The thing about the fog, at least in my experience, is that they can't SEE the destruction around them because of it. I't almost like it was a literal fog. It took awhile for my DH to begin to emerge.

He would say such careless and damaging things to me at the beginning and my jaw would drop. I could not figure out HOW THE HECK he could say things like that after everything he'd done to us. He couldn't SEE the effect till much later.

Now, he sees. He works daily on making our marriage better (and that's not an exaggeration). He TELLS people about what he did and how it nearly destroyed us. He TELLS others how much he loves and values me, even more now. The fog is long gone and he can now recognize it a mile away in other people.

This is what you should want for you. A fogless husband who chooses to love you-- every day.

princessmeggy, I do want that. I honestly do. How long can this go on, if the FWS doesn't choose to deal with the problems. I can't imagine remaining in this stage forever, or for any prolonged period.

Yes, the things he says can make my jaw drop, and that's probably why he says nothing. I kept it together last night, kept my cool quite well. I did say that I did not like him the way he is right now. I consider his lack of engagment to be disappointing. I can understand him not liking me. I'm not self righteous, by any means, I don't say things and not back them up with action. *I* did not cheat on me and deflate what was left of our marriage. I just can't take responsibility for his actions, or take the blame or take the guilt from him.

The conversation was eye opening to me. I just can't ignore his truth anymore. Yes, it may be fogged out to no end, but it's his truth. He CANNOT love me. It's impossible. I guess it stands to reason that one would leave under those circumstances, yet he stays.

He is not meeting the conditions of your agreement?

No IC, NO MC. HMMMMM. I will think on that and get back to you somethig doesn't seem right.

My experience is that people with problems hate to go to IC. They actually have to admit they have problems.

We all have them. Heck I loved going to IC. I wanted to address my problems. Some people though think they are perfect.... and don't need help. Everyone else is the problem. Including those whacky IC's and MC's bunch of koooks.

When my wife used to say she didn't like me I had a standard response. I don't like you right now either. I love you and that is why one day I will like you again, if you chose to try.

PWC has always believed in perfection, and may be avoiding admitting the damage due to fog plus his need to not be 'marred' by all of HIS decision.

I broached the subject of the state of our M pre affairs, stating how faulty my thinking was, how much resentment I had allowed to build by not being honest about my needs, and how it really did get to a low point. He then said that he then chose to make it worse by his decision.

No IC bothered me from the get go, BUT, I cannot force him to do anything. That does not mean that we can survive, it just means that he can choose to continue to look outside himself for the answers. I am not his mother. This is not UNCONDITIONAL love. Sorry, it's conditional.

Didn't he agree to it as a condition to end plan B. You cannot force someone to do something they agreed to can you?

Maybe he stays because he doesn't know what else to do.

His A didn't work out like he had hoped it would. He doesn't see any other way. Mainly because he hasn't made the effort, but still, he doesn't believe it can be better so why try.

As you know, he's still lost.

He has to figure this out for himself. Just as his return to you was his choice, looking for answers will have to be his choice.

I think there are things you can probably do to encourage that choice. But we can't MAKE him want to.

Have you ever researched male depression? I know we've talked about it before...but I think that was before his return. I read an article recently (don't know where, sorry) about living with a depressed person and actions you can take as an individual to encourage and help the depressed person find hope.

Some people can eventually pull themselves out of their depression...some just can't.

It's too bad we can't just have them committed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Like rehab. Force them to go because it is the only way to save them...but the learning is all on them.

I know you know all this. It may not be that he doesn't WANT to but feels too much DESPAIR to take any action.

My advice to you? None....I'm not in or have never been in your shoes. Just giving you another perspective to think about from his side. (not that it is justified, just that maybe it IS)

Best to you.

Fox

Foxy lady,

That is what I have been thinking for a long time.

I actually feel bad for him, he could be losing a great deal here, all because he is what? Maybe afraid, maybe stuck. I told him that no one is MAKING him do anything. This is his choice. He chose to come home. To what end? The same one we would have been at had he not returned? What's the point in choosing something, but not following through.

I will stick by what I have said about him in the past. This is really about him being his own worst enemy. When he's away, he longs for home, for whatever reason, probably partly missing me, maybe not, but he longs for it. When he comes home, he sits. I am not even kidding. He may ask me to join him in a drink, but then he sits, not really having me join him, but hanging out in the livingroom with our son, then hitting the hay at 9PM. It's like he's wallpaper.

And Frog, I really don't like him as he is. That is about me. I like men of action, as well as women of action, conviction. When there is a job to do, or a wrong to right, I find it appealing when people stand up for themselves and take responsibility. Right now, I'm just so disappointed, but again, this may be who he has been all along, and I was just unwilling to see it. Again, that's about my viewfinder being askew.

I can safely say that I am WORKING on it. I am getting help, with you guys, with Jennifer, with books and websites and movies and shows. I'm sure that IC would help me too. I am not going to sit here and say my lens is completely clean. There are smudge marks that need to be cleaned away.

I have decided to go back to 8 hour days, so that I can bring home more dough. I will still be picking DS up from the bus stop, but I am going into work earlier.

S/L:

I wanted to note this:



Did he say this last night? Has he ever said anything else like it? Cuz this is a huge admission.

And then you didn't pile it on on that point, did you?

He SEES the changes in you.

He is watching and waiting.

I do not know for what, but something.

He may be "testing" you, see if your the New and Improved S/L.

Or if you will go back to the "old" S/L

Have Fun on Saturday night. Be the S/L who can have fun, and is interested in having fun.

He can set the agenda, or you can, or you can discuss it in advance, some of the things you would like to do....

Go for it.

What do you have to lose?

LG

Maybe the only end he was looking for at the time was to to stop the current pain.

Those darn expectations we have. I don't always agree with the having no expectations theory. I have to have expectations.

If you don't have any expectations, then you settle for less than what you deserve.

If I expect someone to treat me with respect and they don't, it is then time to enforce the boundary.

If I don't expect someone to treat me with respect, and they don't, I got exactly what I expected - nothing.

I liken it a bit to horse training: You walk into the corral with a young horse. Your goal that day is to work on hoof handling. Horse is haltered, a bit excited. I go in expecting to be kicked because this horse is already excited, in fight or flight mode, etc. I will get kicked 8 times out of 10. Because my own fear and concern of being kicked was picked up on by the horse. So I got the reaction I expected. With my hesitancy, I created the very circumstance I expected.

Now....I go into this same corral, same horse, but expect th horse to settle down and allow my handling. I go in with confidence and security and just DO IT. My risk of being kicked goes down dramatically because the horse again feels my confidence and security. And if "I" am confident and secure, there must be nothing to be worried about, so he calms down. Again, I created the circumstances I expected.

Looking back...that was all just rambling. Maybe you can pull something out if it though.

Fox

Funny, Foxy, I don't see that as rambling at all. That is the advise I have been given all along, LEAD BY EXAMPLE. When you give off a sense of confidence, those around you respond to it.

That is what I am doing now. I am becoming more confident. i got a babysitter to go out. I asked PWC to come out with me, to do this and that, i was specific, not leaving it all on him to help me decide. I tossed out options that I KNOW I will enjoy, and that I believe he does enjoy. He chose the movies, I agree. I felt very good in how I handled that. I also feel very good in having talked to PWC.

Oh, and LG, I didn't say anything to his admission. I just kind of let it be. I know that it was a big thing for him. I have seen other admissions before. I hope to see him just admitting things to himself by watching him personally recover. I don't always need him saying things to me, but I need to SEE the changes.

I am completely dug in to changing now. I dig it. I feel better for relieving myself the duty of being a know-it-all, or being perfect. I am not. I have a lot to learn, and I have never been perfect, just felt like I had to be. What the heck is perfect anyway? It's a farce to me. It's not really an attainable goal, whereas being more kind, trying to be more understanding and let people be who they are and live as they do, without judgment from me.

That high horse scares me...

Yes! My mother tried to live her life (my childhood) as the "perfect" minister's wife. It nearly killed her and damaged us in numerous ways. My parents never argued in front of us (perfect parents don't argue), but we knew. I was judged all my life by whole congregations (being a PK).

I am very suspicious as an adult of anyone who insist on perfection in others-- or in themselves. It can't be done and it's no way to live.

You're on the right course. Hopefully PWC will WAKE UP and see what he has in you.

Does he seem the same around other people? Or is it just with you? Could be he IS depressed. My DH was for awhile (like the first 3-4 months).

Well that is easy enough to figure out. Was he a man or action or not?

Why did you pick him. Does he remind you of anyone from your family?

You can lead....but he may not follow. I understand that is what your question is now....what to do if they aren't following?

PWC is setting himself up to get kicked. His own expectations are doing this. He is trying to lead YOU by example....he's expecting you to kick him. Don't follow.

Or kick him. *shrugs* I don't know what will instigate a change.

More time sometimes just makes things harder. More hopeless and less likely to generate motivation.

Keep talking and working through it yourself, SL, many are learning from you.



yeah, you gotta watch the high horse. The higher you are, the further you fall. Somehow the balance needs to be struck where you are humble yet confident.

Always a tightrope, isn't it?

Have a good time this weekend. I'll be thinking of you guys.



Question here..... should this type of admission BE acknowledged? By not acknowledging that this was pretty big, will he not feel heard?

This is the type of thing that makes me wonder if he is depressed and so far into despair that he doesn't have the motivation to get out of it.

By no acknowledgement, is he assuming that you agree and that it can't be forgiven?

It's these self-deprecating (sp) comments that I didn't know what to do with from H. Do you agree, because they are right...they did screw up. Or do you acknowledge what they said...and then get a dialogue going about what to do about it NOW?

Will they see that as "fixing" and a DJ because we assumed to know what they felt and don't trust them to figure out their own answers?

Or do they need us to help find the "fix" as a partner?

I'm looking forward to the responses to you. Your WH has many similarities to mine.

Take care,

Fox

Hi, I was just popping in to read up...reminded me of a lot of things but noothing that i care to comment on...BESIDES you have excellent people here...

Being in a different direction than you are, it's hard for me to say something positive about PWC, the sitting around, not being a man of action, etc...

it was confusing for me to have to think back and see if this was the person I had all along or was this the person that he had become...so, i'm there with you...

I don't know, could you make a list with things you like and things you don't like and then work on the things that you need/want to accept...

just an Idea...

Thinking and supporting YOU!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Frog, in many ways he was a man of action. I didn't notice that he was stuffing his anger, or care back when things were better.

When his parents were both sick and his dad way dying, he was given the responsibility of being the Power of attorney for his mother and father, as well as the benefactor of the estate. That was a lot to deal with, and I was so proud of him for doing that at 18 years of age. As for work, he was always a go getter, learning something new, taking on a new trade, changing trades, going to school. Yes a man of action.

Emotionally, however, I do see his lack of involvement in dealing with problems on the homefront, with his mother, with his birth mother, with his siblings/uncles. I didn't really notice. I thought those things didn't bother him, because he didn't seem to pay it much mind. I've come to find that he WAS angry, or sad, he just never said anything.

I liked the man he was, WARTS and ALL. I don't know if he is tolerant of warts. Maybe not. That's not mine to answer.

Foxy,

As I thought about it on my drive home, I believe that I did say something about his comment, but I can't remember what it was. I know I talked about owning my choice to recover and what that entailed, and that he seemed resentful of some of my stipulations for ending Plan B, like keeping me abreast of his activity throughout the day.

I have thought a lot about this. Truth is, if he wants to, he will cheat again. It will be the same thing, he just starts calling to 'report in' later and later; it slipped my mind, or I didn't think I was going to be here that late, or he will call and say he is on his way and then call an hour later and say he is on his way, just leaving work. I'm not too thrilled, and honestly, don't think his calling me is doing much to win my confidence.

Maybe that's not fair, but that's how it is right now. I am no closer to giving him trust than I was while in Plan B. Yes, I lowered the bar by just letting him quit IC, yes, I lowered the bar by not finding a MC, even though he didn't WANNA. Yup, I lowered the bar, and once done, you can't bring it back up without struggle.

I think that's where we are now.

Not judging, SL, just talking through it with you. Wish I had more to offer.

Think chris and sdguy still have the batmobile at the ready?




Catch 22, isn't it? Almost a trigger because everytime he calls to "check in" your reminded of why he needs to do so. But if he doesn't call....your dealing with a whole different set of triggers.

Ain't life grand? Wanna run away to a tropical island with me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Fox

So he is/was a man of action when there is a tangible course of action with a clear end or goal in site?

Like being the Power of attorney or benefactor. These are actionable things.

But emotionally he has stuffed it or kept it in.

SL you can lead and he may not follow. The thing that confused me about the analogy is what happens if the leader gets to far ahead? Will the follower get lost.

This is a real big thing because it almost seems like a fear of "recommitment" or commitment.

It has me confused all I can say is don't stay a course that isn't working. Try new things.

Like getting a baby sitter and going out togehter. Good Job on that.

A tropical island sounds wonderful. I have never been. I've always wanted to. I would love to lose weight and then go on a trip.

I joined Weight Watchers today, and will be using a combo of Core meals with extra cheating points, for when I want a glass of wine or want a piece of cake or what not. I look forward to changing how I handle food. I never had to worry before. I could eat whatever, and never gain a pound. After I had DS, at the age of 30, it just seemed to pile on. I'm sure stress, and lack of willpower had NOTHING to do with it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I have to say, I appreciate the effort to call. Now, if the phone doesn't ring, I wonder why. He had to work a VERY LONG day this week (9A - 2A 17hrs), and he didn't call at all. I called him at midnight, when he said he would be leaving soon. He didn't get home until 2:45AM. I know, sounds suspicious, right? It's the one time he hasn't called. I am going to take him on his word that it was all work. I'm sure he would be pissed reading this, thinking that he did think to call, but it was late. I don't give a sh!te, call, wake me up, so that I don't wake up and see an empty bed and wonder if you got stopped by the cops or got in an accident or, YES, were having an affair. Sorry, my thought process is what it is now, and won't change without the build up of trust, and bigger deposits in my LB.

I might get called on that too, and that's okay. I want more from him. I am willing to take as many thwacks as you guys can muster. I have told him this. This is not an ultimatum. I have important needs that are not being met. I'm sure he does too! I am not KRESKIN, I can't read minds. I can't READ HIM at all anymore.

Frog, I agree that he was a man of action with ACTIONABLE things. He would talk to me and BE emotional with me. He would talk about his anger, too, but he never did anything about it, to my knowledge. I ASSUMED he did. No one but me was ever aware of his anger with them, but I ASSUMED either it didn't matter enough to him to confront these people or he was okay with expressing it to me, and that was enough.

It is his way of dealing with anger. The person he is angry with never knows. He did turn on my sister though. Treated her disrespectfully on a number of occassions, saying that she deserved it for the way she acted and treated others. I can't say that I disagree that she did say and do some bad things, but why lower yourself to the same level, and be unkind or cruel. That just lowers you, IMO.
I know, because I treated her with disrespect, too. Yes, she treated me the same, but that's no excuse for MY poor behavior. Part of what I'm working on these days--ACCEPTANCE of people how they are. Yes, you can hope that they will change, be more kind or more giving, but when they don't change, you must accept they are how they are.

Yes, i HOPE that PWC will make the necessary changes for him to be happy, but I can't do that for him.

Do you think he is angry with you?

It sounds like your perception is that when he is angry with someone he doesn't necessarily show it outwardly in a hostile angry way. He does subtle things.

So if he is mad instead of saying he is mad he might make a dig or something?

You may be on to something here.

Have you asked him if he is angry with you about something.

This isn't MB but one of our MC's said there is usually underlying anger on the WS or FWS part in his experience.

HMMM. Good luck with Weight Watchers/