Seabird,

I'm the one who filed not because I really wanted a divorce but because I knew that I could not continue to accept my husband's unfaithfulness. I haven't had a chance to read through this entire thread but I can answer some of your questions from your original posting.

You ask if there was ever a true change of behavior would I have given the marriage a second chance. Yes, I would and I did. After my husband was unfaithful the first time, I took him back and we did attempt reconcilliation. But trust was never rebuilt and in the end we were not able to stay together.

If he had been willing to try to do what it took to regain my trust, I would not have divorced him. I would have tried again, although, many would have thought me totally foolish to ever give any more chances. I guess I still care and that might be the difference. ( I just wrote about that on another thread. )

What type of person is your wife? Is she the forgiving type? I am considered too forgiving by most people's standards. From what I've observed, there are some who when they say it's over - it's over. There is no going back. For me and my type of personality there was always room for a second chance and a third.... That was and is my problem. I want to believe it can work.

I wish you the best and hope that reconcilliation is possible for you and your wife.

Thanks Leah... I think that my W can be forgiving, and feel deep regret over lost Rs. She estranged herself from her mother several years ago. Their relationship was tenuous for years and her mom really wasn't very good to her or her sisters toward the end. And even after my W thought that it was over between them, she made one last attempt to reach out to her at a huge family gathering almost 10 years ago. Her mom rebuffed her in front of everyone. Though my W has made no attempt to reach out since, I know that she still feels a great deal of hurt and anger over it.

She had a deep falling out with her best friend a year and a half ago and hasn't really looked back since. Though while that relationship was deteriorating, both women seemed to do their level best escalate the problem with each other.

Both of those issues are apples to my orange. I don't think that my M compares to the R between a mother and child. And the sitch with her friend got to where it was because neither side attempted to defuse and disarm. Their fight became a scorched earth campaign.

As for us, I can only hope that over time, her fear and cynicism will soften and she will at least be open to recognizing my successful and consistent change in behavior. But as the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding. I know I can't talk her into giving me another chance. I don't want to talk her into either. I want her back because she'll feel comfortable coming back. I wouldn't have it any other way.

One extraneous factor I believe that will affect her decision is our children. I think she uses them as a sort of canary in the mineshaft when it comes to judging me. While I would never USE them as a means to an end, I am mindful that their feelings for me and how they express them carry weight with my W.

No, I'm not saying that is a matter of fact. It is a matter of perception. You asked, in the ideal scenario, "why not pick me?" I am trying to give you a perspective from the other side of the coin...and doing a lousy job, I might add.

No matter how real and lasting you perceive your changes to be or could become, it is your wifes perception that matters.

For me...the changes you describe, had I seen them in my X, it would not have made a difference. All I could see (or chose to see) was the underlying person prior to any such changes. My mind was made up.

Logic would dictate that your W should pick you, should you change and become everything she desires in a husband but, you are not dealing with logic. You are dealing with emotions and perceptions and state of mind.

After the dust settles, she may still make the illogical choice because her heart is simply not in it anymore.

Thank you ba. This is the clarification I was seeking. I didn't understand that you were offering information based on what my W's point of view could be - indeed what your's was. It goes a long way to understanding that enignmatic "point of no return".

Can I ask you what kind of damage had been done to the M for you to reach such a sense of finality? Do you and your XH still maintain any contact because of children? Finally, how successful were you at coming to an understanding of your own behaviors and actions that led to the failure of the M?

If that last question sounds like I'm baiting, please believe that is not my intent. Understanding and the desire to relate to my own sitch is all that I am after here.

Leah, you and I are cut of the same cloth. I could have posted almost this *exact* thing, with a few minor details changed.

My XH was unfaithful - he had a 2 1/2 year EA. I don't know for sure if he had any others or PA... I may never know - but I found out about the EA after it ended (and we were in MC the whole time the EA was going on - right under my nose!)

We *did* get past that. And honestly I never saw any more cheating type behaviors. I don't think that was who he was, but he got caught up in it and it happened. Not making excuses for him but this deviated completely from the core values, the "essence" of who he was.

We got past that. I forgave, never forgot but I allowed some trust to come back in.

It was other stuff that eventually pushed me to divorce, again not stuff that is typical of his values - but I think between the depression and things going badly between us, he made some bad choices in habits and lifestyle and they were the final nail at that point.

If he'd have sincerely tried - got treatment for the depression and quit the bad behaviors, I wouldn't have filed. I waited a long time - and some of the stuff improved, but he never came to me specifically to try to reconcile - and maybe *I* missed it because I was angry and hurt and didn't want to see it at that point (defensive mode)... if he'd spelled it out I might have given it one more try at that time but I'd heard it all before and none of it ever rang true, so I gave up.

I feel kind of guilty about that - a big part of what happened was due to his depression - and I feel like I abandoned the "in sickness and in health" part of my vows. Unfortunately if the person who's sick isn't trying to get better, there's not much one can do. He closed the barn door after the horse left in that regard, and like I said, by the time he made the *right* choices (or began to), I'd closed the door behind me.

I'm like you though - I can't just shut off feelings. I did what I did to protect myself - emotionally as well as the other financial stuff etc. I'd been so hurt that I never felt like I'd be able to feel again.

But as time passed, the pain subsided and as his changes began to stick, he once again became the upstanding man that I'd married, and that made me sad - sad because he didn't do it "for us". Don't get me wrong - I'm thrilled that he's done it - for HIMSELF - because that's the only real reason anybody can change.. but it was hard to accept that it couldn't seem to happen within the confines of our marriage.

I've forgiven past hurts. I hope he's forgiven me - because I wasn't blameless in the downfall of our M - it takes 2 to fight.

One could look at it and say I was the more injured party - but he may not see it that way. I asked him to move out, I filed for the D and those are pretty huge love-busters. If he can look at the bigger picture and acknowledge his part in it that got us there in the first place, he may be able to come to terms with that, and consider whether or not to give it another try. I'm hoping he's far enough along in his journey to actually take a look at it and give it another go.

I just don't know if he can do that, or if he will. I will - and I can, but everybody's different. Like you said - for some once it's over, it's over. I'm not like that. I don't think he is too - given that he's taken all kinds of hurt from his GF who moved away from him and he's still continuing that R in one form or another... so time will tell.

I don't know if what he feels for me is stronger than what he feels for her. We've got 20+ years of history, a marriage that we had, and 2 children. Time will tell if that's stronger than what they have together. In my eyes the GF doesn't hold a candle to what he could have again with his family - but love isn't always logical.

JinGA

Seabird,
I appreciate your seeking my advise. It's amusing because I have been royally chewed out by lots of people on this board for being so thick as to think that I could change my husband.

I skimmed your story. The whole basis of our marriage was unconditional love. That meant he expected that I would tolerate anything he did. I tolerated a broken arm. I did not tolerate an affair.

After the affair, I tried for five years to change him. I gave up.

What we have done since the end of March is give each other one positive and one negative for the day of the other person's behavior and agree to make one change per month that we would try to make a habit that would be something that would increase the positive or decrease the negative for our spouse. It's baby steps.

I'm a firm believer in what John Paul II has said: "We become what we do." I think people can change by what they do. Yes, there still will be traits like intelligence, drive, etc. that cannot change, but you can change your habits to meet the needs of your spouse.

I am realizing that intimate conversaton is a big deal for me and a lot of my conversation with my husband is very negative for me. For example, he's on a business trip today. He called this morning. This was today's negative: "You're an adult. You figure it out." I found that to be negative. A lot of what he says I find to be negative. I am trying to describe what is negative. He seems to be making effort. For example, I brought up I didn't like his saying "Quit monkeying around" to the kids. I overheard him saying "Please stop monkeying around." Apparently, I didn't describe well enough that what I don't like is pictures that are unflattering (monkeying around) rather than a description of the behavior, but I do see effort. That's what matters.

Harley's whole program is about making changes to accomodate the needs of the spouse. It's just a guess, but I think you may want to consider that you neglected your wife to the point she just had had it. People who believe in unconditional love can come to believe that it doesn't matter what I do -- I should be loved for "who I am". Well, I tried to love him for who he was -- and I tolerated not only neglect but also abuse. It was only infidelity that woke me up.

See my story "Marriage Builders Lite". If your wife is still speaking with you or has any ties whatsoever to you, you could work on increasing the positives and decreasing the negatives. What I told my husband is that I am willing to stay if our marriage improves, however infitesimally, from month to month.

Cherished

Without being specific, damage was in the sense of neglect, emotional abuse, financial recklessness and as our divorce decree stated, "irreconcilable differences."

The sense of finality for me, arrived in a single sentence. My now XW stated to me, "You can't afford to divorce me!" Of course, knowing her, she was thinking in the financial sense and not seeing the big picture. My reply required no thought at that point. I replied back, "I can't afford not to." At that point, I felt nothing for that person.


Actually, my XW, and yes, we do. As I posted earlier, we have joint custody of our DD and actually co-parent in a civil manner despite our differences.


Always, always trying to develop a better understanding. I take full responsibility for my part in the debacle. I am currently in a healthy relationship and do not want it to take the same course years down the road. I also know that the person that I am with now, perceives me in an entirely different way. So, what worked or didn't work before may be irrelevant now. It's a complete do-over. I believe that I have eliminated destructive behaviors and try to practice attractive behaviors.

I feel that I am a safe and trusting man but, more importantly, my Girl feels that I am a safe and trusting man. I want her feeling that way always.

That's exactly what I am trying to do with my XH. Baby steps. I've become more aware of the good things that I was able to do to fill his EN, and I'm focusing on those.

Today we only saw each other for about 20 minutes or so, and we had a customer in the store, but the 3 of us (he, customer and I) talked and joked and laughed. He was off to another customer's home so the time was brief.

He's started initiating email exchanges too - just business stuff for the most part, but we interject a bit of humour too.

Again - baby steps...

Moving at a snail's pace... but moving forward nonetheless.

JinGA

Thanks for the follow up ba. I mistakenly assumed you were a F. My apologies.

Seabird,

I do agree with this. You win whether you change her mind or not because you end up being a better person. But, if you don't change her mind and then go back to your old self...then it wasn't sincere in the first place.

I don't disagree with that. Two years ago, I failed to grasp this notion. Not that I had any intent to backslide into old behaviors or anything. Indeed, my W confirmed to me that I hadn't. I failed to understand and process the cause of those behaviors and over the next two years, I manifested new ones that were perhaps subtler, but just as damaging.

As hard as it is to admit, I can empathize with my W's skepticism now. I hope that she begins to gain the same kind of understanding for her behaviors as well. If she can start to recognize her part in this, it might make her a little more forgiving.

I think that's why we don't like when people change "for us." Automatically, we know it isn't a real change. It's just to keep us from flying the coop.

Becomign the person you want to be, and it happening to mesh with what your spouse wants you to be, now that's the real deal.

Agreed. Change has to come from within, not without. We have to make changes FOR OURSELVES, not for someone else, for them to stick. Otherwise it's just "best behavior" and the flaws creep through again later on when we're more relaxed.

A few years ago, the character "Abby" from ER said it best <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> She was observing some co-workers flirting with each other and as she walked by she said,

"They're always on their best behavior at first, but the next thing you know, they're farting in your kitchen!"

I love that line!

JinGA

JinGA,

Sorry to have ignored this for so long.

I am not sure where you read that I have given you credit for anything as this is my first post to you. It is not my place to 'give you credit'. Credit might come from the people who your behaviors directly affect. That would not be me.

No worries. Perhaps I read you wrong, BA. From what you said to me it appeared that you'd accepted what I've described about how I've changed myself, versus Seabird whom you appear to question.

I may have misconstrued, and if so, I do apologize.

Good discussion nonetheless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

I think major change is possible, but only with God's help. I've been trying and trying to change some of my own habits - and perhaps personality traits. It's very hard. As they say it takes 1-2 months to form a "habit" even, little habits I've been trying to change - eating better, being more organized, trying to stay more positive (negative thinking's a very bad habit). Sure the basic "essence" of my personality is still THERE every day. But I am so much more self controlled then I was two years ago when I left my ex. Would anyone else really notice the changes? I don't know... but it's "baby steps..." one step at a time in the right direction. Sure there's no miracle - even religious people talk of being born again, washed clean, etc - but even if there is such an event they are 'baby Christians" and have to really grow on a daily basis. I've read 100s of psychology books, been to over a dozen shrinks in the past six years - and the ONLY thing that's worked for me to make even minor changes - is with God's help. Slowly old habits are dying. Slowly I'm learning to be more grateful, less selfish. Slowly I'm realizing that so many problems in my life - even my marriage are consequences from my own behavior - that I can't just point the finger and blame my ex, I chose him after all. We all have good traits and bad. All we can do is try to improve - but the big turnarounds - they are with help from above. I'm a believer in the human race, in looking for the good and not the bad in others. I think most marriages are of opposites - people are attracted to what they don't have, their shadows, even if they are in the form of what are considered "bad traits" in others. Some marriage books say 80%+ of marriages are of opposites - slobs and nit pickers destined to drive each other completely insane is the most typical scenerio. We can choose to bring out the best or worst in one another. Those who make it in the long run - the old married farts, they both grow, become more alike, meet in the middle, learn to compromise... somehow marriage is intended by God to make us crazy, and if it weren't for the craziness we wouldn't grow and learn. Even if we divorce, we learn, but it's those who somehow make it through this jungle, that survive and somehow figure out the mysterious compromise in the middle - in this modern insane world - those are hardy people.

Did you happen to check out missmellie's thread on EN about refusal of Love Bank deposits?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3258875

She may currently be at this "point of no return." Perhaps you could pick her brain a bit.

I didn't read it ba, but I will. Thanks.

I actually got to talk to my sister a bit about this. She was the person who provoked the question in my mind. When she made the decision to D her H, there were several motivating factors:

1) He's pretty much an a-hole anyway.
2) She was active duty Navy with orders to go to the Azores. He steadfastly refused to go with her and their DD.
3) He thought she was crazy for even asking him to consider it.

During our first conversation, she told me that she was frustrated because he wouldn't acknowledge just how important she and their DD were to him. This suggested to me that he had an opportunity to show some change. Then, after she was all packed up, and getting ready to go he said to her, "I really would have gone with you, you know."

That pissed her off more than anything else. Her response, "You're telling me this NOW????". Anyway, that was the exchange that provoked my question here.

Yesterday, I finally had a chance to talk with her a bit more. I told her about this place and this thread. I asked her the same thing; If he had shown real, demonstrable and provable change over long period of time, would she have considered reconciliation.

She shocked me when she said "Yes" without ANY hesitation. Now, he never did change. I can't imagine that he ever will. That's not the point of the question though. I am more interested in the state of the mind of the person wanting the D, than of the person fighting for the M (or not fighting as the case may be). I already know what I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL!

Anyway, thanks again for the link. I will check it out.

Gekko-
You sound like my husband where my husband is now.
Even though I dispute some of the issues. I never tried to make him feel less of a man or a father. I never tried to take away his family or friends- I just wanted more time for us. That being said- if your ex had said- I see your point and I am willing to work on those issues and try and work on our marriage and tried to show you those changes would you still have gotten the divorce?