Crossroads, if there is anyone else to expose to get it done.

All of this CRAP is normal response of WS to exposure.

Now, if your WW is stating that she WILL be resuming the A, you need to get thee to a lawyer.

DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING FOR HER, NOTHING, NADA. She is not doing anything good for those kids, taking off on weekend getaways, leaving her children behind in AGONY. YOU SIGN NOTHING. She is NUTS, Got it! Nuts! She is nowhere even remotely in the vicinity of her right mind. You must be the SANE one now. No more talking about the R right now.

Set forth in asking about the NC letter, about openness, etc. If she will not get on board, then you must get her to leave the home.

Go legal on her, NOW! Don't wait, get an LSA, if possible, if not, at least get legal counsel and find out what your options are. Document every time that she leaves to be with OM. Document how much time she spends at home with the children, etc. Document each shove, kick, hit, scratch any abuse.

Riding the storm out is not about dropping the oars or wheel, you drive that boat straight into this wave; don't turn and try to get away. DO NOT LISTEN to these words, they are mostly lies and justifications coming from a place of entitlement. You did not force motherhood on this woman, she CHOSE it. SHE CHOSE HER EXISTENCE TO BE SUCH THAT IT IS. Do not give in to a bully.

She is putting your children at risk for emotional/mental issues, NOT YOU. Don't you sign a [email]d@mned[/email] thing.

This is not so much a 2x4 as a fan to blow your own fog away. Don't you get swayed by her tears right now. If she decides to work on the M, and only after that, you can work on how to get past the problems that you both have had, until then, you are just talking to a wall. She is in her own bubble, and it is not up to you to pop it.

Crossroads,

Several things about your post (4/24 at 2:39pm)are of grave concern to me. Let's go over them one by one.

Physical Fighting I'm sure that as a man, you are aware that if you lay your hands on your wife--even to restrain her from hitting you--that she has reason then to call the police for domestic violence. If she becomes physical with you, DO NOT RESTRAIN HER!! Tell her to stop--walk to another room--and if she pursues you into another room, tell her you will call the police and go to a different room--and if she pursues you there, call the police yourself. I do not say this to be mean or vindictive, but to save you hiney. If you restrain her, and she calls the police for DV against you, she can then file for a temporary restraining order, have you kicked from your home with the shirt on your back, and you WILL lose your house and kids. DO NOT RESTRAIN HER!!!! If she hits or kicks or punches you, take photos of YOUR injuries, let her know you will not tolerate physical violence and will call the police--but under no circumstances do you lay a FINGER on her, not even to defend yourself or else YOU will be taken away to jail!!

By the way, I am dead serious about this.

Regarding Exposure I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but she is still getting phone calls from the OM so she has not broken up with him--she is not willing to or interested in NC--and they are not over. When SHE has honestly broken up with him, she will not take his calls, she will change her cell phone #, and she will send a NC letter and allow you to "check" on her. UNLESS and UNTIL you see that kind of behavior, she is still having her A and they have just been driven further underground. Sooooo...since that is the case, continue to expose. You have done EXCEEDINGLY well exposing to your parents, her parents, and his father. GOOD JOB. Now follow up with exposure to anyone who could be your ally: her pastor/priest, employers (hers-if she's using company time or resources; his-if he's talking to her on company time or using company flights, etc.), friends who will support your marriage, neighbors...most anybody whom you think will help you help HER to see that it is a smart, moral thing to return to her marriage and CREATE the love that she wants to feel.

Regarding the A Well...as I said above, I do not believe the A is really over. The "heartfelt email" I think was just an attempt to throw other folks off the scent of her true intentions. In fact, it may be wise for you to follow up with her parents and your parents and let them know that her "heartfelt email" was sent with the intention of getting you to be her "friend" and cooperate, so she can divorce you and be with the OM.

Let me give you a little clue that will be helpful. When a WS is really repentant of what they've done, here's how it looks. They are WILLING to lose some of their "privacy" because they realize that they blew it...and now they have to have their life be all out in the wide open. They will willingly turn over their cell phone bills, their email accounts and passwords, and their schedule so the BS can "check up" on them. The WS will also do IC or whatever self-work and self-growth is needed without the BS "reminding" or "helping" them do the work. Now, remember when YOU were the WS and you were sincerely sorry? Yeah--I know you had guilt and you pretty much swept it under the rug (tsk tsk!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)--but you made CHANGES didn't you? You let her see your phone, email, or whatever so she could SEE FOR HERSELF that you meant business. You felt sad and empty while you missed your EA-OP, but you also pretty much knew that your own decisions had brought this on yourself.

Sooooo...as I said up above, UNLESS and UNTIL you see behavior like that, the A is continuing. Especially if you see the "fog talk" continuing...the blaming...and the justifying. Crossroad, bear this in mind. She can and will say ANYTHING so that she can continue her addiction...she will apologize, she will say it's over, she will say she wants to "work things out" or "clear her head"--or she will say the most hateful, vicious, spiteful things you have ever heard...stuff so mean it will make your head snap from whirling around so fast! Try not to listen to it or take any of it to heart (easier said than done, I know). It is what we here at MB call FOG BABBLE. Imagine hearing what Charlie Brown's teacher says, "Wah wah wah, wah wah, wah wah." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Finally

Regarding the kids She wants to continue her A and have the kids and your money too. She basically wants to pretend that she can make YOU disappear and put OM in your place. But, that is part of her FANTASY, Crossroads, and it's not reality. In reality, choosing OM is going to cost her and cost her DEARLY. She will lose her relationship with her parents--or at least strain it. She will lose her home and your financial and emotional support. She will lose AT LEAST half her time with her children if not MORE!! And she is basically asking you, "Will you please sign a paper that says choosing this A is not going to cost me the time with the kids?" Crossroads, that is a NATURAL CONSEQUENCE of her choice!!! You are not being mean, demanding or controlling by allowing her to experience the natural consequences of her own choice. She gets to choose: have ALL her time with the kids like she does now--or the OM. She can NOT have both!! Sooooo...don't you sign anything. It's probably best to reply to that request something along this line: "WW, I do promise to always do what is in the best interests of our children. I would like them to have a relationship with their mom in a stable home where they have both their own mother and their own father at home to love them. If you are going to make personal choices to make that impossible, I will keep their best interests at heart and not allow myself to be swayed by immorality or blame." Okay--maybe I was a little "CRANKY" there at the end! :angry:

Stay the course, Crossroads. You are doing a good job, and I know this is HEARTBREAKINGLY hard. Keep it up!!! Come here to cry or vent or ask questions or whatever, but you keep it up!! Be the lighthouse for her fog, so she can find her way home and back to you.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

CR, you got great advice from silentlucidity and CJ. You must stay the course. What has happened here is alot of smoke and mirrors and demands that you continue to protect her affair. Do NOT allow her to scare you off the battle field.

You have the affair on the ropes and you cannot, for your childrens sake, afford to let her up just becuase she is screaming. LET HER SCREAM. Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it can't survive this affair. So keep your eye focused on the GOAL here and don't allow all this SHOCK AND AWE to divert you.

Let's get back to the task at hand here. Continue your exposures. CALL THE OM at work tomorrow and discuss this with him. She is terrified that you will speak to him. There is a reason for this. Continue to call until that little filthy little worm takes your call.

You might even make a call to his employer when you are done. Make it as difficult as possible for him to destroy your family.

Your next steps are to prepare for Plan B as we discussed before. But, first, calm down and call the OM.

And STOP allowing your W to scare you so badly with her SHOCK AND AWE. You have just snatched the crack pipe from a crack addict and she is might mad. But that is a good thing.

I want to applaud you for refusing to leave your bed. That was the right decision.

CALM DOWN. You are in God's hands, so wipe the smoke out of your eyes and get back to work.

p.s. tell her you aren't interested in signing anything. That is silly.

I second CJ's post and especially the info about your WW hitting and kicking you. You may warn her, but don't touch her. If she continues, CALL THE POLICE. Don't coddle this woman.

Crossroads,

This is the critical juncture for every BS. Because of exposure, you've got this affair on the ropes. It is time to finish it off. You need to fight through the intense emotional pain with the goal in mind of ending this insidious affair and saving your marriage and your family.

Right now your WW feels that she has lost her A. She will go kicking and screaming until withdrawal is over or you cave in - whichever happens first. Everytime she talks about separation and/or divorce, you say, "I don't do divorce, and I will not talk about it with you." This is a battle of wills.

She has said that she will have NC with OM. You need to follow through and enforce it. Delete his cell phone number and contact info. Get software on the computer to block access to chat rooms and other sites where they can meet up. Block his email. Block his phone number. Continue to spy on her an verify NC. Your will needs to be stronger than the addicts will to continue their addiction.

You are in a good position to finish this thing off. She has agreed to end it with OM to convince you it is over between you two. She doesn't want to be the bad guy. As long as you don't throw in the towel and you defend your boundaries, you will win out. It is just going to suck for the next 6-12 months until she gives up the hope of being with OM and gets through withdrawal. Even then recovery takes another year or two. This will be an emotional rollercoaster, but you are winning. Don't be afraid to defend your boundaries. Be strong. Who cares if she says you are controlling her? If not letting your wife have an affair with another man is controlling, then by god, I'm controlling. Just block it out. Make it about you and what you are willing to tolerate. I went through this as well when my exposure got my WW's affair to end. I got through this and you will get through this, too.

I agree with Jim, this is not about being controlling, this is about your boundaries and enforcement. I mean, DUH, let's all get a show of hands who said, "As long as we both shall live, but if another person comes along, hey, all bets are off" (chirp chirp)

Thanks for the comments--both of you have been incredibly valuable assets and I am so extremely thankful for having the counsel of you here, as well as the pep talk and encouragement, because right now I need it.

I have reluctantly adopted the position that I need to begin to document everything and protect myself. I hate that I’m having to do it, but will proceed as such.

The kids: She still is wanting an answer to the question she had and asking that I won’t use them as pawns. I told her I would keep their best interests foremost, no matter what that entailed. I did not lash back at her as I could have, saying that she certainly didn’t have their best interests in heart when she was with OM. I kept it very brief. She then wanted reassurance that I would not use them as weapons. I will not dignify that with a response.

The A: I don’t know what to believe but I do know I don’t believe her or trust her. It’s taken me a long time to just be able to print that, but if I’ve been on an odyssey of my own over the past several months of finally facing things honestly and not BS’ing myself, then I too cannot hide from the truth of what my heart and soul—not to mention, brain—tell me. That she cannot be trusted. She has stated that her motivation for ending the affair is to give her the ability to “resolve” our marriage. In her mind, that means sell the house, divorce, etc. Then she would return to OM. So I am positioning myself for Plan B. I hate to undertake such a scorched earth policy and still don’t know how financially I can make this work at all, but I have to.

Contact/cell phone: As bad luck would have it, WW is the primary account holder on our cell phones, and I don’t have access to her bills unless she allows it. So far she is not willing to do this. Big fight has already ensued this AM because she has refused to answer the question whether she talked to him yesterday or not. I checked her phone this AM and all call records had been erased. His entry in the phone book is gone, but that doesn’t mean anything.

Legal issues: I also realize that my head is swimming and I need to protect myself. This is something I will be pursuing in earnest sooner rather than later. Her tone has become fully defensive, although aggressive.

Thanks again for the pep talk- I’ll try to do more frequent less lengthy updates as possible.

She won’t answer me if she had contact with him.

Says that she gave me her word and that should be enough. This is rich.

I told her I need verification, that until or unless she makes ending the affair fully transparent, trust means nothing. I added that if she had nothing to hide, she’s disclose and asked yes or no, simply, did she talk with him.

I harken back to the days of Ronald Reagan and the Soviets—Trust but verify. In this case, it’s not even trust sadly. It’s destroyed. She of course turned it around on me too that if I hadn’t broken the trust a long time ago, it wouldn’t have gotten to that point.

Faithful wrote the above and it is classic. This is so dead on it "ain't" funny!

Crossroads,

You are doin the do! That is very important. Your own fog is clearing to the point that you can call a spade a spade. When your wife asks if you will use the kids as pawns, what does she mean, will you LIE to them about her A, is that what she means?

I would only say, in this case, that when asked you will not lie, and when confronted with behavioral issues stemming from her coming and going, you will take care of the children and tell the truth. I would tell your wife that you do not plan on telling the children any gorey details, but just where she is going, etc. You need to make her aware that the children, currenlty, ARE PAWNS to HER GAME. You will do whatever you need to ensure the stability of your children, during this most dangerous time in their existence.

Crossroads,

When the excretion hit the oscillator in my former M, I was in the position you are in--needing BOTH incomes in order to pay all the bills. The problem was that WS did not give a hoot and spent his income courting the OW. Thus, I will suggest to you what I did myself.

Make a list of all the bills and whose name they are in. Anything that is a "necessity" get into your name (for example, electricity or heat). This may mean that WW is left with an old electricity bill balance in her name, but it also means that she can not just stop paying the bill and cut off your necessities. Now, bear this in mind...you need electricity and heat to LIVE, you do not need cable, cell phones or internet...and although those are wonderful niceties to have, if the excrement hits the oscillator, you CAN live without them for a while. Depending on your earnings, you MAY want to get your own cell phone -OR- get a Cricket phone or pay-as-you-go phone. Yes they are more expensive, but for right now, it would be what you can afford.

So, you have made a list of your bills...and you have switched necessities into YOUR name. Next, I would look at the mortgage. Is it in your name, her name or both your names? Speak to your lender, because when my WS left, they had an option where I could put up to 3 payments at the end of the mortgage and pay them later. After he was gone, that gave me 3 months to either find a roommate, find more income, or get the house on the market. Either way, often mortgage people have payment options to help people who are "in a spot" to keep their credit rating clean--so call 'em up and explain your situation and ask what options they have for you. When you're informed you can make wise decisions.

Next, as I indicated, once WW is out you can get a temporary roommate--a summer student--or a newly divorced fella who can rent a room from you. If that doesn't work out, you can always sell the house, split the equity with your WW, and move into a place that's big enough for you and the kids that you can afford on your own. I know that's not a GREAT option, but it is sometimes the price of a WS's affair...and in this instance the kids can help you choose a place they like...they can be involved.

Finally, don't be ashamed to get whatever assistance is available to you. For example, apply for food stamps if you're eligible because you will be guaranteed to feed your family and you can use your income in other ways to pay bills etc. Many communities have low income assistance for paying for heat and land-line phone too. So buck up, swallow a little pride, and get the assistance you are eligible for--even if it's just a grocery bag once-a-week from church.

Final "get your ducks in a row" advice...start photocopying all your legal documents. For example, copy birth certificates, mortgage, social security cards, any previous divorce or adoption papers, contracts...etc.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

Perfect. She does not want reassurance that you "won't use them as weapons," she wants reassurance that you won't interfere in her affair.


She IS in contact with him. You can just accept that truth and move forward. I would STRONGLY suggest that you call the OM at work and have a chat with him. She is very afraid of this for some reason. You could also expose this man at work. He is very scared of your calls to his workplace. There is absolutely no reason you can't call him at work.


This is a smart idea. Get your ducks in a row legally, get her moved out and then go into Plan B. That is the BEST STRATEGY in a bad situation.


If she is telling the truth, she would want to prove this by giving you access to her online call record. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. Unless she can prove this to you, you should assume she is lying.

God Bless you, Crossroads.

Crossroads, hopefully you are planning on seeing an attorney about your options. I would find out how you can legally get her out of the house and go into Plan B.

Then once you have a legal seperation agreement in place, you can drag out any legal proceedings while her affair crumbles.

The worst thing you can do is to AGREE to any divorce scheme with her or agree to "be her friend in the best interests of the children." This is a typical ploy that a wayward will pull to get you to cooperate in the destruction of your family WITHOUT COMPLAINT. If she knows that you will be playing hardball and will not allow her to have custody, the house,[or proceeds] etc., then that will slow her down.

For example, it would ideal if you got full custody, possession of the house and an order forcing her to continue to contribute to the household support.

bump for Crossroads

How ya doin'?? Huh???



--CJ

Hey Crossroads, how are you out there?

I really think that ML is dead on with this. Get to that attorney, find out your options. You must execute a plan in order to hang on to the house and children.

bumping again!

BTW, Crossroads, I just wanted to explain something.

When we, here, suggest that you begin legal proceedings, it is not because we want your M to fail or your WW to get angry. We suggest that to you for two reasons:

#1-- It is to protect you and/or your children from unnecessary damage. I know it's hard for you to fathom right now...after all, for so many years your WW has been on your side and sort of considered you and the kids. It is our experience that most usually, a WS does not behave considerately toward their BS or their children and only has their own selfish interests at heart. Thus, we suggest it so YOU will be spared unnecessary additional lose when she blindsides you.

#2-- We suggest it because here is what your WW's fantasy is right now: "I am in LOVE! He is my SOULMATE and he completes me! My kids will be happy for me because I am finally in love! People get divorced all the time--the kids will adjust! Plus, I know that most women get the house and alimony and child support...so I can get rid of my boring old hubby, move my SOULMATE into the house, and I won't even have to work if I don't want to! We will be happy and free and the kids will be fine!!" We suggest legal action because it will ENTIRELY INTERRUPT HER FANTASY with harsh reality. Harsh reality is that the OM is probably/possibly a stalker and will move onto another conquest a few years after he has "captured" her. Harsh reality is that the children WILL be harmed, their respect for their own mother will be irreparably damaged, their relationship with her will be weakened, and their will be YEARS if not lifetime repercussions. Harsh reality is that she stands AT BEST a chance of losing half her time with her children, and will most likely loose both custody and primary placement. Harsh reality is that she will not get alimony and child support...and she will no longer have access to YOUR salary, so OM will have to support her and he will resent it because he hasn't committed to her -OR- she will be forced to drastically change the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed because SHE has to support herself! Harsh reality is that there is a very good likelihood that she will have to leave her family home and her children and move into a cheap apartment.

TRUST ME...when those harsh realities hit her in the face, it does a lot of damage to the "affair fantasy bubble." Suddenly it becomes clear to her that life with the OM will not be "grass greener on the other side of the fence" but actually life with no yard, no money, no kids and ... why did she do this again???

Crossroads, we don't tell you to hurt you or damage your M. We suggest it because it is the quickest way to effectively SAVE your M -and- simultaneously protect you.

It is your decision to make, though, and we do understand how hard it is to begin legal proceedings against someone you love. ((Crossroads)) Give us an update.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

Thanks CJ, and Mel, and SL…

Sorry for the absence, it’s been a heckuva week. I flew to Phoenix last Thursday AM to load up my Mom’s moving truck as she has terminal cancer and is moving here to TX with us, although living separately. I drove back over the weekend and have been immersed in unloading, unpacking, catching up at work, not to mention fully involved in my marriage and the events that have been ongoing. Here’s a quick and dirty recap:

Mixed signals: A good friend of ours has been talking with both of us, and while it’s against my better judgment, as some things have gone “over the fence” to the ears of WW, I’ve also used this as a misdirection opportunity. I am truly happy to have this person to listen and offer advise, cold hard truth and she has been reliable. She also sent both me and WW a copy of the “5 languages of love” book.

Prior to my leaving on this moving trip, we went to dinner as a family Wed PM. I was miserable. We had talked and argued Tues night, I was going on little sleep, and was emotionally a total wreck. I told WW that I didn’t care anymore and that I was done too. I didn’t want to keep fighting, etc, etc. That part was true. But I still feel conflicted in my love for her. She took that as thinking that the “pressure is off.”

So I got back from the moving drive, and WW says she was reading the book, and we had a candid and rational convo about it. Moreover, through the weekend and into Monday, she helped unload the truck (which I didn’t expect her to do, esp since she isn’t really keen on my Mom), and we hung out and it was very relaxed, cordial, fun, easygoing, and I read into all of this that maybe the ice was thawing.

Not true, I found out last night. She says the pressure’s off since I “finally gave in” on the fantasy of reconciliation. So because I didn’t want to give up, it’s uncomfortable and hellish at home, but when I “give up” suddenly we’re friends and all is hunky dorey? I’m confused. This whole thing has yanked me around like a yo-yo and I’m tired of it.

The Affair is not Over: I know she talked to him early last week and I’m certain she talked to him while I was gone. I also know she talked to him on the phone last evening. She also threw out to me that the OM was contemplating moving to our city potentially, because she didn’t want to have a “disruptive” situation for the kids. Yeah, right! Either way, I need to work on unloading the house because neither of us can afford individually. This is the stickiest part of the logistics of this.

Kids are Weapons: She’s scared $hitless about my leveraging the kids against her. She wants to proceed amicably but will play hardball if pushed, she says. Well, I’ve had enough. I told her that I would keep the best interests of them in mind, and she didn’t like the nebulous or indirect ‘threatening’ nature of that statement.

My commitment to action: I’m putting the wheels in motion for a LSA. After that, I’m going Defcon 1 with the launch of Plan B. I’m getting my legal ducks in a row as well, with a pending meeting with a friend/acquaintance who is sitting down for a few drinks but will refer me to someone in his office probably.

On this topic, does anyone have a good reference or source for divorce lawyer referrals? Ie: How the heck do I find the best person for the job? I’ve decided I’m going for FULL custody. And I believe that based on the evidence already at my disposal—including her own emails—I’m further ahead than I might think in this regard. I just have a feeling things will get nasty.

I had a lot of time to think on this road trip, and I do love WW, but just cannot keep going down this road. My friend used the band-aid analogy- do you rip it off fast or slow? What hurts least?

I think it wise of you to get those ducks in a row.

Your wife is not sending mixed signals, she wants the whole cake, both sides of the fence, the happy little triangle.

If OM IS moving into town, make sure that you have it written somewhere that no overnights are to be spent. Also, even if he doesn't move into town, the children are not to leave the state (if you can). Just to be blunt, nail her [censored] to the wall.

Make sure that any lawyer you get has information about how often your WW leaves town to be with OM, leaving children with you.

Once you get all of the legal stuff rolling, PLAN B. In order to commence in Plan B, you will need an intermediary, so find that first. Talk to your intermediary about their role, and about how information needs to be exchanged and filtered. Prepare yourself for early withdrawal. You will want the crumbs so badly that you can taste it; your own addiction must be broken in order for you to be clear.

Mostly, talking to a lawyer will help to get the ball rolling. Make sure you prepare yourself to talk to your kids about the situation as there will be major changes when Plan B goes into affect.

If your wife mentions 'leveraging' the kids or 'amicable' anything, consider mentioning that you do not want this, but you will not be party to breaking up your family. THIS IS HER CHOICE. Also, kids are not leverage, they are children. I would not be amicable about anyone attempting to tear my life up, ANYONE, and to expect that from you is ridiculous, but WS's are ridiculous. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry to hear about your mother.

Thanks Silentlucidity,

Believe me, I think I’m closer to severing the cord than I’ve ever been. And I can look myself in the mirror and say that only because I know it’s not a spur of the moment decision based on emotion and not intellect. For months I’ve tried to get through this, led by example, made infinite attempts to reconcile, to encourage, support, love, and inspire and it’s fallen on deaf ears and blind eyes.

And in talking to our mutual friend who has offered a helpful ear and some straight cold talk as well, she too thinks that WW is just lost in the wilderness. She doesn’t know what she wants, except for OM and for various and not all healthy reasons. And my friend also thinks that WW should seriously get some professional help—she’s avoiding a lot of things in her life that will only grow and cause her to hurt more as she runs from a problem instead of solving it. WW has discarded so many of her relationships over the years—doesn’t keep in touch with old friends, family, etc, heck, isn’t even one to do Christmas cards. I feel anguish for my WW because I see her withdrawing from so much, because, as she claims, she’s not “wired” that way—whether it’s being a mother or otherwise.

And I have chronicled the chronology of her activity as much as possible, although I need to fill in the gaps. It’s been a conglomeration of e-mails to work and personal account, my own Outlook calendar entries, our attempts at marital counseling, my own Plan A extensively documented, so to your point about telling the lawyer, I will be ready completely.

I’m proceeding legally to get things squared away before talking to her about selling the house and so forth. The financial situation is really the trick right now, as it’s the only reasons she is staying right now—as she reminds me of how miserable she is at every juncture. I’m almost chomping at the bit to pull the trigger on Plan B.

On another related note, can anyone advise a good book or resources for approaching divorce with kids?

That is also an element—a very important one—that I want to be prepared in advance for, and not spring it on them. It’s going to be crummy enough as it is.