getting conflicting stories here - to confront the OM, or not to...

BTW - just found emails that establish its def gone physical. That to me is a crushing blow. I am a physical guy - the emotional part hurts, but to imagine the physical part just killed me.

help!!

FL,

As I said. It doesn't matter. The only thing that has just happened is that you just got sucker-punched. Get over it. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't change what you need to do right now. Calm down. Vent here.

FL,

Don't forget something very important. Anything you say or do now can and will be used against you in a court of law should you come to divorce.

I didn't read all the justification for confronting OM. If you confront him and ask if he is willing to provide for your kids, to me, that is saying you are willing to give WW custody. That could backfire in court.

Some say you might find the good side in OM and appeal to his conscience. Whuh? This scum is sleeping with a married woman with kids. He has no conscience. Pleading with OM will make you appear weak. Killing OM will land you in jail. I don't see much upside potential.

My h's affair ended the SAME DAY I confronted his OW.

Steve Harley has counseled members to confront the OP to very good effect. First off, it scares the OM and secondly, it gives the OM a chance to put a real live face to a name. He instructed him to ask him "what are your intentions with my wife?" And to assure him that he would fight for his marriage and would not go down easy.

I think in this case, it would be extremely effective because this is a mommas boy who does not want any trouble. I know of affairs that have ended from doing this.

While there are certainly no guarantees, I see no downside from doing this. At worst he might have to endure some intellectually insulting FOG, but he has probably become accustomed to that being with his wife and it hasn't killed him yet.

FL,

All I can say is it was a waste of time in my case. But I also hate to see you get bogged down in a debate. It is one small part of the picture right now. Don't let this freeze you into inaction.

just got back from wife's mom's house - she went out for drinks with the girls tonite, but lo and behold when she pulls into the driveway, her boy is following her in his truck.

Of course he took off when he saw me.

Bad deal... Wife was walking back outside to see him - had taken off wedding ring, and was surprised to see me not him.

I told her that I loved her - that I was willing to take her back but she had to break this off. She said she's calling a lawyer on Monday.

This really sucks.

FL,

All WW's want to leave their BH's. It is part of the fantasy of the A. You need to make the A inconvenient. Expose to all who will listen. Hire a skywriter if you have to.

My WW was planning and packing to leave. That was 2 years ago. She never left. Don't listen to her. She speaks evil things. Listen to your inner self.

Listen to the people here who can help you. Remember the cover of "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" that simply says in large letters "DON'T PANIC!".

Yes this sucks. No question. Can't help you there.

I said a few days ago that I bet your wife lost respect for you. Her going gaga over an OM in a bar, not normal. She cannot love you if she doesn't respect you.

Right now she doesn't want to love you and there is nothing you can do to make her love you. Just focus on killing the affair. She will hate you before this is over. That's good. If she hates you, that means she is severely conflicted and does have feelings for you.

I have to agree with Pio.

Conflict is good. Cause as much conflict in the affair as you can.

FL, when are you going to expose this affair?

(Pio, it is great to see you offering your advice....you are really good at it, you know.)

FL,

Please understand I am only trying to help you but this sounds like part of what I am talking about when I mention respect. I also have the advantage of 20-20 hindsight. Your WW knows that she has just ripped your heart out of your chest. Don't plead to get her back. Look up the five stages of grief. I'm not sure the order but denial and bargaining are the first two. They don't always come in order and sometimes you jump back and forth but sooner or later you will visit them all.

Saying she needs to break it off is a boundary and a good one. Saying you will take her back if she breaks it off. [I love American Idol: "Yo dude. So check it out. I don't know man. It really doesn't work for me. Not really your best effort. Just tryin' to be real, man."]

Whatever you do, you need to be strong now even if you are melting inside. Never let her see you sweat. If she says she is calling a lawyer, tell her that is her choice. If she chooses to end the M, that is her right but she will have to do it.

I read through your letter you had previously written. TMI. Don't blame yourself for the A. My WW blamed me for it all too. She rewrote a lot of history, made up a lot of things, lied about a lot of things - all with the intention of getting people to say "you poor dear - you should have divorced him long ago". By the time it was over, I was not only responsible for the A but I had chalked up global warming, war in the Middle East and Pluto losing it's planet status. WW was about to shave my body looking for a "666".

I ran her BF out of the country. Got him fired, got his visa cancelled, I harshly enforced NC. She hated me. She couldn't live with me. She never wanted to see me again. About 6 months after NC was finally achieved, she began to change. Now OM is a distant memory.

I think I said early on that whether your WW is going to leave you forever or not has very little to do with you and what you are doing. You recognize that you made some mistakes. While you are still together, show her you are changing. She will accuse you of trickery. She will say it won't last. She will speak fiendish things. She is possessed by a demon. Don't listen to the words out of her mouth. Everything she says, she says with the intention of hurting you more. Bend like the willow.

For your WW to give upthe A and return to you will be very difficult for her personally. I have a whole chapter of amateur psychology written on the subject. None of that matters. This is a step by step process. Your first step is to strip away the fanatsy of the A, make the A as ugly as possible for WW and as inconvenient as possible for OM (while not breaking the law). Let WW demonstrate to the world that she is the one destroying this M. Let her own the result.

She may ultimately leave you. If she does, it will not be for your mistakes - it will be for hers.

When I was in your place, my ego was shattered. I had to find a focus. One of those things women in labor do to help survive the pain. I set my sights on one thing that gave me strength and never took them off.

If you want to see what a wreck is, just go back and read my original threads. You may feel alone but you are not.

I had a chat with my WW a few days ago. Argument actually. I told her it was a shame that she had sacrificed her one true love - her soul mate. She said her story was just like anybody else's. It was never real. It just seemed like it at the time.

You cannot fight the A head on. You cannot stand toe-to-toe with OM and win in WW's eyes. That was that part that was the worst for me. So you need to get OM out of the picture. NC.

Update:

Exposure - I did. Her friends, my friends, her family, my family - pretty much everyone.

Her insistence was that she had not done anything wrong because she had not yet had sex with him...

Now the update. I had been praying for a sign from God as to my wife's intentions - when I saw him pull up to her house, that was it.

After arguing with her for about an hour that nite, I went home and finished her mothers day gift - a photo album going all the way back to 1987 - when we first met. I did it right too - little handwritten notes throughout - purpose of the album was to show her that it has been good - that she's forgotten thos things... I also wrote a letter very similar to the one in SAA cutting her off from me. physical / emotional / financial etc support. Explaining that I loved her more now than ever, but that I cound not continue this 'in between' life where she was seeing him, and saying that she was working on 'us' while livin at her moms and not having any responsibility...

She showed up home Saturday night - apologized for over an hour, begged me to forgive her and told me how wrong she had been to get the OM into our issues. Admitted that bringing in OM only complicated, not helped our issues, etc. All of the things she had been denying for weeks. So - I have taken her back in, and she is committed to working on us the right way.

She's understanding about the email, phone and message review by me. I have also offered her that same level of access to my stuff.

She's a little annoyed that I'm continuing to work from home - 'smothering' - and I'm concerned over that - and her potential for relapse is high, I know.

What can I do to reconnect? read/implement HNHN? I've read SAA and am using the concepts in it to watch what I say, avoiding lovebusters, etc. She won't read anything I suggest, and is hesitant to even listen. I don't want to push anything on her but what can I do - just my half of trying to reconnect/restore loving feelings?

Well all good news. Well done.

1) Be fully prepared for her to contact OM again. Many will.

2) Be prepared for what you will do if she does. You can go everal ways on this - none is necessarily wrong. My only suggestion is don't react - be prepared.

3) Don't even try to reconnect. Not yet. Give her time. Just be friends for the moment if you have to.

4) Do your best Plan A. Make those changes that you know you need to make in the M. Don't backslide. You should make those changes anyway so just do it.

5) She is annoyed you are working at home? She needs to just get over it. That's her problem - not yours. You have to do what you have to do to satisfy yourself. I took my WW on a business trip with me to Oman just so she would have no ability to contact OM. Expensive but worth it.

6) She is vulnerable to contact OM for 3-6 months easily. Each passing day makes her that much better off. She breaks NC? The clock starts over.

7) OM is not your problem. He never was your problem. Forget about OM unless he starts stalking WW and then rain he!!fire on his butt.

8) Don't force her to do anything. She will change her thinking with time. I used to work in a hospital. Back in those days, doctors would get patients hooked on morphine because the alternative pain was too great. Later they stayed in the hospital to come down off morphine. I have held some of them in my arms. I have killed imaginary bugs. I have done many things to help those people through withdrawal. None of it made much sense. But it helped them I guess.

Don't try to be romantic with WW. Just be her friend. Romance will come in time.

Pio - thanks again for words of advice.

Also found out last nite that he lives in this neighborhood. She says he's not the stalking type, that he's not like that, that she told him to go away and he'll do waht she says.

However, I am a guy. If I was infatuated with a woman I would have a very hard time honoring her requests. I hope he wouldn't be foolish enough to stalk / peep / whatever.

She said she met him out in a bar when we were out with friends. she said she's never seen his truck anywhere in our neighborhood. She says he doesn't go to the pool, or the fitness center (where she's been every day for the past 2 mos.) and that she's never once been to his house, or him to ours.

I just can't trust her. I told her I wanted to move and she called me nuts and several other things (not so nice!).

I'm moving slow. The things I talking to her about are low stress things. About spending more time together. About open communication. about reconnecting. She says she's all in.

She didn't have to tell me he lived here. But she did. She told me she's not going to lie to me any more - brutal honesty I think... That's a good sign, right?

1) Don't try to analyze everything so much. WW is back in your home. Settle for that for the moment.

2) Okay you seem to have damaged the A. Good.

3) Now the hard part begins. Be patient.

4) Hope for the best, expect the worst.

ugh...

she's out tonight at a Junior League meeting (voluteer women's organization) and has called to say that a couple of them are going out for wine after the meeting..

this was a frequent cover for meeting OM. Should i just chill, or offer to go meet them? She's continuing to say how she still needs some space to sort stuff out mentally - but I believe that to still be fogtalk.

Suggestions?? Anyone?

What should have happened...

In your current situation, like it or not, your WW must give up certain freedoms for a period of time to help you regain trust. That didn't happen.

So....

Does she have a cell? Call her. I'm actually 50-50 on this.

When she gets home, tell her without any anger or DJ how this has made you feel. You have that right. I'm 100% on this.

Now....

If your WW wants to have an A, she will. you cannot prevent that - ever. Is she backsliding with OM? I have no clue.

But you now have a few minutes of free time. What would you do if you found out she were? I told you before to be prepared. Think this through now so you don't react angrily if you find out she has. Plan your response so you can be strong and firm. I hope you never need to. I did. Five times.

Don't be a doormat. Do understand that many WW's do not break off the A cold turkey. You had a goal when you found out about this. I assume your goal hasn't really changed.

I told you before that the easy part was over and now the real work begins.

So what would be your Plan A response to learning she went to see OM - for whatever reason? Keep in mind that she may have gone to see him (if she even did) just to try to explain to him why she had to stop. For some reason that will never ever make any sense, women just are like this. Insanity I know but what are you gonna do? We can't change em and we can't kill em. I'm at a loss.

is making her leave better or worse? With her out, she has more freedom, I can't work plan A, but it establishes the ground rules...

When she committed to not seeing him before, and she did, I made her leave. Tough on kids, and I think she enjoyed being out. Not exactly what I had planned...

she just got in... a really LONG drive home (should have been ~30 min, was an hour) but she explained it as stopping for fries, caught by train, yada yada yada....

But she didn't go out w/ girls. But I believe she did go see him.

Okay here is my take.

1) Plan A does not mean the A is over. Plan A is something you do while the A is still going on or WW is in withdrawal from a recently terminated affair. I went through 5 or 6 discoveries of renewed contact after NC was supposedly established. Each time I reacted somewhat differently. First time I got really mad and packed her bags. She begged for another chance. One time I simply ignored it and one time I really scolded her like a little child.

All my approaches were probably wrong to an extent. I will say that when I simply scolded her and told her how pathetic I thought she was and told her to continue to contact because I no longer cared because she wasn't worth it, I think that hurt her the worst. It is also the last contact incident I know of. I recommend you do NOT do that right out of the box. I think that was very extreme and I had a lot of time under my belt when that happened.

There is every possibility that your WW may continue contact with OM. You have to continue Plan A. Withdrawal is hard and not just because she has feelings for OM. It will be very hard for her to come back to you. You being critical and judgmental will only make it harder on her.

I do think you need to gain her respect. Don't let her think she can walk all over you. You do need to have clear boundaries and she needs to know what the consequences are if she violates them. You also need to be fully prepared to follow up on your threats. Do what you say you will do.

Right now I think you are strong enough to accept a little contact. Use that. With time and continued contact, it will become more difficult for you because you will progressively lose your love for your wife.

At the moment you don't know anything has happened. I wouldn't pry. I would tell her upon her return that you were upset. This has made you feel really bad and you want to POJA some groundrules for future excursions so she doesn't do this again any time soon.

She feels somewhat like a caged animal. She doesn't like being under the microscope. That is because she is not fully committed to the M and to protecting you. She will eventually get to that point but it is probably too soon yet.

I guess I don't think you should make a big issue about this since you don't really know that she is not out getting sloshed with her girlfriends. This IS how she hooked up with OM in the first place though. It is very rude of her to have done this.