Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
Pio,

I understand exactly what you are going through.

How does someone do something so obviously wrong and yet find him/herself unable or unwilling to apologize?

First, I think there is an issue of taking responsibility for one's actions; something of a major problem in our society today. Instead, a WS will concoct justifications for what occurred. They may go something like this:

"I would never have done this if only you had ____________."

Fill in the blank with "given me the attention I needed," or any of the dozens of rationalizations which, on the face of it, may seem reasonable. They aren't, of course, since there are many other ways to cope with marital problems, real or imagined, without cheating on your spouse.

What makes these rationalizations/excuses so powerful is that they alleviate guilt, transferring it at least partially to the betrayed spouse.

Showing remorse and seeking forgiveness is tantamount to admitting guilt; some people just can't do it. It's a lot tougher than merely blaming the betrayed spouse or the marriage for their infidelity. And the prevailing myths in our society about infidelity are no help -- didn't most of us once believe that the only reason people cheat on the spouses is because they have a bad marriage? Don't we all know differently now that we've experienced it ourselves?

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816
Quote
I think to successfully recover the M (I say think because I am in no position to know for sure), the BS must heal. I believe remorse is an acknowledgment of the BS's feelings and show that the WS will work to protect those feelings in the future. It is hard for me to reconnect when I feel like my WS would take on another affair without giving me a second thought. I'm not saying she is going to or even likely to. I am just saying I don't feel that my WS is making me feel particularly safe.

I think you've realized, at least internally, that these things were never anyone else's responsibility.

The BS heals because they must, not 2 control an outcome. (the result may indeed be a recovered marriage with a remorseful FWS, but it might not).

Remorse would be cool. Looking back, there probably have been more times when my W expressed remorse for what she'd done than I was capable of giving her credit for at the time. But then, like most others asking these questions, further contact was discovered by one means or another, thereby cheapening any prior remorse that may have been expressed.

As far as the possibility that the FWS would take up another affair? Hard 2 know how likely that is in a particular si2ation (unless there's an obvious reason for believing so), particularly in subtle si2ations where:

*the BS struggles with whether it seems likely because they still feel the hurt from the last time and aren't "satisfied" with the level of remorse expressed by the WS, or
*the BS has detached in a healthy way (healed) and is able 2 objectively determine that the WS would indeed have another A if given half a chance.

So, my question (because I deal with this nowadays myself):

Do you feel safe? Never mind your W's responsibility (assuming she has any) 2 act in ways 2 make you feel safe. Do you feel secure enough as an individual that you can be safe regardless of what your W even2ally decides 2 do or not do?

-ol' 2long

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750

I think there is also a character issue. It is a perfectly legitimate question to ask yourself if you should remain married to a wayward spouse who refuses to admit guilt or express remorse for their infidelity.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Quote
I will try to go for IC.

You don't ~really~ need IC, yanno !

You do need MC.

THAT is where I would place my boundary if I were you.

MC
MC
MC
MC

any questions?

the answer is

MC
MC
MC
MC

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
and

you do not go to MC to fix HER

you go to MC to mutually learn marriage skills

NOT to get her to feel/express/confess/redress remorse

she prolly needs marriage skills first

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,620
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,620
Quote
I think there is also a character issue. It is a perfectly legitimate question to ask yourself if you should remain married to a wayward spouse who refuses to admit guilt or express remorse for their infidelity


Agree Hiker. I for one would not stay married to a WW that was uncapable of 1. taking full responsibility for the devestation they wrought 2. Apologizing to everyone they hurt 3. Being remorseful to the point of sack cloth and ashes remorseful 4. Understanding in no uncertain terms that future contact or inappropriate behavior of any kind with opposite sex would send her packing to the curb 5. Be willing to take on the majority of the recovery responsibilities at some point shortly after no contact established and withdrawal. 6. Utlimately see the OM for the [censored], POS he really was not the knight in shining armor she's conjured him up to be and communicate that to me and friends. 7. Tell the truth to people she's lied to about the state of our marriage and my abilities as a husband and last 8. Go in front of our church congregation with me, make a public confession and ask for prayers and assistance for our family to recover from this tragic event.

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 598
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 598
Pio -

Like many here, I feel that a FWS should feel and express genuine remorse and regret for their actions. I would (and to some degree currently do) feel "unsafe" with my wife since I have seen very little remorse (it was 16 months after D-Day before I got an apology and admission from my wife that she had been selfish).

It could be part of your wife's character. I know that my wife does not like to apologize. I do not know if I will ever see the level of remorse from her that I would like, that would make me feel safe. I look at her actions a lot more closely, as I know that's how she demonstrates to remorse or apology (i.e., MP places more value on action than words).

It's a really crappy spot to be in. I do agree with Pep - MC, if you have access to it, would be very helpful. Your wife may feel that this is your problem, but it is not. It is your marriage's problem, and if you both want your marriage to succeed, you both need to address it.

Sorry I don't have any profound words of wisdom or advice for you. I'm all out of profoundity, I guess. But I understand your feelings and frustration.


Formerly known as brokenbird

BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05

Second separation. Working on me.

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
John 15:7 (NIV)
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 598
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 598
Pep -

Quote
you do not go to MC to fix HER

you go to MC to mutually learn marriage skills

That is awesome! Wonderfully succinct description of what MC is about.

You should add that to your notable posts thread. Spot on, as the folks across the pond like to say <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Formerly known as brokenbird

BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05

Second separation. Working on me.

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
John 15:7 (NIV)
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
Quote
Do you feel secure enough as an individual that you can be safe regardless of what your W even2ally decides 2 do or not do?


Most days I do. 2day I do. I do believe it is when I focus on this issue of remorse that I backslide. It draws me back 2 a place where I feel my feelings are unimportant. Face it. We all know that the A is not the BS's fault. We all know that we still, in some dark recess of our minds, feel guilty. WS isn't sorry - maybe they were right and we were wrong? Is it insecurity? Maybe. I know that lack of remorse is an obstacle 2 my healing. My response has been 2 detach emotionally from my M. Maybe that is self-protection or maybe it is difficulty in loving someone who is apparently (meaning by outward appearance) so selfish.

I was driving to soccer last night and had this thought. It is about the situation where the BS never sees remorse and decides to take the "high" road anyway. Whether for religious reasons or not, the BS tells himself/herself that he/she will stay with the WS and suffer the attitude of the WS. This, in some cases, might be very unhealthy for the M. Let me try to explain. A good M (I think) is based on equality. Both spouses are equal partners in each other's eyes. The A happens. Fog lifts. Withdrawal is gone. Now a WS remains married but they don't feel the BS needs an apology. From my BS point of view, my WW is telling me that she believes she is now superior to me in the relationship. I matter much less than her. Now I as a BS, for whatever motivation, decide to remain with the marriage 2 and "sacrifice" my right to an apology. I can take the view that I am the better person. I never had an A and I am tolerating the one who did. So I might view myself as the "superior" one in the relationship. So, in my hypothetical case, both BS and WS view themselves as superior to the other. That isn't healthy.

I mention this not because of how I feel. I would say in our case it has actually been the opposite. Based on scattered comments, WW and I may actually feel inferior to each other. I'm not sure it makes much difference. Whether inferior or superior, neither case permits equality.

BTW, did Pepperband say something? I was distracted and missed the Burma Shave signs. I really need to slow down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I recommended MC. WW countered with IC. I said I would get IC if she would agree to MC.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 750
Quote
From my BS point of view, my WW is telling me that she believes she is now superior to me in the relationship. I matter much less than her. Now I as a BS, for whatever motivation, decide to remain with the marriage 2 and "sacrifice" my right to an apology. I can take the view that I am the better person. I never had an A and I am tolerating the one who did. So I might view myself as the "superior" one in the relationship. So, in my hypothetical case, both BS and WS view themselves as superior to the other. That isn't healthy.

By not demonstrating remorse or seeking forgiveness, it is implicit that there is no admission of guilt. It seems to me the only way a reasonable person (who knows right from wrong) could adopt this attitude is by convincing themselves that the affair was a direct or indirect result of some problem with the marriage or their relationship with their spouse. That doesn't mean their beliefs are justified, but it does provide them with an opportunity to place some blame elsewhere and avoid full responsibility for the affair.

I think it's conceivable that a WS might assume an air of superiority under these conditions, but unless they are mentally ill I would bet this "air of superiority" is a facade; deep down they are feeling bad about themselves.

On the other hand, no matter how much a betrayed spouse can tell himself that he has the moral high ground and should feel superior to his wayward spouse, he won't actually feel that way deep inside. And that is because of what you have already pointed out: insecurity. The damage to one's ego from the betrayal is pervasive and longlasting on many levels.

In my opinion, that is why the failure to show remorse or seek forgiveness is an impediment to reconciliation. That doesn't mean I think it's impossible to recover without it, but I believe recovery is much more difficult without that important step.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 47
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 47
Hi Piajitos,

I think part of it is how someone is raised. Some are taught to say they're sorry when they've done something wrong and others aren't told to do that, or their parents were very forgiving and never expected it. My W is one of them that I've almost never heard an "I'm sorry", so I wasn't surprized when she didn't show any remorse when the A was first found out. All I got afterwards was lying mixed with truth. At that time I was still unsure what to do to deal with it all, then found the Harley's site and started reading up on ENs and how to deal with the WS. Over time, I worked hard on ENs, dropped the anger and demands, and replaced them with telling her how much it hurt from what she'd done. This is not wimpy behavior, it's being honest with the WS so she can know what she can do to help repair what she did. What amazed me is that whereas before she never apologized, she has since said at about three different times that she's sorry, or wished it had never happened, even once getting angry that I wasn't paying enough attention to her when the OM was.

I'm not out of the woods yet, none of us are. Remorse is just one peice of the puzzle. There is also the WS turning back into the W, behaving like the W and losing the WS attitudes and actions. I think that happens when they begin to feel love, feel safe, and feel they can trust that you'll be there for them regardless of what they've done.

God bless,
CS

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
CS,

I don't know your story. No offense but when was your Dday?

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
I would like to ask about another (related) issue that has been nagging at me for months.

Let me set the stage first by saying that:

1) I love me WW but definitely am not "in love" with her. I blame the A for me not loving her and the lack of remorse as my Everest assent to marital recovery.

2) I was still in love with my WW for a very long time after Dday but loving someone who I knew did not love me took its toll. I progressively fell out of love. So I can say it is difficult to want to love someone who doesn't love you.

3) I'm doing my best to meet all of WW's EN's that I know about. I am doing my best to be loving and attentive.

So my question is this: how long would I reasonably expect WW to remain in this situation before getting frustrated and give up? Doesn't WW really want to be with someone who loves her? (Isn't that what OM's are supposedly all about?)

If you are a BS or WS and had gotten all the way through withdrawal and found yourself in this situation, did you set a time limit for yourself? Was this ever a concern to you? How long can one person continue to be with another person who isn't in love with them? Or am I way off base? Is this really even a concern at all? One fear I have is that if I cannot fall in love with WW again, she might use this as entitlement for another A.

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
Quote
If you are a BS or WS and had gotten all the way through withdrawal and found yourself in this situation, did you set a time limit for yourself? Was this ever a concern to you? How long can one person continue to be with another person who isn't in love with them? Or am I way off base? Is this really even a concern at all? One fear I have is that if I cannot fall in love with WW again, she might use this as entitlement for another A.

It was not ever a consideration for me.
I think it is a valid concern
I think you are meeting her EN's and she probably considers herself in love with you.
Does she know what needs of yours she needs to meet?
If you don't have a loving marriage, I have no doubt one of you may have an affair some time in the future.


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
Quote
Does she know what needs of yours she needs to meet?


I gave her a copy of HNHN and told her that was one of my requirements for her staying (that she read it). She keeps meaning to but just has been so busy lately. I don't think she knows what an EN is. We need a common basis of understanding before we can discuss what they might be.

Quote
If you don't have a loving marriage, I have no doubt one of you may have an affair some time in the future.


Which is exactly why I avoid the saleswomen at Home Depot when I'm on repat.

Quote
I have no doubt one of you may have ....


I struggle with that grammatically. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by piojitos; 05/06/07 02:57 AM.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 17,837
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 17,837
I read your last couple of posts and wonder>:

1. What type of closure do you both have or had vs need to have?

2. In your eyes, is she still a WW?

3. What was or should be your recovery plan?

L.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
P
Member
OP Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
hmmm....

I have no idea what kind of closure WW has had or needs to have. What I believe I need is remorse or some other acknowledgement that the A was wrong. What I would REALLY like is for WW to understand her true motivation for the A. That, however, is a pipedream. It isn't really a question of forgiveness. It is a question of safety for me.

I still view WW as a WW. I have no reason to believe that she is really committed to the M. My belief is that she is trying to do her best because that is what she believes is her obligation. I also think the prospect of losing the girls scares her.

My recovery plan has been to use POJA in all decisions and try to get WW involved in everything including finances. So far she has successfully avoided the latter. I have 100% transparency and she has 100% translucency. She hides the things from me she thinks I might take the wrong way. That is a unilateral decision with no POJA. I have been doing my best to spend 15.5 hours a week with her. I usually succeed except when she scraps. I Plan B the scrapbooking and it is a dark one.

Basically I have been trying to do all that SAA recommends while awaiting WW to become a FWW. I swallow my anger and internalize it all. I lift a LOT of weights. That helps.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816
I paint a lot of walls... ...and other things.

I'm going 2 sound fatalistically pessimistic now: Most of what you describe in this thread is like what I'm feeling/experiencing. It's been 5 and a half years since d-day, and if I say ANYTHING marriage-building, it goes completely ignored. I still do get her tirades about how she doesn't believe in "conventional marriage."

But I digress. I don't think anything we try 2 do matters if the WS is still Wayward, even if it's not actively. All it takes is some high-pressure si2ation 2 make this clear. We had one of those yes2rday. All I want right now is out. It was that bad.

-ol' 2long

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Quote
So my question is this: how long would I reasonably expect WW to remain in this situation before getting frustrated and give up? Doesn't WW really want to be with someone who loves her? (Isn't that what OM's are supposedly all about?)


You tell her.

"I am lonely married to you."

"I do not feel that you love me."

"I am losing my love for you."

"I am frustrated that we are not both equally invested in each other's happiness."

"Time for change is now."

"This marriage can be restored, but only with time and effort from both of us."

"Are you happily married?"

"What are you willing to do to fix this?"

Burma Shave

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 47
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 47
3 months. The A seemed to pick up whenever there were anger or demands. I learned quickly that love busters are bad.

What do you think would be the reason that your WS hasn't shown remorse of some kind? Does she know that it hurts you? Does your WS think A's are common and don't need remorse? Sometimes people hide things they feel because they don't want to appear weak. Would she feel like she'd lose stature in saying it? Have you ever told her you'd never tell someone you're sorry? Do you think a MC would be able to find out what the reason is? Could she still be having the A and doesn't feel any remorse yet because it's not over yet?

If she's religious, repentence is something she needs to think about.

God bless,
CS

Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,352 guests, and 49 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5