Both Leo and Sonya kept diaries throughout their marriage. Women could leave men, but what kept them in unendurable marriages was the belif that you must keep your marriage vows. In fact, one daughter in law of the Tolstoys left their son after a year of marriage. But why didn't Sonya leave Leo? It was religious belief rather tahn practical necessity that kept her there. Leo wrote a story about how evil it is to have intercourse because then women dominate due to men's incontinece. Meanwhile, Sonya is embarassed because she is pregnant. He humiliated her, and yet she stayed. But she did become hysterical, she did have dramatic shows of attempted suicide like running into the snow in her nightgown, going to the trainstation to throw herself under a train, diving into water in November,...

She tried to endure.

Cherished

Just to say that I've taken the step of calling the counselling service - I've left my mobile number and they will call me back, I'm sure.....

This week, our friends are visiting our town for a week. The H is busy on business and tied up all day, but the wife is free and yesterday I spent with her....she is helping me to clear my vegetable patch...being up there with her yesterday was inspiring...but today its raining hard-(

I have also been back to the doctor and got out of her what I wanted - painkillers, a referral to the physiotherapist and a referral to an orthopedic specialist, which she didn't want to give me. She wanted to refer me for physiotherapy and nothing else....I finally said that until I had a diagnosis for the pain I am in, I am not going to give up, and if I find out that damage has been caused by a delay in diagnosis that could have been avoided, I will be very upset....at that, she backed down....I am so tired of having to battle to be taken seriously....I hope that whatever it is is not too bad....but the way they practice medicine here is different...they guess what could be wrong, and then treat for that...if that doesn't work, they guess something else, instead of identifying a condition and doing the full range of diagnostic tests for that condition to rule it out completely....that's too expensive, so they make do and hope they can identify conditions without too much cost to the system....in the hopes that whatever is wrong with you either won't kill you, or will clear up and go away....usually by the time they find out what's wrong, the condition is acute...that's why there is a higher death rate from cancer here...like my friend's mother who had stomach pain and vomiting and was treated for months for "indigestion" until she died of stomach cancer....anyway, I now have a prescrip for Voltirol and I can still feel the pain, although it is manageable....H and OS have gone to a concert this eve, YS is playing at his friend's house, so I am having a couple of hours to myself....

The friends who are visiting are the couple that I helped recover their marriage three years ago....the H is my H's oldest friend....he is going to take my H out this week for a drink solo....last night we all went out together....I found that inwardly difficult....both of them know what my H has been up to and what he's like with me....the wife is really mad at my H, because she has been through recovery with her H with my help. She says that now, which is almost 3 years since D-day, her H is looking back and can't believe he did what he did...he is full of remorse and is not the same person....he wants to talk to my H...so last night was an icebreaker....I don't think my H will listen to him, though...and I feel low, because I feel like I have lost everything I ever had for my H....I don't like the person he is, I don't like the person he has become, I don't think I will ever be able to get along with him because I can't go back to thinking about him and behaving the way I used to...I realize now that I let him walk all over me....

I know it might sound crazy, considering our past R history, which hasn't been right from the start...I know that...but I do think my H loved me....

Then he got caught in one EA after another....and during EA2, he met a new friend...a very intellectual man who became like his latest friend and spritual advisor....you remember, ss? It was when he was with that guy - talking to that guy - that H started to hate me....up until then, I think he knew he was doing wrong...but something happened there.....that guy went back to the States, but he is still my H's friend, and recently came over this side to a conference....my H saw him because he went to London to take him to the airport...the guy is now married (2 years)....I think that guy was poison....

Anyway, when I think back on the personal R between H and I, the most consistent message I feel like I've got from my H over all the years I've known him is:

"How dare you interfere with my private life?!"

So that doesn't say much for him, I don't think...

Anyway, I just wanted to report that I have called the counselling service....so I think that's a good thing.

Coming here, I was trying to find a way to break out of the bunker I had put myself in....I knew I needed to do SOMETHING - to make contact, to set up therapies for myself...to try to do something...so I think I have now got myself on the road to therapies, and I think my next job is to try to assess my financial state....

Posting here helps me to journal out what I'm thinking and what I have to do...it helps me find the strength to carry out what I think I have to do....like trying to find my way out of a maze....

LIR

OK, I have an appt on Mon. 20th at 12:30. That's a big step for me. I am also reading LoveBusters. What strikes me is how many people come to Harley truly hating each other, which is where I think H and I are.

I talked to my BIL on the phone yesterday....he is reading it, too, I pushed my sis to get 2 copies, so they are both reading it, and their daughter is reading it too - lightbulbs going on in their house now...he and my sis have known each other since High School and have been married 25 years....he said yesterday he would do anything for her, that he is deeply in love with her after 25 years....that really touched me, because they have their problems, too....not infidelity, but LoveBusters on both sides...so I think this book will really help them.....I am hoping it can help us, too....

There was something you said, ss, that really made me listen....that it was not until you read this book that you saw some of the things you were doing, and the effect they had on your wife....my BIL said the same thing yesterday...said he didn't realize the effect they were having....

...some of the husbands in the book sound so much like my H....well, angry outbursts for sure (that's me as well, in the past)....but the guy in the DJ chapter...."coaching" his wife towards improvement and the one in control of everything...finances and decision-making....my H does ALL the LB's....he basically lives as if I didn't exist....he was so confident about the way he handled things (and he is pretty good at handling things)...plus he felt it was his responsiblity, and he was stepping up to the plate and TAKING that responsiblity...that he forgot I was there and had feelings about the decisions he made, as well as a right to make joint decisions...to contribute to the decision-making process....in other words, I was along for the ride, he did a good job at managing our life and he couldn't understand why I got upset or unhappy sometimes...when I did try to have input, or disagreed, there was a ferocious angry outburst on his part as he put me back in my place, or punished me for screwing up (like denting the car)...

...what startles me about Harley's book is how he can turn these relationships around......how many of his examples deal with spouses who don't even register that their spouses have feelings...that's my H...my feelings don't even register on his radar screen and never have.....when I have tried to say that I am hurt by something, he used to say..."well, you shouldn't be...it's not meant to hurt you...it has nothing to do with you...or it's not directed at you...." - something along those lines...in other words, he didn't mean to hurt me and if he did hurt me, I should just forget about it because there was no malice towards me....going further, if I was hurt, there must be something wrong with me for taking offence at something not directed at me.....I remember reading Harley saying somewhere that if you poke someone in the eye, you say you are sorry, you don't say "well, I didn't mean to, so what are you complaining about?!"...but spouses do this all the time..."I didn't mean to, so why are you making such a fuss...?" That's my H. Even to the point of when he was having his EAs, and his PA..."It had nothing to do with you, it wasn't directed at you, I didn't mean to hurt you...."....that I should be hurt angers him.....

I know that when you started posting to me, ss, that it was because you thought you could see something of yourself in my H, and you hoped you could help.....I know that is why I have listened to what you had to say because I knew it came from a space of humility at turning your own marriage around....

I don't really have a lot of hope anymore, and although I don't like my H right now...he has spent all his Love Units bigtime....and we have the added heartache of infidelity, I still see the good in my H. Last night, he took OS to a concert in London....he wanted us all to go, but I backed out because the tickets were standing room only...because of the pain in my side and because I didn't think YS would manage it....but it was POJA that he should go and take OS...I knew they would have a great time and OS would be inspired and have a great experience....and that's what happened...so I am happy....I am happy that H was a good father and spent this special time with OS having a brilliant time...I'm not jealous...I chose not to go this time.....YS and I stayed home, had a happy supper together and YS got to bed at a reasonable hour....we are all going to have a day in London tomorrow, and ALL go to a concert, but this time with seats, so I can sit down....YS can bring his book...we will all be happy....my point is that H can and does try to have a good time with his family....and that it is possible for him to have POJA on occasion....on the RARE occasion....

I guess I try to see the good in my H still, but my first priority is to trying to get myself together....

Don't know where to start........... a lot has happened.

Lets concentrate on the happy part. We celebrated my W's 50th tonight, and nearly all our children were there. We had a very good time.

How are you this weekend?

SS

Congrats to your wife!

I was hoping you were OK. I always figure you should not post unless you feel God wants you to address a specific issue, so I knew that if you had something to say, eventually it would happen.

I've had a good week....like I said, friends were here. The wife did amazing things in my vegetable patch - we spent several days clearing it together....she has worked a miracle there....I feel so inspired to continue, and so grateful....she really stressed to me how healing growing things is, and she loved the site of my vegetable patch...its very peaceful up there....my neighbour has given me some leeks to put in....

I had long talks with her and she took me out to lunch yesterday....I gave her HN, HN and Surviving an Affair to take home with her...she is going to post them back to me when she is done....she and her H are 2 yrs into recovery and it is going well....he did everything he "should" do, MB way...sharing passwords, changing mobile phone, giving her his cellphone, NC, moved house and job...she says he is now very remorseful and looking back on it, can't understand his behaviour....she says he reads the Bible every day now, and is heavily involved in their church and Scripture group....I told her the danger for them is if he ever feels he has done so much for her and it is still not enough...any resentment and anxiety she feels she has to deal with through the total recovery program in SAA, and they need to make sure they are both meeting each other's ENs....they came over to share a bottle of wine with us last night, and as they left, her H passed me in the hall on the way out, gave me a big hug and whispered in my ear, "thank you for everything you have done for (his wife)"....I told her earlier I wouldn't wish what she and I have gone though on my worst enemy, so I am just grateful I have been able to help them...her H didn't have a chance to meet with my H solo...but maybe they will be in e-mail contact....

Today H and the boys head out on holiday for his dad's, stopping at older woman friend's (should I abbreviate that to OWF?) house on the way....I will be following on Tues, then back the following week on 29 Aug....

I also got an appt with the counselor...which I have tomorrow....I am looking forward to that...

Still no developments from our African priest, but there is still time yet before he goes back home....will probably see him this morning in church...

So that's my news. I am plugging away here, trying to set some change in motion...it has to be change that I can handle, though....

LIR

I always figure you should not post unless you feel God wants you to address a specific issue, so I knew that if you had something to say, eventually it would happen.

These last few weeks it has been a lack of time. It pains me when I am not able to do things I feel are important. I speak of many things, not just MB. Being away from home can really limit what one can acomplish. I am through with summer trade shows for this summer, and though busy, at least I am at home now.

You sound better. Bless your friend for lifting you up. You needed it, and it looks good on you.

....she says he is now very remorseful and looking back on it, can't understand his behaviour....she says he reads the Bible every day now, and is heavily involved in their church and Scripture group....

These things go together. When one is actively pursuing God, they get more help.

when I have tried to say that I am hurt by something, he used to say..."well, you shouldn't be...it's not meant to hurt you...it has nothing to do with you...or it's not directed at you...." - something along those lines...in other words, he didn't mean to hurt me and if he did hurt me, I should just forget about it because there was no malice towards me....going further, if I was hurt, there must be something wrong with me for taking offence at something not directed at me.....I remember reading Harley saying somewhere that if you poke someone in the eye, you say you are sorry, you don't say "well, I didn't mean to, so what are you complaining about?!"...but spouses do this all the time

"Oh what? I stabbed you with this knife, and it hurts? Well, I didn't mean to stab you, so you shouldn't really be bleeding."

Yes, I understand. My W and I have discussed this more than once.

I am glad you have an appointment with your counselor. May it help as much as it could, and should.

I've had a good week....like I said, friends were here. The wife did amazing things in my vegetable patch - we spent several days clearing it together....she has worked a miracle there....I feel so inspired to continue, and so grateful....she really stressed to me how healing growing things is, and she loved the site of my vegetable patch...its very peaceful up there....my neighbour has given me some leeks to put in....

After many years of gardening, I believe it really is good for us. I believe it provides a connection with something we need to be connected to. Beyond that, I am not sure if I can explain, but I believe you feel it. Nothing teaches the law or the harvest like growing things in the earth. It provides much of my therapy.

I trust your sons are well?

Still worried about your physical pain. Please report on any news in this area. Sorry you have to cope with it.

Really glad to hear this latest report from you. You really sound like you have more hope (Overall). That's what friends are for.

SS

Thank you for your reply - you know, I know that you are very busy and like all busy people, there is so much more that you would really like to do, especially when you want to help people. One of the things I have found with MB is that it can be addicting - especially when you feel you have a lot to offer people who are hurting. But you should never come to post here if it leaves your family hurting, needing your attention. I have that policy for myself. I am doing my best to build my support network here in "real life", too, because I think that is the healthy thing to do. There is something slightly different about this forum, though - in your "real life", your friends and family can be pretty biased, especially if they see you as the injured party. This forum allows you to air concerns openly and anonymously and get less biased, and very experienced feedback, especially during a crisis, which is invaluable. And sometimes people build supportive relationships here when they are in need. I feel very grateful for the support you have offered me, ss - you have helped to nurture, support and guide my faith when I have been very down and insecure. I am grateful to your wife for supporting you in offering help. There are times when I think it would be nice to be able to thank you both face-to-face someday. Maybe someday many years from now, when I have come through this trial by fire and my boys are grown up. My eyes are still on that prize....to bring my boys up to adulthood without derailing them completely. I don't expect it to be bump-free, as they are struggling, too, but it is so far, the best I could hope for.

I thought I would wait to post until I had my first counselling session. It was an assessment session which lasted about an hour and a half. The counselor I met was not the one I will be counselled by, but I felt good about the way the lady I saw today spoke with me, listened, and seemed to be responsive about the issues I talked with her about. Although I felt very low and cried a lot, as my sad feelings come bubbling up when I try to talk about them, I still felt more assertive than I did in 2002. I think that if I don't get on with the counselor they give me, that I will be able to ask for someone else this time. Last time, I wasn't too happy with the counselor but felt too shy to make an issue of it. The woman who was assessing me felt that what I will need is "long-term" support - my situation is not a short-term quick fix-it issue. I felt relieved about that - I feel she assessed me correctly. We also discussed change and I said that I recognize the need for change, but I don't know how to get there, and there is only so much I can handle. Whatever change I try to make, it has to be change that *I* can handle, and it has to be change that I feel the boys will be able to handle. She said she understood that aspect of it and felt that was a reasonable approach to have at this point. We have set up a possible appt for the 11th of Sept., and I felt reassured on leaving.

I am home alone today. The boys and H went off yesterday - they called me last night at bedtime....H called at midnight searching for their toothbrushes in the car...I had to talk him through where they were....although some would disagree that allowing him to go to OWF's house without me is a bad thing, part of me thought....OK, he has to be "The Parent" now, because I am not there to marshall them into their pyjamas, decide when they should go to bed, unpack their stuff and generally take care of them...he has to do all that when, if I were there, he would be socializing and charming his friends...calling at midnight last night showed me that he finds this difficult...it will allow his friends, (and OWF in particular) to see him struggle and perhaps his temper will flare...the boys will rebel and sulk...he will be controlling...in other words, they will potentially see a side of him they have never seen, which is a good thing...for now. I wouldn't want to put the boys through too much of that....

Anyway, tomorrow I am taking the train up and they will meet me at the station, I will get back in the car and go over on the ferry with them...I'm not sure what the sleeping arrangements will be when we get to FIL's house...but if necessary, I will sleep on the floor. I also intend to have a talk with FIL while I am there. I am thinking about how to approach it. FIL is very fond of me and I think he already knows what the problem is...he is none to pleased that H goes "on business trips" for more than a couple of days. I think I will just tell him the truth in a nutshell - that 6 years ago, we started having problems...that my H has had relationships with other women behind my back which he has lied about, with the latest two years ago, which he admits was an affair. That he does not want to talk to me about it and says he really does not love me, says he never loved me and only married me to try to do the right thing. That I will not sue him for divorce on the grounds of adultery or unreasonable behaviour but I have told him he can sue me for divorce on the grounds that our marriage has broken down completely. I will say that he has broken my heart, that I have tried to save our marriage and I am very concerned for the boys. I do feel that if he is not going to leave us, in other words, if he decides to stay living with us but does not want to reconcile, even so, he should put his wedding ring back on - that he is married in the eyes of the Church, in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law until he is legally divorced and/or our marriage is annulled. And that I don't want him to date other women while he lives with me....just because he decided he isn't married doesn't mean he can do as he pleases and still live with me. In other words, s*** or get off the pot, as my Dad would happily put it! (sorry) I am not stupid enough to think this will stop my H from doing what he wants - after all, that is why we are in this mess in the first place, but I will at least have made my position clear to FIL - that I don't approve of his behaviour and have not given him "permission" to do so. I don't think it is right to ask my FIL for anything, or to do anything. I suspect he will ask me if there is anything he can do and I don't know what to say. I don't think it is ethical to ask him to pay for H to move out...and I don't think he would offer, or want to do that....he will feel that H should pay for the mess he has made himself...but if FIL does have money (and MIL implied that he had a lot) my only concern is that our sons education be supported...that would be the only thing that I feel I could ask him to help me with....

On the more humorous front...I saw an article on "dumpster-diving" here - apparently you can get an amazing haul of high-quality food every day out of the rubbish skips belonging to certain top-market food stores...you just have to be brave enough to venture forth about 10:30 pm and dive in....if things got tough, between my vegetable garden and those dumpsters, I don't think I would ever go hungry....-)


I feel very uplifted by my friend's help with the garden...although I am going away tomorrow, I will be back in a week, and when I come back, I will certainly be planting...leeks, garlic, broad beans (like lima beans) and winter salad - Chinese mustard, kale and radicchio...maybe I could even plant some parsnips and carrots....it is definitely true that I have had moments of joy in that vegetable patch, and that's saying a lot for me....when I sat there after a hard slog clearing and digging and sat down to eat a snack of my own home-grown vegetables, in the shade of the plants I had tended....yes, that was special...it is very healing to bring something to fruition

Well, I am still very slow because I am still feeling tired and sad, but a little less heavy....I had better go and pack my suitcase now before it gets any later....I won't be taking my laptop with me because I don't want the boys to use it to play computer games this week....I'll check in tomorrow before I leave....

I hope you now have some time to relax with your family....

All the best,
LIR

I would guess you are home, or will be shortly. Of course I wonder how this trip went for you. I hope there were happy times and good memories.

I was thinking a few days ago, and came across this passage in the NT. I know you have read it, but thought to bring it to your attention again.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

I think sometimes we (or I) concentrate on the hard parts, and I don't have enough hope. God never breaks his promises.
Never.

I believe you love him. You can take this though to it's logical conclusion - You can't imagine in your wildest dreams how happy he can make you, or the peace that will be in YOUR future.

We often think in earthly terms. We base our hopes and dreams on what we experience, and what we know. Faith teaches us that there are miracles out there - and not all of them are reserved for someone else.

I encourage you to raise your sights. You had dreams once, and they were lofty ones. Don't be afraid to dream. It's good for you. Happiness is not for "others," whoever they might be. It is for you, and for your children, and for your H, if he will repent and come to Christ. Don't give up, and think happiness will never come to YOU.

From Psalms 30:5 -
".......weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."

I encourage you to be of good cheer, and have hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, tell us about the trip - both the good, and the bad. And of course, we want to know how you are doing, both emotionally, and physically. If you skip anything, I'll ask about it anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SS

Finally, I am able to get back here! I HAVE been back since the 30th, but I've had two solid weeks of hard work, which I'll tell you about...good AND sad.....I am feeling very tired today, but can't let any longer go by without thanking you for checking up on me, and trying to start on letting you know how things are going.....

It's strange that you quote 1 Cor 2:9 - I had just read that scripture passage myself and written it down in my prayer diary....it is the passage that I wrote in the last card I gave to my mother when she was dying....my mother used to say that when these "coincidences" happen, they are not coincidences", they mean that you are doing something right in your life, and this is what you are meant to hear....so I take it that this is truly the message that God wants me to hear - he's said it to me twice - once to me in my heart and then again, through you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Is that what you mean by confirmation?

The holiday went OK....although staying with my FIL has its difficulties, I was glad in the end that we did stay with him because we got to see more of him....he is almost 90, and because I was there with him, I was able to see that he really is getting very frail....although I don't think there is any chance of him going into a home...he will stay in his own house until they have to carry him out....

I'll go into our holiday more in depth later....I did get a chance to talk to my FIL....I'll try to tell you about it...he is very old-school in that it is extremely difficult for him to talk about intimate things, and problems and feelings fall under the type of things you don't talk about, so for him to talk to me was a major event...and we didn't say a lot...he was kind to me, though, and he said he was very worried about it....had been worrying about us for a long time and wished we could work things out....I said I had tried to, but H says he doesn't love me anymore, in fact, says that he never loved me....I cried when I said that....FIL said "you don't believe that, do you?"...and I said "no, I don't"...FIL thinks that can't be true...he said that it "takes two to make a fight" and if H were here he would sit down with him and tell him the same thing...I tried to explain that I had tried to take responsibility for my own failings but that hadn't helped the situation....he said he didn't understand H because it is "out of character" for him....I said I thought he was having a mid-life crisis and I was trying to weather it through....he said that H was always a little "difficult" and that there were a few times when he was younger that they almost came to blows because H was convinced he was right (I know the feeling)....I said that sometimes H unleashed his anger on me in private...I said that I did not want to do anything to derail the boys' future and that they were doing well, so I had no plans to take any action to end our marriage...he said he gathered that my H had been "disloyal" to me and was I sure about that?...I said I was, that I had found proof, and that H was angry at me for going through his things....I said H would not apologize to me and did not want to talk about it or see a counselor or priest....he said could I not write H a little letter and say I was willing to let bygones be bygones and try to start over...I told him I had already forgiven H and told him how I had told him that...he wants me to try again...I told him that the trouble with H was that he lived an independent life, and made decisions as if I did not exist, he planned what he was doing, to see his friends, to go places, to socialize, without consulting me or taking my feelings into account, and that he gets angry with me if I disagree with him...FIL said sadly that he knew H did this...clearly he did not like it....but he (like everyone else, feels powerless to have any impact on H)... the last thing he said to me as we left, as I kissed him goodbye, he hugged me (which he rarely does) and asked me to try to write that letter....I feel for my FIL...he wants, at the end of his life, for everything to be OK, to leave us knowing we are happy, and this is really hurting him....I don't think H cares at all, or even comprehends that our situation DOES hurt his dad....

I don't think this talk will have any effect on our situation...because I don't think FIL has any "leverage" with H....I hesitated to do it, because H and FIL had a mini-row in the two days that H was there, and I saw how hard on H my FIL can be...but I also know that FIL has a caring side, and I felt that FIL would understand that I was approaching him to try to be open and honest about what was happening to us, as I suspect H is likely to "fill him in" - in other words, he is in the dark and no-one tells him anything and he is too polite to ask....

So basically, he wants me to write H and tell him I am willing to forgive and forget....

I am meditating on this.

I also wanted to tell you that I had my first counselling appointment today....I think that I like the counselor...I felt much better about her than the last counselor I had in 2002...this lady is about my age, and seems able to pick up on what I tried to talk through....she was able to pull things together and repeat back to me what I had said...so I could tell she had been listening...I have a good feeling about her...and we agreed that one of my goals in coming to counselling is to try to make sense out of everything so that I can eventually work out a direction for my life....

I have more to talk about, but it's now late and I have to try to get some sleep...I am now back at work and having to get up at 6-6:30 am...the boys are back in school...everything there has gone very well....I have also put some hard work into my vegetable garden...got quite a bit of reading done on my coursework while I was away, but haven't looked at my books once in the two weeks that I have been back....

I am hoping you are well, ss....thank you for all your words of encouragement

LIR

Greetings !

Reading, and thinking.

Glad you are safe. It sounds like you are back in the routine. That can be both good, and bad. (SS chuckles.)


my mother used to say that when these "coincidences" happen, they are not coincidences", they mean that you are doing something right in your life, and this is what you are meant to hear....so I take it that this is truly the message that God wants me to hear - he's said it to me twice - once to me in my heart and then again, through you! Is that what you mean by confirmation?

In part, it is what I mean. He also confirms it in your heart by the witness of the Holy Spirit. This is something you feel, more than hear.
I do believe that message was meant for you to have. I came across it by accident, but felt it was meant for you.

I'll wait to hear the rest of your experience.

Sons are doing well?

I notice that many parents are caught up on their own struggles, and some are not aware of the struggles of their children. Do you know what the greatest worries of your boys are as they begin this new school year?
I am just curious. No ulterior motive.

My garden suffers from the heat this time of year. By now, the plants have had more than 2 1/2 months of over 100 deg F days, and they are only watered once a week. The peppers do the best in the heat, and we have bell peppers, and several varieties of hot peppers. We enjoy southwest style cooking, so they are useful.

The tomatoes are struggling, and the squash are struggling. Low production right now - but it will come back in Late Sept and last until Late November when we get first frost.

I have the pole beans coming up for fall - it's too hot in the summer for them. And I will plant my winter garden this Saturday. Turnips, Carrots, and spinach. Most winters are mild enough to get a winter crop of these things. Oh, and onions will go through the winter also.

Anyway, I am thinking about the things you have said and will perhaps keep my comments until after you have finished with your thoughts.

Ok, maybe I'll comment on just a few things.

So basically, he wants me to write H and tell him I am willing to forgive and forget....

Are you thinking about it to know if you really are willing, or are you wondering if it will do any good to write it?


Very glad your counselor seems to be a help to you. Praying it will accomplish what you need it to.

but haven't looked at my books once in the two weeks that I have been back....

I admit to worrying about that. Time is short even when the H, and the W are full and equal partners. It is worse when things are out of balance. We continue to pray for you.

I am feeling very tired today................

The world, and the weight of the world...... seems to be very much with us lately. I wonder if this is an indicator........... that something big is about to happen.

I am glad your sons are not old enough to be drafted.

We trust that God will continue to take care of all that look to him for strength.

SS

Thank you, ss - yes, I am back in routine - up 6-6:30am, leave house at 8, walk to work, work, walk home, shop on the way home, home 4-4:30, then do chores, start dinner, ferry kids to where they need to go sometimes, do laundry....dinner, supervise homework, ironing....wash up....not done until 10pm, usually....kids help, H helps sometimes...but...I'm feeling exhausted....I am SOOOO looking forward to having that one day off from work, which starts in Oct.....so I've found it hard to come back and post, even though I have "stuff"...


I hear you...sometimes you just know it - it speaks out at you...when my sons asked me once why they had to go to church when they got bored, I said to them..."I know you are bored, but I am sure that during the hour you are there, there will be at least one thing that you pay attention to, that gets your attention....and it's that one thing that God wants YOU to hear that day, even though the rest sounds boring....that one thing is the reason why you go to church...you don't have to pretend to be interested in the rest, although that wouldn't hurt...." Thank you for passing on the message!-)

I wish I could find the time to write!

Very well! Settled into school, enjoying it and working well....


That is actually a great question...and the honest answer is no....I should....but I never thought about it in that way, and I haven't asked them directly...do you have any suggestions about how to approach them?



Gosh! How do YOU cope? Mine is doing OK....working on clearing the ground.....just have some leeks and some ruby chard coming up...I'm going to plant broadbeans (like lima beans) to overwinter, and hopefully some raspberry canes....too late to have anything else....


Not sure. I don't have any feeling that my H is capable of changing, so I guess I feel writing such a note would not improve our marriage - if we "reconciled", it would be on the same terms that I have accepted before....with no moves from H towards changing his behaviour, just carrying on the way he is, but sleeping with me again....and how can I accept this when he has made it absolutely clear that he doesn't love me? FIL wants me to write this note, but I have already told H I forgive him and told him I still love him, so I don't know what more I could do in that respect, except write him a letter with a list of demands that I know he wouldn't accept, and that he would see as controlling...? So I feel stuck....I told FIL this, but he still wants me to write this note....he won't ask me again, though...FIL is very quiet....


Thank you. I saw her for the second time this week and I do find it helpful...it is still early days....


I am just too tired. That's why I need one day off per week - only then can I get some work done on my degree...and I want to do it....I have plans....


Are you worried about this? I hope this never happens. My nephew is 23 and in the Navy - he's a submariner...out at sea now until Nov. - he enjoyed it at first, but is now finding it demoralizing because he doesn't feel his hard work and excellent service is being rewarded....I feel bad for him...I pray that he stays safe.... and all your loved ones, too...

To update....briefly, because I will have to go out in a few minutes....

H's OWF wrote to me last week....a very beautiful, contrite letter apologizing for anything she might have said to offend me, saying that she believed some of the things she said to me were harsh and insensitive, and she begged me to tell her if I had anything against her, and to forgive her if she had hurt me in any way.....this is what took up my energy last week...I tried to write to her several times and kept getting bogged down...I really struggle these days to find any words to express myself because I feel so emotionally drained....but I did write back to say that yes, some of the things she had said to me did hurt me very much, but that I do forgive her (I do...it's not just words)....when I have more time, I will tell you more....I haven't heard back from her, but I am OK with that....

Another thing happened that upset me which I found hard to talk about....when we came back from our holiday, I learned that the father of one of YS school friends had died the day I left to go on holiday. This upset me because I tried to help this man a few weeks before....it was clear to me that this man (who was a very nice man, a loving father, went to our church, often stood in the pew in front of us) had a drinking problem...I could always smell it on his breath....when you have lived with an alcoholic, and you have alcoholism in the family, like I do, you recognize this smell...it was always there with him...the morning after smell...anyway, apparently his wife left him in May or June...I still saw him at the school from time to time...then, end of July, I saw him in the supermarket....I tried to avoid bumping into him by turning down aisles to get away from him but as luck would have it, I turned around and there he was...he said hi to me...I could see that he had a little bit of food in his basket and a large bottle of vodka...he was such a nice man...I hoped he wouldn't bring up his family problems because I didn't want him to be embarassed....but he did, and once he started talking, he couldn't stop...I stood with him for at least 45 minutes while he spilled it all out, his fears that his wife was having an affair with a guy she had become friends with whose wife had just left HIM....I tried to comfort him but also give him some reasonable advice - I told him he should come to MarriageBuilders and start reading the articles here...I managed to approach the subject of his drinking...he admitted that it could be a problem...he said he would go to AA if she wanted him to....from my experience, and I do have some, it was clear to me that he was not in a space to stop drinking....he was not ready to quit...and actually, that's a very selfish space to be in....but he was not there...he was still making excuses for himself...but he was also clearly devastated by his wife leaving him....so I come back to find that he died....I still don't know how he died....no-one seems to know...but if it was suspicious, there would be an inquest and there hasn't been....I just hope and pray that he didn't take his own life....for his children's sake.....the thing is that I don't know who else knows what he told me...about his wife....I don't want to tell anyone....but I feel bad about it....I wish I could have helped him more....I know it's not my fault, but I feel sad for him and his family....I don't feel as bad as I did when I first came back from holiday, but I had to sit with that for awhile.....I hope it was nothing I said...he didn't want to believe his wife was having an affair, and I tiptoed around it, too, but I was skeptical, to be honest.....I guess all I can do is pray about it.....

So, I've got to go now.....to take OS to a lesson....

I will try to pop in this weekend...am determined to get more sleep this week.....

Wishing you well...

LIR

Thank you, ss - yes, I am back in routine - up 6-6:30am, leave house at 8, walk to work, work, walk home, shop on the way home, home 4-4:30, then do chores, start dinner, ferry kids to where they need to go sometimes, do laundry....dinner, supervise homework, ironing....wash up....not done until 10pm, usually....kids help, H helps sometimes...but...I'm feeling exhausted....I am SOOOO looking forward to having that one day off from work, which starts in Oct.....so I've found it hard to come back and post, even though I have "stuff"...



Living the tired life is no fun. I can't believe how much you ladies actually do each day. My routine seems easy when compared to yours, but for some reason I have been tired also. It is not so bad to go to bed tired, but when you wake up tired, and never ever feel rested, it takes a huge toll on a person. I see you know what it feels like.

I understand about posting........ and I would guess some nights it's all you can do to get into bed at a decent hour. I would also bet that there are many times when all you can do at the end of the evening is just sit.

Ah - to be 17 again. Except that I would never go back just to have more energy. It was too hard the first time, I don't know if I could do it over again.


What you told your son about church is so true. It is also true that part of growing up is learning to make boring things interesting by applying our selves to the subject at hand.

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I'll wait to hear the rest of your experience.

I wish I could find the time to write!

I worry when I ask questions....... because one can sometimes feel how it is on the other end. Knowing the energy it takes, and knowing how tired you are........
At any rate - I worry. I continue to pray that your H will help more. When the marriage partnership is functioning properly, it is much easier to make things work. I am sure attitude is part of it. We can do so much more when we know it is appreciated, and when we have help.

So glad your sons are doing well. The twins (daughters 14) are doing fine, though they were not excited for the new year to begin. One of them will be playing a solo in church in a few weeks, and the other just won first place in both ceramics, and line drawing in a multi school art competition this week. So, they do well most of the time. Children are a wonderful gift from God.

Quote

I notice that many parents are caught up on their own struggles, and some are not aware of the struggles of their children. Do you know what the greatest worries of your boys are as they begin this new school year?

That is actually a great question...and the honest answer is no....I should....but I never thought about it in that way, and I haven't asked them directly...do you have any suggestions about how to approach them?

I have a hard time with the girls, because I can't read their minds like I could the boys. (Having been a boy makes that easier.) I watch them in the evenings for signs.

How happy are they?
How much patience do they have?
Can they concentrate on what they are doing, or are they distracted?
Sometimes it's as easy as "tell me what's going on"
If I ask about each subject at school they will sometimes talk a lot about one of them that has been the most trouble. (this is spread over several evenings.) Usually it's a teacher/student thing, not a subject/student problem.

If they are asked questions about what is going on, they come to understanding on their own in most cases.
"Why do you think your teacher does it that way?"
"Do all the other students have a problem with it too?"
"What do you feel is the best way to make it work?"
"Would you like your mother to help you with that?"

I hope the last one made you laugh.

To be honest, I never used to think much about this with my own children, but I have the opportunity to interview all the youth (12 to 18) in our small church at least once a year, and so I better understand what causes them stress, and how to encourage them, and help them.

The twins respond well to having breakfast with me, and having me home for supper so we can talk about their day. Humor is a wonderful catalyst for conversation too.

"What was the most enjoyable thing you did today?"
"What was the most difficult?"
"Do you have much homework tonight?"
"Anything interesting happen on the bus today?"

Well, that's probably enough. I was just wondering if you have a difficult time reading boys minds, like I do girls minds. Thought you would bring it up and see what methods YOU used. I hope you don't mind me asking questions like that.


Gosh! How do YOU cope? Mine is doing OK....working on clearing the ground.....just have some leeks and some ruby chard coming up...I'm going to plant broadbeans (like lima beans) to overwinter, and hopefully some raspberry canes....too late to have anything else....

Cactus gardens do really well here. You don't even have to water them !!

We don't do well with very many things, but we manage. We do have some raspberries, and they struggle, but we have boysenberries that grow like weeds, and the jam is really good. One of these days, I'll have to come by and visit your garden. It would be interesting to see the differences.

About writing the forgiving letter -
Not sure. I don't have any feeling that my H is capable of changing, so I guess I feel writing such a note would not improve our marriage - if we "reconciled", it would be on the same terms that I have accepted before....with no moves from H towards changing his behaviour, just carrying on the way he is, but sleeping with me again....and how can I accept this when he has made it absolutely clear that he doesn't love me? FIL wants me to write this note, but I have already told H I forgive him and told him I still love him, so I don't know what more I could do in that respect, except write him a letter with a list of demands that I know he wouldn't accept, and that he would see as controlling...? So I feel stuck....I told FIL this, but he still wants me to write this note....he won't ask me again, though...FIL is very quiet....

When you first mentioned that FIL brought it up, I thought about it quite a bit. I wondered if you wrote something along these lines if it would help.

Dear H, I was thinking about you today, and thought I would write you.

We have had an interesting time these last few years.

Our marriage has not been all that I would like it to be. I would guess it is not all that you would want either. I thought perhaps it was time for me to make you an offer for us to reconcile, and see if we can have a relationship that both of us would really enjoy.

I would like to forgive, and forget. I would like for us to have love again, and trust. I would love for us to have the chance to talk about these things, and work out the details.

End of sample -

I was thinking along those lines. My fear is that you would get hurt even more than you already have been. For you to write something along those lines would be emotionally difficult, and the chances are that if he rejected your offer, it would hurt all over again as bad, or worse than it has every other time.

Usually when I think along these lines, I think of the 7 times 70 comment, and how many chances I had before I finally got it. (OF course, I still make mistakes, so maybe I have not "GOT IT" perfectly even now.)

You would have to write it with the things you want to say, I was only thinking along the lines of what tone I would use were I in your situation, and writing something of that nature. This is not supposed to be telling you that you ought to be doing it soon. Just telling you my thoughts on it, for what it's worth.
Doing it, or not doing it is something that you can know through sincere thought, and prayer. I think taking time, and thinking about it would be helpful - meaning that you don't need to rush into it, not that you should set aside time right now. I would suppose that walking to work is a time of thought for you.

SS smiles - you may think on these things, or you may make up the grocery list, but I would guess you are able to do some thinking.

On working on your degree -
I am just too tired. That's why I need one day off per week - only then can I get some work done on my degree...and I want to do it....I have plans....

Would it be an intrusion to ask after your plans? Please don't feel any need to comment if you don't wish to. You could just skip over it, and not even bring it up.


Are you worried about this? I hope this never happens. My nephew is 23 and in the Navy - he's a submariner...out at sea now until Nov. - he enjoyed it at first, but is now finding it demoralizing because he doesn't feel his hard work and excellent service is being rewarded....I feel bad for him...I pray that he stays safe.... and all your loved ones, too...

To be honest, I don't know what will happen in the world. The financial markets show some wild swings. The bible predicts war in the last days, and natural disasters. W's brother has been in Afghanistan until about a month ago. Next door neighbor was in Iraq for 18 months.

Jesus spoke once about his people being able to read the weather, but not signs of the times. To me, it feels like something is coming, but I claim no specific knowledge.

H's OWF wrote to me last week....a very beautiful, contrite letter apologizing for anything she might have said to offend me, saying that she believed some of the things she said to me were harsh and insensitive, and she begged me to tell her if I had anything against her, and to forgive her if she had hurt me in any way.....this is what took up my energy last week...I tried to write to her several times and kept getting bogged down...I really struggle these days to find any words to express myself because I feel so emotionally drained....but I did write back to say that yes, some of the things she had said to me did hurt me very much, but that I do forgive her (I do...it's not just words)....when I have more time, I will tell you more....I haven't heard back from her, but I am OK with that....

WOW -
One of these days, we'll (meaning my W and I) will have to get together with you and just talk. It takes so long to type some things out. Was that helpful, or did it just create more stress?

It was sad to read about the father of your son's friend who passed away. It does create stress, even if we know we could not help. At least it does if we care about people, and I know you do.

I have been working with two families these past few weeks. One who's baby came early ( less than 2 lbs) and another who are struggling with their marriage. It has taken a lot of energy, hence I understand about being tired.

I take comfort in God, knowing he is always there, and will help when help is needed. When I tell you God cares about you, it is from personal experience, not because I know the theory. He does care about you.

May the weekend be kind to your need for sleep. God bless you.

SS

PS - I don't have time to edit for errors, so forgive me if they are bad ones.

Would you believe that the reason why I have not posted is sheer tiredness? Sometimes I feel as tired as a dog with three legs! The last three weeks have been so busy....H was away for 5 days last week, which didn't give me any more free time - I was just less stressed...both the boys (and H) have been sick, and I've chosen to do things with the boys on these last two weekends....I took YS to the movies this last weekend, which was nice...to do something alone - and OS has had various things on at school. So I have been back to getting to bed too late, which is not at all good for me....

So, I am sorry I haven't been back...I am not ungrateful for the support you've offered me so unselfishly over the years, ss....believe me.

I finally have some "good" news on the pain I have been suffering....I saw a physiotherapist last week, who immediately seemed to recognize all the pain I was describing, and she says that it sounds like I have damaged a disc in my back....that pain from that often is felt in the leg and the pelvis....I feel much more cheerful, relieved to know that it is as "simple" as that....however....it's not such great news, really is it? But she has given me some heavy-duty physio exercises that I need to do...I have started doing them and the pain is now moving around to my back! Basically, I have a lot of work to do on the old skeletal frame here, and the muscles that support it....she also says that the problem is deeply exacerbated by my work....sitting, and typing on a keyboard for several hours a day....data entry....this is a warning to all who post here for hours a day....unless you take care of your posture and get up, walk around, and do back exercises, spending a lot of time here can seriously damage your back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Not the greatest news, but it could be worse! So far, at least I don't need surgery....and I am just so relieved to know what is wrong....slightly annoyed though that 5 GPs and 3 other specialists couldn't diagnose something that simple....you would think that doing in your lower back is one of the most common things in the world, and something GPs see frequently....

So...I have to be careful about spending too much time on a computer....it will FORCE me to be brief! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have now had 4 counselling appointments and am feeling like I like my counselor....I am just finding it helpful to have someone confidential to talk to, completely privately, knowing that there will be someone there each week at the same time every week.....I feel she is compassionate and is able to take on board the stuff I need to talk through, and she seems able to try to find a positive direction for things to go from week to week....

(Well the phone just rang - I had to answer that, now I have to go get YS from a friend's and also clean up the kitchen and get dinner on the table....so I have to end...this is the way it goes...)

The other good thing is that I am finally going to start having those Wednesdays off....the new person who will be working that day started at work and I have been training him...he'll be fine...and I think it's a good thing for my boss...while I like feeling like I make a strong positive contribution at work, I am also feeling like I am indispensible in that my boss has become too dependent on me, which is not really a good thing...she shouldn't have to call me at home for routine things...so my not being there one day a week will be good for her...she has relied on me too much....don't get me wrong, I think she is a fantastic boss, and does a great job as a manager, but she has relied on me to do the "front desk", and if I am sick, or if I had to take time off work, I am afraid she would not really know what to do...so it's time she got to grips with that...it puts too much emotional stress on me....I can't just walk aaway from it, which is what I need to do....

I would love to continue with my post, but I can't....but I wanted to touch base so that you knew I was not ignoring your last post....there are things I want to come back to....but I will have to do that later....hopefully it won't be too long...

I hope you are well....not good when you get that tired...have you had a diabetes test? Heart check up? You take care....best regards to Mrs. ss....

God bless,
LIR

Would you believe that the reason why I have not posted is sheer tiredness? Sometimes I feel as tired as a dog with three legs!

Yes, I would believe it.

Sometimes I wonder just how much I ought to say. I mean, we think a lot of things we never say out loud.

Here is my line of thinking about you being tired.

There is tired, and then there is tired. Someone that does physical work can be exhausted when they get home. Someone who is depressed, or suffers from anxiety can be emotionally exhausted almost continually. You seemed to be doing better this year, but knowing the history, one worries about your energy levels. I am not saying this to cast you in a bad light. I believe you have researched depression, and probably know more about it than I do. It's not even the dead of winter yet, so environment shouldn't be hard to cope with - as far as your physical world. However, your emotional world is probably not getting much better.

You still long for a companion, and you still have lonely times when you wonder - or doubt.

Now, this is all supposition on my part. I am just typing out some of the things I have worried about. I really hope you have lots of good days too when you believe with all your heart that your future is bright.

I think I typed this out as a help. Remember that we, as members of the human family have similar problems. You are not going through anything that hasn't been experienced by many others. (Myself included.) I like to remember that it's a temporary state of mind, and that someday the Lord will remove us from these test conditions, and that we will be free of the things that try to drag us down. Meanwhile, we continue to function as best we can.

Now, you are kind to worry about me too - You said:
I hope you are well....not good when you get that tired...have you had a diabetes test? Heart check up? You take care....best regards to Mrs. ss....

A few years ago I had some bad chest pains. W took me in for a full battery of tests. The treadmill, and the works.

The doc said "You are as healthy as a work horse - those pains in your chest are heartburn."

It was acid reflux. My problems with ulcers just relocated.

So, I learned to cope, and it went away. I believe I have talked a little bit about it already.

I am tired because of emotional stress, and exhaustion. My duties in my church take a lot of energy. Now, it is good for me, but it takes energy to make it work. I don't believe I am in any danger from it, so I continue as best I can.

Last month a couple had problems, and the W filed for D. Another couple had a baby come three months early. It was touch and go for a while, but it is doing much better now. Last Sunday, I got a call from a lady who had almost taken her own life - she needed to talk to someone once the hospital released her.
I know God is there, and that he will help, but sometimes the people I work with don't know that. Once they know, and once they start getting that help, they can usually begin to put their life back together.

I suspect that the position you hold in your family, and doing what you do with no companion/helper may be what takes it out of you even more than the schedule you keep - heavy as that is.

I'm just vocalizing my thoughts. Tell me if I worry too much.

SS smiles - You should know that we continue to pray for you.

How are the leeks coming ? My winter onions have sprouted, and the turnips are doing really well. Of course, we won't have frost for another month or more, so we continue to get tomatoes.

SS

As far as your back.......

Not the greatest news, but it could be worse! So far, at least I don't need surgery....and I am just so relieved to know what is wrong....slightly annoyed though that 5 GPs and 3 other specialists couldn't diagnose something that simple....you would think that doing in your lower back is one of the most common things in the world, and something GPs see frequently....

My uncle is a Surgeon. He and I talked about this one day. He told me that if you get in an accident, they can do a good job of fixing you up. But - He also said that if you have a pain somewhere, or are ill, often they can't figure out what causes it, or how to fix it. He told me lots of people get well before the doctor figures out what was wrong.

I won't go into all the reasons he gave, but don't feel like the lone ranger.

I hope that you will improve now that you know, and can begin to work on the problem.

The boys are well?

SS

Very good to hear from you, ss - glad to know you have had heart checked out and that's ok - sounds like your wife keeps good tabs on you! After all, she wants to have you around for as long as possible!

I only just this evening managed to get back to check here - thank you so much for the reply....our router failed last week, so we had to wait for our phone company to send us a new one as it is still under warranty - couple that with the ongoing postal strike on in the UK and we just got back online. In some ways, I miss those pre-internet days...I used to write a lot more letters....I'm not so big on e-mail....there's nothing to hold on to....I like to see someone's writing, and all the nice cards and stamps....

I understand what you are trying to say about exhaustion...I have always spent a lot of time "supporting" my loved ones, and friends who need support - some of my friends have had breakdowns, some have physical illness....life gets tough, and it helps us to be thankful, but it can get emotionally exhausting....I seriously wish that I could do more. I feel that if our marriage were stable and what I would like it to be, I would practically have open house at my home....I was always the kid bringing home stray cats....but yes, you are right, I am starting to feel the impact of the emotional toll on me....now that I am in counselling, I guess I am starting to reveal the depth of the impact to my inner self. I am beginning to trust the counselor can handle what it is I have to try to talk through, and that she can help me find my way out of the maze I feel I am lost in...I have basically abandoned H to his own devices, which makes me feel very sad. I do not want to leave him as I feel I would be abandoning him, but at the same time, I need to work on trying to restore myself right now, if that is possible....

Your testimony that the Lord is real and that He will help you if you keep trying to do His will really does come back to me over and over again. I am glad you said it.

I am doing little things to help myself. Like just now, I found the perfect picture to put as my desktop background. I decided to image search the internet for a particular scenic view of a place close to my heart - where I spent my teenage summers - my mother and my brother's ashes are scattered there....I found the exact picture I was looking for, so I can now look at it every time I log on....little stuff like that that lifts my heart.

Today was a beautiful autumn day here...I worked a little bit in my garden and a robin came down to watch me...they hang around when you are working...when your back is turned, they drop down and snap up bugs and worms you have overturned...I can always tell when he is around because I can hear the low beat of his wings, then I see him, very near, on the old brick wall, or perched on a low branch in a nearby shrub, watching me with his tiny black eye. Robins are very bold....tiny birds with a bright red breast, and standing tall on their little stick legs. They are out in the fields in the spring and summer, but move back into the town gardens in the winter...this one always comes down now whenever I am working in my garden...like a friend. I now have some salad greens, leeks, and I planted some winter onions...its encouraging....still not that cold here yet...

Well, my back is hurting so I have to stop....seeing the doctor - the back doctor - on 31 Oct....hopefully he will order an MRI scan....so I'd better go.

You take care.

LIR

I read through your post a couple of times...... so as to absorb it better.

It's so interesting what one can pick up from things about daily life, and the way a person says things. The words one uses, the way they are put together.....
I used to write a person (here on MB) who's screen name was SVB1. I could pick up a lot about her from those cues - but I think it may have .... what's the right word?
Not scared her, but it was a little unsettling for her to have me pick up things that she might not have intended.

I think your counselor must be helping, because you don't sound so worried as you did even a few months ago. There is a calm feeling I get from reading that wasn't there for a long time. I think it is helping you cope from day to day to know you have someone to talk to that understand you, and that you know is safe. Safety is important.

I guess I am starting to reveal the depth of the impact to my inner self.

When you understand that the Atonement is real, you begin to discover great healing power.

"Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" begins to mean that if he did it, we can too, with his help.

I wonder if I had been in the boat with them, on the sea, if I would have doubted, or If I would have thought "Well, this is the Lord in the boat next to us, and he is sleeping. There is still much for him to do, so I doubt this storm has the power to sink us." Hindsight is such a wonderful thing, and there is great power in it's lessons.

You were sent to earth to accomplish things. To learn? YES!! and to be refined, and to grow, but also to accomplish, to bloom, and flower, and experience joy.
I am very glad you are getting help.

I am doing little things to help myself. Like just now, I found the perfect picture to put as my desktop background. I decided to image search the internet for a particular scenic view of a place close to my heart - where I spent my teenage summers

My W grew up in Whittier, CA. She spent summers on the beach. I wondered if your memories are the same, or similar. Sometimes she gets a look in her eyes...... and she remembers. I think it is good to reflect on happy times, and to dream of future ones.

Well, my back is hurting so I have to stop....seeing the doctor - the back doctor - on 31 Oct....hopefully he will order an MRI scan....so I'd better go.

I really hope it can be repaired. We'll pray for that.

Is the new person at your work making things easier for you?

As far as gardens go - the fall green beans are almost ready for the first picking. I take out the determinate tomatoes, and leave the indetermanite ones, and I put beans in place of the determanites.
We can't really grow Salad greens very well, because it freezes in the winter, and it is to hot in the summer. Spring and fall don't seem long enough. I have tried lettuce, but never had success. I suppose one has to make do with what one has, not what one wishes for. That seems to be true with both gardens, and life.

I am not sure what your father's specialty was. Did you ever consult with him about your back?

SS

I remember that. I have always wondered what happened to her. I think you helped her a lot. I left the forum while she was resolving her marriage and when I came back, she was gone, except she checked back in once, I remember. I have always wondered if she ever found out what her husband was up to when he put that unexplained mileage on the car. I suspected he was visiting a brothel or something. I felt so bad for her when she was using the hidden tape recorder, but understood why she did it...I have sometimes thought I should do that myself, but it would break my heart to hear the bad things I think I would hear my H say about me. There really isn't anything left of the feelings I had for my H when I first came on to this forum - all the romantic feelings you have that engender jealousy when you suspect they are in love with someone else. I think I also felt like it was useless to get more evidence....the lawyer told me I had enough evidence to divorce him, so it was really up to me, and I didn't think any evidence I got from spying on him was going to help me influence him to change what he was doing.


Yes, I think so. She asked me what my priorities were right now and I said safety was the most important thing. Why it is I feel safest not separating from him, I don't know, maybe it has something to do with not rocking the boat, but maybe it could be that he is not involved with anyone right now (that's my feeling anyway) so he is feeling more "normal". I also think that OS growing up and getting bigger and weightier than him is changing the dynamic in the house - H is not ALWAYS a bad father - I've always said that - it is really like he is two people - a decent one and a selfish, stressed-out one, and when the selfish one is dominant, things get stressy with him making an issue over small things and getting authoritative and antagonizing everyone around him. My sister said something the other day, that a counselor told her that when someone has been severely bullied, they often acquire a behaviour of provoking people into confrontation - it is the way they can be in control of WHEN the confrontation occurs - because one aspect of bullying is that it is out of the control of the victim and can happen anytime, so the victim develops this strong psychological reaction which is to provoke confrontation rather than to wait for it to happen - they expect to be bullied, so they would rather be in control of the conflict by creating it themselves. Weird to me, because I wasn't bullied as a child, but it makes a certain weird sense - and it could be what is going on with my H - I never thought of that before.

You say I sound calmer. I wonder how you can tell. I'm not sure I feel calmer overall, but it is true that I have felt moments of calm in my counselling, and it is these moments I have noticed. In my counselling, I am trying to look at how I feel when I talk - what makes me upset, sad, and also what generates calm. It made me feel calm when my counselor told me we could take all the time it needed to take to try to untangle all the different threads I have bound up inside myself. I sometimes get this feeling of immense calm when I pray, and it's that that I wait for. One of the things that bothers me is that back in 2003, when I prayed for help to decide what to do about H, during Mass, and during Communion, I had that feeling - it came and possessed me just for a few moments and it said "separate yourself from him". Just that. It wasn't what I wanted to hear. I have been totally committed to my marriage. But that has made me doubt and now I wonder if I am going against God by trying to stay.

Expand, please...-)

Well, I have always felt that Jesus was right there with me, like he was sitting on the bed next to me with an arm around my shoulders. I think I feel a little braver - just a little. Partly I think I am starting to acknowledge that I am unhappy because H doesn't meet my needs, for whatever reason, I have to admit that maybe he isn't the right person to meet my needs and I need to stop resenting him for it. I just read Harley's latest newsletter about expectations in marriage - I expected that he would give me affection, that he would protect me and care for me...yes, I did expect that, strangely enough, and no, in all counts, he has not fulfilled my expectations. But that doesn't make him a bad person - you could easily judge him badly, but that would ignore all the times he tries hard to step up to the plate, which he does. I guess I think he has a few strikes against him because of his background and whatever it is he is keeping to himself, but I have to let go of resenting him for letting me down and just let it go. It's just really hard for me to face up to the possiblity of eventually having to say goodbye. It's easier to end a marriage when you are full of anger and self-righteousness. It's easy to throw someone out who has done the dirty on you. It's a lot harder to quietly agree that what you committed the rest of your life to is a failure for both of you and everything you invested yourself in is just a hollow shell. I guess it wouldn't be hard if I didn't believe marriage is for life. If I thought it was OK to cut your losses and just try again, I wouldn't find it so hard, but I just don't feel that way....so it really feels to me like my life as a married woman is over for good, which feels pretty hopeless. (And you said 'be of good cheer'! - well, I know what you mean, and I think these thoughts are just things I have to work through...)

I am SURE I would have definitely doubted!!

Thanks, ss...I sometimes express very depressing thoughts here, and I am anxious as I don't want to be accused of wallowing in misery - as BrambleRose says - pain is a given, misery is optional - I am struggling to find the joy in life - for me it is very small things - my boys smiles, their hugs and kisses, my Dad's sense of humour, colours in the garden, natural beauty like the trees changing colour now, pictures of my mom's smile...certain words I read and the way they go together, my favourite soccer team scoring a goal or winning the match.....

Thank you. I am hoping it doesn't require surgery. Today it has hurt a lot so I have to go lie down now. It's weird - my physiotherapy exercises don't seem to be helping, so I'm wondering what it is. Can't wait to see the doctor and hope I am not disappointed again.

Yes, he is. He is well qualified, and it is a new experience for me to train someone else to do this job. I am feeling it is allowing me to let go of my compulsion to be "there" for my boss, so I can let go of that stress, which is helpful to me....I think I have turned a psychological corner with my studies as well. Although I haven't got much done with my 2 weeks off, I have started studying again (just not very much), and I realized that everything I am studying is what I need for my life skills - so it is actually exactly what I need to be doing - very Zen, don't you think? The module I am doing is Management Studies - basically an intro to management - strategic planning, business plans, human resources, information flow, communication, organizational behaviour (I've covered all this) - right now I've started on the budgeting and financial planning section - I've always resisted this (being the dreamy type and considering it boring) but I am realizing that it is actually very interesting and I can apply it to all areas of my life - if I had done it 25 years ago, I would not be where I am today!-) So it seems to have become THE thing that I have to do, not something that feels onerous to have to do, if you know what I mean....that's good!

You'll have to educate me in what this means...my tomatoes are always rubbish...maybe I'm doing it wrong....

I know lettuce has to be watered a lot, otherwise it will bolt in the heat. Also, you might be able to grow different types of lettuce, something more sturdy, like Cos lettuce. (?) It freezes here too, and I think the only greens that grow through that are the beet greens and Chinese mustard greens, and radicchio - you can cover things with plastic cloches if you want to take the trouble (do you have those? Like little portable plastic tents - they keep the frost off - or you can grow things in a "cold frame" - this is easy to make - often made with old windows or a square of plexiglass - make a wooden frame (like a box), then cover it with the window or the plexiglass - you grow the lettuce inside it - the glass acts as a mini-greenhouse and protects the plants inside from frost - you lift the cover every day with a stick to allow it to breathe, but lower the glass at night, like putting the plants to bed....

My dad is an eye surgeon, but he knows a lot about other things. I do run everything medical past him - he is appalled by the length of time it is taking to diagnose whatever is wrong with me, but what can he do?

Also, I forgot to say that yesterday I told H that I was in counselling. What happened was that his former counselor (the priest) was in town on a visit. My H went out to see him 4 (!) times over as many days. So I asked him if it was "helpful" to him to see this guy (who is now a friend, I guess). "Well, helpful, I don't know....I guess..." was his reply. For some reason I decided to open up a little and I told him I was now in counselling....H didn't say anything...just "Oh..." - he didn't seem hostile, more like he didn't know what to say as it didn't mean much to him one way or the other....but I think he was always like that....I don't think H has ever been much interested in me emotionally at all....he just wanted someone he could live with without too much trouble...in fact, when OS was 5 months old, he actuallly said this to me...we were having a candlelit supper before I went to the States to take OS back to meet his American family, and I jokingly asked H why he married me, thinking he would say something romantic - I was teasing him. He got very thoughtful and then said "Well, I guess I felt I wasn't so emotionally entangled with you that I couldn't live with you." It was the way he said it and the way he kind of gazed at me, like that was the real truth he had let slip out and he didn't think there was anything wrong with approaching life like that....it was so NOT like anything I had ever heard from anyone before that I was dumfounded...I didn't know what to say, I have forgotten what I did say, just that I tried to "lighten up" the mood, or explore it a little more in a light-hearted way, but letting it sink in that I thought I had heard him tell me he didn't really have any emotional feelings for me, certainly wasn't "in love" with me when he married me and that he married me because he thought I would "do", without being a lot of trouble to him. This was one of those times when I saw that "other person" come out...this is the person who has had the affairs, who refuses to engage with me, who is unpleasant and unfeeling towards me. It was like getting a peep under the shades...and seeing what H normally keeps hidden....

Those words put a tremendous doubt into my soul about our marriage. I don't know where they came from, or why, or whether he still feels that way. I confronted him with them after he had EA2, after EA2 was over, and I asked him again why he married me and why he would have said that...he said he didn't know, that that was a weird thing to say and that he guessed he married me because he loved me....he HAS shown love to me, so I guess the best I can say about my marriage is that his feelings for me seem to have been ambivalent. As to why that is, I don't know because he won't say. Although he projects a lot of his own faults on to me, in the past year, he seems to have "settled" a little, and he has also said that he doesn't believe it will ever get any better...that came about when I told him months ago that I was going to talk to a priest, and that I had been to a priest 2 years ago, when I first discovered EA3, and that the priest had told me that if I was single, he would recommend to me that I leave today, but since I had children, I should try to stay with it for as long as I could stand it for the sake of the children...this priest had a lot of experience in marital counselling and he said that he had to tell me that in the cases of repeat infidelity, it rarely ever got any better....I told H this was the advice I had received from this priest and I asked him what he thought about me having received this advice...he just said softly "I think he is probably right"...

So you see that H is living here with me having given up on being a faithful husband as well....also, he has acknowledged that he is to blame, and he doesn't believe he can change, or IT will change, mainly because he resists any discussion on marriage at all - in other words, he consciously refuses to turn his mind to improving himself or his marriage - he wants only to live and work....to carry on with his jobs and do the best he can at that, because that's all he's interested in anyway - that and his sons...

In the eyes of the Church, this is not a marriage...it is a living arrangement...it is not a marriage if the husband decides he can't be faithful....the DESIRE to be faithful, even if you fail at that, is an essential component of marriage, according to the Church....my H does not have that desire, and if he married me without making that commitment, in other words, if the words he uttered were hollow because he didn't really believe them, then we don't have a marriage...it seems to me that that is a possiblity, given those words that H said to me when OS was 5 months old....

So this is why I am confused...because I have been bounced around by his on/off feelings for me for the last 20 years. It is true that I have let this happen to me, which upsets me, but it is also true that I loved him and my promises were not hollow. The only alternative was to leave him, and I didn't think that was part of the deal when I got married.

I have to go now....just some thoughts. Thank you for listening....I am really grateful to you for being there. Now that I am in counselling, I feel supported emotionally here, and your support has helped me to get to that place. I am starting to deal with all this stuff in counselling as well....

LIR

Was hoping, but not going to get to it today.

May you get enough rest tonight.

SS

Update on SVB1 -
She D'vd her H, and moved back closer to her family. I believe she posted a little bit last spring. I don't know how much detail would be helpful - probably I will spend most of my time on your situation, instead of going into details about her.

She seemed to be adjusting well, except she had a difficult time wanting to date. I sent an email to a mutual friend last week asking about her, but have not gotten a reply.

Quote

I think your counselor must be helping, because you don't sound so worried as you did even a few months ago. There is a calm feeling I get from reading that wasn't there for a long time. I think it is helping you cope from day to day to know you have someone to talk to that understand you, and that you know is safe. Safety is important.

Yes, I think so. She asked me what my priorities were right now and I said safety was the most important thing. Why it is I feel safest not separating from him, I don't know, maybe it has something to do with not rocking the boat, but maybe it could be that he is not involved with anyone right now (that's my feeling anyway) so he is feeling more "normal". I also think that OS growing up and getting bigger and weightier than him is changing the dynamic in the house - H is not ALWAYS a bad father - I've always said that - it is really like he is two people - a decent one and a selfish, stressed-out one, and when the selfish one is dominant, things get stressy with him making an issue over small things and getting authoritative and antagonizing everyone around him. My sister said something the other day, that a counselor told her that when someone has been severely bullied, they often acquire a behaviour of provoking people into confrontation - it is the way they can be in control of WHEN the confrontation occurs - because one aspect of bullying is that it is out of the control of the victim and can happen anytime, so the victim develops this strong psychological reaction which is to provoke confrontation rather than to wait for it to happen - they expect to be bullied, so they would rather be in control of the conflict by creating it themselves. Weird to me, because I wasn't bullied as a child, but it makes a certain weird sense - and it could be what is going on with my H - I never thought of that before.

You say I sound calmer. I wonder how you can tell...........

I was going to cut much of that out, but...... I think I want to comment on most of it, so I'll leave it all.

First - why you seem to be more calm.
I mentioned SVB1 because I could often pick up things about her that she felt were true, but I didn't always have reasons for saying them. Sometimes things just kind of come to me, so I say them. I think my mind figures things out in the background, and I have come to trust in the "intuition" or whatever you want to call it. When I go back and try to understand why I believe you are calm, some reasons show themselves, but I had not examined it in detail before I said it. I just felt it.

These are some of the reasons I believe I felt you were more calm. (YOU may or may not feel that you really are more calm, but these are part of the reason I think I felt to say it.) I also want to go on record as saying that It's usually not a good idea to reveal just how and why I think of things, because subconsciously you will probably adjust what you write and the way you write it after I do this. At least SVB1 did adjust - but she didn't realize it.

Now - back to the subject matter.

You are not writing as many of your feelings down since you have started going to the counselor. This could be because you are sharing them with her, and no longer feel a need to discuss them elsewhere, or it could be because you are working through them with her, and things that used to upset you don't upset you as much. I thought it to be the latter - so I said you seemed more calm. There are a lot more factors that contribute, many small cues, and I won't take the time to identify them all here. It's in the way you say things, the words you use, the topics you choose, the frequency you write..... lots of things. It feels odd to talk about it, but you asked, so I am trying to be honest.

I believe you were worried about going and expressing your feelings. I think it held you back for a long time, even though you knew rationally you would be safe, emotionally you had been hurt so badly, that you didn't want to put your thoughts and feelings out in front of someone just to have them stomped on again.

I may be off, you should tell me if you feel that I am. You are very kind, and I know you would say it as nicely as you could, but be truthful (grin.)

Again, I don't spend time going over these kinds of things in my mind before I write it. It just comes out of my subconscious thought processes, and I type it out as it comes. I don't want you to think I spend a lot of time analyzing you, because I don't really. I do think of what I ought to write, and how I might be able to help. I do pray for you, and your family often. I do think of you as a fellow traveler on this earth, one who is doing quite well in many ways, and needs to know it.
It's hard to get perspective sometimes, so I hope to help with that. I guess I also believe that we won't be able to take most things with us when we leave this mortal life, but we can take our friendships, and our relationships. I believe that's where our treasure is, and where it will be.

Now, about your H's behavior, and being bullied -
I think all that you have said is true, or may be true. There may be environmental reasons for many of his behaviors.

HOWEVER -
All of us have to make the choice to remain as we are, or to improve. People can change, if they want to change. We can resist evil, and seek good. This applies to our behavior as well as our environment. If we try to change, if we read good books, if we study good things, and if we continue to pray and ask God for help, we do change, and we do improve. God takes out the dross, and we are purified as silver and gold.

All of us must make the choice of who we will follow. All of us are making it. It is not my place to judge your H, for I see much of myself in him, and I know I have been given the chance to repent. I continue to hope he will take the chance that God extends to all of us. If he does not choose God, and his Kingdom, it will in the end, matter very little what else he has chosen.

If we were discussing someone who lived half way around the world from you, you could ignore it when we were done, and go back to normal life. Since it is your H, you must choose each day how you will cope with his choices, by making your own. You do well to seek the face of God, for he knows things we do not know, and he can help you make correct decisions.



I'm not sure I feel calmer overall, but it is true that I have felt moments of calm in my counseling, and it is these moments I have noticed. In my counselling, I am trying to look at how I feel when I talk - what makes me upset, sad, and also what generates calm. It made me feel calm when my counselor told me we could take all the time it needed to take to try to untangle all the different threads I have bound up inside myself.

Often I hesitate to comment, not because I don't have an opinion, but because it's just that. It's my opinion. I don't claim to have a pool of facts that others don't have, nor do I claim to always be right. It's just hard to NOT comment, so I do. (another grin.)
I believe you were worried about talking to someone, but after visiting with her a few times, you trust her to actually help, and it brought some relief. I think you have mixed feelings posting to me. Not on the outside, but deep down inside, and it may not be in your conscience thoughts. I think that is healthy -
After all, I am a strange man you met on the internet. (LOL)
It makes a good joke, but it's the truth too.
Of course, she has training that we on MB do not have, and I believe you will get a lot of help there. I am so glad you are talking to her.

I sometimes get this feeling of immense calm when I pray, and it's that that I wait for. One of the things that bothers me is that back in 2003, when I prayed for help to decide what to do about H, during Mass, and during Communion, I had that feeling - it came and possessed me just for a few moments and it said "separate yourself from him". Just that. It wasn't what I wanted to hear. I have been totally committed to my marriage. But that has made me doubt and now I wonder if I am going against God by trying to stay.

I could say a lot of things in response to this.

I could say:
"Well, you did separate yourself, you are not sleeping with him, or following after him."
or
"So why didn't you do it? Why are you still married to him."

These and other variations on these two, it could be debated that you did, or did not follow the inspiration you received.

I can think of two times when strong impressions (as what you related) came to me as this one did to you. I don't feel to relate them here and now, but the first time, I ignored the prompting, and the second time I followed it. It became very clear (in the 2nd case) that it was from God, and it had a wonderful outcome. I still don't know what would have happened if I had followed the first one.

Maybe I will tell a little about the first one, since it is not so personal in nature.

I was in Canada, on the great plains traveling down a long straight highway. There was a huge thunderhead out in front of us, we could see it building, and we could see the lightning flash from time to time. It was mid day, but still partly dark, as it sometimes is in a storm. Because of the darkness before us, I could see the flashing lights from a long way off. I didn't think much of it at first - the Royal Canadian Mounted Police often stop people for traffic violations.

As we got closer, I could see it was the scent of an accident. It looked a rollover involving a single car. The police were there, and an ambulance. They were loading someone from the damaged vehicle into the ambulance. I felt a strong impression "you need to stop."
I drove on, and it came again as we passed the scene, and again as we were beyond it. I was young then, and not so used to these things. I never did stop, but kept going.

I told myself that there was nothing I could have done, and I went over it again and again. It made no sense to me at all that I should stop. OF course, (as I look back from many l years later) there are many things that it could have been.
It could have been someone from my home town, that needed me to notify their family. It could have been lots of things, and I suppose someday, I will understand. I wish now I would have stopped then, but I can't go back.

The next incident happened just a few weeks later, and by then I had made the decision that I would not ignore that kind of feeling again. I really don't want to tell it on a public forum, but it turned out for good.

If you don't know what God meant for you to do when he told you that day, you can find out. He continues to honor the promise he made many years ago when he said "seek, and ye shall find, ask, and it shall be given to you."

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When you understand that the Atonement is real, you begin to discover great healing power.

Expand, please...-)

Were my W and I to visit your home, I think we could spend a number of hours on this one alone. How do I put all of this into words? It's the product of what I have learned through prayer, and meditation over the course of my life. I could tell you stories, and I could quote many other scriptures - but lets see if we can reduce it down some. I am going to quote from memory, and I can't remember chapter and verse, so forgive me, but I don't have the time for that now. I think they will be familiar to you anyway, even if I don't get them word for word.

Ok, I changed my mind already - I want to quote from Isaiah, and I know I can't remember it all.
From Isaiah 53
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

And also, some of the other ones, from memory.
"Come unto me all ye that labor, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
"My yoke is easy, and my burden is light"
"In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have over come the world."

There are many more, but read these again. Think of the words that were used, and pause for feelings that come to you. Listen with your heart, and your spiritual sense, and tell me what you feel.

After many years of prayer, and much thought, I have come to believe that the atonement did more than more than take away the sin of those who accept him as their savior.

I don't claim to understand why exactly it was necessary. I do know that it happened, and that it is real. I believe he also experienced all of the things that any of us will experience, an that he understands, and is able to help because he has been there, and there is nothing that we can go through that he hasn't already been through, and experienced. and conquered. I believe he does understand, and I know he has that power to help, for I have experienced that help for myself.


Well, I have always felt that Jesus was right there with me, like he was sitting on the bed next to me with an arm around my shoulders. I think I feel a little braver - just a little. Partly I think

I believe he is much more involved in our lives than we sometimes think. I believe he intercedes directly when it is best, but that he often uses others to help us, because it is good for us to help, and be helped.

Ah, so much more to say, but I need to go for now.
I hope you are feeling well today.

SS