The postive change in you may or may not help your marriage. Not today or ever.

It doesn't mean you should stop working on you to be the best SL you can be.

For me it seems weird. My FWW had an A because she was not happy in our M. This made me realize I wasn't all that happy either.

As the shock wore off I realized she had valid points, none of which entitled her A. So I went about making changes or resetting expectations. Meaning on some of the things she had issue I couldn't meet. If they were make or break then let's call it a day. I am not going to say I can or will do that if I can't. I also came here talked to a lot of people, did reading outside on these issues. Identified my own issues etc.

Now 4 years later and I feel as though I have made many positive changes. I feel ast though I am a better man an husband.

I don't feel as though my FWW used the A as an impetus for change on her side.

At somepoint you want to see your concerns addressed.

When did Jennifer say you would re asses the situation?

Boards are slow today. Meh, no biggie, I just wanted to get what I was thinking OUT there.

Frog,

I will continue to assess myself in our situation, and make changes that I can, and that will be beneficial in ANY relationship that I have. These changes are fundamentally good for all, including family and friends and my relationship with my son. I have a lot to learn, and much to assess and work on. I am aware of that.

I can say that I am just quite tired right now. I am not justifying my not wanting to work on the marriage, just EXPRESSING it.

I still do whatever I can, that I know will show PWC my love. I cook, trying to keep him in mind, even with the diet. I also respect him enough to let his problems be his own. The fact that they affect our relationship is what I speak of, and my frustration with that.

If I live in a world of no expectations from my marital partner, will I be settling for more of the same? If someone omniscient were to say that our marriage will remain like this forever, I would divorce. I don't know that I'm okay with that, and am struggling right now.

Right now, I think of my son and PWC. I think of how much hurt I would cause by quitting right now. Yes, I am more concerned for my son. I am also concerned for PWC. His well being is important to me, because I do love him.

Our relationship is in the ashes right now. What lies beneath is unseen and unheard.

I am not only looking to being a better wife, mother, woman here. Yes, it is a goal of mine. I am looking for a marraige of love, respect, compassion, responsibility, partnership.

I thought about it yesterday. Our R is okay right now, for what we have been thru. We talk, kiss each other good bye, good night, hang out on occassion. THat's pretty much it. We take great care to do things for one another, like picking up after each other, and thinking about what we both want for dinner, what to watch on TV together, what movies to see.

I know that doesn't sound like much, but it's something. There isn't a lot of laughter, but maybe there's not much to laugh about right now. I'm trying to look forward to what we can have, and not what we HAD, prior to the A's. Looking back can be bad.

I'm coming from a place deeply rooted in the NOW. My most valued needs are not being met. I would know that even WITHOUT MB. I am not touched, caressed, hugged, from him TO me.

I have NO IDEA what makes him feel happy, or what makes deposits for him. I have decided to do what I can, and stop obsessing about MAKING him happy. I'm out of that. I'm done.

I am here, if he needs me, wants me. I'm not going to continue to push to find ways to meet needs that may not be important to him at all.

THis cannot go on forever, though. It took one week for me to lose the positivity this time.

I can almost feel that he needs something from me, but I have no idea what, and he won't tell me. WHen I am tending to myself, taking care of me, reading a book, or trolling the internet for new recipes, or walking around outside, he comes to see what I'm doing, like he's bored, or lonely.

I talk to him, and then he awkwardly dawdles and then leaves the room. It's like he needs attention, but when I give it, he is either like a stone or ignores it. It's just frustrating . I have no idea what to do with him.

I fear that I will grow tired of this and not care anymore, about my marriage or him. I cannot change him, or get him to open up. I can change me, and I am and will, but that doesn't necessarily save a marriage.

Hi SL:
I was in your shoes three months ago. Almost exactly the same thing: my H couldn't touch me, or hug me, or express any affections. I must be not physically attractive to him at all at that time. I'm 5'2 and 110 lb and I always look young for my age and have a pretty face and great shape. I'm not trying to boast or anything, my point is: it's probably not your problem that he couldn't feel attracted to you. It's him problem. It's his state of withdrawal and entitlement that makes him not able to feel any love.

My H came home with a notion that he would never be happy again and he sacrified his own happiness to be with me and kids. With that mindset, he couldn't find me physically attractive no matter what I looked like or how much love I showed to him.

In our case, I kept showing love to him. I initiated affections. Although it felt awkward even to me at first, it got better later on. The bonding was still established although he didn't intiate. He started to respond to my affections with more ease after a while, but still it took him coupld of months to try to initiate a bit himself, like initiate touching when we sleep. It does take a lot of time for some of them to do just that. But when that happens, it's a big step. They start to gain more and more feelings back when the process gets started. It's a slow process, but it will happen.

I do see progress in your last post, like him interested in what you are doing, which is very positive. For a very long time, when I was reading a book in bed, my H would pretend that he didn't notice. Now he asks what I'm reading. Although he still refuses to touch those marriage books I'm reading, he at least asks me what I'm reading and not completely try to ignore me.

My H's last attempted C was end of March. After that, we seem to be making progress in the affection department much smoother than before. Also he started taking a small dose of AD at that time. I am not sure which one had the most effect, but I did notice a huge difference after that.

Also are you doing well with time together? We have been spending all hours after work and weekends together with kids. And we planned a lot of vacations to go out and have fun. I'm running out of vacation time now. Usually it's me who planned all those things and he just went along. Now for the columbus day weekend, he told me that he wanted to go out with us to have a little get away. So now he is the one who wants time together. And it's fun to see that change. He even wanted to go to the beach to see sunset with me these days. He was not like this even pre-A.

I just want you to still see hope out there. I do see hope in your case because I was hanging there just like you for a long time also before my H really started to participate.
But I do see little progress here and there after April, which was what kept me going. Do you see his effort and small progresses every now and then?

Stay strong and be patient. Don't supress your own needs also. When I had my SF needs and he was not mentally/emotionally ready, I did feel awkward to ask, but I did, and it turned out ok. I got my needs met by him, and I think it helped him to get out of his deep hole also. Just don't be afraid of rejection to the point of denying your natural needs.


LA

Thanks LA,

I do see his attempts, as I did post above.

I have asked ABOUT SF, and made it clear that I would really like to be together in this way. I have asked ABOUT affection and made it clear that this is a HIGH need for me.

I am aware that he has so much to work on, and I am hanging in there. I am frustrated. I want my H back, damnit! I want something more than what all my friends give me, and to an even greater extent! It's frustration; plain and simple.

I have told myself that I am going to ASK for a hug every day, from here on out. I want to touch him, and to feel him touching me, even if he's not INTO it. Just make contact. I'm not being at all childish about this, and withholding, I honestly just don't know what to do.

His response is always that I'm doing so much, and he recognizes it, BUT, he just doens't feel it, or CAN'T do it, or whatever EXCUSE can be made to not GIVE.

and if anyone wants to say to accept him as he is now, I DO. My problem is that this is not enough for ME.

I see his coming to me as him extending himself into recovery, even if only for a glimpse. I do see it as positive.

He may fear that I will divorce him no matter what. If only he would really listen when I talked, that I want HIM, our M. If only he would really SEE what I do, daily. If I can get through a day without feeling hurt by his lack of affections, and continue on, why can he not see the level of commitment? I just don't get it.

Any emails I receive from him are laden in guilt. He says, "I see the changes you have made, and feel that you DO deserve better than me" blah blah blahbetty blah. It has begun to smack of excuses why he can't face himself, his demons, his wrongdoing.

Is this fair? HE11 NO! It is the way it is...

SL,

I wish I had something for you. I really do. I know people will say do this, try that and to no avail.

Each FWS and each BS is different. What works for some will lead to failure for others.

I have noticed a common thread in recovered M's. A FWS who invests fully in recovery at some point. A FWS who pays back what they took out with the A. With equal value.

Not your FWS particularly but I can certainly understand how a fWS may not think they can ever set things right. It is such a huge debt but with the right bS it can be paid back over many, many years. But at some point the BS has to see a change that makes them believe the FWS will pay it back. Not today but eventually.

That is why when I see advice sometimes that says expect nothing I don't get it. Even Harley says it would be crazy to just forgive without getting restitiution.

Wouldn't that be an expectation at somepoint.

I think you are getting to the point where you want to start seeing the deposits that make you believe they will keep coming until you are fully compensated.

I think we keep getting to the same place. He isn't there yet. He may never get there but can you wait and see?

I know you can if you have the right mindset?

Hi SL.

Are you sure NC is secure?

I hate to say it but some of these things are red flag-like to me.


This is a verbatim quote Wayzilla used during one of her "poor pity me" sessions while I was in Plan A.

Hi SL, I mostly lurk here but I have read your whole story. I was thinking that maybe, he wants to *do* something with you. I don't mean watch TV together type of thing but men like projects and activity.

How about asking him to do a (fun) project with you and see what happens? When I say fun I mean that in opposition to a "lets build an addition to the house" thing, in my case that would be a recipe for disaster. So for instance, Halloween is coming up, how about making and decorating cupcakes for Halloween with him. Not just boring frosted cupcakes but really elaborate cute/scary cupcakes where you use a whole bunch of different candy/cookies food coloring etc. You might have a really fun time, and that kind of activity builds closeness, I think. Look on the internet for cupcake ideas.

When you are done decorating, have your son deliver them to the neighbors or his teachers at school. If he doesn't want to do it, do something he can join in with your son and I'll bet he will want to join after a while.

Hey, SL

I have nothing to add.....just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you.

Take care,
Fox

You are absolutely right Frog! It is the same answer over and over. Yes, I can wait. I'm in no rush to do anything, I am honestly just expressing frustration. I hope you guys don't become too frustrated with me. I just can't seem to keep up momentum.

My body is hurting right now, and that doesn't help one bit. I have to schedule an MRI and C-spine, then have some nerve testing done. The neurologist believes it may be a problem in my cervical spine; either slipped disc or degenerative disc. I now cannot feel most of my left hand. It's tingly and sometimes painful, as well as my elbow. On the bright side, the allergies are waning significantly this week, which is nice.

Chrisner, I don't know if he is in contact beyond the accounts that I have access to, namely, I do not have access to his work accounts. That being said, he is transparent about his whereabouts, when he is not here. When he is not at work, he is here. We spend the bulk of our free time together. At this point, going by his transparency, and phone records and email, etc, I would have to say NC is still in place.

Kallista,
I often wonder what he would want to do with our free time. I ask, he doesn't make much effort into making plans, so I'm left with trying to figure it out. This is part of my frustration. I have no idea what he wants, even in terms of recreation.

I love to throw Halloween parties. It's great! I am going to pose the option to PWC and see how he feels about it. He likes to make cool things for the party. He's made a pop-up ghoul that uses a motion sensor and air compressor. He's made a ghost that glows under black light illumination and uses a 'crank' or pulley system to animate it. REally cool stuff. It would be nice just to get him thinking about home in a festive way again.

Even if we don't throw a party, it would be good to start building something for NEXT year, or even just to scare the little trick or treating ghoulies.

As for the cupcakes, I might fall WAY off of my diet if I go making those. I would probably gain back the three pounds that I've lost!!! mmmmm, cuuuupcaaaaakes... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Howdy Foxy lass,

Hope you are doing well. Week one of the diet down; going thru the sugar DT's, but otherwise not fairing too badly. I miss those super refined carbs, in all their simple-sugar glory.

That is good! The email quote you posted was exactly what she once said. It really froze me when I read it here.

Whewww....can I have a cupcake?

Good for you! Little by little, 3 pounds here, 3 pounds there, eventually add up to a bunch of pounds.

I'm not much of a sugar eater (aside from pop) but BOY! do I love the salt!

A couple of months ago I did a lemonade cleanse. Sounds kind of weird but was so helpful in kick starting me again. It has organic lemons, cayenne pepper, and pure syrup. Very interesting.....NO hunger pains at all. Probably not good in the long term, but was just what I needed to get going again.

I'm doing pretty good for the most part. Had a pi$$ing match with WH this morning via email, but it certainly doesn't get to me like it used to. He is what he is. I'll update on my thread.


Fox

Chrisner, I hear you. There isn't a lot of trust right now, so I do check in now and then. I have also come to terms with the fact that he will do what he's gonna do.

Nope, I'm more concerned about him burying his head in the sand, in order to avoid the world above ground. His worst enemy resides inside him. It's certainly not me. I would have hurt him by now if I had such an intent.

No matter how much I 'hurt' his feelings, he will never know pain at my hands. I'm not into revenge. It doesn't suit me. I will protect myself and take care of myself, and defend myself and my own, meaning I WILL fight, when it comes down to it; I'm just not interested into putting that much effort into revenge. It's a waste of my time.

About the email quote, PWC has been saying this now for well over a year. It's an excuse, plain and simple. He can be the man that I need and want. He chooses his path, not me. Inside himself, somewhere, I'm almost sure that he knows this is true, too.

He's got 'issues'. Up to him what to do about it. One must recognize that the decisions they make have an effect on others' decisions and so on.

He is being O&H, when approached; he is being transparent, he has joined the parenting team, he helps with home upkeep, by doing the dishes now and then, without so much as a whisper from me. I recognize that my patience ebbs sometimes, and that is when I come here.

I could use a little fun, NOT PLANNED BY ME.

I guess I could just tell PWC to plan an outting for us and leave it at that. Something to look forward to, beyond this day to day blah.

I just want to lay the reigns down for a bit.

Nope!!!

My advice will only change if Jennifer gives you a different plan.

I absloutely believe you have reason to be concerned. This is not recovery in a vacuum.

I know a lot of the focus is on you being the best you can be with no expectations. I think that is ok for now.

In the not so distant future I will begin to advise differently.

No one expects you to wait forever. But wait as long as you can then decide on another course of action.

remember my old signature.."The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."

SL-

Maybe I am of a different mind set now.

But. WHY did he come back?

Are you content to live like this?

I would say, too, that I think that the time is coming for you to basically tell him to put something into the M or leave.

For real.

What is he doing to help things? Is he making you feel secure? Are you happy? Is he happy?

It has been a long time now. I think that HE needs to show you that HE wants to be there.

Can you honestly say that you want to live out your life like this?

I am sorry, it just makes me mad that he has not responded to all of your efforts!

Oh, and I forgot, CONGRATS on the weight loss!

It can be a little overwhelming to keep getting suggestions to change change change. I can't keep going as I have. I don't think I'm giving myself time to get used to changes I'm making before I move on to the next, and that could spell disaster. It could lead to a lot of slips and even reverting back to old behaviors and habits. So, one change at a time.

I've decided to change how I eat. BIG CHANGE right now, very stressful to get used to. I'm enjoying it, but also probably going thru withdrawal. It's a lifestyle choice and it is BIG.

I've changed a lot about the way I view the world and my relationships, and I think I need time to let those things sink in.

Now, as for what PWC does or doesn't do. He DOES things around the house and he takes great care of his son. He's really developing his parenting skills. I'm so happy to see that. He has true joy in his eyes now when he is with his son. It is quite a change. I think he stays for DS sake as I do; neither one of us want to hurt him again.

The burr of the whole thing is, PWC needs to begin to recognize that he will not be able to save his son from the pain of separation and D unless he joins in the R. I know I'm supposed to be above it and all, but what he did to me was a horrific thing, and there has to be some moves toward loving me again, or I'm out. It's just that simple.

AS far as how much time he has to do that, I don't really know. It will be quite a while. PWC is very aware of my feelings on this matter. I have told him that I will not continue infinitum in a loveless marriage. I love him, I do, but that's just not enough to save our marriage. He HAS to love me back in order for it to work. I'm not going to compromise this point. It is MY boundary, and I will not budge on it.

As for what I see as love, well, I'd have to say that if PWC was taking the initiative to touch me, have SF with me and plan things with me. Yes, I can hear someone chiming in right now to say something regarding PWC picking up after me and son. I thank him on the regular for those things, but it's still like having a roommate, not a lover. Right now, this may be his way of showing me love, and I do appreciate that. He CAN do more.

As for me, I suppose I could do more and more and more. I'm going to keep things static for a bit longer, on my end, and let him come to me a bit more.

It's an odd dynamic. If I give and give and give, I think he just feels more and more guilty, and avoids me more and more, or cringes when I hug him or touch him, more and more.

I've noticed if I keep doing the things that I can, and just lay off of him, getting hugs when I need and touching when I want to feel him, and making it short and sweet, he responds better, seems much more relaxed. I wonder if he feels more pressure when I'm showing NEED for something from him, as opposed to him just giving when he FEELS it.

I liken it to his thing with flowers. If I say I really like flowers and would like for him to bring them home to me more often, he says that he will have to wait because it won't be a surprise, now that I've asked for them. The end result is, I rarely get flowers.

If I ask for what I want, I wonder if the same principle applies? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No you are not supposed to be above it all. That was my comment about recovery in a vacuum. It CANNOT be all about you and stay in the M.

It can be all about you for your recovery.

So there are 3 recoveries that may occur. Yours, His and your M's.

I would say that they are all related and there are no gaurantees. You can recover, he can recover and you M may not. You can recover he may never recover and your M may never recover. Or he may recover you may not recover and you M may not recover. I think you get the point.

For me I see no downside in YOU working on yourself because there is a benefit to that.

As some point you need to reasses the situation and make decesions.

I would like to add a little gray area for you though. You are thinking in a black and white.

There is a time possibly that you detatch from him. I don't know if that is where you need to be now but that is a possibility.

SL-
No, I think that he is purposely holding back to punish you. Seriously. My STBXH would to that to me, when we were "working things out" because he did not want to 'slip' into coming back with me... he was so afraid that he would get 'hurt'. At least this is what he told me.

BUT... this is going to sound horrible, but I think that this is true:
He did not want to have feelings for ME, so that he would not be betraying OW. He did not want to acknowledge that WE really DID have something before, and could again.

Maybe I am wrong, but I am thinking that he is protecting his love for OW, but not allowing himself to be close to you. He is going to say, "well, I tried, it just wasn't working." Plain and simple. He knows that SF is vital to a M. That is why he is withholding it.

I think that if you want to give it more time, that is fine. But, if he does not change his ways, I would give him his packing bags, and don't look back. YOU did an amazing job at improving yourself, and your M. YOU can NEVER look back and say, "If only I had tried more..." You will KNOW that you did.

M is not just about the kids. Sure, it is one [email]D@MN[/email] great reason to work things out. But, in the end, it is a R between two people that LOVE, HONOR, and RESPECT each other. Just think, if DS was grown, and moved on, you would need to have a reason to stay together. DS cannot be the ONLY reason.

I know that YOU have a million reasons to stay. But I think that your H needs to also have more than ONE reason (your son) to stay. Or the M will not be happy.

You know that you can make it on your own. You know that you can continue to improve yourself. You know that you are a great woman. So don't settle for him, and his treatment, if he is going to give YOU nothing in return.

JMHO. I am all for giving it more time, IF he starts to be more open with you, and tries to be more close to you. But, I think that you need to have a mental time limit of how much of his standoffishness are you going to take. Don't throw out an ultimatum. Just keep it in your head. And keep trying to reach out to him.

And, use BOB if you have to! LOL!

Ah, Sadmo,

your thoughts are not falling on deaf ears. I have a limit in mind, in my head, it's not static, but I have an idea of what I need to see.

Yes, the thought of breaking up my son's family does keep me there (or keep him from getting the boot), but I am resolved to have a happy M, and nothing less.

These things do take time, so I must be patient. I will not tolerate poor treatment, and I really do not. I tolerate his LACK of treatment right now.

Again, in his way, he does things for me. I honestly tell him that. WHAT he does, however, is not what I need most, and he knows that too. I can't change my needs to suit what he is willing to give; that is sacrificial, and I am NO MARTYR.

When I reach for him, he is there, but it is more often than not like hugging a stuffed toy. Last night, we were talking in the kitchen, it was nice, easy going . I walked up and hugged him, and he reciprocated--this time a bit more than usual, actually rubbing my back a tiny bit, like he used to. Not much to go on there.

Frog,

I am working very hard on detaching. In our case, it is a necessary component to me being able to make sound decisions. I cannot get tangled up in emotion over what he does and doesn't do. I have to be clear, and that requires disentangling myself from him. I did a good job of this earlier this year, after our false recovery, when I re-entered Plan B.

For me, right now, my FEAR is that I will detach and not give a rat's patoot what happens between us anymore. Sometimes I do live in paranoia, wondering if he's playin me. Truth is, he may be, who knows, to, I dunno, try to keep HIS house or get better visitation, or force me to slip up so he can kick me out and keep the house. All of the paranoia is centered around his want of his house.

All along, over the past two years, HIS house topped the bill in reasons for coming home, or when dealing with the lawyers. He even mentioned it in his email about wanting his family back. It's just a suspicious comment. I have been open about not trusting him and about my thoughts on the house. No answers from him on the subject.

He may very well be harboring his feelings for OW. Not my issue, it is his, and will only land us in D court. He knows that this recovery rests in his decisions. HE is acutely aware. I am not making threats, just stating my boundaries. I won't tolerate OW in our M, I won't live in a loveless M.

I'm not angry in the least here, either. I'm just being honest.

As for working on me, that will be ongoing, regardless of PWC. I am ME, and only have myself to blame if I don't live a happy life, so I must find better ways of dealing with conflict and opening up to others. I recognize that my work is not done, and never will be.

I'm not sure that I feel up to continuing to try to PLEASE someone who won't or can't be pleased by me. (interestingly, this is exactly what Jennifer said could happen over these two months of me continuing to try--that I may become disenchanted--she said it's not a lost cause, even then, but PWC will have to join in at that time or....)