Found out 2 weeks ago tomorrow that W is in an EA. Without any knowledge of MB or plan A/B I demanded that she stop contacting OM (had only been via email since init meet 2 mos ago).
Details - me 41, WW 40, married 18 yrs, 3 kids, 17, 14, 12. I had a close call with an EA (more of an infatuation/fixation) with her brother's GF in Jan of this year, but other than that no prior history of A's - either her or me.
She met him in a bar when we were out together with a big group of friends. Said she felt an immediate attraction to him - so much that she gave him her cell #. He called 2 weeks later, and they began talking.
I was traveling a bunch w work at the time - and their relationship really took off when I was gone. I didn't used to pay much attention to cellphone bills (NOW I DO!) but noticed that the last bill was over $600. When I started digging, I started prying and she addmitted it.
For the 1st week after telling me she said she wasn't ready to 'give it up' - that it was something special, etc. all of the fog talk. Saw a counselor later that week, she said the same thing - cut it off, clear your head, then assess situation. She refused. Later that weekend, she did agree to stop contacting him. (this was 5 days after dday.)
3 days later (this past Wed.) she contacted him again - admitted it to me. I gave her an ultimatum then - stop it, focus on us, or leave. She left for a couple of hours - had a 2 hr phone conversation with him (verified on the bill) then came home crying, all torn up, saying as hard as it was she owed it to us and the kids to work on it.
Today she went missing for 4 hours. When I pressed her for the truth over where she had been, she admitted to having gone to his work to see him, and had spent the afternoon with him in his truck trying to figure out what to do.
(We are both religeous - she says she will never be intimate with someone while she's married - but that didn't stop her from letting it get this far)
Once I filtered the info of her having seen him again, I demanded that she leave immediately. We explained to the kids that mom had some issues to work through, and that she'd be @ grandma's for a while. Kids were devastated. But she still left.
Did I move to plan B too quickly? I just bought SAA,halfway through it, but scared and hurt!!
she's gone - out to her mom's house. said she can't bear it - can't take not contacting him. What do I do to get her back w/o being spineless and too needy (which she already accuses me of being!)
I was working plan a unknowingly - I exposed it to her friends, her family, her mom, her bro and sis-in-law, my parents & family, etc. All were pressuring her to wake up, slow down, and get counseling.
She says she'll stay in counseling - we're seeing the same counselor but separately - isn't interested in attending with me - says she already knows how bad she hurt me and just needs to resolve why she could feel so strongly for another man, and why had she supressed all the unhappy feelings she had had with me for years... fog talk, I know - but it still hurts. Her next appointment is Wed.
Any suggestions? The letter in the book for officially starting plan B?
FL, first off, you should expose the affair. Expose it to her family, your family, close friends, your pastor and his wife, if any. This will help wake her up from this fantasy infatuation when she is forced to explain herself and see how sleazy she looks through the eyes of others.
Confront the OM and ask him what his intentions are with your wife and let him know you will fight for your marriage. Allow him to put a face to your name.
Her mother especially should be told the truth so she doesn't accommodate her affair.
Secondly, I would take steps to protect your finances because she could very well plunder your assets.
CANCEL her cell phone if she using this to run up high bills talking to the OM.
In the meantime, follow Plan A and do your best to disrupt the affair without lovebusting. If she will come home, I would let her do it.
Here is a good outline of Plan A:
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband
The carrot of Plan A
Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.
Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.
Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.
Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.
Stop lovebusting behaviors.
Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.
Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.
Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.
Offering forgiveness and understanding.
The stick of Plan A
Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.
Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.
Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.
Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.
Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.
Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.
Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.
(We are both religeous - she says she will never be intimate with someone while she's married - but that didn't stop her from letting it get this far)
This is very probably a lie, I am sorry to say. It always is.
I would also suggest that you sit your children down and tell them the truth. If you don't, your W will lie to them which will cause them great harm. Kids can deal with the truth, they cant deal with lies. It will give you an opportunity to give them some much needed moral guidance and protect them from the possibility of being dragged into her affair with an introduction to the OM. if they know the truth, they can defend themselves against this.
The thing about the A is that it is a lot of fun when there are no consequences. You have now given her consequences. I applaud you for kicking her out. You have just given her a cold slap of reality. Yes you probably should go to Plan A but I suggest you do it with a very clear set of boundary conditions of your chosing. Basically "my way or the highway". You should also make one of your conditions MC.
Expose her to the world. Expose OM. Don't worry about making her angry, Don't worry about embarrassing her. Somebody siad exposure should be like scorched earth. Somebody was right. Don't worry about losing her - you already did that. Don't fear anything because you have nothing to fear (voice of experience).
OM is 26, lives at home w/ his mom, and works part time. When I found out, and after she told me the second time that she had contacted him again, I called and left him a message. Basically that he WAS destroying a marriage, that WW DID have a husband dedicated to her, that she was LOVED, that there were 3 kids involved, etc. When she tried to see him later that night (last wed) he refused - said he didn't want to get between her and me. That's why she went to see him at work. He wouldn't return her calls.
financial cutoff will hurt WW. Piss her off definitely. She is definitely a material girl. Drive her away? who knows.
This hurts so bad - I've never been hurt this badly before. Losing my wife like this - and trying to be strong to avoid driving her farther away - is killing me.
You haven't lost anybody yet. That's why you are here.
My WW fell for a swimming instructor younger than her. She was ready to abandon her kids for the guy and fly off to another country.
I came to MB. Long story short - she is with us still. OM is ancient history. I exposed her to the bone. She is still here. I pissed her off to no end. She screamed/ranted/raved. She's still here.
I advise you to avoid further contact with OM. That is always an unknown with too many variables. OM is not your problem. Don't put down OM in front of your WW. WW loves him. She will defend him. Focus on your problem. OM is not it. WW's contact with OM is your problem.
I know it is hard to react when your world is turned upside down. Do it anyway. Get up and get moving.
If WW gets mad, don't apologize. It sounds like she doesn't respect you very much. Make her learn.
Just to add - WW is still with us 2 years after-the-fact and shows no signs of leaving.
I wanted to pass along something else that occurred to me when I reread the title of your post.
When I first started this whole process shortly after Dday (took a few months to find this site), I was as timid as timid can get. I was so afraid of any tiny misstep. I used to think of MB as a tightrope - one loss of balance and you were on the tarmac. Looking back I now see this plan as wide as the Sydney Harbour bridge. It is really hard to make a misstep that is unrecoverable. (it has guard rails too) I also believe now that whether your WW leaves you, stays with you, or leaves and then comes back to you depends much more on her than you. Her makeup will determine what actions she takes and it is all beyond your control.
There are smarter people here who can and will give you much better guidance. All I want to tell you is that you have absolutely nothing to be afraid of. Or as FDR said in his first inaugural address...
My personal favorite is the quote from the great German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche (as cited in "Slap her, she's French") who said: "That which doesn't kill us is about to wish it had because we're about to FedEx his sorry [censored] back to Losersville where he came from" (your OM, of course).
So, in short, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid of losing your WW. You can't control that. Don't be afraid of action. Do have a plan. The only bad thing you can do right now is nothing. Quick, decisive action on your part will give you a great chance to save your M. Women don't fall in love like that. WW is not in love with OM - she only thinks she is. WW is in love with the A. Take the "prettiness" away from the A. Make it ugly. Expose it. Think of the affair like jock itch. Get it out into the sun and dry it up. Okay - bad analogy. I'll work on it.
pio - the jock itch analogy made me laugh - for the first time in several weeks. Thank you for that.
I will continue working to expose her affair. I will continue digging to find whether its gone P or just E as she has said.
I will continue to maintain my male role in my home, welcoming her home on terms of working on our marriage, nothing less.
I will get through this. I can get through this. This is making me a better man, for a better future, hopefully w/same W, but as you said - that's really her choice not mine.
I just thought of some other folks to call this morning... here comes sunlight round two!
FL,I would do all the exposing in one day if you possibly can. The SOONER THE BETTER. That way it hits in one fell swoop and is harder to recover.
Start with her mother, and then move to the OM's mother. You might even drive to his house and knock on the door. That will shake up that little bast***. Maybe you will luck out and he is there. Steve Harley counseled a man once to pay a visit to the OM and face him and ask him what his intentions are for his wife. It scared him to death and he dumped his wife. I suspect this little weasel will be just as cowardly.
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financial cutoff will hurt WW. Piss her off definitely. She is definitely a material girl. Drive her away? who knows.
Drive her away where? Isn't she already gone? You should not be financing her affair. Cut her money off and let her see what it will be like SINGLE. Its ok if she gets mad, the goal here is to save your marriage, not to avoid making her mad.
I have always thought OM is so impersonal. Let's start referring to yours a "JI".
ML is right. What is the worst thing that could have happened? You wife leaves you. Guess what? She did. You're still here. So you have survived the absolute worst.
Now. Regardless of how you feel about WW at this moment, this JI is attacking your children. What are you going to do about it?
Get His Needs, Her Needs (HNHN) off of this Website, Today! And you will start making a difference immediatly.
Your W was ripe for an A. HNHN will describe how your M got to that point. JI just happened to be the "one" It could have been anyone else.
So, It took you 19 years of M to get here. It will not change overnight. Remember there are milestones in this journey. You will recognize the milestones on the trip out, you will see them on the trip back. We can help you chart them and recognize them.
OM is 26, lives in an apartment w/ his mom, and works part time.
Mmmmmmm! How attractive is that? What a man!
And she is a material girl? hmmm Not much material in that package!
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What do I do to get her back w/o being spineless and too needy
Expose to anyone and everyone you can think of! Tell your kids the truth as part of your exposure! They can handle it and they deserve it! Do not finance (enable) this A! Cut off the cash flow. Shut off the cell phone. Work on yourself and take good care of your kids. CLARIFY YOUR BOUNDRIES! MC and NC a must for her to return home. Make sure she is aware of your boundries and can see the path home. For this you will probably need to put it in writing. (Plan B letter?)
You have gotten some really great advise here from the others! My prayers are with you.
BTW, to answer your question
*HELP - did I do the wrong thing?*
The answer is (IMHO) ABSOLUTELY NOT! SHE DID! You are only protecting your family! That is not weak or spineless, That my friend is strong and attractive! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
MyBad --------------- Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't.
OM is 26, lives in an apartment w/ his mom, and works part time.
Mmmmmmm! How attractive is that? What a man!
And she is a material girl? hmmm Not much material in that package!
FL, to MyBad's point, if you cut off the money she will be FORCED TO FACE the fact that this boy cannot support her lifestyle. That little FACTOID will be staring her right in the face. That will take all the fun out of the affair!!
And please do tell the boy's momma that he is being bad. If my son - aged 25 - ever behaved so trashy, there would be he11 to pay. And this sounds like a mommas boy if he lives with hims' mommy. HOW CUTE. I think you could cause him HUGE TROUBLE if you drove over there and had a little chat with da' momma. His momma might tell him to behave. I know I would!
I had he!! getting my WW to maintain NC. She would buy prepaid phone cards. I ended up taking all her credit cards and all her cash. I used to give her a fixed amount of cash each week and made her justify all expenses with receipts. Unfortunately she got creative with cash expenses such as the maid. I caught that too. She went without one penny in her purse for six months. She maintained NC because she didn't have any money to cheat. I can't begin to tell you how bad that made ME feel. Later on I came to find little stashes of just enough cash to buy a phone card hidden around the house. Kind of like an alcoholic hiding bottles. It was seriously pathetic. My WW quit her A because she couldn't finance it. Funny thing is OM could have supported her habit. He didn't want to spend his money on her. One thing I have noticed about nearly all affairs - they cost money.
FL is a no fault divorce state... my understanding is that if I contest, it will delay and cost me more, but eventually if she pushes it she will get out - regardless of whether I agree or not.
the no fault rule also apparently applies to alimony and child support... so with that said, is there any value in hiring a PI to get proof of a PA?
I'm no expert on divorces. A lawyer in your state will tell you if a PA will give you more rights in a divorce. Somehow I doubt it will.
I saw this yesterday in your post and almost commented then. Are you obsessing over whether it is a PA or not? If so, you just need to let it go. It doesn't matter (except that in the case of a PA you need to get tested for STD's). Whether it is EA or PA, the "A" is the operative word.
In many cases, an EA is even more devastating than a PA. Ask yourself why this knowledge is important to you. Unless it will give you specific legal rights, you need to stop thinking about it.
All - this is the wakeup letter I sent to her in January, after realizing that I hadn't been happy, was not making her happy, and was rededicating myself to our marriage. Three days after I sent this to her, I entered some intensive counseling to deal with some ongoing anger issues, as well as general stress management.
I also came very close to an EA myself, which I have since admitted and discussed with her. Mine was more of an infatuation - the person I was attracted to wasn't even aware of it, and when I brought it up she gave me a real big smack in the face of cold reality... what scared me back to consciousness was the realization that I COULD have fallen into an A and given up my family, a wife of 18+ years, all that we had done together, etc.
This seems to be at the crux of her issue. I believe that she took this as a 'get out of jail' card, and started looking.
Thoughts? Repair strategy? HELP!!! (BTW - Lauren is our troubled 17 yr old daughter...)
**********************
To R, my Wife of (almost) eighteen years:
You were my girlfriend long before we were married or started a family; and my wife before we had children.
I don’t know even how to begin this letter, if you’ll ever see it, or when.
First and before I go any further, I want to be clear in telling you that I love you. In our entire relationship I have never been unfaithful to you. You have been the focal point of my life, and providing for you (financially, emotionally, physically) is what I live to do. That’s what I was made by God to do, and I am most happy doing it.
I am first to admit that I am responsible for where we are now. Focusing on a being a guy and not a husband, I haven’t been the most supportive or involved in our relationship or our family. I’m not sure how much more I could have given or what exactly else I could have done, but I know it could have been more, had I just focused on it. I am the one that gets irrational with my expectations for the kids and sometimes for us as well, and I know that that’s not fair for you or us.
As a guy, I’ve focused on providing the income but none of the other stuff. I need to work on being a husband and providing more of the ‘other stuff’ – help with the kids, emotional support, etc.
One of the good things about being out on the road and in NC is it gives me a lot of time alone to think – and I think I know why I get so angry with Lauren. Part of it is truly disappointment in her choices and decisions, but much more of it is anger with her for creating stress in our relationship. It’s almost as if when we are good – our relationship is working and we’re on great terms – she chooses that moment to mess stuff up. And I resent her for that. And I know that when I get angry with her, it only pushes us further apart.
Before I get into the things that worry me about where we are headed, I want you to know that I don’t blame you – at best, it’s both our faults that we are where we are, at worst – it’s me. So please don’t take this as an attack on you – I am just trying to express my fears and concerns as I see them.
I need to explain that from my perspective, our relationship is headed into trouble. For the past several months (six? eight?) I’ve felt like we’ve drifted further and further apart. Whether it’s been due to disagreements over how to handle kids (Lauren’s situations particularly), general parenting (turning a blind eye and thereby endorsing underage drinking/whatever), our relationship hasn’t been first in our home for a long time. There have been some fantastic moments in there – but there’s been a lot more grief than good.
I’ve tried to express to you my concerns indirectly and directly, but just don’t seem to be getting any attention. We’ve talked about how our relationship needs to come first, and that everything else (my work commitments, our parenting relationship with our children, your volunteerism, our outside friends) is all secondary and needs to be sustained by OUR RELATIONSHIP. I know that it takes two to make it work, and one alone can’t do it. There’ve been times where I’ve been the one that hasn’t placed our relationship first.
I’ve brought you a book (the Dr. Laura book on husbands) and started discussions to try and explain my perspective and what it seems like we needed. I thought if I was able to get you to see a little (just a little!) of my perspective it might help our communications and understanding of each others’ needs. From your reactions and refusal to read it or even discuss, it was almost like you felt I was trying to insult you! (How much effort did you really put into doing something I asked you to do – for me? I even attempted to read it to you!)
I’ve asked about what you need – what I can do to help and I believe I have tried to do all of it (last Saturday night excepted). I do everything I can to get everything you ask done when I’m home – regardless of how physically or mentally wiped I am, because I know that stuff is important to you. I try to do everything I can to stay connected to the kids – to help (even remotely!) with their stuff to try and help with that responsibility as well…
I’ve tried to get you to understand my point of view through direct conversations, such as in November when we talked about how I didn’t feel appreciated, and felt taken for granted in our home and relationship. I didn’t seem able to make my point then, and am not sure if you understand it even now…
In early December, I expressed my concerns when I was feeling hopeless over our Christmas situation, the amount of money that was getting spent, and how it just didn’t seem like enough… And in looking back, I remember arguing over it, but nothing came of it other than spending more money. Our struggles to attend the Financial Peace class were to me another example of how far we’ve drifted apart… my hope for that class was to allow you the opportunity to learn more about money, and hopefully allow you the opportunity to learn and become more comfortable with our financial matters… but I’m not sure how successful we were there either. It is important to me that you learn this stuff, so that in the event anything was to happen to me, you’d be able to take care of the kids and yourself.
Somewhere between Christmas and New Years, I came to a very painful realization that I was no longer happy. I don’t know if it was just the holidays, being around people having a good time on New Years or what, but since New Years’ day things have just felt ‘off’.
This past weekend was very difficult for me – in fact the whole week was tough. I’m drinking more (a bad deal!) and find myself even considering ‘checking out’ – just taking off and disappearing for a couple of weeks. I don’t know if it’s stress related, I just know that I’m not happy. I’ve never had thoughts like this before, feel incredibly confused and am seeking guidance on what it all means… (That’s what my counseling appointment is primarily going to address I hope – my recent thoughts of taking off…) Regardless of what’s going on, know that I’m still here.
My drinking is a bad deal – when I drink and am in a bad mood, I get ugly, and that’s not me. My behavior last Saturday night is a perfect example. I’ve apologized for that and will do my best never to behave that way again. Again – that’s not me. (In 20 years of knowing me you hopefully realize that.)
Work has been incredibly stressful over the past 3 months – more so than I ever would have thought in looking back over it. It has had an impact on me and on our relationship as well – but I don’t think that work alone is to blame. (It’s almost like a fire that gets started, and once started you can’t put it out- it just keeps feeding and getting bigger… I get all involved in work, it creates stress at home or with you over my hours or my travel, and I avoid dealing with us by working/traveling even more…)
I’m ashamed to say that I’ve actually been looking forward to being out of town rather than being home, in that at least when I’m gone I don’t have to justify our lack of emotional connection any more. When I’m up here in Cary, I tell myself that it’s just because we’re apart… but when I’m home, it’s still bad and it’s difficult to be there.
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking of separation – maybe just staying here in NC for a couple of months. Hoping to allow things to settle down and for us both to figure out what’s most important in each of our lives. I can’t stand the thought of not being there with you and the kids. I know that that wouldn’t do anything positive to help us or our relationship.
I’ve thought a lot over the past three weeks about love and whether or not we’re still in love… people fall out of love every day, right? I believe that this is one of those rocky points in our life where we’ll either choose to make it, or we’ll walk away… I’ve decided I want to make it. I want to reestablish that loving, caring, emotional bond with you. I miss not only the physical component of our relationship – but also the emotional one. I’ve really felt alone in the past couple of months – and not just due to all of the travel – and I know that’s not what I want.
I believe that right now in our relationship is a turning point – and we can choose to continue together or find our ways separately. I believe that we can make it, that I can be a better man through my relationship with you, and that we together are better than us separate. I need to know that you feel the same way. I need to know that you are better with than without me.
Like I’ve said earlier, I feel like I’ve been trying to carry this relationship on my back for the past bazillion months. I know you are probably angry that I said that, but its how I feel. I’m the one that’s been trying to express my feelings over where we’re headed, I’m the one that’s been trying to establish some communications regarding our relationship, but it seems to go nowhere. A perfect example was the weekend you went to your brother's, got drunk and stayed out all night after I’d been gone for close to two weeks straight… it seems to me that you should rather be with your husband than your brother and his friends, regardless of how long I’d been gone, how much you needed some time out or whatever.
I need to know that you love me first and foremost; that I am the reason you get up in the morning, get the kids off to school, cook, clean, and do everything you can to make our house a home for the kids, but primarily for me. I need to feel like I’m the most important thing in your life again. If I’m not or won’t be, please let me know now.
I remember times when we were happy together – when I couldn’t wait to get home from work, regardless of how long I had to work or where I was coming from, and kiss you and hold you. It seems like such a long time ago now… But know that I do want those times back. I want to be your husband first, the father of your children second, and provider last. Somewhere in the past couple of years, that’s become reversed. I need to be first – I deserve to be first.
I hope that this letters’ rambling didn’t stray too far from its core message – I love you, I miss you and our relationship, and I want to re-establish that husband-wife bond that we used to have.
It’s not meant to assign blame – if anyone is at fault, it would be me (I’m the one that’s gone all the time), but I honestly believe that no one is at fault for where we are now. I don’t expect guilt or remorse – I only want your love. Please let me know how you feel – and I truly hope it’s to love me and be with me forever.
I love you and will see you in a couple of hours. I’m off to see a client, then I’ll be on the road around 1:30 or 2pm. I won’t have email, but if you want to talk, please call me.
getting conflicting stories here - to confront the OM, or not to...
BTW - just found emails that establish its def gone physical. That to me is a crushing blow. I am a physical guy - the emotional part hurts, but to imagine the physical part just killed me.
As I said. It doesn't matter. The only thing that has just happened is that you just got sucker-punched. Get over it. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't change what you need to do right now. Calm down. Vent here.
Don't forget something very important. Anything you say or do now can and will be used against you in a court of law should you come to divorce.
I didn't read all the justification for confronting OM. If you confront him and ask if he is willing to provide for your kids, to me, that is saying you are willing to give WW custody. That could backfire in court.
Some say you might find the good side in OM and appeal to his conscience. Whuh? This scum is sleeping with a married woman with kids. He has no conscience. Pleading with OM will make you appear weak. Killing OM will land you in jail. I don't see much upside potential.
My h's affair ended the SAME DAY I confronted his OW.
Steve Harley has counseled members to confront the OP to very good effect. First off, it scares the OM and secondly, it gives the OM a chance to put a real live face to a name. He instructed him to ask him "what are your intentions with my wife?" And to assure him that he would fight for his marriage and would not go down easy.
I think in this case, it would be extremely effective because this is a mommas boy who does not want any trouble. I know of affairs that have ended from doing this.
While there are certainly no guarantees, I see no downside from doing this. At worst he might have to endure some intellectually insulting FOG, but he has probably become accustomed to that being with his wife and it hasn't killed him yet.
All I can say is it was a waste of time in my case. But I also hate to see you get bogged down in a debate. It is one small part of the picture right now. Don't let this freeze you into inaction.
just got back from wife's mom's house - she went out for drinks with the girls tonite, but lo and behold when she pulls into the driveway, her boy is following her in his truck.
Of course he took off when he saw me.
Bad deal... Wife was walking back outside to see him - had taken off wedding ring, and was surprised to see me not him.
I told her that I loved her - that I was willing to take her back but she had to break this off. She said she's calling a lawyer on Monday.
All WW's want to leave their BH's. It is part of the fantasy of the A. You need to make the A inconvenient. Expose to all who will listen. Hire a skywriter if you have to.
My WW was planning and packing to leave. That was 2 years ago. She never left. Don't listen to her. She speaks evil things. Listen to your inner self.
Listen to the people here who can help you. Remember the cover of "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" that simply says in large letters "DON'T PANIC!".
Yes this sucks. No question. Can't help you there.
I said a few days ago that I bet your wife lost respect for you. Her going gaga over an OM in a bar, not normal. She cannot love you if she doesn't respect you.
Right now she doesn't want to love you and there is nothing you can do to make her love you. Just focus on killing the affair. She will hate you before this is over. That's good. If she hates you, that means she is severely conflicted and does have feelings for you.
I told her that I loved her - that I was willing to take her back but she had to break this off. She said she's calling a lawyer on Monday.
FL,
Please understand I am only trying to help you but this sounds like part of what I am talking about when I mention respect. I also have the advantage of 20-20 hindsight. Your WW knows that she has just ripped your heart out of your chest. Don't plead to get her back. Look up the five stages of grief. I'm not sure the order but denial and bargaining are the first two. They don't always come in order and sometimes you jump back and forth but sooner or later you will visit them all.
Saying she needs to break it off is a boundary and a good one. Saying you will take her back if she breaks it off. [I love American Idol: "Yo dude. So check it out. I don't know man. It really doesn't work for me. Not really your best effort. Just tryin' to be real, man."]
Whatever you do, you need to be strong now even if you are melting inside. Never let her see you sweat. If she says she is calling a lawyer, tell her that is her choice. If she chooses to end the M, that is her right but she will have to do it.
I read through your letter you had previously written. TMI. Don't blame yourself for the A. My WW blamed me for it all too. She rewrote a lot of history, made up a lot of things, lied about a lot of things - all with the intention of getting people to say "you poor dear - you should have divorced him long ago". By the time it was over, I was not only responsible for the A but I had chalked up global warming, war in the Middle East and Pluto losing it's planet status. WW was about to shave my body looking for a "666".
I ran her BF out of the country. Got him fired, got his visa cancelled, I harshly enforced NC. She hated me. She couldn't live with me. She never wanted to see me again. About 6 months after NC was finally achieved, she began to change. Now OM is a distant memory.
I think I said early on that whether your WW is going to leave you forever or not has very little to do with you and what you are doing. You recognize that you made some mistakes. While you are still together, show her you are changing. She will accuse you of trickery. She will say it won't last. She will speak fiendish things. She is possessed by a demon. Don't listen to the words out of her mouth. Everything she says, she says with the intention of hurting you more. Bend like the willow.
For your WW to give upthe A and return to you will be very difficult for her personally. I have a whole chapter of amateur psychology written on the subject. None of that matters. This is a step by step process. Your first step is to strip away the fanatsy of the A, make the A as ugly as possible for WW and as inconvenient as possible for OM (while not breaking the law). Let WW demonstrate to the world that she is the one destroying this M. Let her own the result.
She may ultimately leave you. If she does, it will not be for your mistakes - it will be for hers.
When I was in your place, my ego was shattered. I had to find a focus. One of those things women in labor do to help survive the pain. I set my sights on one thing that gave me strength and never took them off.
If you want to see what a wreck is, just go back and read my original threads. You may feel alone but you are not.
I had a chat with my WW a few days ago. Argument actually. I told her it was a shame that she had sacrificed her one true love - her soul mate. She said her story was just like anybody else's. It was never real. It just seemed like it at the time.
You cannot fight the A head on. You cannot stand toe-to-toe with OM and win in WW's eyes. That was that part that was the worst for me. So you need to get OM out of the picture. NC.
Exposure - I did. Her friends, my friends, her family, my family - pretty much everyone.
Her insistence was that she had not done anything wrong because she had not yet had sex with him...
Now the update. I had been praying for a sign from God as to my wife's intentions - when I saw him pull up to her house, that was it.
After arguing with her for about an hour that nite, I went home and finished her mothers day gift - a photo album going all the way back to 1987 - when we first met. I did it right too - little handwritten notes throughout - purpose of the album was to show her that it has been good - that she's forgotten thos things... I also wrote a letter very similar to the one in SAA cutting her off from me. physical / emotional / financial etc support. Explaining that I loved her more now than ever, but that I cound not continue this 'in between' life where she was seeing him, and saying that she was working on 'us' while livin at her moms and not having any responsibility...
She showed up home Saturday night - apologized for over an hour, begged me to forgive her and told me how wrong she had been to get the OM into our issues. Admitted that bringing in OM only complicated, not helped our issues, etc. All of the things she had been denying for weeks. So - I have taken her back in, and she is committed to working on us the right way.
She's understanding about the email, phone and message review by me. I have also offered her that same level of access to my stuff.
She's a little annoyed that I'm continuing to work from home - 'smothering' - and I'm concerned over that - and her potential for relapse is high, I know.
What can I do to reconnect? read/implement HNHN? I've read SAA and am using the concepts in it to watch what I say, avoiding lovebusters, etc. She won't read anything I suggest, and is hesitant to even listen. I don't want to push anything on her but what can I do - just my half of trying to reconnect/restore loving feelings?
1) Be fully prepared for her to contact OM again. Many will.
2) Be prepared for what you will do if she does. You can go everal ways on this - none is necessarily wrong. My only suggestion is don't react - be prepared.
3) Don't even try to reconnect. Not yet. Give her time. Just be friends for the moment if you have to.
4) Do your best Plan A. Make those changes that you know you need to make in the M. Don't backslide. You should make those changes anyway so just do it.
5) She is annoyed you are working at home? She needs to just get over it. That's her problem - not yours. You have to do what you have to do to satisfy yourself. I took my WW on a business trip with me to Oman just so she would have no ability to contact OM. Expensive but worth it.
6) She is vulnerable to contact OM for 3-6 months easily. Each passing day makes her that much better off. She breaks NC? The clock starts over.
7) OM is not your problem. He never was your problem. Forget about OM unless he starts stalking WW and then rain he!!fire on his butt.
8) Don't force her to do anything. She will change her thinking with time. I used to work in a hospital. Back in those days, doctors would get patients hooked on morphine because the alternative pain was too great. Later they stayed in the hospital to come down off morphine. I have held some of them in my arms. I have killed imaginary bugs. I have done many things to help those people through withdrawal. None of it made much sense. But it helped them I guess.
Don't try to be romantic with WW. Just be her friend. Romance will come in time.
Also found out last nite that he lives in this neighborhood. She says he's not the stalking type, that he's not like that, that she told him to go away and he'll do waht she says.
However, I am a guy. If I was infatuated with a woman I would have a very hard time honoring her requests. I hope he wouldn't be foolish enough to stalk / peep / whatever.
She said she met him out in a bar when we were out with friends. she said she's never seen his truck anywhere in our neighborhood. She says he doesn't go to the pool, or the fitness center (where she's been every day for the past 2 mos.) and that she's never once been to his house, or him to ours.
I just can't trust her. I told her I wanted to move and she called me nuts and several other things (not so nice!).
I'm moving slow. The things I talking to her about are low stress things. About spending more time together. About open communication. about reconnecting. She says she's all in.
She didn't have to tell me he lived here. But she did. She told me she's not going to lie to me any more - brutal honesty I think... That's a good sign, right?
she's out tonight at a Junior League meeting (voluteer women's organization) and has called to say that a couple of them are going out for wine after the meeting..
this was a frequent cover for meeting OM. Should i just chill, or offer to go meet them? She's continuing to say how she still needs some space to sort stuff out mentally - but I believe that to still be fogtalk.
In your current situation, like it or not, your WW must give up certain freedoms for a period of time to help you regain trust. That didn't happen.
So....
Does she have a cell? Call her. I'm actually 50-50 on this.
When she gets home, tell her without any anger or DJ how this has made you feel. You have that right. I'm 100% on this.
Now....
If your WW wants to have an A, she will. you cannot prevent that - ever. Is she backsliding with OM? I have no clue.
But you now have a few minutes of free time. What would you do if you found out she were? I told you before to be prepared. Think this through now so you don't react angrily if you find out she has. Plan your response so you can be strong and firm. I hope you never need to. I did. Five times.
Don't be a doormat. Do understand that many WW's do not break off the A cold turkey. You had a goal when you found out about this. I assume your goal hasn't really changed.
I told you before that the easy part was over and now the real work begins.
So what would be your Plan A response to learning she went to see OM - for whatever reason? Keep in mind that she may have gone to see him (if she even did) just to try to explain to him why she had to stop. For some reason that will never ever make any sense, women just are like this. Insanity I know but what are you gonna do? We can't change em and we can't kill em. I'm at a loss.
is making her leave better or worse? With her out, she has more freedom, I can't work plan A, but it establishes the ground rules...
When she committed to not seeing him before, and she did, I made her leave. Tough on kids, and I think she enjoyed being out. Not exactly what I had planned...
she just got in... a really LONG drive home (should have been ~30 min, was an hour) but she explained it as stopping for fries, caught by train, yada yada yada....
But she didn't go out w/ girls. But I believe she did go see him.
1) Plan A does not mean the A is over. Plan A is something you do while the A is still going on or WW is in withdrawal from a recently terminated affair. I went through 5 or 6 discoveries of renewed contact after NC was supposedly established. Each time I reacted somewhat differently. First time I got really mad and packed her bags. She begged for another chance. One time I simply ignored it and one time I really scolded her like a little child.
All my approaches were probably wrong to an extent. I will say that when I simply scolded her and told her how pathetic I thought she was and told her to continue to contact because I no longer cared because she wasn't worth it, I think that hurt her the worst. It is also the last contact incident I know of. I recommend you do NOT do that right out of the box. I think that was very extreme and I had a lot of time under my belt when that happened.
There is every possibility that your WW may continue contact with OM. You have to continue Plan A. Withdrawal is hard and not just because she has feelings for OM. It will be very hard for her to come back to you. You being critical and judgmental will only make it harder on her.
I do think you need to gain her respect. Don't let her think she can walk all over you. You do need to have clear boundaries and she needs to know what the consequences are if she violates them. You also need to be fully prepared to follow up on your threats. Do what you say you will do.
Right now I think you are strong enough to accept a little contact. Use that. With time and continued contact, it will become more difficult for you because you will progressively lose your love for your wife.
At the moment you don't know anything has happened. I wouldn't pry. I would tell her upon her return that you were upset. This has made you feel really bad and you want to POJA some groundrules for future excursions so she doesn't do this again any time soon.
She feels somewhat like a caged animal. She doesn't like being under the microscope. That is because she is not fully committed to the M and to protecting you. She will eventually get to that point but it is probably too soon yet.
I guess I don't think you should make a big issue about this since you don't really know that she is not out getting sloshed with her girlfriends. This IS how she hooked up with OM in the first place though. It is very rude of her to have done this.
I would tell her that marriage does not involve outsiders. You want to remain married to her and you want to keep your family intact. There is no place in your marriage for any OM. If she wants to continue with OM, she needs to make a choice. That choice will NOT include remaining under your roof. Let her make the choice to leave or cut off OM. Don't go to Plan B by forcing her out just yet. You need some serious Plan A time. This is the only opportunity you have to do that. You canNOT Plan A if she is out of the house.
I installed some keylogging software, and found today that between 7am and 10:30 she had traded something like 30 emails with him. She's lying to me, sat at breakfast this morning and told me to my face that she's dedicated to working on this independent of OM.
She's lying constantly - hasn't broken contact at all.
I'm hurt. I'm crushed. And I have to lay in bed next to this woman that holds my heart in her hands every night, that I know is having sex with another man, etc.
Don't knee-jerk. I was in this same position. WW lied to me, lied to MC, lied to IC, lied to everyone.
Plan A is exactly what you are in while she is seeing OM. Plan A does NOT predicate itself on the A being over nor does it require NC. NC is a goal - not a prerequisite.
Many people will say you should not be a doormat. I agree. Sort of. But let's look at the facts differently.
Ahe says she wanst to work on the M. What was it again that is keeping her from just backing up and leaving your house? Why is she even in your house? She left didn't she? And then came back? Why do you think she did that? The A is an addiction. Maybe she really does want the M but simply cannot give up OM? This is what happened to my WW. It got to the point where she could not rationalize it any more.
Great you got a keylogger. Do NOT let WW you know about the emails. If you confront her, she'll stop emailing and just find another way to communicate - one that you won't find. I would try to glean info from the emails about a planned meeting. I would then have a friend accidentally be at that meeting and have him/her approach WW and talk to her so she knew she was busted. I wouldn't go myself (unless I didn't actually have any friends). It's sad but funny how they react. I would email everyone about how friend caught WW. It is OKAY to lie to your WW right now. Protect your assets. Don't confront WW in the heat of anger.
Plan A is exactly what you need. Every day she is still with you is another day you can show her how much you love her and how much you are willing to change for her. I know all too well the inner turmoil this creates. It takes a strong person to deal with this.
I think what you should do is set a mental date. Decide how long you will continue to allow this before you go to Plan B. I hear six months is about a good target but mileage varies by conditions. Withdrawal is hard. WW is addicted. It is a chemical reaction in the brain. Seeing OM causes WW's brain to get a natural high. She is doing this because she is a weak person and can't break the addiction.
So catch her. Be ever vigilant. Expose when you catch her in the act. It is very possible that she is dying inside. She knows what she is doing is wrong. She knows OM is no future for her. She wants to blame anyone but herself for her actions. We BS's think WW's and OM's spend their entire time together laughing at us. That isn't what really happens.
So...step up your Plan A. Make whatever impression you want to. If she does leave, let her leave with a lasting impression of the great you - not the one you wrote about in the letter. Don't obsess about and dwell on OM. He is a loser. WW already knows this. I think there comes a point with some WW's that they continue the A almost as a form of self-punishment.
One other thing. Doormat. To me, doormat is when WW says "hey you watch the kids - I'm going to get laid at OM's house - don't wait up". Your WW is not aware that you are on to her. She is not treating you like a doormat. She is trying to respect your feelings albeit in a twisted and perverse way. I hope she is lying to IC because this would tell me that the A is dying. WW is trying to be a W but she just doesn't know how and her hormones are clouding her vision.
There do need to be consequences to her actions. I totally agree. Don't make idle threats. So, for the moment, I suggest you don't try to bring this to a confrontation. You need more Plan A time. You also need to work to catch her in the obvious lie and expose it. I promise you her time with OM is not all wine and roses. Not now. Not since you exposed her.
I have told you repeatedly that this is the hard part.That's okay. This is where you will gain her respect. I think your Plan A needs to be on top form right now. She is comparing you to OM. His stock is going down. What does your forecast look like?
Now that I am back from my 3:00AM ice-buying trip, I want to add one more thing regarding the case for patience.
I have to admit I do get annoyed when I hear people casually throwing out doormat/cake-eating so let's keep it in that context for a moment.
I have read that, for many people, affairs require compartmentalization. I tend to believe that. Most people could not do such an unnatural thing without that ability. We all compartmentalize to one degree or another. Most of us behave differently at work than we do at home, for example.
So let's say your WW was able to compartmentalize her A. That is necessary to maintain one's sanity. As long as you can keep those two worlds apart, your brain maintains the peace. The M and the A are like matter and anti-matter. Each is perfectly fine on its own but bring the two together and you get destruction.
You WW had convinced herself that the A was right and good and perfectly allowable. When she got home to you, she checked the A at the door and became housewife again. She eventually achieved a steady state condition or status quo.
Now she is exposed. Now her world no longer makes any sense. Everything she had so neatly lined up is all a shambles. Now she is trying to pick up the pieces. She is now faced with a jigsaw puzzle that can't be solved but she hasn't figured that out yet.
What I mean is that she now has to reprogram her brain to find a way to make it right to allow BS and OM to coexist in the same space. I am willing to bet that it is tearing her up inside this struggle. I bet she is twisting this Rubik's cube every which way night and day trying to solve it. Problem is this one can't be solved. Steady state is gone. She is now in a turbulent transient with now light at the end of the tunnel. I bet she is on her way to a nervous breakdown which is one of only two viable outcomes to her ordeal.
In short, time is helping you and it is destroying her and her A.
The other outcome is she simply snaps. She loses all touch with reality and everything she once believed about God, morals, marriage, etc. is just gone out the window. If that happens, you will be running to your divorce lawyer.
OM was the good guy in her life. He is now becoming the bad guy. He will pressure her. He will fight with her. She will lose her love for him. And you will be the white knight if you have a good Plan A.
I stopped my WW's A before it died. Looking back, I wish I had let it die on its own. Things would be far easier now, I think.
Just keep fighting for your family. Keep your happy thought.
It took about 6 months to finally establish NC. Whenever caught, my WW would find new ways to maintain contact. It was during this six month period when I really saw her come apart. When I confronted her with undeniable facts to refute her beliefs about OM, I would see her go into brain lock. During this time period, there were occasions when the voice coming out of her mouth was unknown. I was actually scared during these times. Not for my safety - but that WW would go insane. To an extent I think she was insane. She finally pulled herself out of it but it was a struggle.
One other thing. Doormat. To me, doormat is when WW says "hey you watch the kids - I'm going to get laid at OM's house - don't wait up". Your WW is not aware that you are on to her. She is not treating you like a doormat. She is trying to respect your feelings albeit in a twisted and perverse way.
Pijoitos:
I don't think I could disagree any more with you here. Your definition of doormat is certainly different than mine. But I have to seriously question what in the he** you are thinking when you infer that somehow a WS who is knowingly repeatedly betraying a BS in an ACTIVE and WILLFUL way is somehow respecting them and NOT treating them like a doormat.
In some ways, I would have MORE respect for a WS who throws it out there and says "watch the kids while I get laid"......over a WS who lies wilfully, mainupulates and conducts on going affairs under the guise of "trying to work it out". At least you know what you are getting there. I think you are sorely misguided here....but that is just my opinion.
Well I asked you this question before and never did get that answer. You said you would think about it.
Your definition of Plan A is do it as long as WW is being faithful. You are wrong. Recovery is when WW is being faithful.
If everyone followed your Plan A, there would be very few recovered marraiges. Your views are slanted. Reading your story, I canu nderstand why.
You seem to entirely circumvent the concept of withdrawal. I appreciate the fact that your are pessimistic at every turn. I just don't always see it as productive.
Yes I remember I got the doormat speech from you. Seems to be your favorite buzzword.
Pios - you were wrong about them getting together and making fun of me. You should read some of her emails...
Yes - she's lying to counselor, and to me, and not too surprisingly to OM as well. She said in an email to him tonite that she thinks I'm starting to come around to the concept of us being 'over'... couldn't be further from the truth.
I'm actually contemplating taking a leave of absence from work - when I told her that she freaked out - really - freaked out... told me how bad that would be, how I needed work to keep my life together, how she couldn't handle me being in the house for 8 hrs/day, etc etc etc... all the stuff you'd expect to hear from a WW that's trying to continue an A...
I can't wait to see what she writes him tomorrow. In her last email, she was making beach plans with him for next week, and hooking up @ my daughter's HS graduation on Monday. My oldest daughter's ceremony is on Monday, and they were talking about meeting in a stairway, yeah - like thats romantic!
Gosh, with me not having to work and all, I guess I can come along to the beach too!
I think you misunderstand. We think they make fun of us. We imagine worse things than really are.
So now you have some intel. Great. Have her caught. Get photos.
So your WW says it is all over with you. What did I say? Don't listen to anything coming out of her mouth. What do you expect her to tell OM? Keyloggers are a double-edged sword. They are good about telling you what she is going to do with OM. They are not a diary. They do not and cannot give you insights into the mind of WW.
All the while my WW was in MC and IC and telling us all that OM was history, the two were planning how she would leave us and go live with him - how she would like to get a job and how they would live happily ever after. It IS the fantasy. The A is a fantasy and their conversation is all about perpetuating that fantasy. The A feels good. She doesn't want it to end. But it will. One way or the other.
Stop trying to analysze everything she tells OM. It is a distraction and nothing more. Continue with exposure. Make the A ugly to her. Finding her and OM in a stairwell? Imagine her mother/best friend/pastor finding her there. Imagine her IC finding her there. This is not a problem dude - this is an opportunity.
I have been in your shoes. You are not out of this fight but you have to cut the A off. You have to kill it. Also, based on what you wrote in your letter to WW, I still think you need some serious time in the saddle of Plan A.
so suck it up, be nice, no LB's, and lots of 'nice me'...
right?
I surprised her big time tonite... I took her to her fave restaurant and then to a dance lesson. She had a good time, and asked if we could sign up for more.
I guess thats a good thing, unless she's planning on using these new steps on a cruise w her new man...
so suck it up, be nice, no LB's, and lots of 'nice me'...
That is one of the results of Plan A but not the intent of Plan A. But yes you are essentially right. And it sucks. And you will not be able to do that forever. The longer you do this, the less you will love your WW. That is why the time for Plan A is now while you still do care for her.
You are not responsible for the A. You do acknowledge that there were things you should have done differently. Make those changes. You cannot control your WW. Her choices are hers. Tha A is a fantasty. She lives that fantasy in her mind. Don't read too much into her emails.
I am at GMT +3 hours. Don't you sleep? I know I didn't when I was where you are at now.
Look, in deference to LM, I can't promise you that your WW will end the A. I am telling you that 1) you need to fight for your kids, 2) based on what you wrote, if your WW does leave, it would be better to leave her with a positive impression. I also know that fantasy affairs are like a giant soap bubble. They pop very quickly and leave no trace of their "beauty" but rather a big slimy mess.
In SAA, Dr. Harley told Jon to stay in Plan A for six months even though Sue was still seeing Greg. Jon saved his marriage AFAIK.
You do NOT want to be a doormat. You do deserve respect. Continue to expose WW. Every infraction. Expose it. Let her get caught. Neither she nor OM will like it much. The fact that she wants to conduct her A near your kids would simply piss me off. My WW did that and, when I found out, she never repeated it.
got home, checked email logs, looks like she got dumped today. Also saw in the emails that she was admitting how it started all about the 'great sex' - but she was getting emotionally attached.
So its been a good day and a bad day.
I am working my plan a.
She hates me (as expected). From what I can tell, a lot of it was the stress I was causing in his life. I folowed him home, sat in front of his house while he parked in the garage and rolled the door down really quick. I think that freaked him out.
If I see/hear anything else, I'll tell his boss, his mom, etc. So far I've only put pressure on WW side (friends, family, etc). I should have paid better attention and turned up the heat under him earlier.
If she got dumped, she will be really depressed. Give her some space. Don't try to force things out of her.
I will repeat and repeat - don't put too much faith in what you read in the emails. My WW also gave the great sex dialogue. Now that the A is over, she can't see any difference. The sex was great because it was exciting. It was exciting because of the risks she was taking.
Be careful stalking OM. You can get arrested for that. As long as WW got dumped, just keep watching to see that she stays dumped. If it is a permanent dumping, then her A is dead the natural way. This will greatly aid you in marital recovery.
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I should have paid better attention and turned up the heat under him earlier.
Absolutely you should have. Don't make that mistake again. Just don't break the law in the process.
Now it is more important than ever that you work your Plan A. Plan A is about you and making you the better person you know you need to be. Give your WW a little time to grieve the loss of her newly lost lover and then discuss and agree on a strategy for moving forward - like MC/IC, phone call to the Harleys. Just don't shove it in her face.
So, in short, be patient. Small steps. Don't expect an overnight miracle.
She says she doesn't want to hurt me, but doesn't want to work on us anymore. Doesn't want to put forth the EFFORT to make us good. (I guess she just doesn't see the value in saving what we have, as opposed to spending it in court on lawyers.)
She says we were never good. I know she's still in fog, and that she's comparing her revised memories of me to most recent ones of him, but this hurts bad.
She says that everyone can see that she's over me. Why can't I?
She's going to get a job (good and bad here). Says she's too dependent on me, and can't depend on me ever again. The good is it'll give her something to do to keep her busy, the bad is the additional distance/space it'll allow her to build between us. Also - I'm concerned that she'll use that space to reestablish contact or meet someone else... (just can't trust yet...)
She's stated she doesn't want to spend any more time with me than necessary. Just to get through the day, passing in the hall or bathroom is all she wants. She won't do the 15 hr deal she agreed to when she came back on mothers day...
She won't talk or even consider MC now - says this is her issue, not ours. (Back to where we were on DDay.)
She sounds just like my WW. Almost verbatim. Be patient. This is a woman who had psyched herself up to leaving you a day or two ago. What do you expect right now? Don't listen to the fog talk. Ignore it. Stay with your Plan A. Don't push her. Let her get through the withdrawal (and that means NC).
I know the things she says hurt. That is her intention. Don't let her win. Time is on the side of the M. The longer she is with you, the more likely she will stay with you. Withdrawal can take months. It might help her to get on ADs.
If she does ultimately leave, remember that you have no control over that. But when she leaves, you want to be able to remember that you did everything in your power to save the M.
I don't know you or your W. All I know is my WW did and said pretty much the exact same things your WW is saying right now. Today she no longer believes them.
I was going to mention, if you do plan on parking outside OM's house much more, you should investigate getting a PI license. One of the things a PI can do that you cannot is loiter legally.
absolutely amazing change in her from this morning to this afternoon...
I can't believe how quickly her emotions are cycling - almost like watching something out of a horror movie.
Morning - aloof, self confident. I'm the idiot. Afternoon - shell shocked, blank look in eyes, looks like she's about to cry every time I catch her sitting doing nothing. I'm the ****** that did this to her.
I hope OM stays away. She's so vulnerable right now. I bet if he asked her to just get up and walk out the door with him, she'd do it w/o a second thought.
God, just give me time! Grant me the patience to accept my lot right now, the strength to be a man and not lose my cool, and the wisdom to keep the long-term view.
Look. Try to put yourself in her shoes for a moment. Maybe open-toe sandals so you don't hurt yourself but her shoes nonetheless.
Imagine that you have just been caught doing the unthinkable. And worse yet - it all fell apart. Do you blame yourself? Do you accept responsibility for doing what you know to your core is wrong? Or do you blame someone else - anyone else. Do you blame the person who you have convinced yourself you hate because it was the only way to justify the way you have been behaving?
Who do you expect her to blame right now? You have to take this one for the team. She'll change in time. She will come back to reality. But not yet. So be strong. She can't help but respect that.
I highly recommend you look into ADs for her.
Something else that WW doesn't understand right now but you need to. OM could have been anyone. There was never anything special about him. Your WW was primed to have an A and he was the first target she found. If it hadn't been him, it would have been the next guy. It almost makes me wonder if she doesn't have a good friend who has done this recently.
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I bet if he asked her to just get up and walk out the door with him, she'd do it w/o a second thought.
I wouldn't bet my money on this. She wants to believe in the fantasy but something is keeping at least one of her toes on the ground. If she were to leave with him, she knows deep down that the fantasy would be dead.
I have said before - she is not in love with OM. She is in love with the affair.
I did send my WW off packing to OM and told her never to come back. She called me the next day begging me to take her back. I did. Only time will tell whether that was a right decision in my case. I did it because I still loved WW. I woke up this morning and today I love her. Feelings are strange.
I hope OM stays away. She's so vulnerable right now.
And what is your plan if he doesn't or she pursues him? I don't know if it will happen or not. I do suggest you be prepared for the contingency. I say this because I am betting it will be hard for your WW to let go of the A. It is hard because the alternative is for her to look into herself and she is afraid that what she will see is not pretty.
Personally I think her A is dead or dying. It will never ever be what she had imagined. Even she realizes that now. Where do you plan to be when the dust settles?
How are the kids handling this BTW? How are you protecting them?
my plan? I guess I continue with plan A for a while longer... regardless of her choices.
Kids - lets see, D17 is the only one that knows details, and she's pretty much messed up over this. She's a diagnosed cyclothymic (think mild bipolar) and it hasn't helped. D14 and S12 know that mom and dad aren't happy lately, were crushed when mom left for a week, but are happy to have her back. Moms a much better cook than dad.
I believe its dying as well. I think that OM is just a 26 yr old kid looking for a no strings good time with a great girl with a fantastic bod and unbelievable personality. The drama and strings of having a psycho husband and lots of baggage (HOPEFULLY!) just got to be too much when measured out.
I will work towards getting her on AD's. She resisted when I discussed it before... interestingly enough, one of the emails she went back thru this afternoon was one on withdrawal... like NOW she needs it, not last Sun when she told me she had quit the A.
Piojitos - I can't tell you how very much I appreciate your candor, advice, and sharing your own trials/tribulations, and the difference it makes knowing that someone out there hears what I'm saying and can understand me. I've got a lot of close friends - interestingly, my wifes two closest friends are sisters, and the friends are their husbands... Both the sisters have had A's in the last 6 years... and both have been CONSTANTLY railing WW over her choices, etc.
I've got a lot of close friends - interestingly, my wifes two closest friends are sisters, and the friends are their husbands... Both the sisters have had A's in the last 6 years... and both have been CONSTANTLY railing WW over her choices, etc.
Go find new friends. Seriously. Avoid these friends like the plague. What is more important? A few friends or your marriage? If they are real friends, they'll understand your choice.
I think that OM is just a 26 yr old kid looking for a no strings good time with a great girl with a fantastic bod and unbelievable personality.
Please don't take this wrong. I'm sure you think your WW is the most beautiful, spectacular,desireable woman in the world. You are wrong however. My WW is. The best your WW can hope to achieve is 1st runner-up. In the event that my WW is unable to fulfill those duties, your WW can take over those responsibilities.
Don't mistake the way you view your WW for the way OM views her. You see her that way because you love her. And that is a good thing.
What I noticed is that I started seeing my WW as attractive but no longer Miss Universe. Then I started seeing her as interesting. As love fades, so will the glow of your WW dim. As long as you still see her as 1st runner-up (1st place already taken), I would stay in Plan A.
Another suggestion. Your WW doesn't really need a husband right now - she needs a friend. Be her best friend. It won't be easy. It will be hard for her to discuss things with you because she won't want to hurt your feelings. If you invite her to anyway, swallow the pain. You need to be there for her at this moment. Being a BS in Plan A simply sucks. There is very little good about it.
why find new friends? Both are BH's, both have been through he!! to get back to where they are in their marriages, and both are supportive of me. Listening, praying, playing golf, etc.
Aren't those the kinds of supportive friends that you should surround yourself with?
Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you said friends' wives were encouraging your WW's affair behavior. If they are pro-marriage, by all means keep them.
You should never tolerate affair enablers in your life. Even if they are best friends. An enabler is anyone who doesn't think an A is abhorrent. You can't be Switzerland in regard to affairs. There is NO neutral position. The only acceptable policy for enablers is "nuke em". If Switzerland weren't so close to Italy, I'd nuke them too. Maybe I could wait for a day that the wind was blowing due west....two birds with one nuclear weapon...Yeah, that's it! That's the ticket!
Came home from the pool today, sat down and read two long emails that each of my parents wrote her... as you can imagine, they were less than flattering or congratulatory on recent events. She flipped out. Said this is why its irrepairable, this is why its not worth it, and that she doesn't deserve this. Immediately started talkingabout me moving out and going to see anlawyer on Monday for a legal separation.
I am trying to calm her down, but not with much luck. She went out for a 'drive', came back an hour later, still fuming, and said she's meeting her two girlfriends (prev discussed) for a glass of wine to vent.
Hopefully they can talk some sense into her. I am staying calm, not defending my parents, not getting judgemental, etc, but she's using the lawyer word really quickly now.
Okay don't fret the lawyer too much. That is a pretty common threat. OTOH this is fairly serious and one of the bigger risks. I would talk to your parents and ask them to back off. Tell them you want to work to save the M but you need them to give you time. My family (and my WW's family) were all well intentioned and all against the A but it got to the point where I had to tell them all to just shut up. Too many variables that you have no control over. I also told them I didn't want their advice either. Trust me - they were NOT qualified to give any.
Withdrawal is a good thing. It will have to happen. Just do your best to be her friend, assure her, remind her you love her and will do anything to help her. Each day will get slightly better. ADs will help her too. Avoid arguments. Avoid LB's and DJ's. Stay with Plan A. NC is critical right now. You're doing great. Stay strong. Believe it or not, everything you are observing is normal.
How can I use the word "normal" right now? Affairs are just strange. They defy logic.
I just wanted to add that addicts don't go into withdrawal if they are still taking the drug. But they crave the drug to remove the pain of withdrawal. If OM did dump her as you believe, her source has been cut off. So she is like a trapped animal and will probably react like one. Remember not to take to heart anything she says right now. She is in pain and would love nothing more than to share it with you. So don't let her. Now is the time you have to be really strong. No matter how much the things she says hurt, swallow it.
First thing you should do every day before you talk to WW is ask yourself what your goal is. Don't let that goal change until the next day. Don't change horses midstream. Don't allow distractions. Don't get up in the morning and tell yourself you want the M and then at noon decide on divorce. If you decide for divorce, you can certainly wait 18 hours or so. In other words, sleep on it.
My WW hid her withdrawal from me. I think that was a combination of pride and shame but I don't know for sure. I do know that your WW is not "herself" right now. One way or another she will eventually come out of withdrawal. The worst of it won't last long.
You may get to the point that she no longer wants the M because she is ashamed and feels she doesn't deserve it. My WW did this. I have to tell you this is just one "joy" after another. Just when you think it can't get any worse, it does. And THEN when you think it can't possibly get even worse than THAT...surprisingly it doesn't. And it starts to get better.
But you need to make sure she stays away from OM. Any contact will just make this thing drag out ad nauseum.
So how are you holding up in all this? Have I told you lately that Plan A sucks? In case I haven't, it does. And when your WW's face turns green and her head does a 360 spin and she accuses you of being responsible for Pluto, just remember that my WW already laid the blame for that one on me. You might accept responsibility for the polar ice absorbing less CO2 than expected. My WW hasn't hit me with that one yet.
The most important thing for you to be right now is consistent. I don't care what consistent means to you but be it whatever "it" is. Even if you have to lie. Your WW's emotions are all over the place. You need to be a constant. You have to be the anchor. You don't trust her right now and with good reason. What you may not understand is that she doesn't trust you either. In all of her insane ramblings, she is lucid enough to watch you. She is looking for chinks in your armor. If you say one thing on a day and something different the day after, she will pick up on it. Part of her withdrawal process is learning to trust you.
If I cheated on my W and she told me she loved me and wanted me back, my first instinct would be not to believe her. Why would she? It would be an obstacle for me to get myself back into the M. I think my WW still has these feelings after two years. I made a lot of mistakes in my Plan A. My biggest mistake was inconsistency. Be a better man than me. It pays off.
I come home, and she's been on my PC and found a copy of an email that I saved. So now she knows I know about the 2nd email address... She flipped. Saying I'm psycho, why do I want to be with her when she can't stand me, etc.etc.
She said she was going to a lawyer on Monday to do a legal separation, etc. I responded back with its too soon, you haven't even stopped your affair and you're discussing separation, and on and on.
It was only when I threatened to tell OM's mom that she shut up. I don't know the whole story, but evidently something bad must have happened to OM that makes him freak out about his parent's finding out. That also explains why he told her to stop calling/texting/writing him until after our marriage was sorted out. He absolutely is freaked about me contacting his family.
And today is graduation, and she has to be around my parents (who know all, of course)... It was very uncomfortable for everyone - even the kids sensed something was off.
So here we sit - she's here but doesn't want to be, and is vocal about it to her friends and me. I'm here trying to be Mr nice and putting up with it. So we're in somewhat of a standoff...
I guess the questions are, how long do I wait? Until I no longer find her attractive emotionally? Until I hate her? Or until she cracks and calls him? (I believe she's using the house phone now to call him so I can't see who she's calling, anyway)
And - should I also call OM and leave him a voicemail stating that with any further contact with my wife I'll go to his mom??
I know that exposure is highly recommended, but if I expose this to his mom, I lose my last 'threat' with my wife, and she's out the door...
It was only when I threatened to tell OM's mom that she shut up.
So what exactly is stopping you? If the A is ongoing, expose...expose...expose. Of course it will piss her off. She may even go to a lawyer. So what? You might just "nice" your way to divorce if you keep this up. Until you kill this A, you have no hope.
You are reminding me of how the USA sent videos of the MOAB to Saddam before the war. If you have a weapon that you don't intend to use, it isn't a weapon.
How long do you keep this up? First tell OM's mom and then start a timeline. Right now all you are doing is killing your love for your WW. And you can't keep it up for long.
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should I also call OM and leave him a voicemail stating that with any further contact with my wife I'll go to his mom??
No. Don't make threats - take actions. Just call his friggin' mom already. I'm sure she will let him know you called. Also, don't leave a paper trail. I'm sure you will get that voice mail played back to you at your divorce hearing if it comes to that.
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I know that exposure is highly recommended, but if I expose this to his mom, I lose my last 'threat' with my wife, and she's out the door...
I contend that if you don't she will be out the door eventually unless you boot her out first. You are in the fight of your life. Don't leave any bullets in the gun.
And I can tell you from experience that more weapons always avail themselves.
This is just my POV. I have said before that whether your WW stays or goes has very little to do with you right now. It sounds like you two are in a Mexican standoff. You threaten OM's mom, she counters with lawyer.
Pull the trigger.
The worst action you can take right now is inaction. You have to kill the A. You have to get NC. You already suspect she is calling. Get a phoneline recorder and install it. That's what I did and it is how I found out my WW was lying to me. I only used it for a week but it was enough.
You cannot run a prison. You cannot control your WW's behavior. If she wants to have an A, she will have an A regardless of your level of vigilence.
Stop trying to prevent her from taking the drug. Take the drug away completely. As long as that drug is available, it is a temptation she will not be able to resist.
I got hold of OM's cellphone. I called everyone in his phonebook. AFAIK, OM never called my WW again. Tell everyone anything you want as long as you have proof. Avoid slander.
OM's mom can't be much older than your WW. I'm sure that fact won't be lost on her.
she says if I am recording calls w/o her knowledge she's out and gone, AND calling the police because she knows its against the law.
I'm in slowdown mode right now... trying to keep things calm for everyone, esp kids, as we still have two in the house with a couple of weeks of school left.
Since I followed OM home and freaked him out, he has only emailed once, and that was to tell her not to confirm that it was him in the truck that I followed... they may be on the phone, but I don't think so.
I'm working for a couple of weeks of calm first, then take it from there.
Do you mind if I ask you what, at this particular time, you are really afraid of?
This has nothing to do with what you are doing or not doing. I just think it will be helpful to you right now to start asking yourself some fundamental questions. I think it helps clear your vision and will aid your personal healing.
So what do you fear most right now? It can be anything.
Now is a good time to start looking within. I believe this will be a good thing for you.
I will tell you that when I was where you are now, my greatest fear was losing my children and #2 was not knowing how I could live without my wife because it was a totally foreign concept to me.
Maybe your greatest fear is snakes. I hate snakes too.
And - should I also call OM and leave him a voicemail stating that with any further contact with my wife I'll go to his mom??
I know that exposure is highly recommended, but if I expose this to his mom, I lose my last 'threat' with my wife, and she's out the door...
No, she's out the door if you don't because the affair will become more entrenched. Why do you think they are so afraid of this exposure? Because they know it would be ruinous to the affair. This exposure would ruin EVERYTHING. His parents may threaten to kick him out if he doesnt stop seeing her. It also ruins ANY FUTURE HOPE of this relationship becoming anything else if his mother knows your wife is married, because she would never be allowed to darken their doorstep.
You have a POWERFUL weapon in your hands, FL, and you are refusing to use it. WHY? You have to stand up for your family and do what is right for them. If this exposure will end/ruin this affair, whyever in the world would you not do it?
WHY? Because she might get mad? If that is the case, I would emphasize to you that the goal here is to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, not to avoid making her mad at all costs. If your WW does not get mad, then that means you are just appeasing her. Appeasing her will not save your marriage when she is hellbent on destroying it.
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She said she was going to a lawyer on Monday to do a legal separation, etc. I responded back with its too soon, you haven't even stopped your affair and you're discussing separation, and on and on.
Are her threats of "filing" what is stopping you from doing anything to help yourself? If this is the case, be assured that ALL waywards make the THREAT of "filing" when you interfere with the affair. It is almost always empty TALK designed to get you to stop interfering. Even if they do "file," which is very rare, it is even rarer that it ever goes to divorce.
BUT, i predict this WILL go to divorce if you CONTINUE TO PROTECT THE AFFAIR by keeping their dirty secret. You are enabling your own demise, my friend. And this is going to get much worse unless you get up and do something. STOP PROTECTING THE OM. You are supposed to be on YOUR SIDE, not HIS.
Go and tell his mother and dad TODAY about the affair, FL. Stop being scared and stand up for your family.
I'm sorry to hear that. The kids and I will miss you here at HOME. How do you want to be sure that each of us is taking care of our finances from this point forward?
In other words her moving out doesn't mean she gets/keeps everything (kids, furtnitire, memberships, cars, etc) except on FL_Blindsided. That's not how this works.
Also, expose to OM's parents now not later and finish off this little affair so that she truly does have to think about going this alone. A little reality if you will.
See your attorney on the sly to let them know what's going on and that you are still trying to save your M but need to get things in order just in case.
wife is leaving, moving out. Says she can't take it anymore.
Wants to get an apartment, etc.
I am getting close to losing hope here.
She wants to move out so she can resume her affair in PEACE. The OM is probably SCARED of you and won't touch her with a 10 foot pole until she is seperated.
This is your cue to take action to RUIN the affair before it becomes more entrenched. You would ruin the affair if you would go knock on the OM's momma's door and tell him's mommy and daddy that he is acting trashy with a married woman. I suspect this would be ruinous to the affair. The infidels are TERRIFIED of this exposure.
But, if you continue on your path of doing nothing, the affair will become MORE entrenched.
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I am getting close to losing hope here.
If you won't do anything to help yourself, you are right to lose hope. But it doesn't have to be that way. You do have weapons in your arsenal that could save your marriage if you will only use them.
Go knock on the OM"s mother's door. Introcude yourself as the father of three children, married to the women that her son is sleeping with. You must protect your children and marriage and you can't do that if you allow it to continue. God knows, that if my OW's H had had the balls to let me know about my WH's A it would have stopped one year earlier. Alot less pain and on going interaction. Your WW will threat,, scream, and may do things you don't want. She already is!! See your attorney to ensure your children's financial state. Cut off the cell phone. Make her afford her lifestyle if she chooses to go it on her own. You do not support, should not support her A and lifestyle required to maintain it. Your younger two children should also know about the affair. That it isn't just "we are having some problems right now" but that mom's behavior is unacceptable to the marriage and family. No LB'ing. Plan A. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Take your own time out. Come here to vent. Good Luck
<rant> I can't believe how selfish she's being!!! She's telling me how she needs an apartment, that her mom's isn't good enough because she needs to be 'alone', and all that other crap! I know the only reason she wants an apartment is to be able to have him anytime she wants - AHHGGHHGGH!!! this sucks!!!! She can't see what she's doing to the kids, to me, and on and on... she tells me she loves me, isn't 'in love with me' and therefore can't be with me when she's got such strong feelings for another guy... AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!
<rant off>
sorry for that - but its better to come out here than on her.
She will absolutely bankrupt us... I am watching my job slip away, my career tumble, my bank accounts drop, I just took a 30k cut in pay due to having to give up some key functions @ work, and she insists this is her issue, not ours.
She admitted to calling him today to 'ask him a question'... wouldn't tell me what it was, but was important enough for her to break NC.. (as if she's really kept it...)
Piojitos - you were right, this is hard - I don't think I can do it any more...
I'm on AD's now for 5 days - don't seem to be helping with anything other than sleep. (sleep was much needed!!)
What are her rights if she files separation papers? What do I owe her? What can she legally take if she leaves? She's using the "L" word (Lawyer, unfortunately not Love) a lot. She has lots of attorney friends, and I'm sure they are counseling her as to her rights.... so I guess I need to go spend some $$ to see what mine are.
Am planning on dropping the bomb on OM's parents the second she steps out the door. Can't really explain here, but there are other factors at play that are causing that delay.
As hard-headed as my wife is, I don't expect her to come back any time soon. This could be a LONG deal, and I don't have the $$ for that. Or attorneys. And since she has no $$, I have to pay for hers as well, I guess.
this really sucks... a month ago I thought I was golden... best job, exploding career, company was taking off, greatest kids, and of course the most loving and wonderful wife in the world... and now most of that has been shattered. (sorry for the pity party, but typing it out is somewhat cathartic...)
As hard-headed as my wife is, I don't expect her to come back any time soon. This could be a LONG deal, and I don't have the $$ for that. Or attorneys. And since she has no $$, I have to pay for hers as well, I guess.
No, you don't. You shouldn't pay her a cent unless it is court ordered. Make her work for everything. Cut off her money and she can't get legal help unless she goes to work.
But, nothing is going to change until you start fighting this affair, FL. You have a powerful weapon in your hand and i see no reason why you should not use it. I would expose the OM and your W right now before she leaves. If you ruin her affair, she may not leave.
You are believing your wife too much. Make EVERYTHING as difficult as you can. Tell her to get a job as you will need the child support. Expose, expose, expose. When the affair ends, you will see a different person.
If she files, and the OM sees he may be stuck with a woman with 3 kids, he will disappear. You have all of the power. Use it. Be calm and hard.
I'm telling you man to man, the only wrong thing you can do is nothing. Get off your [censored]. Use every weapon you can think of. What is the worst that can happen? Your wife might leave you? Wake up! You are screwing up big time right now.
When I was in your position (and this is absolutely true), I went out and bought the soundtrack to Rocky and I played that Rocky theme over and over. You are down. You are beat up pretty badly. But you are NOT out. Now get up and start swinging like you had a purpose. Time to kick some [censored].
came home from spending some time with friends, wife was already in bed... checked my email spy software and found a 2pg letter my wife sent to OM.
That sent me over the edge.
I called her names, I said hurtful stuf back that I'd been holding off of for a long time, and she left and went to moms.
I also called OM again, as well as OM's mommy... As I was doing it, my wife was threatening me - 'call and I'll never speak to you again'... I asked if I could please get that in writing...
ok, here is the thing....you have recieved so much advise the last few days but you are doing NOTHING....you need to get out of your pity party, dust off your clothes and ACT. you need to expose, methodically. OM's mum should be told, immediately. You need to cut off all financial support. You need to take deep long breaths and clear your head. Its not easy, but you have to do something. Your wife seems to be having the upper hand here, and you should be calling the shots. Please remember that it will get better. It looks bleak, but it will get better. But please please start acting...please...
I called her names, I said hurtful stuf back that I'd been holding off of for a long time, and she left and went to moms.
Good for you!
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I also called OM again, as well as OM's mommy... As I was doing it, my wife was threatening me - 'call and I'll never speak to you again'... I asked if I could please get that in writing...
About friggin time!
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So - anger 1, FL_blindsided 0...
By my count it's FL_blindsided 2, affair 1
This is nothing in the greater scheme of things. This is a course correction. This blow up will not alter the direction of events to come. This is great. Now get back to Plan A or B but get back to a plan.
I also called OM again, as well as OM's mommy... As I was doing it, my wife was threatening me - 'call and I'll never speak to you again'... I asked if I could please get that in writing...
Did you expose to his parents? Thats all I want to know.
she came back over to the house later this morning and we talked for a couple of hours. Spent some time talking to the kids, explaining whats going on, and what we're doing.
She's set on being at her mom's, finding a job, and getting her own apartment. I'm trying to work a great plan A, avoiding LB's as I was last week.
We changed out her cellphone to her name (took her off our plan) this is both bad and good. I was obsessing about checking her calls/messages, to the point of being psycho. At least this way I can't check (or obsess).
Space is going to be good for both of us. I think. The apartment will be bad. I know. I need her home.
we met our oldest daughter out at the mall this evening, and afterwards went and ate dinner together (just her and me). It was nice, no calls from ANYONE, and we really seemed to enjoy each others company. She gave me a big hug and even a good kiss... Regardless of what I felt last night, I still love her and want her home.
You know? I've heard that some BS's obsess. I personally can't imagine ANYONE doing such a silly thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
It is good that you have taken the cellphone temptation away. Look, I know this is killing you. One rule: don't ever let em see you sweat. You have to "appear" to be the Rock of Gibralter even though you are not. Look at your WW as you would a strange rottweiler - show no fear.
What is your belief? To me it sounds like she wants freedom to conduct her affair without your influence. Will she agree to give up custody while she is "on vacation"? How are your kids handling this? Just remember, no matter how angry or depressed you may get, never talk bad about Mom to the kids.
When talking to your WW, don't "over-communicate". Keep talk simple. Don't act interested in what she is doing. She needs to understand that you are beginning to move on with your life (even though you aren't actually doing that). You need to remove her safety net.
from what I can piece together from multiple conversations we've had over the past 5 weeks, my letter to her in January (earlier post), my verbally abusive behavior (dDec-Feb), and the shock of discovering that she COULD end up alone is what sent her on this mission for self-sufficiency. Finding another man appears to just be one part of the bigger picture. (Finding that she could still attract a much younger man is another issue!) She is also focusing on the lack of a career, and her failure to complete college as other pieces she wants to get in line.
She told me today that she wouldn't put the kids through a custody battle, that she thinks since its now summer we should encourage them to stay with who they want to stay with - either here @ home w me, or at her moms with her. Based on how that goes, she said she wants to consider either a 2 or 3 bdrm apartment later this summer once she finds a job.
Giving her space this time - not a fullblown plan B, but much closer to it than before. I will not be calling her 24/7, texting her, checking up on her, etc. As a wise person once told me, if she's going to cheat, she's going to cheat. All I can do by engaging in those activities (LB's for her) is push her that much further away.
Believer posted me the Dobson post many times. I was reluctant to listen at first. After a while, it made sense. It made so much sense that I was absolutely ready for WW to go. She, as true to the post, decided that her freedom wasn't all she thought it might be. She was so reluctant, in fact, that I darn near got arrested in the Miami airport. It is funny now but wasn't then.
To an extent, we all want to be self-sufficient. I noted in an earlier post that you were not happy about her getting a job. I decied maybe that was just because of the A. Regardless, it is a sign you are trying to control her. You want her to be dependent on you. Let her go. Give her the freedom she wants to fulfill her life in positive ways.
The A was an act of desperation. She wants something that she isn't getting. She knows the A with a 26 YO mamma's boy isn't going to enrich her life. I could give you the cat peeing on the carpet story but a) people complain and b) you can search for it if you are that interested.
Act supportive in all the positive things she wants to do. School? Absolutely. Job? Great idea. There is nothing wrong with those things. They don't lead to affairs.
Remember Plan A is about you. You need to continue to become a better you regardless of what WW is doing.
My WH left almost three months ago. Since then, (in the beginning) we spoke fairly often, but now, the past few weeks, I have not heard from him once (although, have been told he has asked about me to friends)
Did I silently let him go... without having to say the words?
I understand it is a way of thinking. What I meant is the fact that you basically have to let them go and do what they want to because anything else would appear as controlling... so, in a way, it can be considered a method as well.
Piojitos - thanks for the dobson post. Yes - that is exactly what I need to do. Now I just need to figure out how to be strong and let her go, w/o stressing where she is, who she's with, who she's talking to what she's doing (*or WHO shes doing!)
as you can pick up in my thread here, I have significant control issues!!!
I will continue my plan A, w her at mom's, and be strong and not needy.
Now I just need to figure out how to be strong and let her go, w/o stressing where she is, who she's with, who she's talking to what she's doing (*or WHO shes doing!)
You will know when you are letting her go when you stop doing those things. It took me months to get to that point.
Someone has said that the one who wants the relationship the least is in control. I swear it is true. I've been at this going on two years, bordering on but not quite getting to recovery and I promise you it is as true today as it was two years ago.
In my case I think I would need a shotgun to get rid of that darn bird.
I think there are some things you can start telling yourself that help. Things like:
1) Who IS this woman??? 2) Is this person really making me happy at this point in my life? 3) This one used to make me happy. There are plenty more out there and many of them would be happy to have a great guy like me (i.e. "you" me - not "me" me). 4) I want love back in my life again some day.
You are where you are because you love your wife and family. Detaching is a good thing but if WW comes back to you, getting reattached is difficult. Even so, you have to preserve your sanity.
Don't think about your WW so much in past tense. Who is she right now? Try to look at her that way.
She has told you all her dreams, what she has missing in her life, and how you have held her back from oall these things.
Agree with her.
Does she want to work? Fine. She needs to pay for her car, apartment, Health Ins, Food and Child Support.
Or, she can end her A and get a job.
Wants to complete her College degree?
Great, How much does that cost?
If she ends her A, you will find a way to pay for it.
Oh, and BTW, if you move out, she still needs to pay for her Apartment, Health Ins., car, food and child support. And then college.
Your not controlling her.
If she wants to do things, she can. All she has to do is talk to you about what she would like to do. Like Married people do all the time.
You didn't get here overnight. Do not think that it is going to resolve itself overnight.
You say you are successful in your job.
Think about this as if you had lost one of your best accounts. And it wasn't your fault. WHAT would you do to get back that business?
And stop thinking that your life was a bed of roses six months ago. It was built on fallacies. That Life bred an A in your life. So there were alot of things wrong.
You have told the OM, and the OM MOTHER to leave your WW alone.
At this point, he is no longer your concern.
Other exposure targets are.
Your Children. And not the "Mommy and Daddy are having problems" No this: Mommy has decided that she wants to move out so that she can continue dating another man. This is unacceptable to me. SHE will no longer be allowed to live in our house until this unacceptable relationship ends.
Her mother: Repeat the above. "MIL, your daughter was not able to do the things she wanted to do in your home, so she needs more room.
WHO else?
And then you Plan A her.
And contact your Lawyer to get your ducks in a row.
No money?
Guess what? If you remain as passive as you have been, your W's OM (or future OM) will get to live in your house, with your kids, while you pay her support and about $1,500 a month in child support.
How much money will you have then?
The initial consultation may cost $500. But you will KNOW where you stand. And WW? Still grasping, because she is only going on cocktail advice.
I noticed in your last few posts that you were getting angry. Good. Now you are ready to fight.
she's reset her email and cellphone passwords and I can't see her activity any more. Does she deserve secrecy? What's the appropriate level of privacy, vs secrecy?
I tried to define it for her - she told me F#$ off and stay out of her business...
There should be no need or entitlement for privacy in a marriage. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. It is independent behavior and a smoke screen to continue her affair. No private emails and cell phone passwords. You won't have recovery without that and NC with her affair partner for life.
Read at the following link (if you haven't already done so):
She only wants secrecy to hide something. She should not do those things in a healthy marriage. Never hide anything from your spouse. Who pays for the cellphone? Who pays the internet? One rule I established is that if my WW wanted to conduct an A, it would never be on my dime. I told her by spending my paycheck on her affair, she was stealing food off her childrens' plates. To the best of my knowledge, she never spent a cent on the A again.
Where is WW now? Keep the pressure on. The A is already nothing like she expected or wanted. You have already pretty much ruined it for her. You need to remain solid as a rock. It was about 11 months for me before things really began to turn around. It isn't easy.
WW is still @ her mom's, supposedly going out to dinner this evening w/ her mom who just got off work.
I agree that secrecy is a sign of wanting to hide something... how can I convince her of that? What works in trying to convince her that its not me controlling, only wanting to protect my marriage and that secrets are bad.
She's moved the cellphone into her name. On her SS #, on her credit. So the $$ thing doesn't really fly (at least until the bill comes due!)
I'm offering to pay for cable & internet @ her mom's if it will keep her there and get her off the apartment kick.
I made some game plan changes in the last couple of days with how we were communicating, primarily following the Dobson editorial. I have to be the guy she loved years ago, that convinced her to spend the rest of my life with, that convinced her to move across the country and away from all of her family/friends.
I told her she could have all the space she wanted, and that she could afford. Told her I wouldn't call her unless it was related to the kids. Told her to call me if she wanted to talk. She's noticed the change... Actually came up and hugged me and told me she missed me when she dropped the kids off this afternoon. And I was all sweaty and covered in grass and dirt from mowing for an hour. That's a BIG CHANGE for her. (she's not a big fan of sweaty me.)
After I had the "you call me when you want to talk to me" speech, I started doing pushups every time I started to get mentally worked up over where she was, or what she was doing... man - my shoulders are killing me today! I must have done a couple of hundred over the past two days. Benefit will of course be my muscled up physique... negative is my sore shoulders and elbows.
Yes and no. You do have to correct the behaviors where you have fallen down but she may not be the same person she was years ago. Myabe the same things are not as attractive to her now. Maybe she wants other qualities today. All interesting questions and all a total waste of time.
Okay I like the pushups while obsessing idea. Aversion therapy with positive results. Let's make a deal. Every time you begin to obsess over where WW is or what she is doing, no matter where you are, who you are with or what you are doing, drop and do 20. I'm serious. Just try it for a few days and you will see what I mean. I don't care if you are on aisle 6 at Walmart. Just do it. This is positively brilliant.
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I'm offering to pay for cable & internet @ her mom's if it will keep her there and get her off the apartment kick.
I think this is a mistake. If she is going to have an affair, she will do it. Let go. This is attempted control and is a "weak" FLB. Mom is not a babysitter. Mom will not prevent anything.
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I agree that secrecy is a sign of wanting to hide something... how can I convince her of that?
Don't waste time trying. Simply state your POV and leave it at that. Don't argue about it. Why should you argue when she is wrong and you are right. If she stops the affair, establishes NC and survives withdrawal, you won't have to convince her of anything.
Maybe I haven't told you this. Pick your battles. Some can be won and some can't. Don't face every attack head on. Learn where you can best spend your efforts. Choose wisely. Remember that, of the two of you, you are the only one who has a plan. WW is totally out of control.
Piojitos - so how do I know what she likes/dislikes or needs/hates, if we assume she's changed? Just avoid LB's?
My biggest problem with this is she has SIGNIFICANT issues related to $$... my elimination of her debit card, limiting her to checks only is her current biggest issue. So to avoid this as a LB, I have to give her access to all our $$ again?
Hmmm...how can I put this?...what is the best way to make you understand the subtleties?.....
hellOOOOooo!!!!
EARTH TO FL_BLINDSIDED!!!!
Your WW is in an active A. She despises you. Anything you do to interfere with her A will make her hate you that much worse.
THAT IS A GOOD THING!!!!!!!
Bust up the A. Cut her off without a cent. At one point, my WW couldn't even buy our DD's a pack of gum. They used to ask me to give mommy money so she could buy them candy. True story. Lovebuster or affair buster?
cart?... horse?... horse?... cart?
You are missing the big picture dude. You really aren't keeping up on current events.
Found out some interesting things that she could do to me. FL is a bad place for your wife to have an affair - I don't know how it is where you're at, but she's got more rights than I do... and shes out of the house, w/o the kids, etc.
I am maintaining a great plan A, restricting her access to our stuff, telling her all she has to do to come home is give him up (yet again!) and commit to working on our marriage.
She sees the kids every couple of days, and they really don't care to be there w/her, and I KNOW that's hurting her.
She's dropped the apartment push, agreed to stay @ her mom's till she 'figures out what she wants', and will go from there.
FL is a bad place for your wife to have an affair - I don't know how it is where you're at, but she's got more rights than I do...
Where I'm at, the law is slightly more favorable to the BS. I can have my WW stoned to death in the public square. Have you considered relocation? Just an idea.
The situation with your kids is really hard on them. They should get counseling to help. I know how much you want to protect them. Remember that WW is causing this pain. WW has within her power to remove this pain. You are not responsible for this pain. This is a big pin popping the fantasy balloon. I can assure you WW never ever thought about this. They never do. Affairs are all about "me me me".
And remember, no matter how much you want to protect your children, you can't always do it. Children are more afraid about how they are going to be affected by things they can't understand. Work to give them extra reassurance that they are going to be fine. Give them a lot of your time.
doing exactly that... giving kids a LOT of my time. The two younger ones don't know details, and based on what our counselor has told us, we won't be telling them. I'm sure they will find out, and when/if they do, we will explain it to them at that time.
Working half days, when I work at all... that was yet another reason wife left - she couldn't keep up her side of the affair with me underfoot.
ARRGGHHH!!!
I can't get her to come home, and she avoids all conversations about 'us', and won't allow me to even have a conversation about the future.
We have a big beach trip we do every summer that is a family tradition... grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc a huge group of us go to the beach every summer for a week. She told the kids last week that she wasn't going. So I'm gone, kids are gone, mom can play all she wants w/o detection, etc. Mentally - I'm completely bent out of shape over this. the control freak in me is dying here!
I know I have to 'let go' - but its so [email]d@#$[/email] hard! Is the loss/removal of a spouse of 18 years comparable to the withdrawal that one feels when giving up an 'other'?
It gets much easier to let go each day. Your WW is lovebusting you every minute of every day. Eventually you won't care any more. That is why it is important to stop this A now or completely cut her off while you still have feelings left. Time is not on her side but it's not on yours either.
not a problem for her, because our oldest has always had a problem with the truth. I believe its genetic, and she gets it from her WW MOM.
Again, I'm sure it will come out, and my response will be "that's something you need to discuss with your mother" and then verify what she told them was true and accurate. I am going to avoid making it look like I'm attacking or undermining her.
Cut off the funds. She can pay for her own affair. You can't talk about privacy and transparency until she wants to come home. As an adult WS living away from home she does have privacy. Your job is no $$, no LB'ing, working with the kids with honesty. They need to know you love them, you are not going anywhere, and that what mom has decided to do is not acceptable to you and cannot be tolerated. That you still love mom and hope that she will see her way back home sometime, and soon. If and when she decides to come back. Then your rules apply. What will your boundaries be? MC? IC? Full transparency? Etc. These are the rules/boundaries of your new marriage that you need to consider so that you are prepared with what is okay and what isn't .
Folks, I think I'm done here. I appreciate the encouragement, advice and counsel. Unfortunately I do not have the patience or heart left in me to carry on this fight by myself.
I intend to give my wife an ultimatum this evening, and allow her until noon on Sunday to decide whether she wants to be a wife and mother or a single woman. I simply cannot take her lies and deception any longer. I don't know how I could ever trust her, ever again.
Unfortunately, I feel as if she's going to have a hard hard life, and that makes me a little sad. that little bit of sadness is what makes even pause for a second before calling her.
Has anyone else ever gotten to the point where they can no longer continue the one-sided battle? I just don't see any successful way out of this situation. I have lost hope.
And I found out today that the OM isn't 26 almost 27 as she's told everyone - he's 22. This is almost like some sick episode of Nip/Tuck. She's seeing a guy that is barely older than our daughter?!?
found out today that 'the kid' is best friends with and used to date one of my friends' daughters... so... my wife is dating a boy that is in the same circle with my children.
Sorry but I'm not buying the snit fit. I'm not buying it because I've done it - repeatedly - and I know you're lying.
You are saying you're done. But your reason for being done is all about OM, his age, who he dated, etc. I've told you (how many times?) that OM is not now nor never was your problem. Somehow you have been given new info on him and it has sent you into a rage.
Good.
Now get over it.
If you are done, fine. Boot her [censored] out the door. But just do it already and don't whine about it.
If you are just pissed off, go do some more push-ups and then decide what you want to do.
I said earlier that WW is making it easier for you to let go each day - but it doesn't happen overnight. Your abrupt change says you are angry and you want to retaliate against WW.
You said you would never be able to trust her again. No [censored], Sherlock. Why should you? Why would anyone? Blind trust is for the blind. Don't ever FULLY trust another human being again - ever. Nothing wrong with that.
I think you got triggered. I don't know by what or who but I recognize the symptoms. I think you went from calm to blinding rage over something. Well this won't be the last time either.
Can you let this go now and tell yourself that you are satisfied that you did what you could to save the M? Great. Let go.
Now is the time for a serious Plan B. She is at mom's? Cut of all contact except as necessary for the kids. Speak through an intermediary. Don't even exchange emails or SMS with her. Get her as far out of your mind as possible.
Whether the OM is 26, 22 or 12 doesn't make a rat's [censored] worth of difference. Okay maybe 12 is illegal. The point is this A is doomed from the start. Your WW will live in constant fear that this 2Xish OM will always be attracted to younger, prettier wives than yours. She will become psychotically paranoid. Maybe Demi Moore can pull it off but I'm betting your WW cannot.
The worst pain you could inflict on her is to give her to OM. Stop trying to protect her from herself. Start trying to protect your family. WW is not your responsibility.
I'm not an insane spouse.I'm not psycho. All I want is reconciliation. My wife has 'poisoned the well' and I feel like I'm going to pay for it.
My best friend and one of my closest employees came to me tonite to share a story about how his wife's younger brother had a friend that was involved with an 'older woman'... that was my wife. The kid is 22, makes all of $10/hr on a good day and my wife is throwing all that I've accumulated in 18+ yrs away over him. We're talking about close to seven figs here. Not chump change. Not even close. I am done. My delays in responding have to do with 'legal counsel' but I'm in a happy place now.
Any woman that will trade the opportunity to work front desk at your local Marriot for what she had is unstable, and I cannot allow my children to be raised with those values.
I have told her that I will deplete every asset I have to secure custody. When we're done, there will be nothing left for her but dust. And we'll move on, and she can start salting fries at the Arby's down the street, and I will make sure the kids riding lessons are on track.
I would give her the Dobson speech that you love her, but aren't her jailer, that the cage door is open, and she is free to go.
The affair will never last, and she will look back and see how crazy she was. But it sounds like you are starting to lose your love for her. Protect that at all costs.
K - another day, another rollercoaster of emotions. My Dad is here to help w kids and counsel me, and went over and talked to WW and the kids @ her moms house. I think that went well.
Ultimatums won't accomplish what I want. Either of the choices she would make would just be questioned down the road. I know I have to let her go emotionally, physically, everything. If she comes back, well, we'll see where I am when/if that happens. But what I'm doing isn't working/helping.
As much as I hurt over this, I still want her back. I'm not sure if i'm still in love or afraid of being alone. I believe I love her, but its going to take some time to figure that one out. She can be a great person, or my most bitter adversary. This up and down of emotions is wiping me out, and making me question basic stuff, like my love for her. I guess thats what plan b protects, right?
Which B are we talking to today? FLB or JB? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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As much as I hurt over this, I still want her back. I'm not sure if i'm still in love or afraid of being alone.
The most intelligent thing you have said to-date. Good question. Having been in your position, I think you probably still love her but you are also beginning to see things as they really are. IOW your own fog is starting to clear.
Plan B will protect your feelings but will only work if you cut off all contact with WW. Plan B doesn't mean sending her to mom's and then calling every night to see if she remembered to tuck in OM with his teddy bear and gave him his chocolate milk.
Oh and avoid alcohol. It won't accomplish anything. Nothing good that is.
agreed. sometimes one needs to release some steam so that we don't blow up... Alcohol was definitely the wrong choice.
Seems from reading around here that 6 weeks is a little early for plan b, isn't it? If the purpose of the b is twofold... save some threads of emotions for WW, and also to possibly evoke some feelings of missing on her part, its probable too early to expect those feelings in her also.
My dad is here - he's a pretty wise man, and his advice all along has been to 'let go' - very similar to the dobson editorial... his reasoning is to take me off the emotional roller coaster, as every interaction we have seems to change my direction, what i want to accomplish, emotional level, etc.
Six weeks? You can hold your breath for six weeks.
Alcohols is not only the wrong choice but it is also a depressant. Please give yoursefl 24 hours to get it out of your system before making any serious decisions. JB is not a very pleasant guy to talk to. Take away his password.
Your Dad may be wise but he also has a vested interest - YOU. I recommend that you tell him to support you the best he can but to not advise you on whether to remain married or not. Parents are often well meaning but misguided.
Let the decision to stay or go be yours. Your dad only wants what's best for you. He is not thinking about your family. I can't fault him for that. if I were your father, I'm sure I would say the same thing.
When I was at six weeks, my mother and sisters told me to get divorced. I told them (lovingly) to shut up. They did. They still supported me and do to this day. Their opinion changed with time. I preferred to listen to MelodyLane. It was a much better choice - at least in terms of saving the marriage.
If I could turn back the clock, would I do things differently? Maybe. But I have two extremely happy little girls right now. Tough to give that up.
edited to add.... Think of it like you are Rocky Balboa in round 16. You are cut, bloody, beat to a pulp. You can barely stand up. Your father is your trainer. He sees how badly hurt you are. He demands to throw in the towel. He wants to end the fight. But he doesn't know your heart. He can't see how much fight you have left in your spirit. Only you can decide that.
I know that ultimatums won't get me to the right place, and I know that its killing me to be around her, and I know that its killing me to see her checking her cellphone every 30 seconds when she's around, and I know that she's still communicating with him.
I know that it will probably get worse before it gets better, and that the emotional ride I'm on won't slow down any time soon.
I am feeling more and more hollow and empty inside, every time she hugs me or says "I'll call you later" it hurts more when she doesn't.
You said I could hold my breath for 6 weeks and get through that... but what about the next 6 or 12 or however long this takes? How do you get thru the days and weekends and evenings sitting at home in an empty house? At what point do you decide to throw in the towel (sticking to the boxing analogy)?
I don't mean to throw my own pity party, but this is so depressing. It hurts to sit here and know that my wife isn't here, and doesn't want to be here.
Piojitos - you went thru this for over a year? How? How did you get thru it? How did you do it and not completely lose either hope for your future or love for your wife?
Have you done your MB reading yet? The pity party you mentioned is par for the course.
Think about what you had and where you want to be. Then see where you value your M. Don't depend on the opinion of the Ws. All WS' hate loyalty and commitment to the M. Know this and as long as she is a WS, she is the #1 enemy of your M. This also means your best support (your W) is not available to help you fight his #1 enemy. So you have t/b resourceful. MB c/b one of your resources. Another is your personal support group and there are more tools available to help you. Got a good MC familiar with MB concepts? Give Jennifer C. @ MB a call for a plan.
You've got lots to keep you busy so it will give you less time to have a pity party. Posting here is therapeutic also. You can get help and give help. Both can have a positive effect on your personal recovery plan.
As long as my WW was continuing the A, I found that MC was not useful and the MC came to that conclusion as well. If you can get IC, I would. I didn't have that option available to me because of where I live. When we went to MC, WW lied to the MC equally as well as she lied to me. The MC believed her lies and this caused me great frustration. So much so that it eventually gave me great pleasure once the evidence was in to tell the MC what a complete [censored] she was.
Someone once told me you can stand on your head for six months as long as you know when it is going to end. I posted my running analogy here a long time ago and I think it is pretty much true. The biggest problem with being a BS in your position is that you have no clue when it is going to be over. So you are running on fumes and have no clue how far the next gas station is.
I think I posted this too a long time ago but here goes yet another analogy. Once on a long motorcycle trip down Mexico, I was faced with the fork in the road literally. I had the choice of going to Veracruz and down the coast or taking a road that was a dashed line on my map. I was running very low on cash because I hadn't realized before going into Mexico that almost every highway is a toll road. So I took the dashed line road believing it wouldn't cost that much. Unfortunately I had an old map. What I got myself into was a brand new highway just completed and the second most expensive toll road in Mexico after the DF - Acapulco road. More importantly, this road was about 260 miles long and had only one gas station exactly at the midpoint of the road. That first bit of information I was aware of. The second had escaped me until it was too late. My motorcycle had about a 140 mile range when traveling 60 mph. I was doing 90 on average. So I had a lot of things going against me.
So here I am not knowing if I am going to make it. Worrying about what I will do if I run out of gas. I am constantly checking the fuel gauge. I bleed down the reserve. I am really stressed. Eventually I got to the gas station without any problem.
The deal is that once I started down that route, I got to the point of no return. Once I reached that point, no matter how much worrying or stressing I did would never have any effect on the outcome. The outcome was a matter of chemistry and physics and my worrying could never have changed it.
So what I recommend you do is set a target. Pick a date on the calendar. Maybe that date will revolve around some significant event or maybe it is just a date. Mark the date. Then decide you are going to stand on your head until that date and then go to Plan B. Maybe that date is a few short weeks away or maybe three months. Then focus on the tasks at hand.
I went way too long. I went too long because it cost me my love for my WW. It wasn't easy. I had to set new targets for myself along the way. I had to change my focal point a couple of times. But knowing that there will be a definite end to your suffering one way or the other will help you survive it.
I have never been tortured. But I imagine that the worst part of torture is not the pain itself but the not knowing when it will ever stop. That not knowing, I think, is what breaks you down.
K - I completely understand the date thing. Your mental line in the sand. You've defined a finite edge for your own personal plane of he||. How many dates did u blow through before you set one for real, and stuck to it?
My wife will do what she pleases, when she pleases... my fear is that I have ZERO positive influence and a potential for 100% negative influence on the deal. If so, any contact is either neutral or negative... therefore, I should define the rules to make it plan B now...
Does the carrot of plan a really work? Do they really notice you being different when their boy toys are on the front of their brains?? Is the potential positive worth the risk of the negative?
Whichever way you decide to go, your absolute best Plan A right now is essential.
I went through probably three dates. I went through them because my WW made three major step changes which gave me renewed hope. In hindsight, that was probably ill-considered but I just could not make myself allow those children to be hurt. So I suffered instead. And suffer I did. No doubt. I think I'm paying the price even now when it looks like we may actually be beginning the recovery process.
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My wife will do what she pleases, when she pleases...
That will never change. It's what she does that can be the problem. That can change. For example, my WW used to go to the pool every day and let pool boy help her with her breast stroke. Now she goes and plays golf every day with a women's group. She is still doing what she wants to do, she has just now chosen a healthier activity.
My belief is that the carrot does work but you need the stick too. Yes I believe that WW's do, in fact, notice the positive changes in you. I believe they notice it because it pisses them off. It pisses them off because you are refusing to reinforce their sense of entitlement to the A. What they want to say is they had every right to the A because you are such a jerk. And you are not cooperating. They don't like that. They say your changes are not permanent and that you will soon go back to your old self. That would reinforce their justification for the A so they cling to it.
If you are losing your positive feelings for WW, go to Plan B but continue your Plan A up to the point that you shut off all contact with her. Don't get angry and say you did your best but it obviously isn't working. That will serve nothing. I know this is all frustrating. I may have mentioned it. Plan A sucks. But it is the best way to try to recover your M which has been your goal. If you believe the statistics, Plan A only works 15% of the time. Plan B is far more powerful a tool and much more likely to save the M. But you need a good Plan A before you go to B. Six weeks is not very long. Personally I would have tried for at least 3 months. I have heard six months is the max limit for many people.
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my fear is that I have ZERO positive influence and a potential for 100% negative influence on the deal.
I don't understand this statement at all. Apparently you have not read anything on this site or in Dr. Harley's books.
My belief is that you cannot have any negative influence. I mean, according to your WW, the M is already over. How much worse can it really get? The only direction you can go is up. So you will either have no influence or a positive influence. There is no real downside.
I got angry a few times in Plan A. I had what I called my "crazy Ivans". A crazy Ivan lasts exactly 72 hours. Less than that and they think you are a vacilating wimp. More than that and they might decide there is no hope.
On fact you are overlooking. Your WW is still under your roof. There must be a reason for that.
nope - she's out at mom's - again. Been there since 5/25... over a week. (10 nights to be exact)
She doesn't respond to my plan A. She only responds more negatively when I lose my cool, or force a decision from her. That's what I mean by 0% positive, and potential for 100% negative. She doesn't seem to notice any of my plan A actions...
She only responds more negatively when I lose my cool, or force a decision from her.
That's because that isn't plan A. So if you kick a dog and every time you kick it, it bites you, what lessons can you take away from that? Get a cat? Oh...wait!...I know!...STOP KICKING THE DOG!
It is hard to plan A with her out. So write up a really good Plan B letter. Post it here so ML and believer can fix your mistakes and then go to Plan B. I can't help with Plan B letters. History has shown that I'm lousy at them. I pretty much always neded up with your JB letter. Not pretty.
I was looking at my original thread yesterday. The very first person ever to post to me on MB told me I was wasting my time trying to save my M. I had to laugh.
Here was my plan B letter I gave her the day before Mothers day... only to find out subsequently that she continued talking with him actively (she called him Mothers day Morning while I was in the shower...) So this didn't work so well before.
This got me squat before... only delayed and covered her affair a little longer.
Looking for any/all feedback for Plan B, round 2...
***********************************************
To R***, my Wife of over eighteen years, and partner in life for over twenty:
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with M*** possible. I foolishly went after my career with all my attention, without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there when you needed me the most, and now we (along with our entire family, as well as friends) are suffering for this mistake.
I am willing to avoid these mistakes I’ve made in the past and create a new and better life for both of us that will meet your needs. I know you feel as if this desire to leave our marriage and pursue Matt is something inside of ‘you’ and you alone, that it’s something that only ‘you’ can figure out, but I know I share in the blame for this situation. Please allow me to accept part of that burden. But I cannot begin to work on us until you completely end your relationship with M***, once and for all. Emails, texts, phone calls, secret meetings, everything.
What you did last night absolutely floored me. Not only did you have the nerve to bring your boyfriend to your mom’s house, you lied to me throughout the day and evening to cover it up. I have been praying for a sign from God that would indicate your heart’s intent with our relationship, and I feel as if this event was it. And to further add injury, you went so far as to blame me for it – as if I am the one in the wrong here. You actually called me a liar for saying I was at home when I was watching your mom’s house. I told you before – I am dedicated to saving this marriage, and checking up on you is a necessary part of that. Unfortunately, I cannot continue as we have been for the past weeks.
Until you terminate all contact with M***, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Please do not call me. If you need to communicate something to me, please do it through email. If it’s an emergency or something that needs immediate attention, please have someone else call. I will not answer calls from you or your mom’s house any more.
I will also not be able to help you financially. I have opened separate checking and savings accounts in my name only. I will share access to those funds with you when you recommit to our marriage. Be assured that I am being wise with this money, and not wasting it in any way. My purpose is not to punish you, but not to fund your selfish misadventure. I am also responsible for all of our expenses in maintaining this household. Please be careful with the remaining money in this account – that is all I’m leaving you. After the mortgage payment, utilities and college tuition post, there will be approximately $600 remaining in our joint checking account.
I am also terminating your cellphone this afternoon. If you wish, go open another in your name and on your credit only. I cannot stand the thought of you using OUR money to continue this adultery and pursue an affair with M***.
I will work with you to ensure that you can visit the children whenever you like, but I will not be here when you visit. If you would like to communicate about the children, please do it via email, not telephone, cellphone or texting. Please let me know your schedules, and I will share mine such that we can avoid all contact and make sure to avoid any conflicts. The children have been traumatized enough by your bad decisions, and don’t need any more grief now.
I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I’ve endured as a result of your relationship with M***, and I cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you are with him. I love you with all my heart, but I can’t see you under these conditions.
As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from M*** and are willing to work together with me to establish some ‘ground rules’ to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.
I want to be able to rebuild and restore our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other’s most important needs so that neither of us will ever have to turn to someone outside of our marriage for support, and purposefully hurt each other as we are now. We need to work to create a lifestyle that works to maintain our happiness, not only with ourselves but with each other. Then there will never be a reason for us to separate or hurt one another as we have hurt each other recently. I want to be your best friend again – someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be that person in my life as well.
I loved you with all my heart when we were married, and I don’t know how, but I continue to love you up through today, even with these recent events. I finished your Mother’s Day present last night after I got home – despite how much I was hurt by your deception and words. I’ve decided to drop it by your mom’s house along with this letter, rather than just email it. I hope someday you can appreciate the care, love and time this took to put together, and how incredibly difficult it was to finish last night following your continued betrayal. You’ve told me repeatedly how unhappy you’ve been for years, but I cannot see it – and neither can any of your friends. Look through these pictures with an open heart and I’m sure you can see the love that we have had.
I don’t understand it, but I love you more now than ever – and I want for us to be together again as husband and wife. I just can’t do it while you’re continuing to pursue a relationship with M***.
You have repeatedly stated this isn’t about M***, but yet you’ve decided against the judgement and advice of your counselor and your own heart to continue it. You know that what you are doing is wrong, not only morally but emotionally as well to all involved. While you are pursuing a relationship with M***, your focus cannot be on ours.
I love you, but fear that continuing on in this current manner will cause me to not love you any more. You have to understand how much you mean to me, the kids, and all of our family and friends. We don't want to lose you.
When you are ready to commit to our marriage, please come home. Until then, do not contact me unless it involves the kids. You can leave me voice mails or emails to arrange for the kids' schedules, but please do not contact me for any other reason, until you are ready to commit to us.
Let's give this a month, and plan on getting together on July 1 to see where we stand and discuss what we want to do. I sincerely hope you decide in that time to come home and commit to 'us'. We all love you, miss you and want you back.
Until July 1, Your faithful devoted husband, R*****
I don't like the one month deadline. That has to go. What you should do is identify what boundary conditions you want met in order for her to be accepted back. Don't go overboard on the boundaries but definitely identify at least the bare minimum.
Byt telling her you are going to try this for a month places no decision on her whatsoever.
Your Plan B should be indefinite until she is ready to meet those conditions.
That's correct. Don't ever show your hole card. You have to have some timeline in mind to preserve your sanity. But you Plan B the WW forever. Now if the WW can decide to try to leave one of those W's behind and return to the M, you will take W back. Don't tell her you love her and will do anything to recover the marriage until 12:01 AM July 17th after which time your offer will be null and void.
When WW says goodbye to OM, he always says he will be there for her until eternity. They all do. It's a lie but sounds great on paper. So you are saying "goodbye" to WW but you will be there for her if she decides to return to the M.
Look at all the Plan B threads here. Most all start with the idea that they want to save the M. But after time, their interest dwindles. Eventually they decide that regardless of what WS does, D is the only answer. That's okay. It's natural. But if you no longer have any love left for your WS prior to getting into Plan B, it is a fruitless exercise.
Plan A. Show WW what a great guy you are. Plan B. Save your love for her and still be that great guy.
Have had a couple of good days. No LB's, no late night Beam-inspred hate text messages, no name calling.
She is definitely in withdrawal now. Had a long (2+ hr) conversation in the truck last nite, sitting in her mom's driveway. Says she hasn't seen/talked/texted/emailed him or received anything coming back from him in over a week. She may be lying, I have to assume based on experience with this that she is.
She admitted last nite that she never stopped contact each of the previous times she tried to stop... said it was just too hard to stop. It wasn't until after I followed him home and called his mommy that he stopped reciprocating/chasing her. His reason was that it wasn't important enough to get his family involved... (what about my family??) She (as expected) was very bitter for me taking this 'out of her hands' - says that she never had closure. And that she doesn't know if she'll ever be able to find it because of my actions... (I know, fog talk, lets justify another excuse to allow her to see him...)
We talked for a long time -about us, where we are today, where we're headed... I went through the two scenarios as I see them... 1. She completely commits heart and soul to working on our marriage, whatever it takes, modifies actions, choices, values, even friends if necessary to work on it.
2. we start down the path towards divorce and end up hating each other, poor because we gave it all to our attorneys to decide who gets custody, and with resentful children.
Not really a middle ground where we stay where we are today (kinda in limbo) forever... and she realizes that.
So.... I am attempting to work my very best plan A now. Critical here, esp w/her saying that she's out of contact with OM. (Oh, and today's his birthday. Did I mention that he's 23 now?)
Or is now the time to go to a plan B, and leave her feeling all alone?
found a note today indicating that she's been giving OM 'space' as she didn't want to 'freak him out' or scare him off... evidently he had told her to stop calling until after she had her stuff figured out...
note was her discussing it with a friend, how she needed 'closure' with him - had to see him again to get that, etc...
I can't divulge that I know she's contemplating breaking NC, so HELP!!! How can I work this to not backfire?? Work a great plan A?? An even better one?
Went to her mom's Fri morning to help her mom clean up a downed tree (pretty bad T-storms came thru here last week) and spent the morning sweating my a$$ off chopping up a tree into manageable pieces...
WW had come out several time to check on me, to see if she could help, etc. When I finished up, she asked if I could come insode and help her with some stuff. Once in, I notice that all her stuff is piled by the door and she asks if she can come home...
We sat down and had a pretty serious discussion re: her mind frame, what I needed as assurances from her re: current situation, and we established some immediate boundaries and conditions, with the understanding that they could change as we moved forward. Long and short, Plan A succeeded, OM started treating her poorly when she didn't immediately run to him 2 weeks prior when she left, and their relationship had run aground. She called him and left him a voicemail stating that they were forever over, that she was back home with me, and she never wanted to see or hear from him again. That she was sorry for getting him into something that was so unstable, but regardless she had made her mind up and come home.
We've had a couple of discussions about the NC letter, but she says she doesn't want any more contact.
She's reset all of her passwords and given them to me (as I have her) for cellphone, email, etc.
Initial conditions are : 1. complete and total honesty. 2. no questionable situations - call immed if anything happens. 3. No contact whatsoever with OM or his group of friends. 4. No secret email accounts - absolutely no secrets whatsoever.
I'm sure more will come as we implement MB priciples in their entirety, but thats where we are for now.
So it's been 3 days here, she's still smiling and is much more willing to discuss our marriage and where we're heading (all good so far). Lots of intimacy (holding hands, kisses, hugs) but no SF. She said she needs some time for that... She still asserts that they never went beyond kissing but we've agreed to have some STD testing done this week (both of us). How long does it usually (if there is anything like usual in these situations) take to restore that level of intimacy after an EA? (poss PA, but will prob never know.)
LOL - YES - I used a chainsaw. Tree had bigger diam than my wimpy suburban 18" Husquvarna... And man were those logs heavy...
K - I'll check w our phys. in the morning. She's also asked if I'm going off of AD's now that she's home... also is asking if my old position is still available and what I need to do to get it back... dunno if she's still a WW trying to play like she's in deep deep undercover, or if she's truly concerned for me and my wellbeing, both mentally and financially.
Still a little disconcerting that she's bringing up that stuff now, seemingly so soon after returning home. My response was "let's see how these next couple of weeks go" before making any rash changes...
Don't go off the AD's too quickly. Talk to your doctor about a strategy for getting off them.
Your WW may not be totally into the MB plan hook, line and sinker but you do need to learn and practice the four rules. This will help any M - even a recovering one.
Well. Okay. Why didn't you accept her help? Were you just wanting to impress her with your macho-ness? Or do you generally (pre-A) just like to be left alone to do the "man stuff"?
By asking for water, towels, etc. in my opinion is a common mistake us stupid men make. First, you have clearly put her in her place. She is not capable of doing anything more. At least that is what you are tacitly telling her.
I cut down a lot of tree limbs all year long. I use a Milwaukee chainsaw made in Amurca by Amurcans! I don't dwindle away the American economy like you do! I love my country! I don't turn a blind eye to the devastating effects of globalisation on my friends and neighbors. I'm not willing to throw my country under a bus!
Okay. Deep breath.
Sorry. Got a little sidetracked. Where was I?
Oh, for example, couldn't you have cut some limbs a little smaller and had WW help you haul those away? It would have been a great way to be closer, maybe even have a chance to small talk. But no you Mr. He-man with his badass chainsaw had to have the little missus sit off to the side and admire your manliness all the while demonstrating to her that she is clearly not your equal.
IMVHO this is a silent DJ. Okay not mission critical here but what I am saying is that I think you need to re-examine your interactions with WW and how you will go forward. This is just part of the process. It just got my attention that WW kept asking you if she could help and you dismissed her each time almost like you would a child.
OTOH, I wasn't there. I'm only reading what you wrote. Just replay that day in your mind and ask yourself what you could have done better.
ah... I see what you were getting at. Me not so stoopid after all... (lol)
Her mom had done all the easy stuff earlier in the week, actually WW helped her but complained to me for about 15 mins about how many scratches she got, and how bad they could scar, etc etc. (She's not really the 'outdoorsy' type...) All I had left was about an 8' section of trunk. Not a lot for anyone else to do, other than stand there and watch me sweat (which she did, I was happy to see!)
BTW - whats a DJ?
I'll consider our interactions moving forward, and make sure not to DJ (silent or loudly...) once I figure out what the heck it is!
WW helped her but complained to me for about 15 mins about how many scratches she got, and how bad they could scar, etc etc. (She's not really the 'outdoorsy' type...)
Okay you just put WW squarely in her place. You have already decided what she can and can't do. Why not let her make the decision? If it is bothering her, she is a big girl. She knows when she needs to quit something.
I'm just giving you something to think about. How can you involve WW more in what you do? That's all.
We've probably talked more in the last week (several days leading up to Coming Home Day and thru this weekend) than we had in the past 6 mos. That's pretty pathetic.
I recognize now that I had shut her out of my life almost entirely... I wouldn't take her calls @ work, or when I did I would be a jerk. I wouldn't talk to her about work because I didn't value her opinions. I wouldn't communicate with her unless it was to complain about how much she $$ was spending, or arguments over kids...
Communication is a big one for her, and I shut her down. I took some notes from OM's playbook and started communcating with her... texts, short sweet emails, calls for no reason - 'just to say hey', etc. So when she went NC back on 5/25, and I started my best Plan A, the balance shifted this way.
That (communication) is how I am becoming more connected with WW, and hope to make her a FWW soon...
back to an earlier question - is there a typical time before restoring SF to the relationship? I've told her I'm not pressing the issue, for her to let me know when felt ready, and doing my best continued plan a to fill up that love bank... but how long should I prepare myself to wait?
SF in my case was also not simple. It is not a switch you turn on and off. There is a lot of emotion to deal with on both sides. I remember going through the love phase, anger phase, resentment phase, the "oh well nothing on TV" phase, anger phase (I guess I liked that one), the abstinence phase and now possibly into the intimacy phase.
There is something about being in the middle of SF which so easily hauls up those mental images of WW and OM.
For WW's part, I'm sure she has phases too although my guess is that she probably substitutes the anger phase for something like a shame phase. I bet we pretty much had the other phases in common though.
Another problem is that our phases were out-of-phase. For example, she might be in an intimacy phase while I was in an anger phase. It is really complicated.
I don't view SF as the beginning of the road to recovery. I view it as possibly even an obstacle to recovery in the early stages. But not having SF does NOT mean that you aren't recovering your marriage. One has nothing to do with the other IMO. Certainly a recovered M would include copious amounts of SF. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
I wouldn't take her calls @ work, or when I did I would be a jerk.
If I see my house phone or WW's GSM humber come up on the ID, I don't care what I am doing or who I am talking to. I may ask people to leave my office or simply wait if I don't think the call will be too long.
The thing is by changing your behavior toward your WW depending on the situation (i.e. at home, work or the mall, etc.) you are compartmentalizing your life. Is your wife any more or less important to you when you are at work as opposed to being some place else? If not, why treat her differently? She is the same person.
Lee Iacocca was a pretty important guy in his company. He had a special phone installed in his office just for his family to call. No matter what he was doing, if that phone rang, he stopped whatever it was and took the call. I'm betting he interrupted some pretty important meetings at times.
It's funny all the things you say you did. Basically you are guilty of being any average guy. I bet there are millions of average guys out there who treat their wives exactly the same way and their wives don't cheat.
Try and take away something positive from this. Make your new marriage better than all those millions out there who will never know what they are missing.
Wife told me last night that she had texted OM to tell him that she had gone home... When she left a message for him last week, she didn't say that she was coming home, just that she was working on our relationship and for him not to call her anymore. She had gone through her emails, and had sent notes to several of her girlfriends telling them that she had ended it w OM, and was home working on 'us'. She said when she did that, she realized that she didn't tell OM that. (more on emails in a second)
I didn't flip or blow up or anything, but I did get kind of abrupt when we were talking about it. My point was that it shouldn't matter to OM (or to her!) where she was... if she told him not to contact her any more, that she was working on our relationship, that he didn't need to know where she was living - that it was irrelevent information. I also told her that I took her texting him very seriously, and that since we had not really rebuilt any level of trust that I could only assume that what she sent him was inappropriate, and that it meant to me that she was still in contact with him. I then went on to say that she knows my boundaries, and that in the future any contact (voicemail, text, emails) needed to be done ONLY AFTER TALKING TO ME, and ONLY WITH OUR JOINT APPROVAL, and ONLY WHEN I WAS RIGHT THERE WITH HER. That those conditions were the only way I would feel 'ok' about her having any contact with him.
Emails : there are 3 emails in one of her mail folders that she has saved from early May from OM. She periodically opens and reads them. She knows I know she has them, and she knows I know that she still looks at them. When I asked her why she had not deleted them, her answer was that she wasn't ready to. She went through the computer and deleted other things (a document she had sent to him, other emails, etc.) but she hasn't deleted these. When we talked about it last night, she just said that she 'wasn't there yet', but would be soon. Should I push it, or be patient and stick with Plan A?
Finally, she told me last night that she thought she would be ready for SF soon... that she was feeling more comfortable being around me and with me every day. I take this as her getting through withdrawal from OM, and coming around the corner? We kiss, hug, talk more now than we have in a long time (maybe a year?) and she has noticed the change in our relationship and said she was still adjusting to it. (she meant in a good way) This is positive, right?
She's still maintaining that there's been NC, and is going despite the huge potential for lots of ugliness withmy family. I am planning on giving them all 'the talk' about how if I am accepting her back, they need to honor my decision and not gang up or try and punish her in any way... We've both made mistakes and she feels like everyone is focusing on her alone...
She looked at the remaining 3 emails twice yesterday, and only once tonight. Hopefully it will be none tomorrow and on into next week.
I guess I have to accept issues like this as we move forward, and just be patient?
No, this is the time where your supporters need to show their support of you and show they respect your decision. As for the Xws needing space make sure that's for real and NOT an excuse.
At this time, it is ok for the BS t/b needy. If the Xws can't keep up, it is their but on the line.
After all, the WS have taught the BS and family that we can live without them, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Hm.... right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Do you know what is written in the emails? To me, her reading them is a type of "contact." Through them, OM is still filling EN's for her (even if they are old emails and she and he are no longer in current contact).
I'm guessing you don't want to fight with her about them, but her keeping them worries me. Cold turkey is really the best way to go when in withdrawal. The longer she holds on to any reminders or mementos, the harder she is making it on herself (and you!) in the long run.
If you agree with me, would you feel comfortable telling her that you believe the emails are filling needs of hers that you want to be filling?
They weren't long or involved, but they did show the emotional bond...
"I'm headed to work, call me later baby" and
"I can't wait to see you and hold you and kiss you"...
basically one or two sentence notes, but I'm sure they are filling some need of hers. She says she's not ready to get rid of them, but admits to looking at them less now than last week, and says she's going to get rid of them soon. I have verified thru the monitoring software that she is looking at them less over time.
With us headed out next week, she will be completely cut off from email and her ability to read them. She also isn't taking her cell on our trip.
I'm anticipating it being kinda rough as it will be cold turkey at that point... But I'm doing my best plan A to avoid exacerbating the situation...
"I'm anticipating it being kinda rough as it will be cold turkey at that point"
"Rough" might be an understatement - I hope not, though, for your sake. Hopefully the vacation atmosphere and being with family will be a good distraction. It shows in your posts that you love her. Hang in there!
You won't get any SF as long as these email are around. DELETE THEM and don't ask permission, JUST DO IT. It's like a recovering alcoholic taking a couple swills of liquor every now and then to help her slowly quit. Dump out all the booze. Sure, she'll be pissed off at you for ONE DAY when she finds out. Otherwise she can still pine over OM for SEVERAL WEEKS. Which would you rather choose?
I know about the emails. She knows I know about them. I know that she's looking at them. She knows I know that she's looking at them. We've discussed how they are reminders of OM, and that her hanging on to them is the same as talking to him. She's getting better. She's viewing less. We have a week completely out of touch with this world, where viewing those emails will not be possible. One of my biggest fears pre-WW return on 6/8 was that she did not intend on going on this vacation with us. She has stated in emails to girlfriends that she is looking forward to this trip as a 'break' from here and all reminders.
My plan is to allow them to remain through the end of this week, but to have them disappear the week we're gone. If she's not done pining over them after a week home and a week at the beach, I will be forced to take action.
I do not want anything to happen pre-trip that could jeopardize her not going... If me and rest of family are out of town and she remains behind, all of the reminders of what she has at stake here will be gone... (me, kids, our family being together) and I fear that she would lose her ability to maintain NC.
Yes - I love her. Very much. So much that every time I see she's looking at them it makes me hurt even deeper. But I am able to accept a little pain today for a better relationship down the road.
She got some encouraging words of support from a friend from church - someone she looks to frequently for guidance. She had not discussed her 'situation' with this friend previously, because of (I believe) shame of her actions. Her friend confessed to her that she had been in a very similar situation several years prior... and how much closer the challenges of her A had brought her to both her H and God. My wife literally started crying on the phone when she heard about it... They are planning on getting together for a 'girls lunch' to discuss all of the ways her friend was able to get thru the withdrawal, reminders, memories, etc and rebuild her trust and marriage with her H. WW told me about the call, and about how encouraging it was to have someone else to talk to that had been thru what she is in, and had successfully 'made it thru' it all.
Just a word of caution…remember that an addict can find a way to get a hit. When you're away, watch out for things like prepaid phone cards and pay phones.
I'm very glad to hear about her friend at church. God works in mysterious ways. The very sad part is that A's are rampant, even in church environments. A pastor friend of ours recently told my H that he's "up to his ears in crocodiles" with A's and D's in his congregation. Hopefully those of us who have learned terribly hard lessons can at least help each other.
I found a stash of cards and photos from OM quite by accident. In fact, it was WW's direct actions that made me find them. I posted that incident but it involved an intense wrestling match where I had to threaten to break WW's fingers to protect certain personal assets and she ended up eating on of the cards to destroy the evidence. Wasn't pretty.
WW's should never keep souvenirs of their affairs. That is disrespectful to the M. It is also a form of contact. She needs to forget OM - not keep momentos.
she's now starting almost an anxiety attack about going on this trip...
says she's afraid of what will get said either by her or my family, and we won't ever be able to recover from it... All kinds of 'end of the line' talk...
I'm telling her it's ok, stay calm, if its uncomfortable we'll find another place, etc... but she's backpedaling HARD to get out of going!
Promise her that anybody who wants to attack her has to go through you. You are the one who believes in this M and they can either respect you and your decision or they can swallow it. Be tough. Show her you are going to stand up for her.
And don't let her down for a second.
My WW had a lot of anxiety when she saw my family for the first time. Now she is glad to see them.
Personally I think this is a smoke screen. She now realizes she will be out of contact with OM. That's what has her stressed.
I called my mom and dad, and my brother last night. I gave them the "We have both made mistakes and hurt each other and a lot of other people, but we're trying to rebuild and restore our marriage. This is not the time or the place for any comments, discussion, ANYTHING related to me or my wife, our relationship, our past choices. Anything said that is upsetting or in anyway is an attack on WW, and we're out."
Dude - glad to have you back. Missed you. This has been one of the toughest weeks to get through, with her being home, and her still in withdrawal. She might not even be there now because of the emails. I know they have to go, but I'm not giving her ANY EXCUSE to blow up and not go.
I'm planning on PLAN A-ing my a$$ off this week. If she comes back and goes to them, they will be gone.
I know you would love nothing more than have your family knock some sense into WW. You CANNOT let that happen. If you do, you will have betrayed her. I think I told you before that you may not trust WW but she doesn't trust you either. Must be tough to be a wayward - never knowing who your friends really are. I feel so sorry for them - no - wait - scratch that.
Absolutely will defend my wife to the grave... (or until D)
I've made that point clear to my family, as well as her. She should have nothing to fear but, well, you know the rest.
I have given up sleep, food, sex, appx 25% of my income, sold my ownership in my business, two titles and a whole lot of face to get to this point. I'm not letting my mommy or daddy tell me whats best for me. I've made that very clear.
If only I could get wife's attention for a little bit - to see what we have/had/can have again...
If only I could get wife's attention for a little bit - to see what we have/had/can have again...
Who said you weren't. There are a million things left unsaid during all this. I'm sure you have gotten her attention. She is just chemically dependent at the moment. She'll get over it with time and NC.
U R letting the WS in her dictate how u and your family s/b. U want them to have to walk on eggshells because the WS is babbling?
Get a grip. Go back and setup a good plan. One that YOUR supporters will feel valued for.
STOP letting the WS dictate to you.
Ex:
WS: I am scared your family will hate me and they will nevre like me again.
BS: U s/b scared but u also s/b glad that they are forgiving if U R no longer a WS. I have spoken to them and they will respect MY decision if you accompany me as my W.
This means if you allow the WS side of you to show, there is no telling how any of us will react. So it is up to you, r u gonna be a WS or my W?
WS: Oh.... well what if I can't be your W?
BS: Then you'd better be prepared to live with those choices. Stop babbling to me. Do you WANT t/b known as a WS? Is that how you WANT t/b remembered?
WS: No.
BS: Ok then. (then walk away - you've got to allow time to sink in).
Then go to your family and reset the expectations. Let them know you value their support and while you are more than willing to hear their POVs, ask they respect your decisions since they don't have all the info but need to trust that you are doing this with a clear mind and calm heart. That you love your family and want what is best for all. Then ask for their help where they can but if they can't you'll understand. This may mean you may have to changed some vacation plans or whatever.
There is no way I would do what Orchid suggests. If my family were trained professionals - yes. But my family is a bunch of loose cannons. There is no way of knowing what they would say or do. They are biased. She hurt you so they are automatically against her. What Orchid is suggesting is that you hold WW up while they pummel the crap out of her. No way I would take my WW on that trip - ever.
There is no way I would do what Orchid suggests. If my family were trained professionals - yes. But my family is a bunch of loose cannons. There is no way of knowing what they would say or do. They are biased. She hurt you so they are automatically against her. What Orchid is suggesting is that you hold WW up while they pummel the crap out of her. No way I would take my WW on that trip - ever.
No, what I am suggesting is that you set the rules that will NOT allow a WS to rule your world and that of your supports. I am suggesting you let the WS know you want your W back NOT the WS.
Read my post again. It says for the supporters to respect the decision of the BS.
What good does it to have supporters and then put the WS in control? How long would you support someone who is that fickle?
K - really doesn't matter what my family says right now...
Pio - your family is a bunch of loose cannons - you should have been there last night...
We drive 8 hrs, get in to beach place around 7pm last night. By 9pm, my wife is in our room about to explode, I've already asked my mom respectfully to stop making the snide remarks at my wifes expense...
A couple more rounds of this (my mom making DJ's in front of other family, incl my kids, my wife getting up and excusing herself from the room) and i invite my mom and dad out for a leisurely stroll to discuss how they are doing EXACTLY what I told them not to do... and that I would not have been there had I known what we were walking into...
my father (who's 63) and I almost come to blows, I excuse myself, go get family and we pack up and leave. So my summer vacation / father's day getaway / opportunity to Plan A my wife w/o local pressures/triggers/reminders lasts all of 3 1/2 hours. We eventually find a hotel about an hour away, and end up spending Father's day with just my family. (Better anyway...)
I don't know if its the stress of my family event last night, or the 16 hours we've spent in a car together with 2 kids, or the time that she hasn't been able to get on her email and read OM's old emails, but she's gone from being "we're going to make it work" to "I don' really know if I can do this" and "I think I moved back too soon" and "You are going to have to be the one to move out this time"...
I'm considering driving back up on Wed, leaving wife/kids here in FL. Main reason is to see my bro and his family - they've been in China for ~4 yrs and we rarely get together. Any mended fences w/family would be a bonus. My wife suggested that I stay and she go last night, but no way would I have let her potentially see me as 'siding' with my family over her.
I'm going back to a good plan A here this week and see how it goes. Maybe I'll drive back up, maybe not.
On another note, we have our first couples counseling session coming up next week (we're trying to get it resched for this week as we're now home and available...) Will be very interesting to see how this one goes... The last time we went to counseling as a couple, she basically went 'cold' to me and shut down completely... but a lot has changed in the past 7 weeks. Man, has it ever...
WW told me tonight that one of the biggest obstacles she sees to recovery with me is that 'everyone knows'. She claims that she can't handle that baggage and all the weight of their judgement will prevent us from reconnecting... (actually just her connecting with me, I guess)
Other counselors (other than the Harleys) recommend against informing any other parties (family, friends, children) as this can a significant issue to address in reconciliation. With my WW's need for approval from others, she sees this as a significant issue, so much so she's saying that now she can't be around my family, she's uncomfortable with me around hers, as well as all my work functions, community functions, church functions, etc etc etc.
Any suggestions? Just tell her to get over it? Tell her I gave her the opportunity to do this on her own but she did not? Apologize to those people for involving them / sharing info with them?
As this is one of the primary tactics at waking up / disrupting the A, I'd like to know how others fared with this challenge...
My WW told me we had to move. My WW told me she could never face either of our families ever again. Water under the bridge. They are all fast friends again.
Any time WW tells you she thinks there are too many obstacles, don't discuss it. Stay silent. Let her finish her thoughts. Then, after a pause, just tell her that you love her an believe you can overcome anything. Keep it simple. It isn't a debate. She isn't wanting a discussion. She is simply expressing her feelings. Better to simply be quiet and let her talk.
You are like me. You want to counter every argument. Try just shutting up and see what happens. You might be surprised.
Nope - you're wrong, I NEVER argue! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Gotcha. I Understand. But real hard for a man that's never wrong... just kidding! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
As I try to do with the fog-talk, I just let it roll through... One of my favorite pseudo-quotes (was in a work of fiction) is the Bene Jesserit Litany against Fear, from Frank Herbert's Dune :
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over and through me. And when it has gone I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
I must repeat this a couple of times a day. I will be ok. I can handle this. Yo-yo emotions are difficult to manage, but I can do it.
Just remember that next time WW says there is no hope and that there is just too much damage, think to yourself "I will bend like the willow".
I can't remember how many times my WW told me that there were just too many obstacles. I got tired of counting. I should have made a spreadsheet. Darn it!
You did a good job sticking up for your FWW. I think that after she has time to process things, this will be a net positive for you. She is not having trouble with you, she is having trouble dealing with her own guilt. MC (especially with the Harley) should be able to address this issue. She doesn't like having to deal with the consequences of her actions. Eventually she will come to terms with it. Just continue to be a rock.
she's back on the apartment kick... back to where we were 3 weeks ago - wanting more space, etc.
Says now she thinks she came home too soon, but her mom's is no longer an option - excuses about how the kids don't want to be there, how her mom is anti-marriage and bad for our chances...
I dunno. I can't figure it out. I don't see how she could have had contact, or when, but her behavior is definitely back like it was when they were communicating.
Just ignore it. Tell her you will have none of that talk. Try and have a decent time. Keep meeting her ENs and don't be discouraged by this recent setback. Also, delete those emails before she gets home. You don't want her reading those in her state.
K - she just went out for a 'jog' around the neighborhood... She never jogs.
She spent her last 20 minutes in the house telling my how this won't work, how this is all my fault, and on and on.
I've been insisting since early on that there are really two options here:
1 - come home, commit to working on our marriage 100%. 2 - Start the divorce process, in which I intend to stall, be difficult, fight for custody, do EVERYTHING I can to slow it down. In the end, we become mortal enemies, and spend the rest of our days being bitter over each other.
I've said all along that I don't want a roommate but a wife, and that I need her to at least TRY to work on our marriage. It seems now that she's trying to everything she can to push me away...
She's not saying she's here because she has no option, but that it might be because she's afraid of putting the kids through it.
Hang in there. You can outlast this thing. You will as long as you don't give up and NC with OM is maintained. Have faith in the system and continue to plan A with abandon.
I'm going back to reread that Dobson post... I'm really struggling letting her go... and that's all I can do.
I can't control where she goes / who she sees / what she wants, but I can control my behaviors...
Thanks again for the continued support... I've been reading in the TKO post, but I don't think I'll ever get through it! 700+ pages?? Is that what you do? Write in order to deal with it all?
It certainly helps to talk it out. The TKO thread was primarily intended for Todd but I won't get into his story. The TKO thread is not my original thread. I had four or five others that were much shorter early on in the process. I think maybe TKO did capture my evolution. And it is worth reading Todd's explanation of the tax code. I intend to print that post and frame it.
Believer posted that Dobson excerpt to me several times. The last time it hit home. OTOH timing is everything. I had to get in a place where it was time for me and I got there (and nearly got arrested in the process).
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I can't control where she goes / who she sees / what she wants, but I can control my behaviors...
While that is very true, you have to get to the point where you believe that with all your heart. Are you just saying it or do you really believe it? I really believed it and still do to this day.
But once WW realized that I (and the DDs) could get along just fine without her, I have to believe that humbled her a bit. And life back in Mexico was not going to be easy for her. I can't say for sure what factors influenced her decisions. Maybe some day she'll come here again and post and she can explain it herself. More than likely she won't, however.
All I know for sure is that it is possible to recovery a M from infidelity. I'm glad I came to MB.
I don't think getting gemela involved in MB helped either one of us. She posted with the intent to get members here to convince me that the M was hopeless. Once the A is really over then I see benefit to bringing a WW here but while she is still in contact, there is no way she should be here.
She's back from her mom's... had to go help her with a resume or something... Walks in talking again about the apartment, and how her botox needs to be redone, etc etc.
I try to not stir the antbed, just mention that we should sit down and talk about it later this week once we have a better idea of upcoming expenses... (our oldest D starts college in the fall, oldest D's 1st months apartment rent is due 8/1, etc etc) She goes off on a tangent that she should never have to clear that stuff with me. If she wants it, and we can afford it, then it should be her decision, and on and on. My point was simply that we didn't have a firm grasp on finances at the moment, a lot of unknowns out there, and she wants to spend money on elective cosmetic treatments.
That turns back into me controlling her and never giving her what she wants... as we stand in the house SHE had to have, with the car SHE had to have in the garage, wearing her new Yurman bracelet that SHE had to have. I had to bite my tongue almost to the point of blood to keep from striking back over that last comment.
sidenote : By the way - I read somewhere in one of your posts about some bracelets sending you over the edge once - my WW is a David Yurman fan. I feel your pain, brother!
So - calm thoughts. Peaceful happy thoughts. This isn't really my wife, its my wife's ugly selfish twin. My wife will be home soon, and this one can go then...
I've been reading in the TKO post, but I don't think I'll ever get through it! 700+ pages??
If you go to "My Home" and edit your preferences and maximize the number of posts per page, the TKO thread only becomes 221 pages. That will cut your reading time by 2/3. See how much time you could save?
My WW learned this weekend that you can change out sim cards in a phone, and it becomes 'the other phone'. (during our trip my DD14's cellphone died, and my wife lent her hers.) DD swapped sim cards, and continued merrily talking away... calls show up under her phone, not my WW's.
I think she went and did a second SIM card, and is swapping them in and out to continue contact.
Might be a bit too much 'conspiracy theory', but her behavior over the past 5-6 days is definitely more like it was when she was in contact.
from my perspective, my WW made it an excuse to belittle me in front of friends...
comments on some new reality TV show where a 20something guy gets to choose from women ranging from 20 to 48.. "You know the 40 year old woman will win, we always get the younger guys"
to pointing out to friends "My husband now does all the laundry" (when I work, she does not, she hasn't lifted a finger around the house in months)
finally when joking over a guys recent motorcycle purchase, when his boss asked him who his replacement would be should he get killed in an accident - "Nope - the WIFE gets to choose his REPLACEMENT!"
then in the car she comes unglued on me! and all I did was call her on her inappropriate jokes at my expense...
No - no Jim Beam involved... I was calm - she was the screamer this time...
I can't take this. I don't know what else to do. Taking abuse at home is one thing, but out in public, in front of friends is completely out of line.
then in the car she comes unglued on me! and all I did was call her on her inappropriate jokes at my expense...
How exactly did you call her on it? Care to expand a bit?
BTW, the motorcycle joke IS funny. It just isn't funny to you given your sitch. But it's still funny.
And when my WW tells other people about all the work I do around the house, the other wives get jealous. Is doing laundry embarrassing to you to do laundry? I've learned quite a lot doing it. For example, did you know that black and white make grey? Well I do now!
no - but i do know that if you wash towels with silk negligees (spelling?) they do make for some uncomfortable spots...
I called her on it by saying in a VERY controlled tone that I did not appreciate the jokes at my expense. This couple is aware of whats going on and even the wife said my WW was a little over the edge.
The only two things I said that were in the least bit unacceptable was
1) when I was asked what my kick was to get in shape, lose weight, etc I said I was just trying to roll back the clock a couple of decades - like to be 22 again, because that's what my W seemed to be interested in.
2) and when I was asked about my recent fitness kick, I guess when a man goes from 38/32 slacks to 32/32 in 2 months, and 210+ to 175 # the instant assumption is either sickness or another woman... in my case it was depression, then competition. I simply referred to it as the famous 'infidelity diet'...
again, the couple is very much aware of the situation - the wife has been counseling my WW to end it since she found out. The husband is my best friend / golfing buddy / all around great guy.
I think it was the embarassment of the situation, and my calmness that shook her.
She's asking why can't there be a 3rd option... long term separation - like 6 mos.
I've been pushing for reconciliation or her initiating divorce. She wants separation, with me picking up the bills. I don't want that. I know she doesn't want divorce. But she also doesn't know yet what she wants (at least not today - that seems to change from day to day, week to week.
So here's my other dilemma... I'm about to get a new company car. budget is mid 30's. I can go get a loaded toyota avalon, top of the line, every option, or I can take that 35k, add in some of my $$ and go get a porsche cayman S. To do that, I'll need to drain short term savings, of which my wife wants access to to fund her 'separation'. If its there, she can spend it, if its parked in the garage... well...
I feel your pain! My WW has not lifted a finger in weeks!
She must feel like she is at the "BH Resort" where dinner is prepared, housekeeping done, laundry done, kids cared for!
She comes in from work , go to gym, watch that freaking show called "The View" which I feel feeds her fantasy sometimes with their suggestive comments!
I called her on it by saying in a VERY controlled tone that I did not appreciate the jokes at my expense.
Thought so. This was an LB. What you could have said was that you felt really hurt by her comments. Try to limit yourself to how things she does makes you feel. Don't criticize her actions. Besides, looks like you dished it out pretty good too.
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1) when I was asked what my kick was to get in shape, lose weight, etc I said I was just trying to roll back the clock a couple of decades...
Why didn't you just stop right there? No need for the rest.
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2) and when I was asked about my recent fitness kick, I guess when a man goes from 38/32 slacks to 32/32 in 2 months, and 210+ to 175 # the instant assumption is either sickness or another woman... in my case it was depression, then competition. I simply referred to it as the famous 'infidelity diet'...
You do realize you could have lied.
I'm guessing that other couple felt like they were watching a fight between two 6-year olds. If I were you, I would call them and apologize. Why drag them into this?
Cars are totally uninteresting to me. Boring. But if you are thinking D is a possibility, I wouldn't spend the extra money.
I agree separation is a no-deal. If she goes, she goes for good. Don't send her off on a 6 month f--kfest with OM while you pick up the tab. Better to split the assets now.
that's my worry also... her version of "finding herself" is basically a paid vacation, with 22 yr old benefits.
I have a really hard time accepting that.
Oh, and the car thing? If you EVER get the chance, drive the latest BMW M6. That is one helluva car. V10 - gets all of 10 mpg city, 12 mpg highway, and it literally spews testosterone from the exhaust pipes. But its a little pricey. Cayman S was my 2nd choice, followed by a plain bmw 650i.
My wife got the car of her dreams, why shouldn't I?
swade - my WW thinks she is Gabby off of Desperate Housewives - you know, Eva Longoria? I think she even started her romance with the younger man as part of her 'character emulation' mode...
Lucky you - your wife works? Mine just shops, talks on the phone, drives around, and whatever else she can find to get into trouble these days...
Oh, and the car thing? If you EVER get the chance, drive the latest BMW M6. That is one helluva car. V10 - gets all of 10 mpg city, 12 mpg highway, and it literally spews testosterone from the exhaust pipes. But its a little pricey. Cayman S was my 2nd choice, followed by a plain bmw 650i.
drive it ONCE and repost that... I double dog dare you!
Can we spell "mid-life crisis"?
I am pretty happy with my Fireblade. I don't like cars. I like motorcycles. Driving a car is like watching life on a movie screen. I like the smorgasbord of smells you get on a motorcycle (except when riding behind a garbage truck). I like riding on hot days and, no matter how hot it is, going through little "pockets" of cool and wondering how that is possible. I like riding long distance on a hot sunny day and seeing a thunderstorm looming on the horizon and struggling with indecision. I like riding on a day so cold I can't feel my fingers and having to alternately put my hands on the cylinder heads to warm them back up.
I hate riding in sand storms though. That just plain hurts.
How about spending your money getting counseling with the Harleys?
Quit correcting or educating your wife. Let her disrespectful comments roll off your back, or just tell her that her comments hurt your feelings. Do not engage in her back and forth criticism. It just helps her justify her behavior. It is going to be a while to fill up her love bank again. Withdrawals like this only prolong your agony. Work at meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs. Don't push for anything, but when she brings up separation, let her know in know uncertain terms you will not agree to it, but you can't control her, so if she wants to move out and take care of her own finances, you can't stop her. She won't do it. You are just going to have to wait this one out for another six months. You'll probably notice significant improvement after NC w/ OM for 4-6 months. Just be patient and work a GOOD plan A.
Piojitos - yes, most definitely a MLC. Can't imagine why... what with self esteem issues and a wife that likes 22 year olds.
Same story, different thread, wife is threatening to go to lawyer to get access to all $$. Says we can afford it from savings. (which is true, we can.) Says my arguments against are unfounded. (which I STRONGLY disagree with...) Says its all she needs to figure this out.
I'm telling her to go back to her mom's. Stay there. Figure it out. Call me when you want to talk again, or when you've decided you want out of the M.
k. I accepted your advice, called her and apologized for whatever it was I said last night either in the restaurant, the car ride to or from the restaurant, and home that set her off. I said that I don't know what triggered your anger at me, but I am sorry. If she can tell me what it was that set her off, I would do my best to avoid those comments / conversations unless absolutely necessary.
She apologized in return, but only for her anger in front of the kids. Not for what she said.
I know that recovery is rough, but its almost rougher than when I KNEW what she was doing, because I could logically understand her decisions/comments/motivations. Now, I am constantly wondering about the 'why'.
You don't need to know why. Just verify NC, continue to make love bank deposits, avoid withdrawals, and wait it out until she falls in love with you again. The longer you fight it, the longer it will take. Just be patient.
She insists that she shouldn't have to 'work with you' on affording an apartment and moving out? That this is you 'controlling her'?
Next time she does that, remind her that this is a MARRIAGE. That means that you DO have to work together on this kind of stuff...its not control, its common courtesy and taking care of your FAMILY's needs over anything else.
You've commented that she doesn't want a divorce...that she wants you to foot all the bills.
Make it CLEAR...VERY VERY CLEAR...she's welcome to move out if she likes...there's nothing you can do to stop her. She's a grown woman, able to make big girl choices. But if that's what she choses to do, she funds it herself...just like a big girl has to do. If she wants to make choices on her own, she funds and deals with those choices ON HER OWN. Marriages require JOINT decisions, and are JOINTLY funded. (I don't just mean money here, either.)
To me, this is simply part of 'suffering the consequences'.
On a totally seperate note. On the SIM card issue. Tear a tiny piece of paper and put it behind the SIM card in her cell phone. Make it a very tiny piece off of a corner of a sheet. If she changes the SIM card out, that little piece of paper is likely to fall out and she won't even notice, or will just think it was scrap from her purse/pocket. No way that it could fall out if that compartment wasn't opened. If you check and find it gone, its time to get a digital recorder put where you might be able to catch her conversations.
Okay. Better than nothing. One piece of advice. No matter what the circumstances, a man should never tell a woman "I'm sorry for whatever it was I said or did that made you mad". They don't like that. Women!
A better approach might have been something like:
"I said some things last night that were mean. I guess I was angry but, even so, a husband should never say things like that to or about his wife. I'm really sorry".
More or less.
And by the way, I hope you recognize the brilliance in that. The genius is that you are completely side-stepping the problem of having to admit that you have no clue why you are apologizing. Women!
K - remember the sisters I mentioned 10-12 pages back? (both have had A's, one is good, is truly a model FWW, the other is bad - capital B bad - continues to have short term PA's) Well, she's 'out to dinner' with the bad one.
Story goes that the bad one's husband finally had enough, and moved out. She was 'there' for my WW when she needed someone to talk to, so my WW feels its her obligation to be 'there' for her.
I stated as a condition before she came back that I did not want her going out with bad sister in any sort of nighttime activities - if they need to talk, they can do it here, her house, whatever. People talk in other places than bars. Although she agreed to it on 6/8, she now says that that's asking too much.
It's now 11pm, she's been out since 7:30. I'm not calling her to check up, but I am about to lose my cool. It's all I can do to keep from calling and starting the grand inquisition...
This is a huge trigger for me... whether its 'girls night', dinner with friends, a womans volunteer organization meeting, my wife has used them all as excuses to carry on her A. And she's out again. Just weeks after coming home, saying how she was going to work 120% to save our marriage, honor my requests, etc etc etc. I swear I am about to break. My patience is wearing down. My love is thinning out. I'm not sure I can continue this. She is absolutely showing me no respect or appreciation. I understand that its really early in recovery (if we're even there yet) but her behavior makes me want out and never look back.
I hate the person I become when she plays me this way. I hate it, but cannot change.
She just ignored one of your boundaries. How are you going to enforce it?
Do nothing and she will continue to push the envelope further and further. Put your foot down now, and she'll learn not blatantly disregard your boundaries.
Another bad night. She came home after 4 hrs in a restuarant with her girlfriend, and evidently her GF isn't a fan of mine either. (But then, she is a cheater too, whose husband just left her, so I'm not taking it too personally...)
WW has told me that she has never felt as much for me as she did her recent man. And that she doesn't think she ever could. And that that relationship, even though its over and she doesn't intend to restart it, has opened her eyes to what true happiness is, and that she's never felt that way with me - ever.
She's VERY mean tonight... Let's just say I've always had esteem issues, and now, well, it's not going to be any better.
In my counseling session today we discussed my concern over separation... I don't believe I'm that concerned over this specific OM, I think what is more on my mind that if she moves out, the last of my love goes too. And without me maintaining this relationship, we're done.
I have asked her to move out and file for divorce tomorrow. I don't view separation as an option for me, and she doesn't see remaining under the same roof... is there another option that I've overlooked?
The question is are you ready for plan B? Is your mind and heart in sync? Got patience in your pocket? Do you know HOW to identify and respond to WS babble?
I have asked her to move out and file for divorce tomorrow. I don't view separation as an option for me, and she doesn't see remaining under the same roof... is there another option that I've overlooked?
Why did you do this? There is an option of her staying and you continuing to plan A, but I guess you overlooked that option. You need patience. Tell her you don't want a divorce, and she can stay, but you aren't moving out. Get control of yourself. Quit blowing your plan A every time your WW says something that bothers you.
Her staying isn't an option. She's moving further and further away from me emotionally. I can't even come in the bathroom when she's showering now. She no longer even kisses me good night. I believe that if she stays, I will be emotionally empty in a matter of weeks.
The more and more she treats me this way, the less i want her to stay. If neither of us loves the other, how can we make it work? I feel like I've carried this on my back since January, when I realized what an [censored] I had been to her. And its absolutely wearing me down. The more she tries to fight with me, the less i want her around. So is it plan b time? Isn't that the purpose of a plan b? Attempt to save whats left of my love?
Suck it up. The reason that things are worse is because you are LBing. Meet her ENs, avoid LBs, and start filling up her love bank. This will likely take about SIX MONTHS! If emotional therapy is what you need, THEN GET IT if you are serious about saving your marriage. If you don't believe you can turn this thing around, then she won't either. If you want to save this marriage, then SUCK IT UP! For the first two months after my WW ended her affair in November, she told me she was never going to have sex with me again. Well, guess what, we started having sex this month, and it is better and more often than the two years prior to the affair. Don't think that I didn't have moments where I thought I couldn't go on much longer. STOP LOVE BUSTING!
She went back into wayward mode when they went on vacation with his family and they kept making snide remarks at her expense.
I agree that you need to be snooping to verify NC, but you also need to apologize for your behavior the past few days. She is afraid that you haven't changed, and that things will go back to the way they were before the affair when you were and *ss and she was extremely unhappy. You need six months of plan A to show her that things WILL BE DIFFERENT.
Snoop to verify NC (I hope the emails have been erased), block all access to OM, but let her know you don't want a D or her to move out, and plan A your butt off. Put your needs on hold!
The reason that things are worse is because you are LBing.
Bullcrap!!! This is total nonsense.
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Meet her ENs, avoid LBs, and start filling up her love bank. This will likely take about SIX MONTHS!
Do this only if you are willing to live and accept SIX MONTHS of unrelenting h*ll from A VERY ACTIVE and UNREPENTANT WS. If you don’t mind facing your WW everyday for the next SIX MONTHS while she is screwing OM (or another one), JMWC may be on to something. Otherwise, you may want to try another approach.
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you also need to apologize for your behavior the past few days. ..You need six months of plan A to show her that things WILL BE DIFFERENT.
Given what has recently transpired, this is just bad advice.
I also agree 100% with Owl that contact has been reestablished; you just can’t see it. I surmise that your WW is either currently screwing someone else or plans to do so soon. The fact that she won’t let even you come in the shower evidences her CURRENT WS state of mind.
You need to decide how much crap and crumbs you are willing to accept from her. If I were you, I would start preparing for plan B or D. Get your ducks in row, as events have just taken a very, very bad turn.
Have you been keeping up with this thread? His WW agreed to NC, it has lasted for 7 weeks, and only after being publicly ridiculed by his parents, she is reconsidering her decision to work on the marriage. FLB is making matters worse by flipping out.
I agree that if she hasn't, she may try and contact OM again. You need to ramp up the snooping. Telling her that you want her to file for divorce will only justify her desire to contact OM. Verify NC, but continue to plan A. You do not discuss divorce with a WW.
You were on the right track, but you had a bad week. Don't give up because you hit a bump in the road. Use this to help refocus your efforts. I'm confident your marriage will last as long as you don't give up. If you give up, that's understandable and it's your choice. But if you still want to save it, keep at it. I know that we'd all like a quick fix, but it usually doesn't happen that way. Keep fighting the good fight, but it's better to fight smart than fight hard.
thanks folks - I appreciate the posts on this day I was out of the office.
Got my new company car... a beautiful new loaded toyota avalon... not the Cayman or the 650i that I dream of, but a VERY nice car. Its good to have some positive things happen.
I don't believe WW has reestablished contact. Emails are gone. No home phone or cellphone calls to/from any unknown #'s. Her NC has been since 5/28 thereabouts, so not 7 weeks, but a good solid 3.
I pushed every one of her buttons last nite trying to trigger her, to try and determine her mental state. At the end of it, she's still saying she loves me, but doesn't know what she wants.
She called me from apartment complex this afternoon. Apparently, if you don't work, don't have any income, don't have any savings or any real credit, you can't lease an apartment! Imagine that! So she called me to come sign her lease... I told her I needed time to think on that one - that I wasn't confident in her decisionmaking skills at the moment and I needed to assess the situation.
She starts work on Monday... funny, but she's been telling all her GF's about how her check will pay for her clothes, her botox, etc... lol - it won't cover her rent.
I need to think long and hard on this one. I am tempted to write her a big check, hand it over, and tell her to come see me in 6 mos when the lease is over to tell me what she thinks then. I know I have to let her go, let her make her own decisions, because any pressure or manipulation I apply will only come back to bite me in the a$$ later on. But like I told my IC, I am very afraid that the second after she leaves, for the 4th time, this time to an apartment, this time for at least 6 mos, that my love will depart simultaneously. I really worry if I will have anything left should she want to come back.
I guess it is no surprise why she wants the apt. She wants space for the affair and have OM move out from his 'mommy'.
I see you are on a rollercoaster ride .... you have older teenagers - right?
What is their take on this situation? A middle aged mom wanting to date a 22 yo sounds kind of creepy. I have a 25 and 19 yo - can't imagine my 48 yo W wanting to date someone of that age.
It seems these boards are getting loaded with 40+ WW having a mid life crisis lately.
Oldest is still 17. WW told her about OM about 6 weeks back, prior to graduation and finals week. She BARELY got out. That last 2 weeks of school she constantly used 'our situation' to skip, reschedule tests, excuse her bad behavior, and on and on.
My two younger ones know that Mom and Dad aren't happy, but don't know the details.
My WW is absolutely focused on my near miss EA in January. Not her, not her dishonesty, not her continuing her affair after exposure, but me.
Yes, it is creepy. There are so many connections between OM and many of my friends... His wife sold my best friend his house. He worked for another friend laying tile, but got fired for being a pi$$ poor employee. He was best friends with a guy that was killed in a car wreck two summers ago... that my oldest was dating at the time. He was at the funeral with my daughter and WW. He's currently hanging out with another group of guys that are brothers to another friend of mine. See what I mean - like freaky weird how many connections there are.
I have developed a theory that there are really just a handful of 'real people', that most everyone else we see/interact with aren't real, they are simply figments. Almost like the Matrix, with all of this being dreamed by a 'group-dream'. (OK enough weird late night coffee thoughts...)
OM's family, including his mom, are now referring to him as 'Robin's Cabana Boy'.
My roller coaster ride is about to end. I've got to get off...
You have come this far, don't give up now. Tell her you want to stay married, but you are willing to take it slow for a LONG time. Work on building up that love bank. Do not talk about divorce, and DO NOT ENABLE!
It's only been a few weeks of NC. Try and ride the storm out a little longer. No LB, meet her ENs, verify NC, and don't talk D for two months and re-evaluate the situation then.
thanks J - I appreciate the support but I find it so hard to be in this relationship right now. I am wondering if truly 'letting her go' figure it out would be the best for me (and us) right now.
She's not giving up 'girl's nights', knows where OM goes on which nights of the week, and actively tries to stage accidental encounters.
Her lack of remorse, her continued 'barfly' type behavior, and her selfishness are killing me day by day. I am truly wondering if a plan B might be in order to help wake her up.
Also - if you have time, pls review this other post and help my with my side of the blame...
I wouldnt make fast decisions when the emotions are so raw.
I can see where a 180 may make more sense in your case rather than a strict Plan A. The 180 (there is a link somewhere) is like a in between plan a / b stage. Try that if and when she moves out. It will show a mature H handling a awful situation while she slums with a youngster. This A is just too wierd.
I personally found it easier and was effective. It also prepares you for a plan b or d whenever you need to. FaithfulwifeCJ had a link recently on this.
See Below:
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. 2. No frequent phone calls. 3. Do not point out good points in marriage. 4. Do not follow her around the house. 5. Do not encourage talk about the future. 6. Do not ask for help from family members. 7. Do not ask for reassurances. 8. Do not buy gifts. 9. Do not schedule dates together. 10. Do not spy on spouse. 11. Do not say "I Love You". 12. Act as if you are moving on with your life. 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive. 14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc. 15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. 16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. 17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse. 18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing 19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around. 20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while). 21. Never lose your cool. 22. Don't be overly enthusiastic. 23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger). 24. Be patient 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. 26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out. 27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). 28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. 29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write. 30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy. 31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. 32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared. 33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. 34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.
thanks J - I appreciate the support but I find it so hard to be in this relationship right now. I am wondering if truly 'letting her go' figure it out would be the best for me (and us) right now.
She's not giving up 'girl's nights', knows where OM goes on which nights of the week, and actively tries to stage accidental encounters.
Her lack of remorse, her continued 'barfly' type behavior, and her selfishness are killing me day by day. I am truly wondering if a plan B might be in order to help wake her up.
Also - if you have time, pls review this other post and help my with my side of the blame...
What is best for the both of you is to make this work. It is harder to work on the marriage when you are split up. Separating will only give her the green light to pursue an affair. Put an end to girls night out. If she continues, pack her crap and put it on the driveway and tell her to find somewhere else to stay (and you don't give her a check). She'll throw a fit, but she'll learn not to walk all over you. Expose her partying lifestyle to her family and friends again if you have to.
What are you doing to fill up her lovebank? What are her top ENs? How have you been meeting them?
You want immediate results. If you want you want to save your marriage without having to work for it for 6+ months, then you don't want to save your marriage.
If you want the M to work, work the plans. If you are unsure, figure it out. I wouldn't sty with her at this point... but that is me. If she went NC and is now breaking it, then IMHO... it is time for plan B. You cannot enable the A by paying for her apartment that she will most likely screw around in. Set your boundaries... and enforce them. Contact at this point... or attempted contact is a reason to move to Plan B immediately. Do not be guilted into making decisions here by some that will say you don't want this if you are not doing it their way. You get to decide what you want and why... and breaking NC is a reason to go dark on someone. Confront her with the truth and let her know that you know and that this will not be tolerated any longer. Let her make her choices and then deal with all the consequences that come along with that choice.
Her A cannot last a fortnight. Even OM's mother is making fun of him. This is a joke to everyone but you and WW and your kids. The question now is will you want her back.
she has not completed the EN worksheet. I left her a note this morning asking her to review a section out of HNHN and complete the survey, and she called me when she got up and blasted me for having the nerve to ask her to do that.
I can guess at her EN's, and they are:
physical attractiveness conversation affection financial support either Admiration or Family commitment
Her family & friends think I'm psycho. They think I should just 'let her be' and see what happens, and that I am wrong to try and save my marriage. Her mom has been thru ~4 marriages and divorces. Her brother is married and divorced, and is now expecting his 1st child out of wedlock. so I don't get a lot of morality-based support from that side of the fence.
I am trying to hit her (guesstimated) EN's. She's preventing much of my actions, and is ridiculing me to friends and family. She won't allow any conversations, without turning it back to me and my mistakes.So I can't have any conversation for conversations sake. I'm working on the physical attractiveness part, losing weight, staying clean and well dressed, but she 'can't stand to be in the same room with me'. Affection is a definite no-no, and financial support is a hot button, so when I just told her that I would not pay for her apartment or cosign the lease with her, she views that as a 'lack of financial support' which is a huge LB for her.
I'm at a loss here. I don't see how a Plan A would work given her mental state, and the 180 plan sounds like a possibility so I'll read up on that one.
"when I just told her that I would not pay for her apartment or cosign the lease with her, she views that as a 'lack of financial support' which is a huge LB for her."
Of course it is. But you just keep on refusing.
She wants to move out? She can pay for it. Or she can get the money from Mom, Dad, Brother or OM. Let him at least pay for it.
The money YOU earn, for YOUR family, is to be used for YOUR family. Not so WW can live a "Single" life in her apartment.
Will she continue to link your potenial EA to her actions? You bet. And if you had not had the Potential EA, she would link it to something else.
All these are justifications for her being an adulteress.....
Thanks LG - this just went from very bad to phenomenally bad.
I was forced to sell some assets to insure that we had cash on hand to cover any expenses that came up, with my biggest concern being legal fees, potential for another residence (WW's apartment), and the potential of my job being in jeopardy based on my poor performance.
I didn't discuss with my wife - I probably should have in hind sight, but I did not. She saw a bank statement today and flipped when I told her what I had done. Says she's filing charges for my illegal activities, will immediately push for divorce, etc etc.
I told her that what I did I did only to secure our immediate short term finances, as well as the potential for longer term expenses.
She sees it as me hiding stuff. Nothing is hidden. Nothing is spent inappropriately. Nothing surreptitious. I just didn't tell her about it. Her words were 'fraudulent conversion'...
Any legal eagles hiding out there that know what that means in english?
Is there a legal seperation in place, are you both joint account holders?
She can't say anything until there is a legal seperation.
Now on one had you shouldn't leave that money in a joint account you need to insure she can't get it and decide to take it for her apartment. You need to put it in an account you control and then show her the statement that the assets are there.
Now down the road those assets can be divide so you have to keep track what you spend it on, if its to pay down marital debt she can't argue it, if you spend it on a big screen tv then they can claim a portion of what you spent on it as her's and either as you to sell it to get the value back or give her cash equalivant.
no - no legal separation. She has left 2x and come home 2x, but never anything formal.
I maintain joint checking and savings accounts. I also maintain individual checking and savings accounts in my name only.
My paycheck, expense checks, and any other checks received through my business are deposited into the indiv accounts. I transfer money to the joint accounts as needed to keep them positive. Not a lot more.
I have stated from the earliest point in this crisis that despite the use of secondary accounts, my intent is not to hide or divert any marital assets, only to protect them for our children's benefit... I guess that got forgotten when she saw some zeros...
I am actually considering this 180 deal. It sounds like something I would be better at than just trying to 'be the best me' in plan A.
Do you know if she is ATTEMPTING CONTACT, or is she REALLY IN CONTACT with OM?
If she's actively in contact, asking her to do the EN survey is a blatant waste of time. Of COURSE she doesn't want to do anything that could give your marriage a chance.
You've said that she's 'ridiculing you in front of her family and friends'. Have you had a sit down conversation with her family and made it very clear what you're doing, and why? Asked for their help? Exposed completely this latest evidence of contact? With her friends, its likely to be meaningless...maybe less so than with her family.
Have you painted the picture to your WW of what life after divorce will be like for the two of you? (No friendship, no support from you of any kind, described what you're like to think/feel about her after the divorce due to her affair) Made it clear that you'll NEVER forgive her, NEVER be willing to be near her again if she ends your marriage due to her affair? Painted the picture of Christmas's and holidays with the kids split between homes, or spent WITHOUT one or the other of the two of you?
It was this picture of reality that jarred my wife to reality so badly that OM ended it with her. It was the fact that we WEREN'T going to end up being some kind of twisted "big happy extended family", and that the reality was that her leaving me for him would result in the DESTRUCTION of our family and our friendship that opened her eyes and made her doubt what she was doing.
Its all part of letting her suffer the consequences of her choices. Let her see this up front...NOW, before it happens.
Make it clear that you love her, and want her back...NOW. But there will be a time in the future where all of that will change if she continues on this path.
Who cares what she says. Just ignore her and talk to her only when she calms down. Tell her you aren't hiding money because you aren't going to divorce her.
i have remained steadfast in my statements to WW on the subject of "what if it doesn't work?"
Even before I found MB, I told her we had 2 options:
1) both of us commit the rest of our lives to each other and working to repair the damages that we have BOTH done to EACH OTHER, working towards restoring our broken marriage;
2) Divorce. (So ugly it ought to be a 4 letter word!) We split, we fight continually. This won't be amicable. I will fight for custody to ensure my children are brought up in a home under my care. We end up hating each other. Not being able to attend weddings, childbirth of grandkids, nothing ever, together. We will end up poorer than we are today, with angry vindictive feelings towards each other that will never heal. The kids will be damaged by this. They will join the rest of the "statistics" - and probably repeat our actions in their lives.
She's reestablished contact. She had a convo with her cheater GF where she stated that she hoped the cheater husbnad didn't talk to me, or I didn't ask him to look @ phone bill. I don't know how long its been going on (again, if it ever stopped...) but they are communicating.
I can just imagine the sort of Tristan&Isolde-type scene where she pledges her undying love to him until they can be together... and he does to her...
So I am thinking return home from work, stay calm, and tell her I don't want a divorce, but if she does I would be glad to get started fighting her on it now, vs in 6 mos. once she's done with her lease. (Which I won't sign...)
Heres the email I just sent her: ************************** I'm sorry you were so upset earlier today when you called me. I can assure you, as I did before, that nothing is being done to hurt our family, only protect it and see that our needs are being met. I am willing to sit down and go over finances with you at any time you are interested. I have never once told you that you couldn't see any of our financial information.
I understand your negative view of the **** sale. I can assure you that the sale was completely legit, was based on solid financial review, and the price was appropriate given the amount of risk for an outside, non-employee investor. I was forced into this by your last push for an apartment in late May. I had no options. My pay was cut, I was afraid for my job, you said you were going to get a job but had nothing lined up, and we have college expenses bearing down on us like a ton of bricks, including an apartment payment >$500 @ **********. We could have sold our car to get a lesser expensive or more economical vehicle, but I would never think of asking you to give I up. I know how much you enjoy your mercedes. Selling the house is a long term deal, especially given the current market. We might want to consider this anyway if you still intend to move out. We can go for a while, but this is what we have to work with. Believe me - I could not find any other means of generating cash other than what I did.
I want our marriage to work. All I asked of you was to see at least our counselors together prior to taking this next step, along with some other minor things... I am afraid that once you leave in this final step, I won't be there for you regardless of what you decide.
**** - you are an adult, and its time to make some adult decisions. If you want out, get out. File for a legal separation (whatever that is), for divorce, or just go. If you think you might not want out - even a chance - then you should stay. Like you said last week - we both knew this was going to be hard. I fear that despite knowing what's best for you, for the kids, for the family, you just don't have the integrity, the strength and the will to make it happen. I hope I'm wrong. I pray I'm wrong.
I fear that despite knowing what's best for you, for the kids, for the family, you just don't have the integrity, the strength and the will to make it happen.
You have got to avoid making statements like these if you want any chance of working things out. This is a MAJOR disrespectful judgment love buster. Don't let statements like these cancel out all the positive changes you've made.
I fear that despite knowing what's best for you, for the kids, for the family, you just don't have the integrity, the strength and the will to make it happen.
WOW! That was a BIG DJ! She's gonna keep that one around. WW will reread that line whenever she does something she needs to justify!
You do realize that the only thing from that email she is going to focus on is that parting shot don't you?
You need to be VERY careful to avoid LB's, DJ's, & AO's at this point if you want to have a chance at recovery.
DON'T subsidize her A. REFUSE to pay for her appt. PROTECT you assets so she can not plunder them!
Let you WW do ALL the legwork if she wants her "Freedom". Let her get help from her "new" family and friends.
REALITY will be a big cold hard slap in the face when she sees what she has wroght!
Got home, she had told kids she is filing for divorce on Monday, that this is unsalvageable. All 3 kids were in sort of shock. S12 was crying.
She's set on ending it, and out of everything I've done, she's done, we've done to each other, she's focused on the sale of an asset to provide our family some financial support. Says that she didn't know how bad I was - how evil and mean spirited and on and on.
I called my atty, let him know to be expecting me within the next 2 weeks.
OK, ok I get the DJ thing but sometimes when that pitch comes in just over the plate, a little low and outside... you just have to knock it out of the park... I HAVE REALLY been trying to avoid them, and probably only 1 out of 20 escape my lips (or fingers). Now her brother is texting me telling me how bad I messed up, how I'm gonna end up alone and broke, etc etc. I've basically told him to shut up and back off - not his fight.
BIL's GF is also trying to turn up the heat, talking about all the evidence of what a bad guy I am... again, not really caring about her either.
I've told all my kids that I don't want a divorce, I want a marriage, but WW has started them swaying towards "if you get a D you won't have to fight..."
I will press back and delay, and try to do a good 180. Distant, but pleasant, available but not engaged, etc.
today was ok- spent most of it out of the house, either at the pool or with my friends.
She's bitter bitter bitter... She got upset for me calling her baby last night... said I've lost the right to call her baby... other things as well.
I am not responding other than "I'm sorry that you're so upset about...", and telling her that this was done to ensure our family's financial security, NOT take anything away from us.
I believe that she put a plan together around the time I found out, that involved 1) get a job, 2) get an apartment, and 3) divorce me once some time had passed.
To make her plan work, she was counting on a lot of $$ coming to her from our D, but it can't now, and I think that's why she's so bitter & angry.
yes - half of what I got is hers... I believe there are two factors at work:
1) her dad had an affair on her mom, ended up leaving her mom for OW, and through the time up to divorce, sold all their stuff - businesses, land etc. then went and hid money. So after D, her mom got virtually nothing but the equity in house, still had to pay it off herself.
2) reanalysis of her past decisions, some of the stuff she sent to friends, our conversations, etc leads me to believe that she's been considering this for far longer than I've known about her A. I also believe that she thought that my portion of my company that I sold off was worth far more than it was in actuality, so when she found out what I was paid for it, she immediately assumed I was doing it to punish her, like her dad did her mom.
The point I am trying to get across to her is that I don't want a D, I don't want separation, I want us to continue working on our marriage. My actions were taken to secure our cash needs for the next couple of years, and considering all the pressure she and her family were putting me under to get her an apartment, I had to have some way of paying for that.
So we'll see. She's still not talking to me. Doesn't ignore me and will respond when I ask her something, but not much else. Tomorrow is supposed to be the day she goes to her attorney.
no options, no other choices, I want my wife to stay, not go. I don't think what I did was stupid, but ensuring that these next couple of challenging years would be less stressful.
If she is leaving over money, when its a LOT easier to get than love, she isn't the person I thought she was.
no options, no other choices, I want my wife to stay, not go. I don't think what I did was stupid, but ensuring that these next couple of challenging years would be less stressful.
If she is leaving over money, when its a LOT easier to get than love, she isn't the person I thought she was.
You are DJing, and I'm sure you DJ to her quite a bit with statements like these. Why would she come back to a marriage that she wasn't happy with in the first place? She doesn't think you can change. You are showing her that you can't. The biggest part of plan A is improving YOURSELF. You seem unwilling unable to do so. You are in denial, and putting all the blame on her. She may still have a wayward state of mind, but her affair was over for several weeks. Instead of being a safe place for her to fall back to, you (and your family) have been LBing like crazy. Now is the time that is the most critical not to LB. You haven't ruined things completely, but get back to working on yourself, and plan Aing your WW. Suck it up, and you can get through this, but it will take a LONG time.
WW had her consult with her D atty today. and came home tonite with the following ultimatum. I must immediately meet the following demands, or she's filing for divorce:
1) undo the asset sale she sees as deceitful 2) admit what I did in Jan was worse than what she did (is doing??) 3) 'Come clean' about the extent of my event in Jan. (I have, but she doesn't see it that way.) 4) Agree that she never has to see/spend time with either of my parents ever again.
She also goes on to very clearly state that EVEN IF I meet all of her demands, she's not guaranteeing that she'll ever be able to forgive me... or that we'll work out.
I am at a loss. At some point, sanity has to come to the forefront, right? I can certainly meet some of these requests, but a couple are undoable. I don't trust her. I'm not sure if I can ever trust her. And to go so far as make demands of ME, especially where we are now?
What was the line from Seinfeld... "SERENITY NOW!!!"
If it's no. 4 that is making you reluctant, don't let it. When you get married your first loyalty is to your spouse and your kids, not your family of origin, not even your parents. That doesn't mean YOU have to cut off contact with your parents. But if she thinks her relationship with them is that toxic, there's no reason she has to spend any time with them at all. When I was growing up, my paternal grandparents caused an awful lot of problems for my parents until my mom cut off all contact with them and my dad supported her decision. (Eventually the silent feud did come to an end.)
2) admit what I did in Jan was worse than what she did (is doing??)
What did you do in January? Wasn't it something along the lines of oogling over BIL's GF? All you have to do is say what you did was horrible and indefensible, you are truly sorry for it, and these are the step you are going to take to prevent hurting her again. I wouldn't say it is better or worse than anything, but I would just say it is comparable.
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3) 'Come clean' about the extent of my event in Jan. (I have, but she doesn't see it that way.)
Again, tell us the FULL truth of your "event" and maybe we can help you discuss it with your WW. Don't get defensive, just stay calm and answer ALL her questions 100% truthfully. If I'm correct, I believe that she thinks you had an EA, but she didn't say anything, and then she had an EA, but you exposed to everyone. Now she feels that she looks like the bad person when you are just as guilty. Just talk to your wife about it. What is there to lose?
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4) Agree that she never has to see/spend time with either of my parents ever again.
Done and done. Your parents really screwed the pooch in their dealings with her, and she shouldn't be subjected to that. Your first allegiance is to your W.
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She also goes on to very clearly state that EVEN IF I meet all of her demands, she's not guaranteeing that she'll ever be able to forgive me... or that we'll work out.
Sure, but you know better because you've learned so much here, right? Fill up her love bank and things will work out in the long run. Just be patient.
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I am at a loss. At some point, sanity has to come to the forefront, right? I can certainly meet some of these requests, but a couple are undoable. I don't trust her. I'm not sure if I can ever trust her. And to go so far as make demands of ME, especially where we are now?
What was the line from Seinfeld... "SERENITY NOW!!!"
Why are these requests undoable? If you want to save your marriage, then you MUST do them. You REALLY hurt her this past year, but she sees you downplaying what you did. I think you are downplaying what you did to the forum. It doesn't matter what you think, it matters how she feels about it. You hurt her. She doesn't trust that you won't hurt her again. Show her you have changed. Meet her ENs, and for god's sake, AVOID LBs. That is your problem. Your taker is in control of you. You want everything to be fixed right away. You don't want to give to her because she hasn't been giving to you. This attitude will only find you divorced and a part time dad. Is that what you want? Then suck it up and put your taker on hold. And be honest with yourself and with her about what you did. That's my advice, take it or leave it. If you take it, I promise you'll save your M. I just don't know if you can actually follow through.
Okay I admit this is a little negative and I know it is just a remote possibility.
But the type of advice a D lawyer WOULD give her would be something like:
"Your H had the legal right to sell the asset. We might try to state the case that you were cheated out of equity hoping the judge will allow you more in the settlement but it will be difficult to prove that he sold it below market value and, even if we could, you still will likely only get 50%. So if you divorce now, you will get significantly less in the settlement. So I recommend that you go home and convince your H to reverse the sale. Tell him you are not filing. Once he does reverse the sale, then file for divorce. I'll have the papers already drawn up. Once we file, we also file an injunction so he won't be able to dispose of any assets without your and the court's consent. mwaaahaahaa MWAAAhaahaa!"
[Okay so maybe he didn't actually add that wicked laugh at the end. I just think D lawyers are inherently evil so maybe I let my imagination get the better of me.]
So she comes home and gives you ultimatum #1 which is her goal and 2 thru 4 as a smoke screen to throw you off the scent. In fact, if you fully disclose an A, then she has extra dirt on you! When you do reverse the sale and she then files for divorce, she will remind you that she never gave you any guarantees that the M would work out so she has every right to the D.
I would think that sale through very carefully. JMHO but something isn't kosher here. Right now that may be the only card you're holding.
If I can give you a Cliff's Notes version of what she told you after seeing her lawyer, it is:
1) Get my money back for me. 2) Admit that I'm the good guy and you are the one totally at fault. 3) Give me all the dirt on you I can get WITH video. 4) Have the letter "m" stricken from the English language.
[You always make one crazy demand so you can claim the insanity defense..."get my money back". Ha!. Who would ever believe THAT?]
I am somewhat of a conspiracy theorist myself, so I see Piojitos' analysis myself.
When I told her I needed to talk to my counsel before I did anything, she even began threatening to file anyway, regardless of my decision.
I think she receieved advice that she was in a 'bad position', and is now trying to climb back into 'good'.
I've called my attorney, hopefully will get to speak to him today, and can move forward from here. This is not the same woman I married... and I don't like this one.
I'd seriously suggest that you have a sit down discussion with your wife...tonite. Get someone to watch the kids, make arrangements for them to spend the night if need be, and plan on being up for a long time.
I'd sit down with her list in front of you. I'd ask her to skip over number one for now...and move on to the remaining things. AND TALK ABOUT THEM WITHOUT LB'ing OR DJ'ing her at all. Remain calm, no matter what she says or does.
Admit to the full and complete story of whatever happened in Jan. Take full and complete responsibility for it...admit it was wrong, hurtful, etc... Make it clear that you regret it and can see how it contributed to getting your marriage to this crisis situation its in right now. Answer any and all questions she has on the subject up front, without hedging in any way whatsoever. Be that open book you'd want from her. Offer to discuss this further with her at any time its needed to help her deal with what happened and clear the air here.
Make it clear to her that she ISN'T required to deal with your parents in any fashion or form. Don't defend them, don't give her any reason to doubt the truth of what you're saying. Make it clear that SHE is the priority in your life, and that you can understand she's hurt by what they've done. Tell her that you'll help resolve the situation if her choice is to reconcile with you, and that if you can't resolve it, you'll ensure that she has no/minimal interaction with them. Make it clear that you completely EXPECT them to accept her back when everything's done...and that if they don't, then it's THEIR loss, because YOU are accepting her back.
As far as number one...tell her that for the moment, that's going to remain on hold until the two of you can determine the course of your marriage. You made a financial decision to protect your family, and that undoing it at this point when things are still up in the air isn't safe...FOR YOUR FAMILY. DISCUSS it with her. Ask her why this is such a sticking point for her. Try to get her to TALK with you about it, and calmly discuss the whole thing. And let her know that you're also going to discuss this with your lawyer and get his advice on how to protect your family and specifics on how to deal with this sale, and that you'll talk with her about it again after you've talked with him.
I'd agree with the other posters about the damage you're doing with your LB'ing and DJ'ing. If you don't get this wrapped under control, it WILL result in your divorce.
They're RIGHT. You have to make yourself SAFE to talk with. You've got to convince her that she can TALK with you about anything and not have you come down on her like a ton of bricks.
we actually have our next joint MC session tonight... it will be the second time that we've met w/ our counselors since DDay.
We initially met w/a counselor that is the partner of the doc I've been seeing for IC. Following that initial meeting, she (MC) recommended that she see WW alone for next several sessions. At the last IC session, they decided it was time to get us into a session together.
Both counselors will be there with us.
It will be interesting to see how this one goes.
As I commented way way earlier in this thread, my W is definitely a material girl. She doesn't exhibit that by spending a lot, or frequently, but I believe the security of $$ is a big big deal to her. (And she does like nice things, so when she does spend, she really spends...)
Well, are you going to do what we say or what? You have both hurt each other. You don't seem to understand how you hurt her, and she doesn't seem to understand how she hurt you. You are both consumed with your own stance and unwilling to back down. Someone has to suck it up, put there needs aside, stop worrying about who's at fault, suck up their ego, extend the olive branch, and do what it takes to get this thing done and save your marriage. You can either do it yourself, or HOPE that she does it.
Let me tell you this right now, FLB. Your WW does NOT want to divorce you. She is afraid of doing the wrong thing. But she doesn't want to be hurt anymore. You need to make yourself a safe place to recover and convince her that staying with you is the right decision. Screw who is right and who is at fault. Just save your marriage. Here is your chance. Can you suck it up?
Jim - I have tried to address any/all questions she had for me, but (unfortunately?) I have mentally dealt with that situation and have moved on... with the result being that I don't recall a lot of what she says she's being told that I did. It truly is a case of "I can't remember." It was a bad bad time in my life, in my opinion prior to now was the lowest point in my life. I have apologized over and over for it. I have attempted to answer every question directly and completely.
I think Owl hit it on the head. Set issue one aside until we can address everything else. If that's not acceptable, it certainly supports the conspiracy theorists' ideas.
OK...but you're going to have to put some EFFORT into trying to remember what you did.
This whole situation is starting to make me really question what's going on. What you've described ("I can't remember") sounds completely and totally like wayward fog to me. So what DID happen that she's so upset about? You meantioned a "near EA"...you realize that this is likely FAR FAR GREATER to her than you're giving it credit to be, right?
Its sounding more and more to me like a case of a F?WS trying to win back their estranged BS now than anything else.
That DOES change the dynamics quite a bit...your lovebank with her is so far in the hole due to whatever happened in Jan that it's going to take Mt Everest to even it the balance.
Again, that's what this is starting to sound like to me at least. I may be jumping to conclusions here...
Jim - I have tried to address any/all questions she had for me, but (unfortunately?) I have mentally dealt with that situation and have moved on... with the result being that I don't recall a lot of what she says she's being told that I did. It truly is a case of "I can't remember." It was a bad bad time in my life, in my opinion prior to now was the lowest point in my life. I have apologized over and over for it. I have attempted to answer every question directly and completely.
I think Owl hit it on the head. Set issue one aside until we can address everything else. If that's not acceptable, it certainly supports the conspiracy theorists' ideas.
My take is that you are a hypocritical, unrepentant WH who is demanding his WW to repent for her actions, all the while wasting our time and blowing smoke up our @ss. If you can't remember, you better go see a [email]d@mn[/email] hypnotist and get the answers for you because if you don't, you will lose your family. You may have apologized for it, but you haven't truly repented for it. Humble yourself, stay calm, and answer ALL her questions with COMPLETE HONESTY.
Why don't you try to remember exactly what happened, and post it here for us to determine how to address it. If you can't be honest with us, then surely you aren't being honest with your wife.
an example - she is asking me about an email I sent to BIL's GF in January... telling her how unhappy I was...
I recall the emotions, I recall feeling bad about our relationship and marriage, but I don't recall sending an email like that. So - because I don't remember, I'm 'covering up and ignoring' my past.... I've tried to respond with "I don't recall ever sharing that with ZZZ but I do recall having those emotions..."
I beginning to feel like I've lived up to this posts' title "Help - did I do the wrong thing!' because it seems like I have. I've lost my temper several times, I've DJ'd a bunch (and that one took me a long time to realize what I was doing), I've been critical of her and her choices when mine were similar, just not to the same extent. I truly do not want to lose my wife and family. I want us to be together. But by her making demands and ultimatums, I don't feel like she's giving me a chance to ever make it up and for us to repair our relationship.
You had a possibly one-sided EA with BIL's GF. The reason you don't remember it is probably because subconsciously, you want to block it out. What I would do is answer her questions as completely and honestly as possible. If she asks you about the email, tell her something like:
"Yes, I was unhappy at the time. I was a complete and utter mess. Sure, I wanted to have sex with BIL's GF and I probably flirted with her somewhat. I don't remember emailing BIL's GF, but if she says it happened, it happened, and it was completely wrong of me. I honestly don't remember it because I was barely functioning at the time. If you want, we can look at my email together to see if it is still in the sent items folder or if we can pull up the archive. I don't know what else to say. I truly realize now how wrong I was. I didn't mean to hurt you, and now I truly realize how careless my actions were. I will take steps X,Y,Z to ensure these things won't happen again."
If she keeps asking, don't get upset, raise your voice, or act defensive, just take it for a while until she realizes that you have nothing more to tell. Humble yourself. You screwed up. You royally screwed up your marriage last winter. That in no way excuses what she did, but it does shed some insight into her mindset. Suck it up. Be open with her about the past.
In the 1st 5 min of counseling tonight, she stated she can't stand being around me, is doing her best to avoid me here in the house, gets more and more upset every time she thinks about the sneaky dirty underhanded thing I did to her w/ my company, and that she's moving ahead with the divorce.
The counselors were kind of in shock... their next questions were like "So what would you like us to do?" My response was "convince my wife that everything I've done in the past two months has been an atempt at saving my marriage"... I brought up that I thought starting divorce would be my line in the sand... that once she began, I didn't think I would make any more attempts to slow her down or change her mind.
We discussed the kids - unfortunately we both have brought the kids into this consciously and subconsciously. Having conversations where they hear bits and pieces can be worse than them actually hearing it all. We both were scolded for not keeping their wellbeing closer to the forefront.
As it relates to separation or D, I believe my WW is going to push for an immediate D to eliminate any opportunity for statute of limitation type issues on the asset sale deal.
Regardless of separation or D, we also discussed an approach to custody and living arrangements that I had never heard of. Rent a 1 BR apartment, and alternate who stays there. Two weeks with kids, two weeks in apt, (or every other month, or every other week, whatever). The main focus with this approach is that the kids stay in a stable unchanging environment, only the parent changes. Anyone heard of / have any experience with this approach?
I think my WW is going to press forward with the D. While I realize that its not over until, well, we allow it to be over, at what point does fighting for reconciliation turn pitiful and needy? And how can one balance Dobson-type principles of 'setting them free' with wanting to maintain a marriage?
I was forced to sell some assets to insure that we had cash on hand to cover any expenses that came up, with my biggest concern being legal fees, potential for another residence (WW's apartment), and the potential of my job being in jeopardy based on my poor performance.
I didn't discuss with my wife - I probably should have in hind sight, but I did not. She saw a bank statement today and flipped when I told her what I had done. Says she's filing charges for my illegal activities, will immediately push for divorce, etc etc.
I told her that what I did I did only to secure our immediate short term finances, as well as the potential for longer term expenses.
I'm wondering if you won't look back on this some day and realize what an error in judgment this was if you truly wanted to save your M. You were forced? Hardly. I'm really sorry for you for facing an impending divorce but you have just never really gotten with this program.
My guess is that she is going to sue you after the divorce to try to recover what her lawyer will calculate that you "stole" from her. If you get out with a simple divorce, you're lucky.
You can stop talking to her about it for one thing. Refuse to move out. Undo the sale if you can. Refuse to discuss anything pertaining to the dissolution of your marriage. And for god sakes, don't go along with the stupid custody thing. You are not giving up or discussing divorce is what you should have said in counseling today.
You are also dense and are unable to grasp MB or plan A.
This is likely the last time I'll ever post on your thread. But I do recommend you talk to your lawyer.
I would discuss with him thr fraudulent conversion and mention all your WW's threats to see what legal basis she might have. Don't lie to him about being forced to sell. Tell him the whole truth.
Also, ask him about the possibility of a post-nup as a condition for reversing the sale. I doubt WW would go for it and I'm not even sure I would ever bring it up unless your lawyer thinks it has merit.
WW filed last Monday. I have met with my attorney, he has contacted her attorney and papers will be delivered to him rather than served to me.
Depending on the day, the final reason was either the sale of my company, the fact that I told everyone (exposure), too many issues to address, or my favorite - "I just need to be single for a while."
From meeting with my attorney, she's most likely going to receive permanent alimony. Yes - permanent. But we don't know how much yet... She's also going to be receiving some pretty hefty child support for the remaining two minors. So she'll be able to afford living on her own, w/o my 'support' (other than alimony or child support!) for a good long while.
My company sale was not illegal or fraudulent. Her attorney probably advised her to get it reversed, then to file as the chances of getting it revalued in her favor would be much greater, and also it would clearly make it a marital asset at the time of filing. I still stand behind my reason to sell. It covered both our lawyers' retainers and initial consults. It covered repair to our car. It has taken the stress of limited $$ out of this situation. W/o it, we would now be neck deep in debt and panicking over making payments.
Everyone that knows we're getting divorced is in shock, as am I (still!). This just happened so fast... it's <3 months, and she's gone in this relationship. Just wants to put it behind her and move on.
Unfortunately, the kids, all of my family (incl my parents) and me don't want this.I still pray for reconciliation every day. I don't know what God's plan is for me, but I'm asking him to show me some signs.
So that's about it... Dunno what else I can do remedy the situation at this point, so I am allowing her to have her way (be single again). I'm letting her go - so to speak - with hopes that she realizes someday what she walked away from. And maybe we can begin again then.
2 weeks have passed and she still hasn't submitted her paperwork.
She did have enough time to schedule a consult and get a boob job. (Before anyone asks, her brother paid for it)
She has also started talking to me again, telling me she missed me, and on and on. So I don't know - still on this same roller coaster. Want my wife back, the old one, not the crazy new one.
Do women grow out of midlife crises? Does anyone? or does all of the crap raining down around them wake them up?
yeah... from their father's estate. all was left to 1 brother, who afterwards promised to dole it out to family... so thats what the first installment went for.