OK, been reading alot here lately and have been reading of some false recoveries and of advice to "reup" plan A or go Plan B. I am wondering at what point does one consider a Wayward a repeat offender?

I am confused by the almost ignorance of repeat offenders when giving advice to a Betrayed Spouse to Plan A or go Plan B or get counseling....especially when there is OBVIOUS continued unfaithfulness. It bothers me to no end to see Betrayed Spouses getting advice to meet more needs when the WS is continuing to cheat......and is a REPEAT offender. I think I must be the only one here who believes in the ONE SECOND chance method. Waywards are almost given carte blanche freedom to continue cheating based on some advice here.

Is a false recovery NOT really considered a repeat offense because the Wayward is under the umbrella of the initial "addiction" offense? I see time frames of 3-6 months of Plan A followed by TWO YEARS of Plan B?????? In what time frame does a Wayward meet criteria for repeat offender status? If his/her (WS) needs are not met by the BS, does the clock reset? I think there are FAR more repeat offender Waywards here than we publicly acknowledge (or want to acknowlege)....I am confuder when I read on the official site that the affair is driven by needs not being met.....but what about false recoveries and repeat offenses........lets throw some time frames on here, it might be helpful. I have been reading too much again here lately and find myself shaking my head with some advice......gotta relax I guess.

LM

LM,

My WH has been in and out of the house, and this has been going on for 2 years. My DS is suffering. I don't know what to do BUT Plan B at this point.

Are you asking when the BS should be advised to give up, or are you asking what type of a advise to give to the BS dealing with a repeat offender?

There has been some discussion among us Plan Ber's about he fact that NO ONE comments on our sitch's. Well, not nobody, but not many, barring maybe Mimi, believer and FaitfulWifeCJ.

What would you like to say, by all means, say it. Many of us have been looking for opinions, but we get squat. Without guidance directly from the Harleys, we listen to peeps on this forum.

Repeat offender to me means:

2 separate OP's distinct times in the marriage

or

a rekindling with the original OP after the addiction has been broken and full repentence has been accomplished/obtained.

Problem is the full repentence part. That takes MONTHS. It is longer than the mere withdrawal period.

I even think a 2nd OP during withdrawal period (say OM1 dumps WW...and in remorse and defiance she takes up with OM2...to me, OM2 is part of the same wayward addiction mindset and doesn't necessarily make WW a serial cheater).

Not my call on how long someone can take it. If they show up here seeking advice I pretty much presume they want to try. To me...Plan D is a natural result and serious conclusion which a BS pretty much comes to on their own.
Plan A, then Plan B...process them to that point.

Mr. Wondering

Think I gotta agree Lem. If ther were to be a second offence, in light of the pain I went through the first time, I can honestly say that would be the deal breaker for me.

Two years????? Icouldn't do two months, but I'm weak, so do go by my standard. I admire folks who can stick it out that long. I know I don't have that in me. Life would have changed for me forever at that point.

Good to see you back Lem, If it weren't for a few opposing views, this place would be a cult. You lend balance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I feel like my WH had the wayward mindset even when home. He was never anywhere CLOSE to remorseful. He was dumped by OW very suddenly, and just after he left his own family to be with her.

I guess I hear mutterings of people saying things like you've done all you can, you can D now or something similar. On the rare occasion, someone has taken the time to directly address my sitch and the guidance I've always gotten is to stick to Plan B, and that some affairs take 2 years or more to break up.

I, personally, don't think I can go two years in this sh!te, but I can for some time, in the hopes that my son's father will come back to him and be bottomed out enough to also WANT me again.

Right now, not much of what I do has to do with undying love, so much as a want for stability for us all, first, with love and respect.

I think MEDC has a good approach sometimes, albeit harsh, but he calls it like HE sees it. Not necessarily MB, but REAL LIFE. Most of what is taught here is counterintuitive, so i think MANY of us are trying to figure out when to say when.

In my observation most "repeats" via false recovery aren't truly repeats...more like never stopped in the first places.

The conditions or requirements for reconciliation are 100% the BS prerogative and domain.

Usually a BS welcomes a STILL wayward HOPING that they are not because they WANT them to come back.

Chaos and disillusionment ensues.

The problem wasn't a reoffense so much as BS fog and denial.

Noodle, that was what happened with me, more the first time. I had no boundaries, I had not read any books or even known about MB, so, I twisted in the wind.

This time around, I feel much stronger, and more knowledgable BECAUSE I did find MB, and I have worked the Plans.

Noodle, you posted exactly how I feel about WH.

Yeah, lem...take a chill pill! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Heehee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking FOR or asking about, but let me take a stab at this.

It is my understanding that as a "rule of thumb" Dr. Harley recommends that a BH try to Plan A for a max of 6 months...and a BW for 3 months. This is a rule of thumb only, and I think generally means that Plan A should not go on and on for years, but there should be at least a season of consistent effort to demonstrate change and ability to grow to the WS.

Next, it is my understanding that as a "rule of thumb" Dr. Harley thinks that most/the majority of As fizzle out within two years. That is to say, if both WS and BS are relatively mentally and emotionally healthy...if they had a fairly good marriage before the A...if it goes according to the average "textbook", then the A is likely to end within two years. Thus, if a BS has the strength, endurance and patience to wait for 1 1/2 years in Plan B, that mathematically the likelihood is that the A will have ended.

It is my understanding that if the BS or WS is mentally ill or has an addictive personality (drug addiction, alcoholic, etc.) that this skews the likelihood of the A ending. For example, if the WS is also an alcoholic and is not in recovery for his/her alcoholism, then the A may last years or never end at all.

Next, it is my understanding that people can see false recovery two ways. One way to see it is as one, continuing A--that what the BS thought was recovery was actually just driving the same, original A deeper underground and probably making it more of a LTA. The other way to see it is as two, separate and distinct As. In my personal opinion, a person is a serial cheater if that person has different sexual and emotional relationships with several different members of the opposite or same sex. For example, my exH had differing levels of emotional and physical and cyber affairs with several different women: "making out" with some waitresses, having sex with some managers, wining and dining and wooing several OW to take them to a hotel room, some email sex, some cybersex (with cameras), some phone sex, some sex with prostitutes. See?? Several women--several levels of attachment--several As. HE was a serial cheater!!! Now, a WS who has one OP and tells their BS that they want to reconcile but never bothers with NC -- that is all one A (in my mind) and would not particularly qualify as a serial cheater. If there was an A with OW#1 and real NC was established and real recovery entered...and then years later WS hooked up with OW#1 again--I would call THAT serial cheating!!! But that JMHO!!!

Finally and in conclusion, I think you are sort of asking, "When is enough, enough? How long do some of these poor BS's have to hold out hope? This is ridiculous!" Lem, bear in mind that the advice given here is often given by folks who are themselves right in the middle of their own affair drama. Many/most have received no kind of training in counseling or coaching, and many/most have not even yet gotten all the way through their own A and gotten "to the other side" where they are "recovered." Quite often, once someone recovers from the A--either through reconciling or divorcing--they leave this site and live their life! So many/most do not have the wisdom of having seen an A play out over and over and over again. Just take some of the advice you see with a grain of salt!!!

IMHO, if a person goes into Plan B and really detaches from their WS--if they put into effect some basic legal protections and just live their life peacefully--there is no reason that they couldn't wait up to two years (here it comes) IF THE BS WANTED TO. Personally, I think there comes a point at which the BS either recognizes that the WS is not going to do the kind of personal growth that is required to reconcile the marriage (in which case the BS is ready to move on) -OR- the BS begins to personally grow THEMSELVES until the day comes that they are ready to see that it's time to move on (until that day, they aren't ready yet) -OR- the BS begins to see signs of actual change in the WS and is willing to wait and see how that personal growth might work out. Frankly, for some that is a bit of a long-shot (waiting and seeing how it works out) but I personally think that if someone is willing to wait, I don't see that it hurts them to do so--as long as they're practicing healthy detachment!

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...does that answer your question?

Your faithful friend,



CJ

Lem, just to set the record straight, Dr. Harley does not recommend that ANYONE stay in an adulterous marriage. But if they are GOING TO STAY, he gives them recommendations. Dr. Harley has said that HE HIMSELF would DIVORCE JOYCE if she had an affair.

For me, I would never do Plan A or Plan B. If there was a repeat offense, he would be kicked to the curb so fast he wouldn't know what hit him.

Staying in such a marriage and doing these plans is entirely an INDIVIDUAL decision that should be based on that person's level of willingness and endurance. No one is encouraged to stay, but they are supported if they decide to do so.

I have heard on mulitple occassions that Dr. Harley would D his wife if she cheated. Well, it's heresay until that day comes, because I said the same thing. Yes, he's knowledgable on this subject and knows how to ATTEMPT to make it work, but NEVER SAY NEVER.

Now, there really is no right answer, if you ask me. Believe me, my gut tells me to kick this H of mine to the curb and not to look back. I'm embarassed to know him, as he is right now. WH is an embarassment. I struggle with what to do, as not many that I talk with have the same sitch.

OW#1 dropped my WH like hot cake, and went back to her M, didn't speak to him again. HE was still very much Wayward when I gave him an ultimatum to either come home or leave. He came home and we floundered, due to his wayward fueled entitlement. He never committed to anything, we got no help and made no steps to recovery. I kicked him out AGAIN, after 3 months of Plan A (after finding MB). I started a terrible Plan B, my WH wanted to try again in September of '06, so I gave it a try. We went out together here and there, we discussed how we should approach things differntly, get help, etc. HE turned cold and said that he had met someone that he was interested in. I said I'm out, and went to true Plan B with intermediary.

WH sent me a letter stating how he wanted to have a great marriage with me and wanted to talk, so I broke Plan B and talked, and then he SAID he was committed to MB and recovery; his actions did not follow, so back to Plan B.

So many of you think that I should just be done with this? I really am asking. I have heard of many stories where people survived MUCH WORSE than my sitch USING MB; people with multiple A's, children from the A, other addictions, etc. I wonder where we are supposed to draw the line.

Sorry for the long post, but I think about this nearly every day. On one hand, there are people who say that you should do planB, and once you have found peace, then think about things. Well, that doesn't really work, because we have NO idea WHAT to think.

The longer we are on our own, the longer we will drift away from the M. It's natural. I guess it gets confusing when one set of people advocate such and such and another set feels differently.

I also wonder where Lemonman is, as he began the thread and then disappeared. Again, we could all use the support and would love to hear your take on things.

CJ, I think what you are saying is how I view my sitch. I have to decide when to give up. I will be the one to file for D, as I truly believe that WH wants to come home, but doesn't want to deal with the pain, work and disappointment. Much easier for him to move on and see his son now and then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

For the record the above is NOT what occured in our case and is only Mr. W's observations about OTHERS...

I KNOW that if there were to be ANY other offense on my part that that would be IT...FINITO...I respect that and wouldn't expect it to be any other way...

Mine was a lesson hard learned...My boundaries are iron clad now...I'm will not be recidivist, of that I am sure...

Mrs. W

SL, here is the thing about Dr. Harley's claim. [that he makes quite often] Who is in the best postion to know his mind? You or him? You may have changed your mind, but you can't ascribe your OWN actions to HIM. He is the only one who is in a credible position to accurately predict the future, because he knows himself THE BEST. None of us can credibly contradict him, because he knows his mind better than any of us.

Along the same lines, I will state, without hesitation, that if my H had another affair, our marriage would be over. There would be no 3rd chance. I know myself well enough, and better than anyone here, to make that statement with full confidence.

Point taken Melody. Dr. Harley is probably much more healthy spiritually and emotionally than I. I wasn't claiming that I KNEW anyone's mind, just that we say many things, but when the poo hits the fan, we may ACT differently.

Again, the Harley's are much more versed on infidelity. I guess I wonder why Dr. Harley wouldn't attempt to save his M.

Many people just are not interested, SL. Many folks do make a choice to just move on. For me, I lost so much respect for my H when he had his affair, that I fell out of love. I felt nothing but disgust and revulsion so it is really a miracle that I could take him back. I would not be interested in doing it again.

I also know that I don't have the personality for Plan A or Plan B so that would never be an option for me. Dr. Harley must know something similar about himself which is why he so emphatically states that he would divorce Joyce.

Because he and Joyce have all the knowledge and skills of MB, and are dedicated to meeting each others needs.
Their plan does not allow for the vulnerabilities we often let creep into a marriage.

So therefore, having fully implementing the MB program -- Dr. Harley knows that an affair would mean something more than unmet needs and he would be unable to fix that.
He and Joyce live in constant Plan A.

It makes sense. There are times when I just don't want him anymore. The pain outweighs the 'chance' that we could have. It's not just me, either, it's our child, struggling in this, and it is like watching a train wreck in slo-mo. I am fairly sure that I would not to through this if I remarried. My boundaries would be clear from day 1.

I don't think my upbringing helped me much, in the boundaries department.

sl, I don't know if you have boundary issues, I don't know your situation, but I will state that I DO NOT think all folks who try to save their marriages here have boundary issues. Some have GREAT boundaries and bookoo courage and strategically work this plan with great success. It doesn't always work out, but there is no shame in trying! NONE AT ALL!!

And then on the other hand, we always have a handful of professional conflict avoiders who use the plans as an excuse to avoid conflict. They make plan A a way of life. They are the ones who give it a bad name. And we always have a few around here, unfortunately.

I don't see how anyone could survive a long term TRUE Plan A. It's excruciating to do. I have seen some BS's sit in fear in what they claim is Plan A. I usually am one to give them a nudge toward PlanB.

That kind of PlanA is a doormat kind of plan.

Lemmonman,

I guess I may be one of the BS you are talking about. I would say that my WH falls under the catorgory of serial cheater. He had affiars with 2 different women several years apart.

It's funny I always said I would not stay in a M if my H cheated. The n he did and I looked at my kids and all we had built together. Then I said I would never let him put me through this again. Well he cheated again and this time he had SF with her. And here I am still wanting to save my M.

Believe me I thought I would never allow this to happen again. And I'm seriously considering if he is worth risking my heart for again. Even my DD's don't want me to take him back, they just think he would do iy again. I wonder if he does want to come back and I allow it will he think it's a free pass to do this again? And next time I will be older.

If my WH is willing to become the man he was and shows remorse and is willing to do anything to recover his family then I will consider it. I don't see that as happening anytime soon.

Do I still love him... yes but I love the man he was. And only God knows if he is still there. I do pray every night for God to open his eyes, it'll be done in God's time.

Tonight I feel that I deserve no less than a man who loves me and wants to be with me. No more crumbs... that is for the birds. I deserve more... and I hope my WH will become H and step to the plate.

Still

I AGREE WITH THIS!!

I do not consider my H a REPEAT OFFENDER although there was more than one FALSE RECOVERY.

He wasn't ready to end his ONE AFFAIR...because of his ADDICTION..he had not hit his BOTTOM..PLAN B was necessary...

I believe in not judging others..in accepting individual differences..in NOT EXPECTING OTHERS to be like me...

NOT CONSIDERING A DIFFERENCE AS BEING INDICATIVE OF PATHOLOGY!!!