Thanks Foxy lass! I could use all the thoughts and prayers y'all can muster.

YES!!!!


I would too. But I would give the ENQ a priority over dressing up or housecleaning naked HOPING to fill an EN that may not be an EN.

IF there has been contact, withdrawl needs to set in for SL's deposits to be recognized.

For me it is hard to continually advocate anything more then self improvement on SL's part.

Speak YOUR TRUTH.

Make it CLEAR and DEFINITE about what you need to TRUST that he is NO LONGER in CONTACT.

I'm sorry we didn't talk to you about this BEFORE.

So, NO..not SUPPOSED TRANSPARENCY..REAL TRANSPARENCY...

Access to ALL of his E-MAILs, CELLPHONE or whatever...

It's so FUNNY almost. One of my H's FEMALE colleagues, always is making cracks to him about, I know, MY NAME, is reading ALL of your E-MAILS, did you get such and such information? We don't live a life like I am checking. WE LIVE OPEN. It's a part of life. What we HAVE TO DO since we've HAD CANCER....Make sense? Talk to him about the importance of this..DON'T BACK DOWN FROM THIS...

A CONVERSATION..IN THE NOW...

FEAR is leading you to think about THE FUTURE..PLAN B or PLAN D...

Stick with the NOW and come back and talk to us...

We're HERE...

For me it is hard to continually advocate anything more then self improvement on SL's part.

I have committed to myself, that I will do what is best for me and work on myself, REGARDLESS of anything else in my life. I need it, I now WANT it. Since Mimi and BR have been talking to me, and I have been reading and changing, I feel more solid, less afraid,and I need to continue in that vain.

Mimi has been advising me about my M, believing the NC has been in place since May. She is advising me based on what she has been told. I know that she will also advise me based on any NEW information.

Frog, you have also been really tuned to me, and for that, I am grateful. I will continue to 'fix' me. I happily do it.

REgardless of what PWC says, I believe that he has regressed, instead of moving forward. Even if he truly has not had contact, he's got some serious decisions to make. This has gone on a long time now.

Frog,

You and I are on the same page....basically..

But FEELING SEXUALLY FREE is part of SL's SELF-IMPROVEMENT...if he REJECTS her, it's HIS PROBLEM, IMO...what a LOSS...

But now I'm looking at it differently, I think he's either IN CONTACT or has had recent contact. I was reading in SAA today and Harley says on and off again contact makes WITHDRAWAL even harder...

SL, present it so that you are willing to work with him on this as a TEAM. "PWC, what are you willing to do for the sake of OUR MARRIAGE?"

Mimi, you are right! I actually have no problem having this discussion with him. I'm finished with being afraid of hearing what he has to say. Let's be for real here, he's done some serious damage already. What more can he do? Have an affair? Okay, we've been there, he knows what that means, I know what that means.

Even without contact, if it hasn't happened, he's got some decisions to make.

My truth, right now, is we are not in recovery. We are in limbo, and that isn't gonna cut it. It's time for him to make the hard decisions and do the hard things.

I'm not saying he's gotta be some whipping boy, but he's going to have to find a way to get over Aimless, or cun (OW#1), or whoever or whatever it is this time. If that means that he needs to leave his job, for memories of her linger there, then he needs to do that, WHATEVER he needs to do needs to be put out on the table and POJA needs to begin.

WONDERFUL, SL!!! YOU'RE THERE!! YOU'VE GOT IT!! NO FEAR!!

Mimi, maybe *I* hadn't hit bottom yet.

I certainly have now.

I look at it like this, if PWC is not the man, he's not the man. HE is not allowed to keep me in suspended animation while he ponders this, like it's philosophy or ethics. You are who you are. You came home to be happy, YOU WANT to BE HAPPY here. Let's do that!

Now, how do YOU think we can do that? This is how I think we can do that. Now, what meshes and what doesn't.

I don't want to hear I"M trying, too vague. HOW are you ACTIVELY trying to fix our M? Okay, can we agree on whether that is working or not? Yes/No. Okay, let's figure it out. Let's stop keeping quiet.

And to elaborate on one point. I have heard PWC say, a NUMBER of times, that he may not be the man that *I* need him to be. I don't think that's his decision to make. I haven't been given NEARLY enough information to say he's NOT the man.

Now, if we POJA and say this is how to do this recovery, adn THEN he CAN'T do it, then he's not the man.

PWC's response to my question about contact, was the one that he already told me about. He said he can't recall what date, but it was early June, on month after he came home. He told me about this one when I asked before.

According o this there has been NC since early June. Which does put us at Dec for the 6 month weaning, or rather, waning.

So, with that in mind, we need to find a way to jumpstart a better recovery, BOTH OF US.

Wayzilla said that exact thing several times through Plan A and during her 21 days of NC. The last time she said it was the night NC was broken. That is a very foggy statement to me that screams of resistance to recovery.

But can he, and does he want to be? That's the question. He certainly *isn't* the man you need him to be right now.

Maybe that's a response. "No, you aren't that man right now. What do you propose to do about it?"

No thank you!!! I learn so much from you.

From my reading she is free that wasn't the problem. The problem was no SF from PWC no matter how free she was. Any more free she may get arrested.LOL

AND recovery won't REALLY start until withdrawal is over.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. It is an admission he needs to improve!!! Next is the challenge of improving. He can use this to improve or give up.
No matter what I will never be enough so why invest.

I'm happily 4 years out in Recovery..but I did some digging back in my MEMORY...

AHHH, I now recall that "you deserve more", "I'm not the man for you" part of THE SCRIPT...

YEP, my H said it, too..

For him it was about wanting ME to GIVE UP on the marriage..so that he could walk away relieved of GUILT...

SOOOOO...you are right, SL..he does not get to make the choice for YOU...

If he leaves the marriage, doesn't work on RECOVERY, make it so it's a DECISION that HE HAS MADE...

Put it on him that HE is MAKING the CHOICE not to WORK ON THE MARRIAGE...

Let him know that you BELIEVE that you can WORK on YOUR MARRIAGE..TOGETHER...if HE, CHOOSES to DO SO....

MB is a BEHAVIORAL SYSTEM or whatever..the belief is that LOVE IS NOT MAGICAL..it is WORKED ON by making LOVE DEPOSITS..which he will not allow you to make...he has to OPEN himself up to YOU...by participating in RECOVERY...

Self defeatist thinking. I get it, I've done it, however rarely.

And again, he's making MY decision for ME. What is enough right now is a taller order, yes, but not something that can't be attained with some work.

Come on, let's look at the whole picture. Since he's come home, I have done a lot of self improvement. I was also making more attempts to become more healthy, changing eating habits and working out. I have been sidelined by injury for now, at least in terms of weight lifting, but now I'm dieting to drop those pesky pounds.

On top of that, I'm working on SEEING what PWC does and recognizing him, admiring him. I tried seducing him, I've tried huggin and kissin, and making dates and being open and honest. I'm cooking more often and getting back into a cleaning regimen around the house. I have gone back to eight hour days, by getting to work earlier, to help us financially. I think I've covered a lot of EN's here.

Now, if you were to ask me how I see PWC in all of this. I see him WAITING to see things change. Yes, he answers my questions, yes he calls on his way home from work, nothing more than that, what I deem the MINIMUM. Yes, he does his own laundry and parents his DS. *I* kiss him when he comes and goes, *I* make the intimacy efforts, by posing the questions and dealing with whatever answers I receive with GRACE, seriously, I'm doing very well with that.

In the end, how quickly do you believe his goal of 'being happy here' is going to happen? I would rather have a clearer approach than WAITING and HOPING. Neither of those are ACTIONS, are they?

Continued FOGGY THINKING...

He wants to say to himself: "I'm leaving 'cause it's BEST FOR SL, I'm not the man for her...at least, I tried...(VIOLINS PLAYING FOR THE GOOD GUY)....

EXCUSE ME, WHILE I GAG FOR A MOMENT...

The TRUTH IS: "I'm ABANDONING my wife and child, my family, to pursue the SINGLE LIFE"...

EGG ZAC LEE

(Makes you miss Pep, don't it.)

I haven't let him OFF THE HOOK yet. I don't have a different answer for this than I did the last time he said it, "You can't KNOW that.". Only I know what kind of man I need. I don't expect to make that decision about him right now, as he is. I expect that decision to come when I feel he's not so ALIEN. If he still contends THEN that he can't be who I need, and I agree then I'll say, "Yup, you are correct."

Contact in June is enough for him to BE UNHAPPY..and there's probably been more...

NO CONTACT FOR LIFE...this has to be NON-NEGOTIABLE...

Your task: How will this MOST DEFINITELY BE ACCOMPLISHED..OR NOT...

At least, my H finally DID GET THIS..I think HE HAS TO GET THIS...

NO CONTACT FOR LIFE...ANY CONTACT WHATSOEVER STARTS THE WITHDRAWAL PROCESS ALL OVER AGAIN...

I know this from personal experience after my contacts with him during PLAN B...the contact definitely starts WITHDRAWAL all over again...

Express YOUR BELIEF that he CAN BE the MAN YOU NEED..IF he commits to WORKING ON RECOVERY..and in order to do that YOU GUYS need to come up with a PLAN FOR NO CONTACT for LIFE....