that melancholy has become a part of who I am now. I FEEL things much more deeply, so I tend to be more SOFT. I had a strong sense of independence, took responsibility for myself, worked hard, put myself through school, etc. I think that was attractive to him, at the time. I actually have to fight against that tendency right now. I think I did what I liked and he liked that about me. I still do what I like, but do feel stunted by the lack of money. I've been a bit lazy about finding FREE things to do. My bad, I know. I'm a work in progress.

I have to say that I agree with Plan A, but it can be Plan doormat in recovery. I will be the best me that I know I am. I will work on my physique, at least try to shed some pounds. I've wanted to do that for some time now. THAT is not about him, that is about me. I want to be SMALLER again, feel stronger. Any suggestions that other people have tried are fine here. I think simply cutting the calories will help in a big way.

There's really only so much I have a willingness to do. Sorry folks, but that's true. I'm a bit angry that he keeps coming back and keeps doing the same thing over and over again. Last time, the excuse was "I can't love you, I can't like you." It sounds so very familiar, and it makes me feel angry. I have to let that go, after the anger subsides.

Keep em coming. I have to tell you guys, this is very frustrating.

Can this Marriage Be Saved? Weight issues

From MSN this morning. Strange. I mean, I'm not 80lbs overweight, but I could see how PWC may have wanted my weight to remain steady, as a part of a 'marital contract'. I, also, have only ONCE been upset about his weight (he's always been heavier--no biggie to me, cause he was charming and funny and smart, but that's me).

Bull hockey. You’re letting PWC off the hook way too easy. I know I’LL probably get the 2x4s for saying all of this but I think it’s time for PWC to poop or get off the pot. I’ve watched you for months now working so hard on yourself AND your marriage with almost no response or half-a$$ed responses from PWC. Your comment about PWC’s “nifty little avoidance issue” says it all.

With that said, you know that you cannot control PWC’s reactions or feelings, only yours. You have done the work. PWC has not. You have grown. PWC has not.

I know you’re not “very religious” as you describe it, but SL, there is an order that God meant for marriage. The Bible tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Period. There are no caveats. There are no escape clauses (i.e., I’m not attracted to her, there is no chemistry, I don’t like her.) other than adultery. What does that mean? How much did Christ love the church? Enough to sacrifice his life. That’s a hard missive for any husband. But the key… is to try.

PWC did not deserve it, yet you gave him the gift of mercy by allowing him to return home. It may be time to give yourself a time-frame for PWC to get his act together in this marriage. Put the ball in HIS court.

There’s a lot of talk about boundaries on MB. How about setting one for yourself? You will accept nothing less than a loving marriage.

There’s a lot of talk about boundaries on MB. How about setting one for yourself? You will accept nothing less than a loving marriage.

I think I struggle with this regularly. I am not able to accept a loveless marriage. I am not able to accept "I don't feel like it" as a valid excuse. I'm not okay with continually giving to someone who just won't give back.

One thing that I find very disheartening was his response to me saying that I didn't feel he was doing anything for us. His response was that he was 'following the rules' of contacting me to let me know his whereabouts. He's not doing it for our marriage, or because he knows it helps me to feel more comfortable and protected, but because he HAS to, according to my doctrine. Now, I would happily follow a new doctrine, if he would start dictating one.

PM, I have actually thought of calling on you these past few days. I had a very strong urge yesterday. I don't know why. Maybe because you say you recovered without MB, even though you had wished that it coulda been the MB way.

I am frustrated. I am angry. Luckily, my spirit won't let me stay down. I am smiling and laughing and feeling happy inside again.

As for a time limit, hmmm, do you mean keeping one for myself or actually saying there is a time limit on this. Giving an ultimatum does go against MB principles. I'm the only 'practicing' MB in my home.

I honestly don't feel like this is going to work out.

I'm so sad for my son right now, but I can only do my part.

Oh, and I do believe in God; i don't prescribe to any one religion, but I have faith. I have read the bible on and off throughout my life, but I sometimes think of it just as a book. I dunno, I have some spiritual growth to do.

When I feel lost, I am usually led to what can help me the most, so i do feel like I am 'watched' over.

AS an up for today, my GF may be interested in Weight Watchers, so that we can do it together, as support. I am 5'5" tall with a 160lb frame. I would like to lose 20lbs. It's gonna have to involve calorie cuts and a workable exercise regimen.

BTW, still looking for more people to 'weigh in' (great pun for this occassion) on the current conversation with PWC.

I just don't have much hope right now, not for a marriage filled with love and respect.

SL,

A lot since I last left. So first this struck me.

This statement is vague and a little unfair on your part. You want specifics from him you should give them back. You are not.... To your own admission he is picking up his socks and being a good dad to DS.

On the weight issue. I am calling BS. Not betrayed spouse either. I have started calling my wife on her BS so what the heck. LOL.

Fine he is not as attracted to you as he was before. He needs to be more specific too. I mean if he expects you to weight 99 lbs and fit into a size 1 then he will be attracted he is a horses petutie. This could be him taking an easy way out.

Don't get me wrong I think physical attraction is important but he needs to be realistic too.

Now you said he could stand to lose a few LBS. If so why are you getting your friend to join you? Have him join you!!!!!! Every nite put the kiddo in a stroller and walk a mile or 2 or 3 that is great time together and it is excersise.

Change both of your diets. I have read some of your recipe's and they are a litte fattening. LOL.

Mimi to your points. I was not saying to play a game nor was I saying SL should start playing a game. I was saying just play hard to get for a while. Try something different. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Wear a damn burkha for a while and never let him see you in anything less for a while. Maybe then the sight of a piece of skin will be exciting for him.

Chemistry - Calling BS again. You have a relationship, a long term sustainable relationship. I think he is equating chemistry to the feeling he had with OW. That wasn't chemistry that was excitment etc. That is toxic chemistyr if you ask me.

He doesn't like you - That is a distinct and real possibility. I know there are things about me she doesn't like. I refuse to change those though. When I say I call my wife on her BS what I mean is in the past I would enable her. Now I don't. It bothers the heck out of her. What should I do start enabling her again.

The other day she brought up her steps, I said I don't want to talk about it because, IMVHO she should be farther along. She started making excuses. I called BS and said, you just don't want to do them. You like the social aspect of AA but not the work. She got mad but that is the truth. She hates now that I speak the truth.(oh and for anyone that wants to give me a 2x4 for saying that about her AA realize my wifes sponsor fired her for not doing the steps)

The other thing I think is that if a BS tries to hard or plan A's for too long they become a doormat.

If the changes you made are healthy changes then he has to decide to catch up. That will be the only solution.

SL YOu have done a great job. Just be you. If I am rambling or of course or just giving bad advice just disregard everthing. LOL

I have nothing to offer you on this. Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you.

As far as the weight loss is concerned, I'm right there with ya. I'm 5'3" and 140. I'd LOVE to lose another 10 pounds. I was 129 at the end of last summer mainly due to stress, but have regained 10 as my world slowly righted itself.

I was making an effort at the time too. Running with DDs, a workout tape with an exercise ball, and counting calories. Seriously, I had no idea how many calories I was going through until I wrote it down. It really gave me some perspective.

Accountability helps, too. My sister and I would send each other our daily log that we kept on Excel. If I didn't want to have to admit to her that I ate something, I didn't eat it.

Good luck, SL, you deserve a good life.

Fox

I think I've heard it said that setting a boundry for YOURSELF is NOT giving an ultimatum. I think in your case I would make it clear what your boundry is-- you are not willing to accept anything less than a loving marriage. You had it once. You don't have it now. You are not willing to do the work alone any longer.

You are giving YOURSELF a timeline of say, three months, for things to change before you give up the ghost that your marriage has become. If he chooses to jump in and participate in a loving marriage, wonderful. If he doesn't then you're okay with that too because you've respected yourself and your personal boundry. You'll be okay either way.

It IS sad for your son. The example PWC is setting is sad for your son. He is not learning what he should be learning from this whole thing. You have shown him love and forgiveness. He is NOT seeing what it takes to make a marriage work -- constant, daily, work on the part of BOTH husband and wife -- through thick and thin -- consciously choosing to love each other daily. His father is not showing him how to be a righteous husband.

Since SOMEBODY brought up God (I'm not going to say WHO, princessmeggy), I often wonder if he is not guiding me in a different direction than MB. Not that I don't agree with a MB marriage. I certainly am sold on complete Openness/honesty, giving to my spouses needs, and being the best me, physically, emotionally, spiritually and otherwise.

I cannot keep looking past what is presented to me time and again. "I can't love you, I don't like you" and now a new addition "I am not attracted to you". These are very discouraging statments. I am also frustrated that he keeps coming back. I just don't get it. WHY? We could have had this all over, settled things financially, and gone out separate ways. I mean, that is how we are living. We don't share finances, everything is still separate, we reside in the same home, but there's no love there. We are like roomates, and it is no doing of mine.

I'm finally just letting him own his stuff, and HE is the one who is completely jacked up. What is he doing here? What is the point? I can think of one, to have his house and figure out how to divorce and keep it. I know how cruel and unfair that statment is, but it FEELS true. How do you counteract this thinking? I feel positive about our M surviving one day, probably due to some HEAVY bolstering here, then I go home to reality, and HEAVY dose there.

The facts don't match the experiences I read about here. My FWH is not joining in, no matter what pretty face I put on or smiling joy I present, or how much I detach or how much I try to involve him. HE's f'd up, there are now two ways about it. This is the GASLIGHT thing I've been talking about. The avoidance of the issue, by simply saying "I can't", and then I come here and am told to keep going, keep doing, keep giving.

My head spins sometimes at the prospect of continuing to do this without ANYTHING in return. I feel it goes against ME, my principles of fair play. I understand that the BS may have to shoulder some responsiblity INITIALLY during recovery, but not forever. You can't squeeze water from a stone.

I wish I could convey to you guys how much I have done and how much better I feel, and how much I try. I just can't keep doing the same thing, expecting a different outcome. Isn't that the definition of insanity?

My kid deserves better from me, I know. I can continue, but at what sacrifice of self? What am I teaching my son? What am I teaching PWC? That he can be shiftless and I'll just keep giving? Is that love?

I feel like I'm at a crossroads, here. I mean, if I had to, I could live without sex, but without respect, love, compassion...gee I don't think so.

oh...and do it for YOU. Because it makes YOU feel better and YOU find yourself more attractive, healthier, etc.

My confidence level SOARED when I felt I looked my best. Even with the crapola WH was dishing out.

I'm getting back on track now, too. Let me know if you want to trade calorie spreadsheets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Fox

Could he be testing you? To see if you'll go (ie, divorce) if things aren't the way you like them? Or if it doesn't go as quickly as you'd like? My BH does that to me, or he'll say something just to get me to be quiet. He'll even say sometimes, "What can I say to you that will get you to leave me alone?"

Your WH sounds foggy still, I think that it may just take time, frustrating as it is...

BTW, Frog, his response led me to apologize for being vague and then I was more specific, stating that he gave no affection, or SEEMED to have me in his thought process, or try to help me heal from his infidelities. He denied that, and said that he did. He did not give ways in which he thought of me, so I guess just the fact that he thought of me, in whatever way, is his truth.

Yes, he picks up after himself and cleans up where HE makes a mess and bathes his son and puts him to bed sometimes. It's nice to not have to clean up after him. I do all the other cleaning daily, take care of the dogs most of the time. I'm not faulting him for what I CHOOSE to do. I'm faulting him for not giving directly to me my most important needs. I'm faulting him for not communicating HIS needs. I have been honest with him about what I need. He is unwilling.

Even in his OPENNESS, he calls when he is about 10-15 minutes away from home, even when he's running late, he doens't call, he just waits until he is 10-15 minutes out from home. He doesn't 'get' the damage, he doesn't understand the trauma, nor do I expect him to . He's a minimum kinda guy. He could be in an affair right now, with someone at work. Unless I get a PI and snoop, I wouldn't know. I'm not accusing him of anything, but this is where his last two affairs sprang from.

I just don't have a clear path right now, so I will stay the course, and keep focusing on me. I have my own damage to fix, my own problems that lurk in my head, my own disfuntion, and I AM tired of the extra weight.

Foxy lady, thank you for your support. It really does mean so much to me.

I want ANYBODY reading this to know that I am leading myself here, I'm not allowing what you guys say to deter me, but I am interested in the outside perspective. I do feel like I'm letting myself be a doormat here.

SL,

Exactly!!!!

He has been home for how long now 5-6 months?

When do you talk to Jen again?

Don't get riled up either. Speak how you feel.

I have seen a lot of what you have done but IMVHO you still avoid conflict. You need clarity.

For example. You don't find me attractive.
What part? Your Weight. Do you expect me to look the same as when we met? etc and keep going down the line until you figure out if his idea attractiveness is attainable.

Heck it could be your hair or the way you dress. Who knows, nobody until he tells you.

I don't like you. Wow that is vague. When you say you don't like me what specifically.

Now IMVHO if you were to have some MC with PWC they would call him on this BS. I would start thinking along those lines as a condition.

ONe more question. How is he doing on all the conditions you set for ending Plan B?

howtoheal, thanks for weighing in.

Yes, I do think he's testing me, to see if I will tell him to leave again. I made it perfectly clear last night that my intention is to have a happy marriage. I told him that HE is the roadblock in this current situation, and that, IMO, I couldn't CHANGE his mind unless he WANTS to, and opens himself to the possiblity of being happy here.

I told him that I love him, care for him, and his son cares for him too, his family cares for him, and we want for him to be happy. I did not elaborate, as it is his decision to be happy in our marriage.

I honestly felt like I was sitting next to a fog machine, a very quiet fog machine of very little words.

Oh, Frog, my friend, I did try to get him to elaborate. I can't write every thing that I said, as I can't remember it all, but I tried. He just kept saying "I don't know". I asked him if he would be willing to think on it and get back to me. He didn't really respond to me.

Believe me when i say, I was completely honest and probing as best I could without him completely withdrawing. My next step will be to look into marriage counseling, not MB counseling. There is a tremendous communication gap that we have to traverse.

I hear you about my conflict avoidance, but I took a HUGE step last night. The only thing he mentioned about me not being attractive was my weight.

The conditions for ending Plan B were NC, O/H, IC, and marriage counseling.

-He established NC
-He WAS in IC, and quit not long after coming home, making excuses that it was the same [censored] different counselor
-HE has said no to MC over and over again, or avoided saying anything about it
-As for Openness and Honesty, I don't feel I get that. If I irritate him, he doesn't tell me, or if he is NOT ATTRACTED to me (however difficult that is to admit) he doesn't say. He says so very little.

I am no longer avoiding conflict. AFter last night, I realize that I can have a conversation about serious stuff with him without completely falling apart. I did cry, but I'm not wallowing in self pity here. I'm looking for you guys to call me out, and to call him at and to brainstorm, and/or tell me when I'm way off base.

I expect you all to be HONEST, heh heh.

I have set up babysitter for tomorrow evening, and we are going to see The Bourne Ultimatum. I have been wanting to see that since it came out. I look forward to it.

You ARE sitting next to a fog machine...and being a FWW I know allllll about fog. And it's not just fog from the AP. THere is also the fog that comes from trying to assess the damage you did to your marriage and how can you possibly overcome it? What kind of piece of crap are you that you would do this to your family? And if the marriage wasn't good pre-A, there's the fog of is this ever going to get better----but honestly, from your thread it sounds like your marriage wasn't bad pre-A---

And also the fog that comes from thinking that the BS would never be able to REALLY forgive for this horrible sin, so is it worth trying only to have it collapse all over again...

Anyways, this is all FWW retrospect, men are different, but the fog is real, even when it has nothing to do with an OP.

Maybe you could switch tactics and become a [email]smarta@@.[/email] In response to his statements you could say:

I’m not attracted to you.

--A 2-year throwing himself on the floor in the grocery store when he doesn’t get his way is an attraction. In what way can I attract you?

There is no chemistry.

--You’re right. Your jojo isn’t jiving with my jojo. There can be no “reaction” if there is no merging of the chemicals.

I don’t like you.

--Do you mean you don’t resemble me? Do you mean we’re not equal in value? Do you mean you’re not fond of me? Do you mean you don’t want to have me?

Maybe an unexpected silliness in a serious moment would break through that DENSE fog. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

S/L

Sorry it has to be this way, NOW.

Get on the Horn with Jen and see what she recommends.

PWC needs to start pooing or get off the pot.

If he wants a roommate, tell him to put an ad in the City Paper and go.

It's been over six months.

This stuff does take time.

But, and that's a big but, (no pun intended!) the thaw has to start and PWC should have started to move your way by now.

No, you DO NOT have to settle for anything less than a GREAT M. You know the path, you see the path. PWC just has to step on to it.

Your not staying put on the path, and your not going to get off the path, but you expect PWC to at least enter the path.

Frog is right, stop the insanity. What you have been doing hasn't been working, and some other methods may be needed. I think Jen can help with that.

(((S/L)))

LG

Jennifer told me to give it a couple of months. I expressed to her at that time that I didn't know if I had the strength to keep going, but I would do my best.

I intend on doing that, but I agree that what I have been doing is NOT working.

Keep it coming, this is helping. I want to keep trying, but I need a different tack. The crossroads may be finding another way to do this. Now, keep in mind, PWC will not talk to Jen.

howtoheal, thank you for talking about the fog. It sometimes is so hard to realize that it can be THAT thick. I wish that i could understand it better, even with analogies and such, I just can't comprehend how continuing to hurt the person you have already done so much damage to is even an option.