There is a vast difference between an act of vengeance and choosing not to support someone's actions and choices.



It is my understanding that, biblically, if someone commits adultery, the BS becomes free from the contract of marriage. It does not say that the WS is free from the contract.

I am unclear as to why you view this as "punishment". I see it as a matter of consequence, rather than punishment.



What is it exactly that feels like retribution and revenge? Does distancing yourself from evil or morally wrong behavior equal retribution? I don't think that's the motive here...to condemn any specific person. It seems to me to be much more about speaking out against and not supporting their choice.

The Bible says:

"If you brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church, and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

I don't believe we are commanded to do this as an act of punishment for the sinner, but as a means to avoid enabling sin, thereby binding sin.


While it IS Christ-like to forgive, I haven't read anything that says that it is Christ-like to RECONCILE or befriend someone who is un-willing to change their course.

Many people have a problem determining the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. They fail to deal with external resistance because they feel they have to give in to the other person or they are not being forgiving.

This is from a book that I read:

The Bible is clear about two principles: (1) We always need to forgive, but (2) we don't always achieve reconciliation. Forgiveness is something that we do in our hearts. Only one party is needed for forgiveness.

But, we do not always achieve reconciliation. God forgave the world, but the whole world is not reconciled to him. Although he may have forgiven all people, all people have not owned their sin and appropriated his forgiveness. That would be reconciliaton. Forgiveness takes one; reconciliation takes two.

We do not open ourselves up to a party until we have seen that they have truly owned their part of the problem. True repentance is much more than saying "I'm sorry"; it is changing direction.

God is your model. He did not wait for people to change their behavior before he stopped condemning them. He is finished condemning, but that does not mean that he has a relationship with all people. People must choose to own up to their sin and repent, then God will open himself up to them.



This is what I have found on the topic.


Matthew 5:32:
32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery.

Lady, allow me to move your question into a slightly different context for just a second, okay? Isn't helping two individuals at one time exactly the challenge a couples counselor faces all the time when counseling a couple...one a betrayed spouse and the other a wayward spouse? Doesn't he or she always have the chore of bringing two divergent, often hostile, points of view together? I bring that up simply to point out one counselor can work both sides of an issue.

I would be willing to help both you and your WH if you both came to me at the same time (but separately, of course) asking for such help, but I seriously doubt any such thing would ever happen. The logistics of helping both at the same time would probably be insurmountable and I’m not even sure it would be ethical for a professional counselor to attempt. I’ll try to find out. If either one of such two individuals objected to the other being advised by me, it would prohibit me from doing any such thing.

This whole idea was a hypothetical situation posed to me where I was supposed to make a judgment that one human being was more worthy than another. I was to pick one over the other.

I only answered the question for the purposes of further illustrating that I don’t believe God makes that distinction. We’re all sinners to be redeemed in His sight. The point I wanted to make was to express my willingness to help two human beings sincerely in pain and the wayward one demonstrating genuine remorse. That’s all. If I wasn’t very adept at saying that, I apologize.

Good to see you again, Lady. Don’t be a stranger, okay? We need you here on MB.

Froz, I have to go get something to eat while I digest your post. Forgive me for not answering immediately, okay?


********

Okay, I'm back. Much of what you wrote was an opinion that it’s not punishment to demand a wayward spouse can’t ever have a legitimate marriage. When you say the BS is divorced after ending a marriage because of infidelity, but the WS isn’t…that doesn’t leave much room for redemption or anything else. I just don’t understand your point in that. Are you suggesting a wayward spouse lives in some kind of limbo the rest of his or her life? I admit, you have me confused there. Perhaps you could explain.

With respect to reconciliation, you’re referring to redemption with God? Again, I’m not sure what you mean. I understand there are those who never repent their sins and are not forgiven, but Zog has shown remorse for his actions. He gave his wife everything he had as an apology, and he’s checked in on her from time to time to make sure she’s okay.

Since his divorce from her, Zog has learned from his sin and he’s turned his life around. He has lived a respectful life for the past 28 years, forsaking all others, and remaining true to his new wife. His wife remained true for 22 of those years before succumbing and that’s a pretty good record, if you ask me. Mine sure didn't last that long before my wife was unfaithful. Froz, how many marriages of the folks here on MB lasted 22 years with no infidelity? And all those other marriages presumably began under far more favorable conditions, right?

Now, Froz, I’m not thrilled about the way Zog’s first marriage died either. I condemn infidelity wherever I find it. You know I do, lady. You’ve seen me work with betrayed spouses, attempting to help them recover from what I consider an obscenity. But I’m not omnipotent, and neither is Zog. I can’t go back in time and fix everything for the betrayed spouse I’m working with before the obscenity intrudes and Zog can’t go back 30 years to straighten himself out either. If you didn’t see his post on the subject, he has expressed a regret MarriageBuilders.com didn’t exist back then or he might have been able to learn about addictions and how NC was supposed to be.

Your reference to Matthew 5 is of major interest to me, and I’m not a good enough scholar to figure out why that passage exists, but I’ll see if I can work my way through it. For the final word, I’ll have to ask the Chaplain on the post where I attend services but I don’t know when I’ll have an answer for you. He was going on TAD this week and I’m not sure when he’ll be back.

In the meantime, if you look at 2 Samuel 11, I think you’ll find exactly the opposite story.

Here, the King David commits adultery with Bathsheba, actually has her husband killed, takes her against her will, and eventually marries her but only after getting her pregnant first. David is confronted by the teacher Nathan who gives David a message from God to the effect that David’s attempt to cover up his sins, and mortal crimes never had any success…that God has known all along and is angry about it.

David confesses and leaves his punishment up to God. He understands the normal punishment for his sins is death and he’s ready for that. He goes to sleep expecting to die in the night.

Here is Psalm 51, David’s prayer of repentance:

Psalm 51
1 Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your loving kindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.

In the morning, he wakes and Nathan tells him the Lord has taken away his sin. That doesn’t mean there weren’t any consequences. In fact, a few years later, David and Bathsheba’s baby dies, but better men than I haven’t been able to discern the lesson in that. I don’t know what it means.

On the other hand, David formally marries Bathsheba and God blesses them with a second child, another son. That child’s name, Froz, was Solomon. Nathan told Solomon God named Solomon “Jedidiah,” which means “Beloved of God.” Solomon became King of Israel when his father died and ruled so fairly and wisely, we still remember him as one of the wisest men to ever live. If you look at the genealogies in the New Testament, his name is listed in the direct bloodline of Jesus Christ, our Savior. Truly, God blessed David and Bathsheba’s marriage.

Yet…Solomon was born of a marriage that we can interpret as being invalid on many levels. David and Bathsheba’s first son was born of rape and their union was possible only because David had her husband killed.

David was guilty of any number of sins, but because he confessed them and was repentant, God took his sins away and blessed David and Bathsheba’s marriage with a son the world still reveres for his wisdom. Though David committed sins for which today’s secular world would punish with his own death, God saved him, forgave him, and gave him a marvelous gift, a wonderful son whose name will never be forgotten.

So, where does this all lead? I’m not sure. 2 Samuel is a story of horrible sins, condemnation by God, confession and repentance…but then immediate salvation and forgiveness by the Lord. Since Matthew 5 is essentially a terse and, to me largely unexplained list of laws, I think 2 Samuel is saying that even though you transgress, you can be forgiven your sin and then even raised above other men. Does that make sense?

Then, Froz, I’m left with only this. If God can forgive a man of murder (which must have devastated Uriah’s whole family), raped and made an adulteress of Uriah’s wife Bathsheba (whose family was also confounded, I’m sure), then I think I can find it in my heart to forgive Zog. Froz, in light of God’s Grace where he forgave David when David confessed to murder, adultery, and a myriad of other sins, but was then contrite, how can I not forgive Zog when he too has confessed, made the atonement he could, and is remorseful. Beyond that, Froz, please note that Zog told us right up front of his sin against his first marriage. As David said in the third verse in Psalm 51, Zog’s sin is always before him and he does not deny his guilt.

Froz, if I do anything else but forgive my fellow human beings, am I not denying God’s will? If God will forgive even those foul sins David committed against man and God, am I not setting myself above my Lord if I withhold it from others? This troubles me, Froz. If I were to ignore Zog in his time of need, I feel like I would be rebelling against the teachings of my God. Froz, I can’t do that.

It’s good talking with you, lady. I love discussions with reasonable people.

No problem. A man's gotta EAT!

Well...

I'm not going 2 get Bibley here, not that there's anything wrong with getting Bibley or Jesusy.

Speaking from my own experience, though:

My W and I are still married, and her A lasted 12 years or so, and our M is not yet "recovered".

But I sure think I am. And I can see someday she will be.

But what if she'd left me 2 marry Rat Meat? And what if she were subjected 2 infidelity again in that M (odds are, she would be, if they got married that is).

2 the extent that such meanderings are at all useful, this is what I would like 2 think that I'd do:

*I'd like 2 see her, or even him, get support* They'd clearly need some support. Hopefully support that would help them better themselves so that they wouldn't mess up any more marriages or families.

What do I mean by "support", though? I have a strong personal aversion 2 affairiages (I think they're morally grody), and so my first reaction is 2 say that I would not want the support 2 entail, at least directly, saving the affairiage.

So what do I mean by "support"? Like any kind of real support, I think I mean support of the individual in getting back on their feet, ridding their emotional baggage of dirty emotional underwear, and learning 2 do what they KNOW is right, not even just what they think is right. Integrity-building stuff. Consequence-facing stuff. Amends-making stuff.

And anybody could use a little "real" individual support, even ol' 2long. Even FOPs or affairspouses in 2rmoil.

I believe in consequences, 2. I also believe that acting in a loving manner, does not mean cow towing 2 poor choices, but 2 helping people see what the right thing 2 do might be, rather than the seemingly happy-making thing might appear 2 be. In some cases where an unrepentent OP comes here with malicious intent or justification (like H2Y's xW lucidity's OM did a few years ago), the loving, supportive thing 2 do might need 2 be so harsh as 2 send them away.

And who knows? Maybe an affairiage will recover as a result of the individuals growing as individuals. I think it less likely than in the case of a marriage recovering after infidelity, but it seems possible. But the key is recovering individuals first, then relationships if they can/should recover.

If my W were 2 want 2 marry RM at this point in time - 17 years after the A started, that'd mean that the A lasted more than half our "marriage". And in my current state of personal recovery, if she wanted that then so would I. And I'd sure hope that if she needed advice about subsequent infidelity, that my good friends here would help her - even RM if he came here - by helping the individuals and please not suggest she come back 2 me because it's Bibley or Jesusy 2 do so. I wouldn't want her back at that point. Life is short, and it's not getting any longer. And I still love her. I really just don't need 2 risk going through something similar again.

I didn't use 2 feel this way, though. And so I can understand why a new BS might have a hard time with someone coming here from a broken affairiage looking for help with fixing it.

But now I think I have always had a responsibility that I wouldn't have wanted 2 face within a year or 2 of d-day. And that was 2 detach with love, jettison the drama, choose not 2 be a victim of my FWW's selfish choices, and clear my own BS fog. And enjoy life. Stuff is good if you allow it 2 be so.

-ol' 2long

No sheet, LC! It would feel like betrayal X a bazillion.

LH,

This is a pointless battle. As you and I know intelligent people may disagree with each other on some important values and beliefs. As you and I know we should allow people the space to disagree with us when warranted. Allow those who disagree with us here to do so. This debate has degenerated into an acrimonious and acerbic one. One of the most important lessons in life is to learn when to pick your battles and to understand that not all battles are worth winning. This one is definitely not worth it.

Help when you can and/or when you feel like it, and allow others to do the same. There is no need to try to change others’ opinions or to defend your position here. No one is going to change their minds. And to belabor this discussion anymore is an exercise in futility. The sooner you retract from this debate, the sooner it will cease. If others want to continue let them be, just let them be.

Live and let live.

Well, LH, I wouldn't call that a "slightly different context". It's more like apples and oranges.

When a couple goes to a counselor, it is usually for the purpose of reconciling their differences to rebuild their relationship.

What I am talking about is a totally different thing, involving THREE people...not two...and one of those three people, the affair partner-now spouse, is an interloper.

If my H had divorced me to marry the OW, there would be nothing to reconcile, as I would have nothing further to do with him. I might forgive him, but I would NEVER be "friends" with him. However, I would likely have been in severe pain for quite a while. There is NO WAY I could remain friendly with someone who purported to be trying to support me in my pain while, at the same time, was advising my XWH and/or his wistress on how to save their affair marriage.

In fact, I would say that a friend to ME would stay out of my XWH's marital crap and let it implode all by itself, on the off chance that my XWH might pull his head out of his nether regions and wish to return to his original LEGITIMATE marrriage.

A friend to my WHS who wants to help him save his affair marriage should leave ME the heck alone, cuz with friends like that, I wouldn't need enemies.

very well said LC. Very well said indeed.

UVA, thanks very much. I understand. The discussion is actually settled. JustUss's opinion 1, lots of people against...JustUss takes the prize. She wins…or rather…Zog wins.

My purpose in starting this thread isn't to increase the acrimony. I started it to find those still not in recovery who might be hurting at the mention of "Affair Marriages" and get them some help. As of this moment, I still haven't found any, but I'll keep the thread right at the top of the list for a while to make sure there aren't any here. No one else was volunteering to be there for those folks and I'd hate for anyone needing help to be ignored.

I understand your concern is that the board needs to begin healing and I appreciate that too. I'll let this thread die the second its purpose has been completed.

Good to hear from you. Long time, no see until just recently. Don't be a stranger, okay?

LH:

I also believe it is time to let the matter drop.

Simply because when the next poster comes around, like always, individually we can decide to help or not.

I liked this line in AMP's post:

"support for and justification of arriages becomes some sort of norm here I will probably leave."

One of my points.

The JJBA thread hung around for a while, but that was the only arraige thread I knew about since I started posting heavily in Aug/Sep of 2006. If there were others, I am not aware of them, and I do not wish to be reminded, just the same.

Zog was the most recent.

THE debate threads override the actual posters that do show up.

A new BS on here today, is getting blasted because he was 24 and his Future WW was only 15 when they met 11 years ago..

That's very troubling to me. And other Long Time MB'ers pointed out the difference in ages and in very blunt language.

He may address these concerns in a satisifactory manner, and may get the help he needs. But if he doesn't address those concerns, his thread will die.

But this site is not overrun with threads on arraiges.

DO not think it ever will.

However, it's your thread. I read the first couple of pages intently, but not the last half. If you want it to continue, that's ok.

Personally. I would just like all these arraige threads to drop off the radar screen.

JMVHO

LG

The last time I checked, it was illegal (and immoral) for an adult to engage in a relationship with a child.

I find it odd that you consider it blunt language to call someone, who by HIS OWN admission committed a crime so apalling. That it happened 11 years ago...that is your justification for defending such a crime???

I am troubled that you find it troubling to point this out. It seems far more troubling to me that it actually happened.

Your sympathy is with the perpetrator of this crime?

Froz:

Go back over to that thread, I expanded my comments.

If he is what you claim, then he shouldn't be here.

Just because someone met someone else at a younger age, does not make them a pedophile.

And in his last post, he said that he had a marriage certificate, and approval of both sets of parents.

But....

He never stated when he met her, what he was doing when he met her, how the relationship developed, when her parents knew, and the other details that would allow me to make an INFORMED decision. The scant detail present now do not allow for an INFORMED decision.

And I am beginning to doubt that I would like the answers anyhow....

Froz: I just do not jump to: "This poster is a (fill in the blank) and then tell the poster that they are what I perceive them to be based upon that."

And please note my next line after the two you quoted:

"He may address these concerns in a satisifactory manner, and may get the help he needs. But if he doesn't address those concerns, his thread will die."

OK?

LG

I am not jumping to a conclusion.

If someone tells me they began pursuing a relationship with someone who was 15 when he was an adult, I am basing my assertion on only the facts he provided...no assumption there.



It's inappropriate. At the very least it makes him a predator. Was he there to visit her parents and just happened to come across her?

He said that he had an online relationship with her and that he came to visit HER and slept on her parent's couch.



Yes. I noticed that he only seems to address the circumstances that ocurred AFTER her 18th birthday.

LG (and UVA), you are probably right.

I think if others will concur the issue is concluded, that JustUss's decision is final, then the purpose of this thread is also finished.

I began it to search out hurting newly betrayed spouses who were despondent because the very idea of a betrayed spouse in an “Affair Marriage” could use MB principles to recover that marriage.

Not one single spouse who is not yet in recovery has come to me and no one has spoken of such a despondent spouse coming to him or her. I think it’s logical to conclude that, while the concern of many on MB in that area was legitimate, the fact is people are able to take it in stride. I thought they are all tougher than many give them credit for. I believe my faith in them has been justified.

If anyone finds a betrayed spouse, newly arrived and grieving because Zog is here, please comfort the newly betrayed one or send him or her to me. I’ll be here for them until all hours of the night, as you can see from the time stamp on this post.

I agree. I think it’s time this and all the other discussion threads on this subject dropped to the bottom and faded into the archives.

You started it Longhorn because you were grandstanding. 3 threads already discussing this topic was too few for you.

The saddest thing is,Longhorn I think you GENUINELY BELIEVE your corrupted perception of reality. You do not see how you are gaslighting to avoid coming off the fence.

You really think your are taking a decent stand against the nasty Englishman and his bully friends and that if only everyone would lend a hand just like we did back in the fifties, everything would be jus' DANDY. No need to take a stand for right, EVERYTHINGS right where there's no argument !

A strangers just a friend you ain't met yet, and Ike Godsey's wife was the nastiest person in your world, until I came along with ma new fangled city ways, taking the BS sides in affair marriages an' all.

You're a relic LH.

I wish I could live in your world, but it is long gone , sadly.
Conflict exists, affair marriages are bad and hurtful and helping them DOES hurt BS.

G'night Jim-Bob

This is kind of OT but Longhorn, if you remember correctly because I certainly remember it all and very vividly, when I lapsed last year you were one of the most vociferous people about how evil I was. People were quite rightly very disappointed with me and it took a real friend (the alter ego of a poster here) to really show me the light and I'll always be grateful to him.

I sort of don't get the "new, improved Longhorn". It's as if you've had a real sea change. I find it hard to reconcile this Longhorn with the one who wanted me banned forever from the board.

A person getting nailed because they RAPE someone is troubling to you LG(ANYONE OF HIS AGE HAVING SEX WITH A 15 YEAR OLD IS RAPE!). You are being ridiculous! It does not matter if there is parental approval or not... IT IS RAPE . In fact the parents would be guilty of a felony if they approved this "relationship."

well stated