You bet, MrW.


But, sir, and very respectfully...isn't that a statement that can also be made to each and every WS that comes here?

Noodle,

What matters to me is my husband's perspective, not the reality of Johnny Cash's second marriage.

I think his views are what got him into an affair in the first place -- what matters is not your commitment to care for your spouse; what matters is the feeling of love and care that you might develop for someone, regardless of whether you have made a vow to "forsake all others", regardless of the impact of your affair on your wife or her husband.

People who get into affair marriages run the risk of spouses having feelings of love and care for others, feeling justified in having an affair just like they did the last time, and so it's on to the next one. That's why stories from affair marraiges can be a sobering reminder to us BSs of the importance of commitment in marriage, even if it involves recovery from an affair with a spouse who is remorseful and now chooses to be committed to you.

There's a little boy in my daughter's second grade class whose mother had an affair and divorced her husband. The father accepted the divorce gracefully, has a cordial relationship with his ex-wife, went on to marry another woman with a child by her first husband, and now the father of this little boy and his new wife have a baby together. That little boy in my daughter's class is now passed between his mother, who is still in a relationship with her lover, and his father, who is now occupied with a wife, a stepdaughter, and a new baby.

I had hoped that the father and mother would remarry at some point because that little boy is special -- a bundle of energy and very, very bright. I wonder if that would have been possible had the father waited, since the mother told me that her lover is wanting to live together before marriage and she doesn't want that. Her affair doesn't seem to be working out too well for her.

I saw that little 2nd grade boy once when I was picking up my children after school. Someone -- mother or father -- forgot to pick him up. It seemed routine. This had happened before.

The biggest consequences of affair marriages and remarriages are for children. It's why I'm still trying. It's why I won't ever remarry, no matter what my husband does.

It's time for me to go play a game of Uno.

Cherished

Not Mr. W but I'll chime in with my .02.

In terms of actual results? No.

In fact the AM threads did result in emboldened WS's and OPs and other AMs.

A stalking OP was in fact successfull in breaching NC and the pair moved in together.

When asking a FORMER WS [very former in fact] this person replied that AS a person in the fog their reaction would have been to pursue that dream of being in the lucky nil percent.

They actually said that if they had seen AMs supported here when they arrived befogged it would have fed their addiction by suggesting that it might work out.

People saying that affairs were destructive would have lost cred for them.

Several completely unremorsefull AMs crawled out of the woodwork and off of TOW to huddle around the fire of validation.

Well Longhorn. You'll make your decision and you'll live with the results like everyone else.

Cherished,

I agree with you that children may as well be called "leftovers" when this situation happens.

Honestly it'd be kinder to abandon them in truth than to try and pretend you haven't abandoned them by applying minimal care starkly contrasted with your REAL families portion.

It'd be KINDER to take them out back and shoot them than to drag them through this and demand they smile so you can feel better about yourself and your selfish immature choices.

Your H's attitudes would have me in anus clenching anxiety and one eyelid twitch away from insanity if I had to live with it day in and day out.

Yes, Noodle. I shall indeed live with my choices, but I'll be taking my cue from Dr. Harley. He's been right with everything else dealing with matters of infidelity. I think I'll trust him on this matter also.

LH,

You do realise that this is a moral/ethics issue and NOT something that Dr Harley has volunteered to accept responsibility for...right?

He's a marriage coach not a guru.

I guess I should have added #7 to my list: "Do not expect anyone on the MB boards to help you with or be supportive of your Plan A or your Plan B."

I only listed what I did because those are things anyone can do on their own, so sure, someone is an Affair Marriage is free to try them, too - even though there is practically zero chance it will work for them. Just a bit of "Well, this is what everyone else does, so feel free to try it yourself since you're here at MB and asking what to do."

It seemed slightly less rude than "go jump in the lake". And it's not that those in an Arriage deserve such courtesy, just more that I prefer not to be rude myself unless it's purely intentional. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's nothing anyone couldn't figure out by reading through the site for a bit, so I guess I thought I was stating the obvious.

Sorry I neglected #7.
Mulan

Yes, I do understand the issues, Noodle. For morality and ethics, I rely on the word of God as expressed in the Bible. I hope you don’t disagree with that. Frankly, that God forgave David of his adultery when David lusted after Bathsheba and had her husband killed, tells me I should also be forgiving of the imperfect human beings around me. If I do not keep charity in my heart...if I deny the words of God and will not forgive, am I not placing my judgment above that of my God? Similarly, I think I must also understand the lesson Jesus taught us when He saved the prostitute from the angry crowd in the village, refusing to condemn her.

But I don't understand your other point. I agree, Dr. Harley has not, to my knowledge, commented on, nor taken any responsibility whatsoever for MFZ. Why does that preclude me from validating my position from his action and opinions with Jilly, for instance?

Longhorn Hunny,

you read my intent incorrectly if you read it to cast suspicions concerning your support of Harley's methods

I AM taking ownership of MY elitism

I am not mocking anyone but myself

MY elitism DOES exist

I had not thought to put it in writing until you came up with that idea

I am not advising anyone to adopt my personal bias list as their own

I am simply, and truely, owning mine

What exactly is the aim of this discussion? To establish some kind of group ethic with regard to giving advice where marriages were conceived in adultery? Or to protect the 'vulnerable' from any sense that such marriages are in some way condoned by MB?

If it's about protecting the vulnerable, well, frankly...how? There's nothing to stop anyone on the planet from posting wherever they like here on MB. Even if we petition for, and get, some kind of 'Cheater Cheated' board, there's no onus on a cheated cheater to post on that board. The post may well appear on GQII, the raw newbie will read, and be triggered...before anyone can get to the 'report post' link and alert a moderator.

Establishing a group ethic is equally hopeless. We're not a group, we're a collection of individuals free to post as we please, and the only real restriction on us is that we adhere to MB principles...and often not even that. Even if every poster on this thread decided not to post to AM supplicants, that would not reduce the post count to 0 on AM threads. There will always be new arrivals who don't know the unwritten law (because there is little advice re. affair marriages in the MB literature), and who will post anyway.

The population of this board changes all the time - most of the people posting when I joined are no longer here. The only static fixed point are the Harley articles and the books. If these don't specifically discuss affair marriages, then there is little chance that the posting population in two years time (when most of you will not be posting, from my experience), will have any idea what was discussed today. (There have been some superb, rational, intelligent discussions in the past, which few today will have read - because it was before their time, on the old board, and probably before the Dustkitty incident that robbed the board of some of its wisest posters.)

It seems to me that the best each of us could do is to develop our own individual boundary vis-a-vis our unique triggering situations on this board - and frankly there are several which are much more difficult for me than a-marriages - and stick to it. Expressing our own view and being willing to discuss it is beneficial to all. Fighting to alter/enforce the boundaries of a shifting population seems to me like getting a swarm of bees to sign a contract. That is, hopeless.

TA

You have not lost any articulacy, Bob. And you have laid out your position clearly. It might surprise you to know that in MOST situations of this sort, I would be in agreement with you. It is ONLY when the particulars of a given situation are considered in total that I choose on rare occasions to "make an exception." It is in THAT context that I reject the dogmatic statement "once a sinner, always a sinner."

I fully understand that many, perhaps even most (though I really don't know the statistical breakdown), are not Christians, and that even within the Christian brotherhood there can be disagreement (sort of like when the disciples complained to Jesus about others who were "evangelising" in Jesus' name but who were not "the apostles"). Jesus told them to let them "do their thing" and not to stomp on them.

The fact is that there have been very few members who are in an affair marriage (or at least who have admitted to it in open honesty to the forum), and there has been only one that felt I could, or should, attempt to provide some help. This is not, despite the fears of some, an "everyday occurrance."

I understand fully what you have been saying, and I hope that I have been equally clear in my "objection" to a blanket banishment of all regardless of any reasons. Each individual is just that, an individual.

I also understand that for some, NO amount of repentance short of divorcing their current spouse would suffice. Obviously, since I do view things from a Christian perspective, no sin, including an affair marriage (a subset of adultery), is forgiven by God and there is no "new creation in Christ" for unbelievers. There is no repentance to God for any sin, including adultery, without accepting the only way that God has provide whereby ALL sins are forgiven.

I also understand that there are others on the system who would have no problem helping someone who is NOT a Christian, but I personally have a difficulty with that since I believe so strongly in the need for forgiveness in response to repentance. In those cases, I choose to let them provide whatever help they think they can provide and I "stay out of it."

It would be good to also have an answer the question that I have posed several times about whether or not someone "should be" helped who is experiencing infidelity in their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. marriage, especially when they divorced their 1st spouse for any reason other than adultery. If someone is divorced, NOT for reasons of adultery, then they are still "married" to their 1st spouse, as long as that ex-spouse is living, imho. At what point does someone who is NOT in their 1st marriage become "eligible" for assistance? Anyone that such a person married is an "affair partner" if the "yardstick" is a nonbiblical reason for divorcing the 1st spouse, regardless of the civil "legality" of the divorce.

At what point does a person have the humanitarian right to seek assistance for their current situation, understanding that the past cannot be "undone" and that the first spouse is not interested in any sort of reconcilition? Strictly speaking from a biblical standpoint, second marriages are problematic on many levels, but then again, so is a "nefarious past" of many kinds.

Where does a second marriage, even to an "affair partner," that HAS survived and that has attempted to not repeat the mistake of the past, "fit" into the humanitarian need to assist someone? Yes, there IS an "impersonal attribute" of such a marriage as you stated. Yes, some people can be bothered or hurt during the time when they are "raw" emotionally. By the same token, they can see the "impersonal attribute" that also attends affair marriages, that problems and consequences of sin DO continue as "baggage" of poor past choices.

I guess the ultimate question would be "is anyone beyond redemption?" For some the answer, I believe, is yes. For others, the answer is no. God is in the "redeeming business" and when HE does so, He works a miracle in the hearts and souls of the redeemed. He creates a "new creation, behold the old has gone, the new has come." But the one who really decides if someone is "beyond redemption" is God. For the rest of us, God tells us that we are supposed to treat others as Jesus would. And Jesus went out of His way to talk to an "untouchable," and worse yet, an "untouchable woman." Through THAT person, who the others Jews would not be in the same room with, much less speak to, MANY others believed in Christ and were saved.

So I DO think that faith in Christ IS a vital component of repentance, forgiveness of ALL sins, for reconciliation and restoration. It is not a "hammer," and it is evaluated on a "case by case" basis. Again, I understand the objections and the sincerity of your feelings on this subject. I also understand that many are "offended" by Christ, especially those to whom God is NOT the God of Christianity. But we don't, or shouldn't, try to limit others to what we "feel" emotionally doesn't offend us and try to banish the rest, or consign them to some dark and dreary corner so dusty no one is likely to find them there.

Again, sincere differences of opinion, but it isn't the first "subject" to have stress and tension from those different opinions "colliding" in a public forum.

God bless.

[b]I think this is a very good discussion .... about the chance that this board might become the next step for some infidel graduates from some affair-support board .... who then *pop* over to MB to learn how to hold their marriage together

how to erase the consequences they might face because of the tainted birth of their union

spitting on other people's marriage, and then using MB to spiff up their own

the disrespect for the institution of marriage is not attractive to me

Well, won't the moderators police that? When trolls violate the TOS, don't moderators take action to turn them away?

Longhorn, are you asking me that question?

Yes, ma'am

Police what ? Affair marriages bouncing from an affair-supportive board to a marriage-supportive board if they do marry their adultery partner???

How could that ever be policed?

Well, if they say nothing, no one will ever know. There are probably a number of such folks on the board right now. But if they come here acting like cross posters from TOW, they're going to expose themselves, right?

Right!

K, then won't the board still be protected from the ones you object to?

DustKitty???? What the heck was Dustkitty?

Larry