I have asked and he says he is not angry with me. I take him at his word. He may, however, be annoyed with me, which can build to resentment and then anger. I can't speak for him being angry with me or not. I won't guess, either.

Did Weight Watcher not work for you in the past, Frog? It did for PWC, and has for many of my friends, problem is, unless you make solid changes to your regular diet, the weight will always come back on, and I know that. I need to change my relationship with food. If I stick to the core foods, i get 35 points a week to do with what I like. That's 17.5 glasses of wine. I really only need 16 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No I used my own Diet. I was pissed too. I went on a diet lost all this weight and felt great. Then my FWW has an A and I go on the infidelity diet.

I actually lost too much weight and had to gain some back. If I woulda known I would have waited for her to have the A. LOL.

I lost about 40-50 lbs. I quit smoking last year and I have put a little on but only about 8 lbs. I think I like the way I look at this weight so I am staying with it.

As far as him being angry I might be concerned if he doesn't express his anger.

You are in a rock and a hard place. I really honestly beleive that MC would help and IC for him too. I only say that because heck we could all use some IC.

I agree Frog, I really do. Again, I can't straightjacket him up and tote him off to MC or IC, for that matter.

I fear for him and his future. His family's track record is not good (as my famly's isn't either--I'm trying to change that). His brother got married, had two kids and then cheated on his wife, left her, knocked up the next girl, moved on from her and knocked up another. I think I've actually lost track of his track. He also got into alcohol and drug abuse, from what I understand. His birth mother withdrew from life in an alcoholic fog, and the alcohol killed her two years ago. She was in her late fourties, left behind another son, who witnessed her alcohol induced rages for YEARS, up until she got sick and died.

His mother cheated on his father, and took PWC along for the ride, as an excuse, like, "I took him shopping, right PWC?" YEEEEEUCKY UCKY! It was PWC who told his father on her, revealing her affair.

I can understand the anger, just can't see how holding it in serves any purpose but to hurt him.

Nope you can't.

Have you reminded him he gave you his word he would go to IC and MC if you came out of plan B?

You are right holding in anger does no good but plenty of people do it.

He has had a tough life. A lot of us did. The harder the life the more unclear right and wrong may become. We learn from what we see.

I had a hard life too, and wasn't clear on right and wrong, and didn't really have a firm grasp on REAL commitment, as in a marriage. It's unfortunate that I had to learn in such a harsh way, but I believe in fulfilling a commitment, big and small.

I think PWC has experienced some very poor behavior, especially from people who should be the most trustworthy. It's not fair that he had to suffer at their hands. Changing who you are so that you understand how NOT to repeat these behaviors, or to repair damage you've done and make your behavior match who you want to be.

I don't know, maybe none of his past is why he chose the affair over our marriage, but it seems to be screaming out to at least be examined.

SL!!!!! THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!!! REALLY!!!

IMO, NOW you are getting somewhere...

PWC is talking..that's the OPENNESS and HONESTY necessary for establishing a GREAT MARRIAGE...true intimacy..TRANSPARENCY...

I'm sure my H doesn't LIKE me sometimes...sometimes I don't LIKE HIM...

He's telling you THE TRUTH, I think...

Encourage MORE of this...

Let him know that this is OK with you..you can HANDLE it..you want to HEAR what he has to say...

SAY LIKE I SAID TO MY H early in RECOVERY..."You may not love me now but you will fall in love with me again...encourage him to keep TALKING about his wants and needs...

That kind of talking HURTS but it draws you closer..that's what's different about my marriage now..WE ARE REAL with each other and CLOSER than EVER... with the BITTER comes the SWEET...

"PWC, I hear you that you don't find me physically attractive and I have made a commitment to work on that...I heard you and joined WW's today..."

He's telling you that PHYSICAL ATTRACTIVENESS is a primary need of his...better than filling out the questionnaire isn't it?

You've done GREAT WORK on starting to talk to HIM..

KEEP IT UP...DON'T BE DISCOURAGED..KEEP MOVING FORWARD...

And BUGS is absolutely right..he continues to be attracted to the same things..

AND YOU CAN HAVE THAT BODY AGAIN...

At 52, I'm in better shape than I have been in MY WHOLE LIFE..of course, I diet and work out almost every day... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Silent:

HAve fun tonight!

Keep working it.

As Mimi said, he is TALKING.

You might not have liked what he said, but he said it, and sometimes, doing that is all you need to start more talking.

Sort of the dam breaking.

Keep working it.

You WILL succeed.

(((S/L)))

LG

I plan on having a great time.

I am glad that we talked; the initial reaction was just that, a reaction. TAlking it over here helped so much. I now feel more open to discuss things as they come up, not to 'wait and see' if he'll defog or whatever. That's not my issue, that is his.

My issue is our marriage, and how to make it great

The weight loss, is something that I want for me, so much. I know that I will look and feel great. I look good now, but I'll look as I did before my son was born, and I think that's more natural. I'm not going for the bod I had in my twenties, but I'm going for athletic again. I'm thinking of going back to racquetball, too. We'll see.

This focusing on me stuff pays off! I finally realized that it doesn't only mean doing for your self, but your relationships, too. Finding out what works and what doesn't really requires starting those conversations; making them about understanding and NOT arguing a point.

PWC is still here, and even talking up a storm about racing last night. I was so happy for him.

This fear may be busted. On to the next...

LMAO...Good to hear you today...that's my girl!!!

I think it's still being on that rollercoster...the ups and downs...but NOW they are differetn...I find that mine are focusing on POWS...focusing on me...the valleys are getting further apart and not as high...it's easier these days to get centered...

The emotions are not so high and low...more balance...less wasted energy...

Perhaps you need to get a GODDESS statue too! LMAO...

Oh, one thing...YOU already know that you may not be understood the way that you would like to be in those conversation, that's teh part where you may have to just accept that you are not understood and leave it at that...

That's still a toughie for me but I think that everyone likes to be understood and sometimes that just not the case...wishing you the best...

Knowing that you'll be just great with those O&H statement...stating your stuff...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Try working on your weight. It will give you a GREAT feeling about yourself. Usually a person can just cut the carbs and fats, and do fine. I work at a hospital where we had a "Biggest Loser" contest. I signed up and decided to make lifelong changes in my eating habits.

Now when there are donuts in the morning, I pass them up, realizing that I will have to walk 3 miles to work off the calories. I don't buy chips, icecream, pies, and all my old favorites. Also try to eat 7 or 8 fruits or vegetables daily. It is surprising how steadily the extra pounds came off.

I organized and cleaned my closet, and as I lost inches, donated my size 12 clothes to charity. I bought temporary clothes at the thrift shop, size 10. I'm aiming for size 8, and then will get new clothes.

I'm never hungry, and only exercise by walking a mile in the AM and at night. Also I still have a glass of Merlot once in awhile. It has been easy, and so satisfying.

SL-
I hope that you have a great time tonight! You and your H deserve it!

I also have been on a weight loss quest... I wish you well on your journey!

How was your weekend, SL? Did PWC join you on Saturday night?

Fox

Hey Foxy lady,

Yes, PWC joined me. We did go see The Bourne Ultimatum. I loved it. Some really great, nasty sounding fight scenes, and plenty of car chases!!!

We then went to a local pub, and had a drink. We talked about the movie and things that arose as a product of that conversation. It was relaxed, low key. Just what I needed.

Sadmo, thanks for being so supportive or the weight loss. I really do just want to get back to my pre baby weight, which was about 135. I was a size 8 then, and it looked pretty good on me. I would be completely satisfied at that weight, as it is healthy and maintainable. When I was a teen, early twenties, I was in the high 120's, but sported a lot of muscle mass. I've been having so many problems with my neck, back and now hand, that it's been difficult to maintain a weight training regimen. I'm currently not doing any, because I cannot use my left hand.

I can do cardio, however, and do plan on getting back to the heavy bag after I see the neurologist (if he okays it--it is a bit of a jar to the system when you hit that thing). I can walk, of course, but NO running. I only run when being chased, by DS or some other foe...

Still feeling very good right now. I finally had a break through with detaching. I understand it now. It's not about lowering your standards and throwing your arms up, it's about boundaries, speaking them, enforcing them, and giving up the illusion of control of the other parties decisions based on your boundaries. Much of the fear I have has dropped away, in terms of communication, as I know that I can do it very calmly. I also recognize my body's need to release anger, frustration and sadness, and then move forward.

This has been good for me. I have much more hope that we can get through this, together. I know we have rough seas ahead, and I know that I will have bad days. I know I will slip. I don't fear PWC leaving each time I have a set back. If he does, well, i'll deal with that as it comes, but I don't see the sense in living every day, and watching every single interaction with the fear that he will leave. How will I learn what NOT to do if I'm not allowed to screw up here and there, just as I have given PWC the room to maneuver and learn. Hopefully, he will continue to do the same for me.

What does PWC find to be PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE, though? It's perfectly OK to try to be PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE in a way that suits your H and vice versa. It's not about what's only good for YOU....the MB WAY...MEETING HIS EMOTIONAL NEEDS...

SL,

I used Filler Foods and water. I lost a lot and it is easy to sustain.

I stayed away from the fattening stuff too.

Filler foods for me were cucumber(sp) tomatoe, fruits etc. Anything good for you that is low calorie.

For instance I would make a cucumber tomatoe salad with only balsamic vinager. Eat that with a big glass of water then wait to have dinner. So if I had steak or potatoes or something I ate a moderate amount.

Eat as early in the morning as you possibly can too this gets your metabolism going. I lost all the weight without even working out.

The weekend sounded great!!!!

What I would say about the whole conversation is that sometimes people do say things just to be mean a little.

Maybe he was trying to be a little mean at just that moment?

My FWW does that sometimes. She says stuff and really it was because I hurt her feelings before that.

I don't think trying to downplay the significance of painful subjects permits further PERSONAL GROWTH.

One of my biggest regrets was denying the significance of statements that my H said to me PRE-A about his marital concerns.

Looking back, he did TELL ME LOTS OF STUFF that I didn't listen to..cause it HURT TOO MUCH..stuff about MY WEIGHT, in fact....

I think PWC was being HONEST about his concerns about SL's PHYSICAL ATTRACTIVENESS to him..that's only one of the many ENs..she meets others for him...

But strictly speaking, in terms of the MBer's POV, his OPENNESS AND HONESTY about that is great..a MAJOR STEP in their MARITAL RECOVERY...

And if he is like my H at all, PHYSICAL ATTRACTIVENESS in the weight area is highly connected to her SEXUAL ATTRACTIVENESS...

He will receive it to be LOVING if she listens and responds and he will OPEN up to her even more if she listens and responds...

SL, you know best of course..but it seems to me that he was being HONEST and not MEAN...it would be judgemental, IMO, to equate his HONESTY with MEANNESS...

You want to grow to a point in your marriage where you can be COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT with each other...IT'S WONDERFUL to be able to take the BITTER with the SWEET..makes the SWEET that much SWEETER...

Mimi,

PWC liked my pre baby weight. HE thought I looked great! Also, in his current state, I don't think his opinion, beyond me being 'a little heavy' is giong to be specific. That entire part of the conversation, about what he likes, or wants, was excruciating for him. It is so hard to watch him struggle when we talk, trying to find the most pleasing way to answer a question. I appreciate the fact that he is trying not to hurt me.

We'll cross that bridge after I start losing the weight. I'm not going to push him right now. I wish I could convey how very difficult he finds TALKING about any issues we have. I wonder if he feels like he's not ALLOWED to have an opinion due to his infidelity. I don't know. I just stress to him, while in conversation, that his opinion is very important to me, as well as his honesty, even if he knows it will hurt me. I hope we can remedy that over time, as I keep having very open conversations and hearing his opinions.

I'm not concerned right now about how much he wants me to lose, just that he wants me to lose. AS he defogs and bit more, he may think differently about my weight, as well as so many other things. He may care less, he mare care more. I don't think this decision has to be STATIC right now.

Frog,

I just need to cut out the simple carbs. Generally, when I cook, I don't FRY things or everything isn't in a cream sauce. It was usually FOR PWC that I cooked that way.

I'll help prepare meals for PWC, but I have told him that I feel uncomfortable preparing foods that I may, at least initially, crave. Fried foods are obviously going to be out for me. Anyway, plenty of room for POJA on cooking for him . I'm willing, but he needs to tell me what he wants, if he wants home cooked meals.

We'll see, it's going to be interesting.

Day one is today. Doing really well right now, I keep telling myself that this is a change, like quitting smoking, a decision that I've made for a change in lifestyle. I remind myself how unnecessary cookies and 'junk' are. My boss loves to bring cookies and candy to work.

Anyway, one day at a time. If I do well, I get to have a couple of glasses of wine this weekend, and BREAD.



.

Mimi,

I post at work. There are a few people I still actively post to but my time is not what it once was.

Your advice is wonderful but there is usually more then one perspective. I do not post to you I post to SL.

She can take my advice with a grain of salt or not. What I like about advice it is free and you usually get what you pay for.

I understand your strict adherance to MB principles.

From my POV though you focus exclusively on the BS and not the FWS.

Your advice, MB advice can be counter productive if both sides do not adhere strictly to MB principles.

What if a FWH decides he likes bigger boobs? Go for it? What if he likes red hair? Dye your hair? What if he likes bound feet? Pierced tounges and tattoos.

So my statment should have read more like this.

SL.... The weight is probably an issue. Unfortunately men are visual creatures. If you can lose the weight in a safe, healthy manner and it makes you feel better about yourself then by all means do it.

I would also say that M is a two way street. I know you have made changes and will continue to do so in order to try to help improve your M. On his EN questionairre where did HE place physical attractiveness?

If he placed it very high on the list I would suggest trying to fill that need as best you can.

If it was low on the list I would focus on the things that are higher on the list.

I would also use this as a place to discuss some of YOUR emotional needs that may not be getting met.

You do not want this to be operation Door mat. Where he sayd I don't like and you jump without him returning anything back.

When my FWW and I discuss things sometimes she gets upset and says "you are not perfect either" you have a fat butt and I don't like that."

Later she may say "I was being mean because I was upset so I said you have a fat butt. Your butt isn't really fat. You are still ugly but your butt isn't fat."

So for me before I decide on a course of action I will go back and verify that her HONEST and OPEN statement was honest and Open not just a jab or something.

Then I will try to meet a realy EN.

Mimi, great response; I was posting while your post came in.

I am taking him at his word, and starting there. Like I said, I appreciate his honesty and how difficult it was for him to admit that.

I AM doing this for me; *I* want to look good for him, as well as pleasing to myself when I try things on and look in the mirror. It's really a win win situation.

I do agree that this was a monumental thing, and am taking his comment very seriously.

I don't think he was being mean. I think he was being honest, and that sometimes hurts. I'm so over that. It's no big deal now. Like I said, I felt like crying, a sadness over MANY of the things that were said, not just about my weight. I let it go, and have moved on. I learned from the conversation and am using that to OUR advantage.

I'm sure this will not be the last thing he says that will hurt me, as I'm sure he hurts when we discuss him.

Frog,

One thing I wanted to say about cutting the carbs and losing weight is this; YOU STINK because MOST men can cut the carbs and drop weight like crazy. It takes us ladies a bit longer. I'm hoping by next year to be close to my goal.

I appreciate your responses and definitely hear you about the door mat thing. Mimi's advice is directed toward me, and only ABOUT me, and I get what she is saying. Many people here said, judging from what I was telling them, PWC was not doing enough for recovery. I didn't disagree, but was at a loss for what I could do about that. I was afraid to say anything.

I'm not afraid, AS MUCH, and will probably feel better and more relaxed as we speak more often.

PWC IS NOT on the MB track. I am, and will do all that I can to incorporate it into our marriage, if he agrees. WE have to do this together. HE will not fill out the EN questionnaire; he suggested it months ago, and then never did. He will not speak to any MB counselors. He will not go to MC (as of the last we spoke).

With that being said, I may have more of a non-MB recovery on my hands, which could be longer and more difficult, or could be just as difficult, but in different ways and just as long. I believe that the principles of MB will help to guide us, regardless of PWC jumping on the 'bandwagon'.