happily , I have completely lost focus about what this thread is supposed to do ....

la la la

cake or death? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /><~~~ if you don't understand this, you don't know British humour

Adding to your THREAD CONFUSION.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Marie Antoinette was quite a GODDESS wasn't she????

She didn't REALLY say "Let them eat cake" but she DIED at the GUILLOTINE anyways... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yup.

Besides that uncomfortable aura, there's also my strong conviction that Mimi's advice, if it could come through loud and clear, rather than watered down with dissenting views, the Plan B'er in question would be doing much better.

I was very Mimi in my approach to saving my marriage, and mine is intact and stronger than ever.

ditto M4L

Dissenting views... heaven forbid a difference of opinion on how to approach things. As far as the male/female comment... I would never say listen to me and not someone else...that is just an odd comment based on no fact at all. Last I checked...Pep is a woman...I assume the vast majority of other posters to her thread are women too... I find myself in agreement with them the vast majority of the time. In fact, when I give people references as to who they should turn to in times of crisis here... the vast majority of the posters are women.
There are some things that are said that I feel need to be watered down.... some things that are said on here at times that I think are making it more likely that a divorce will happen.
Frankly, I do not feel the need to defend that or justify my right to say so to anyone here...I do what I think is right for the poster at the time.... I do what I think is right based on my take of Plan A & Plan B in the situation being discussed. I do not, and have never been convinced that a cookie cutter way of doing things is the way to go. And I will say again, if it was, the success rate for this program would be off the charts... not just merely better than other approaches out there.
Based on the responses I get...some find a lof of benefit in what I offer... others none. I am okay with that.
As far as my not responding to Mimi...she started this thread with words that made it quite clear that she had no desire to have a discussion. I have merely decided that it was not important to challenge those statements. Mimi's words ring true to me most of the time... her delivery bugs me thats all. I have my delivery questioned frequently here...as does ML and others that are to the point. I have learned that everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if they are wrong... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Anyway... back to the kids.... it's a movie day as we are getting hammered by rain.

MEDC

To LA:



I winced because I was being DISHONEST. I did CARE. I did feel ATTACKED. I felt it wasn't FAIR. I don't like that about myself. I WANT to stop expecting everyone to PLAY NICE and to BE FAIR. Part of my ACCEPTANCE WORK..IT IS THE WAY IT IS...NOT THE WAY I WANT IT TO BE...



SO..YEP!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



GOOD QUESTION, LA!! I've been struggling with this lately. That's why I tried to stop myself here. I'M TOO OPEN..I tend to start sharing with people whom I now REALIZE don't even care to know about ME. I find myself OPENING UP and they aren't really LISTENING. In the past, I used to experience this as REJECTION. These days I don't want to WASTE MY ENERGY in GIVING OF MY WONDERFUL SELF to those who are not interested in knowing me.



Yeah..all of this... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know that I've stopped LYING TO MYSELF and others. To me, lots of people do not seem to be ready for my REALNESS, OPENNESS AND HONESTY...about myself and my feelings...TOO MUCH WORK...as you say...

Gotta go..BACK LATER...

This IS all about ME, ME, ME..not pointing fingers at MEDC..OK, MEDC? I'm using this to work on MY OWN STUFF...

I "EXPERIENCE" MEDC as being "mean" to me. "MEANNESS" is OLD STUFF for me...the PTSD stuff....the stuff that I FIGHT OR FLEE..OLD STUFF: You're mean if you don't like me 'cause I'm so loveable and likeable..everybody SHOULD like me, don't cha know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />; I'll do anything to keep you from being "MEAN" to me, Daddy..and, of course, that doesn't work for a CHILD talking to a DRUNK PARENT..OUCH, that hurts inside/inner child, you know...

I'm still in the PROCESS of LEARNING what to do about that TRIGGER and the WINCE is my continued UNEASE...

I know alot of it is about ME...

I'm staying in the RING..not FLEEING..not FIGHTING..continuing to find my way OUT HERE...

But I'm remaining..PEACEFUL, CONTENT AND HAPPY... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And the absolute worse, which of course MEDC could not know, is to even imply that this CHILD OF NARCISSISTIC PARENTS IS SELFISH...I ABHOR SELFISHNESS..

INNER CHILD STUFF YESTERDAY, FOR SURE....

Mimi... I don't mean to be mean... I know I can be very blunt sometimes... but I never intend to be mean (well, maybe sometimes to a WS that refuses to tell their BS what they are doing... I hate people that keep others in the dark... yep, hate!). I am genuinely sorry for hurting your feelings. I need to take into account my audience when saying things... I know you are sensitive and should take that into account with my words.

MEDC

In posting today, MEDC, I realized that it's mostly MY JUNK.

I know you mean well.

I soo ADMIRE you in adopting that little girl.

HOW LOVING AND NOBLE!!

Thanks Mimi.... and thanks for offering up the stuff you are dealing with... but I still can be more sensitive and own those things that come out of my mouth.

This thread makes me think: GRACE...These exchanges have been nice to read...Thanks for letting us all see this...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Mimi,

You got right to the center of it, didn't you? Big wow from me.

I do understand the disapproval unease...that wince...you know I do. By 16 I had identified, "If they like me, they won't kill me" and thought that was a life truth. I'm right there with you...and today, you helped me to realize that's where my DJs truly started...not at 16...much earlier...the control freak in me to save me...

Same reasons.

This is growth work. This wasn't something bad you did...God intended it for good. You caught yourself being dishonest to yourself...you know where you were inside when you did...you remembered the old payoffs...your old choices..and another signal said, "This isn't who you really are. You never were."

Nothing you share is wasted, Mimi. That's an old judgment...creeping in...not true. We cannot waste ourselves on others...because we weren't sharing to get them to love us in the first place. We shared because that's our goal, our intent. Take what one needs and leave the rest.

All we mind is our sharing. And when you share more, you connect more...even in conflict. No more smoothing the day...which touches your fairness...when everything IS fair already...due to God's design of us...what we do to others, we do to ourselves.

What we do not do to others, we do not do to ourselves.

Presumption kills our connection with others and with ourselves. We aren't here to aid perfectly...nor are we here to make our lives or others' perfect. We're here with our selves...and we're growing.

What did you feel right after you said what you felt? This is what I feel. This is what's going on in me....? Seems to me you got your balance back...got to that crucial word "mean" which plagued you for a long time...you faced it, held it and knew what it meant to you.

And because you did, I did...and I will again. I see your choice to make this thread as an act of love for you...fearful and brave. Thank you for helping me again.

Whenever I hear in my thoughts, "I don't care" I catch myself...because what it really means to me is, "I don't want to care."

Very different truths.

And as to a man taking authority on a thread...I perceive it differently--it's the authority, not the gender. When we've experienced alcohol in our parents...we most likely have experienced a dominant parent...could be the drunk, could be the sober...my case, the sober, which was my mother. What I react to is the authority--telling other posters they are wrong to share, to advise, or in what way.

That's my knee-jerk...where I go...and I choose to see the person being advised as fully capable, aware and able to choose their course...because they do. Equality isn't a concept when you make it an action.

Unease from imbalance...not bad or wrong. Mimi...we only change when we feel pain...it's a signal, not a sentence...

I appreciate you getting your signals...tracing them back...finding where you really were in your head when it hurt...instead of presuming it was right now. I can't yet see in being too open...and I'm sure my pain signals will teach me balance...I'm not there yet. Doesn't mean I'm right, 'k?

I think of you not making this thread and I consider that would have been a loss. Something to grieve.

Thank you.

LA

In my belief, God certainly DIRECTED me to MBer's and KEEPS ME here. Folks here continually ENRICH ME AND MY LIFE. Yes, there is GRACE in the midst of this...Part of my life's joy is to give back portions of what I have been GIVEN and keep getting from you MB'ers ANGELS...

BIG WOW BACK AT YOU, LA!!!



THE BIG LIES THAT WE LEARNED...Ok, I won't speak for you ..but I LEARNED...THE LIES: I HAVE THE POWER TO CONTROL (the thoughts, feelings, actions of other) PEOPLE AND THAT IS THE KEY TO MY SALVATION.

There I am/was staring in the FACE OF MEANNESS. As you and Pep may recall the OLD RESPONSE was FEAR.....then FIGHT or FLIGHT.

Today..a la THIS THREAD..I can come out into the ring. I can FACE what I "perceive" and "experience" as MEANNESS and DEAL with it.

But GROWTH such as this is CHALLENGING and makes me feel VULNERABLE almost standing there NAKED so I say to myself: "I DON'T CARE" (meaning, "I'm not too sure I want to do this".

Thanks, LA, for helping me to see that this takes COURAGE and that I should continue to move forward despite my FEAR and ANXIETY which comes from CHOOSING not to resort to my OLD DEFENSES of CONTROL or AVOIDANCE.



SO..YES, YES, YES!!!! It would be so much EASIER "not to care" but that would be another form of FLIGHT.



Yep, THE MEAN DRUNK SCENARIO played out again...and a child has no other option than to try to do it HIS WAY which is NEVER RIGHT...what excuse would he then have to DRINK.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (this is not about you, MEDC)....DING, DING, DING: ACOA STUFF...YUCK...Will I ever be through with THIS JUNK????



SO TRUE!! I'm so thankful for the OPPORTUNITY to keep growing and growing and CHANGING....

And in reference to MBing...I want to share with you guys how well my H and I now DO CONFLICT. We can SIT or STAND right there and DEAL WITH EACH OTHER without raised voices, looking into each other's eyes, speaking OUR TRUTHS..with OPENNESS AND HONESTY..TRULY AMAZING AND WONDERFUL!!!!

Mimi,

"But GROWTH such as this is CHALLENGING and makes me feel VULNERABLE almost standing there NAKED so I say to myself: "I DON'T CARE" (meaning, "I'm not too sure I want to do this"."

Mimi...I believe you're ready...I believe you're ready to know that you are vulnerable 24/7...you were made whole and complete and vulnerable. We are. We are fleshy humans...mirrors our emotional, spiritual and mental state...armor, feeling impervious, etc. is fantasy. Reality is, we can touch and be touched...pierced and piercing...we are vulnerable. Our inner child struggles constantly to make that truth change.

Because when we were bullied, dominated and defined...once upon a time...we believed that being the bully, the one in control, was our salvation...and now, time for us to know fully and well, it was not. That our bullies were as vulnerable as we were...and that's not how we want to connect...we want to connect even when vulnerable (and we always are)...just as you and your DH are doing now...and have been...

You do it by staying present...owning your half of the connection, sharing your perception and perspective and listening to his...and you mirrored that here...go for fully clarity..."I feel" "I believe" you know those...all of them...they aren't just for our safest place (our partners)...they really are for our lives. God's there for your expansion.

And you discovered an expectation...that you will just grow out of a lot of old stuff...where does that come from? A parent telling you to not feel what you feel and grow up already? Do you really wanna tell that to yourself? Because you have life poles...up that spiral staircase...gonna look the same...it's the same pole...and yet, if you see it in context of the view, you're coming at it new.

Up to you to tell yourself the truth...not the same...sure experiencing like it is...it's not. Which is why sharing, over and over, is necessary...you're going up steps...you're different...your perspective is different...unless you choose to reach back and make it the same one it was.

I think you're choosing not to do that.

You're sharing, exploring and owning. And identifying...that not to care is another form of flight...and there's more and more...over time and response to situations...more healing...and more healing.

Finding our really old DJs in our perception...they lurk and hide and continue...and here you are, as I am, ferreting them out...saying this is not what I want anymore...there is no protection from vulnerability...there is no need.

What a way to give back...and you do...and to receive, which can be much harder, is for me...and you're doing it, anyway.

LA

Soooo Scary out here without THE ARMOR...

I now feel FREE...

I'm PEACEFUL, HAPPY AND CONTENT NOW..but the COST is the VULNERABILITY..THE NAKEDNESS...

I"ve learned, though, that I have to come out to find out who I really am...

Make sense, LA?

There's NO GROWTH in SAFETY AND ARMOR....

Mimi,

Yes, you make sense. It is scary...until you realize, there was no real armor...it was fantasy. You feel free because you embraced your power and limits...you own your life...which is what was inside out in childhood...we owned the blame, not our lives.

Yet, we did and do.

You are continually, unyielding safe in God's hands, 24/7...no armor...not real. God's real. And yes, you're rediscovering who you really are, made from love...you are love...so you're whacking away at the overgrown vines of self-image...which you created to be the peacemaker, the soother, the fixer as a child...to earn love. When you already WERE love and didn't know it.

Discovery...there is no cost, Mimi. Not really. Going from fantasy to reality...no price to pay...it's a free trip...can certainly feel expensive.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There isn't growth in fantasy...only reality. You got it. Sure seemed scary for decades...no wonder...it was...and you lived, survived and thrived, anyway.

That's how I read your sigline.

LA

God brought us together, LA.

I TRULY LOVE YOU.

As I said yesterday to BR, the words THANK YOU are not ENOUGH...

I have this image of us as TWO LITTLE ANGELS..RUNNING FREE..saying WHEEEE......FREE AT LAST!!!

Here you go, IHC...

Check out the last few posts between LA and I...

Mimi,

One thing that I have always believed in is there is no armor. All things that can/will hurt you, Can/Will hurt you. It's what we do in the face of adversity, what we learn, how we grow, that helps us survive. Some people attempt to use armor to keep others at arms length, too. I have seen many do it. My best GF came to me early on in a R and said that she loved her boyfriend, but was afraid to tell him. I asked "Why?". She was worried that he wouldn't say it back. I said, "Well, you feel it, it's YOUR feeling, not his, so you can say it all you want." "If you don't say it, you still feel it, so where's the sense in that?"

What I'm learning now is to let go, no control over anyone else, not even my DS. I can guide him and help him learn, but I cannot control him. Control was a big one for me.

Oh, and Mimi, I love you too. You have helped so many, including me, for so long. You are a kind soul, and I have been most fortunate to come to MB forum and be advised by you.