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Hi journeyer Sorry you're struggling. My Doc gave me Cipramil which sent me into cold sweats and paic attacks so I cold turkeyed them. What helped me manage the stress was a combination of working out and loving detachment. I was working out a situation with a friend the other day and it occurred to me FINALLY how to describe "loving detachment" in a practically applicable way. In my own affair-battle, and in plan A , loving detachment was without doubt the technique that helped the most to get through the very bad times. It allowed me breathing space to be rational when faced with irrationality. I have advised for panicking folks in the heat of this fight to "detach" but I always struggled to INSTRUCT them how to do it. Well, a day late and a dollar short, but here goes - in case it helps anyone: However vicious or entitled a persons actions may be towards us, and however dark a situation may appear, it is a stark realisation that it is OURSELVES who render events with the power to frighten or hurt outselves. Some folks who tried to adopt loving detachment tried to IGNORE evil purpetrated in their lives and respond with a false rictus smile to the person who is hurting them. That is not what loving detachment is for me and I chide myself for not being able to explain sooner. Loving detachment was a way I found to strip away the scariness I attributed to events and look only at the core elements of these events. I'll start with a non infidelity example : A banana skin skids to a halt at your feet, when you are rushing and feeling low, and you barely miss slipping on it. Things you might think while in an emotional state: "I could have slipped on that ! GOD I might have broken my neck ! I Bet my spouse threw that there to kill me for my insurance ? What if there are more banana skins ? OH NO, I have to LIVE in a workd of banana skins for ever boo hoo hoo !" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> What loving detachment thinks : "A banana skin. I need to step around that so I don't slip. Stay vigilant in case of further banana skins as I can only control my OWN placement of banana skins, not other people's." See ? It doesn't matter if a person tried to sabotage you with that banana skin,OR if it was dropped accidentally by a passing flying monkey, the core challenge, and correct response is identical once you strip away all the layers of portent you ascribe to an event !. When Squid would attend karate competitions that I suspcted OM may be at, against my direct request a wellsping of panic and fear surged within me. " She'll be kissing him ! Maybe they're not even at a karate event! Perhaps they've left to elope !" Then I shouted "Stop! Detach! " to myself. Facts : 1. Squid went to referee a weekend competition against my request less than a month after d-day. The only thing I know for sure is she won't be home over Saturday night. No need to panic. 2. Even if she *IS* PA'ing with OM, it does not change our situation.I Expect her to be wayward at this time. I am not "more cuckolded" by this ,if so. No need to panic. 3. I know there IS a competition at the time / place she says and that she is sharing a room with a trustworthy mutual friend. GOOD reason not to panic. 4. How can I affect this in future ? Well, exposing to OM GF may apply a compulsion to OM not to attend these events. I should expose. Panic doesn't help 5. The weekend without soaking up Squids poison gives me a respite ! I will take the kids to a childrens'petting farm ! Loving detachment is DELIBERATELY stripping away assumed portent from events and facts to allow calm consideration as to whether you can affect a situation positively or not. It is not ignoring, it is not soaking up, it is not tolerating. It is revealing and dealing with the FACTS as practially as possible. Another real example : Event : Squid is highly entitled and is bullying me in her affair pomp, in the second whole week after NC established. She is making no effort to be transparent nor to work on our marriage. Highly dismissive, vituperative. I am terrified, the kids are being hurt. WHOAH Bob !!! LOVING DETACHMENT MODE PLEASE :What would I do if I were not afraid ? - I'd tell Squid that I would rather live without her than WITH her this mean and disrespectful What am I afraid of ? - That this is the best Squid can ever give me and that she would leave if I enforced a boundary requiring more SO this is a dignity issue. Best case is that I get my baby AND my dignity. Whats the best compromise ? - That I keep my dignity and lose my baby. So, loving detachment, what are the FACTS to consider ? 1. She could leave ANY time she wanted with or without my protecting my dignity 2. If she left as a result of having to respect minimum boundaries, I am only worse off if I value that toxic corruption of a marriage more than my own dignity. 3. If she leaves I will be healthy,have the support of my employer and my kids and we will be fine, after a time of sadness. It is highly unlikely that we will be broken by this. 4. If she stays and respects my boundaries we may all just "win the lottery" !. Decision - restate my boundary to Squid. Lovng Detachment released me from the chains of fear. That night I asked Squid my famous question :" baby WHY are you here ? You said you would stay and work on our marriage - and I am struggling to see anything I would call "marriagebuilding" from you right now. I want you , very much, but I do not need you. Do not stay only because you think I will fall apart if you leave. I will not. The door on this marriage is open - you can leave any time, as can I. Just know that I will not tolerate perceived disrespect for long before I protect myself from it." Squid flipped a switch that night like so many WS do. Even when I make a bad decision using the facts loving detachment presented me, I could simply apply LD to the NEW situation and make a new decision in light of my experience. Does any of this make any sense ? I hope it helps. Bulletproof_m's thread has a good discussion of this and now he has a grasp of LD and how to apply it, just READ how much calmer he is. If I can help explain loving detachment better, just let me know. Finally, just taking the whip hand in this mess helped me to feel more composed. Exposing did that. You must expose to somebody whose opinion of him OM respects. How can it make your situation worse than it is now ? There IS no worse than it is now. Recovery your dignity through LD and exposure, and start to save your marriage as a by-product. All blessings.
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All,
I know I need to expose, and though you may think I am avoiding it, procrastinating, I am not. I think I know who it is, but I am now confused by a couple things. One is that she is getting a lot of calls on her cell phone from a co-worker, but not the one I suspected.
She is starting to get very careless, so I think I may be able to nail this down real soon without hiring the PI. I got a quote on that from 2 different PI agencies and from what I told them, they are figuring it's going to cost me from $800 - $1200 to get hard evidence. I don't really have that kind of cash laying around, if I did, I wouldn't hesitate.
But, she has done 2 stupid things the last few days, maybe. First of all, she stayed gone all night Saturday night and the GPS logger was in her car. From what I can tell on Google Earth, it was either parked in a business parking lot here in town, or in someones back yard. It is clearly right on the fence line between the 2 so I can't really tell, but when she disappears Saturday night again, I will wait until the morning hours and go to see if she is there and which side of the fence she is on. If it's in the private residences fenced in yard, well, I think we have the OM identity. If not, who the ****** knows, just another parking spot where he picks her up.
The 2nd thing she is doing is text messaging him on our computer. Bad F'in move. I'm installing a hidden software key logger on there tonight. She has to type in his phone number and the messsge to send the text, and the logger will capture it, I already tested it. This could be the very thing that will expose this.
She told me today, it is a woman. More of her smart-[censored] crap, it's not a woman, I know better than that drivel. She thinks this is funny. Wait until she leaves and gives up our home and everything and OM dumps her [censored], we'll see how her sense of humor is holding up then.
Here's just something else I'll add. Not really relevant to the M, but she has freakin pneumonia again for the 2nd time in a little over a month, plus a urinary tract infection, both of which she's taking strong antibiotics for, and has had 3 severe debilitating migraines in the last week. IMHO, this is what happens when a 46 yr. old woman tries to live like a teen. She says all of this is my fault, I am making her stressed out and therefore she is so sick.
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Journeyer, Hey, I hope you feel honored. Although I've been lurking here for a couple of weeks, I finally registered this morning, just so I could reply to YOU! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am a 47 year old guy 6 weeks into a "Plan A" myself, after catching my wife having an EA/PA with a 29 year old guy that trains her at her gym. I'll put up my own thread soon, but I wanted to answer your question about MEDS. I looked into them after reading Dr. Harley recommends them, and after having several panic attacks myself. In fact, the day that I personally witnessed my wife drive her car, meet OM in a department store parking lot, and drive off with him, I had a panic attack so bad that I could barely catch my breath and drive my car to follow them. My doctor also prescribed two different things. One -- Fluoxetine -- is long-term, and they said it would take "2-3 weeks" to work. Now maybe it's the placebo effect, but I swear that I could feel the difference in about a week to 10 days. I used to have a lot of crying jags, sometimes just heaving, anguished sobs, which could be triggered by a certain song or just by thinking about my situation. This really helped with that, and although my eyes still water up sometimes, I haven't sobbed in over 2 weeks. The other -- Alprazolam -- is for the panic attacks themselves, I'm supposed to take 1/2 to 1 tablet when I get one. I've only tried it once -- with a half a tablet -- and it worked very well, although, like someone else said, it made me very sleepy. I can only imagine what a FULL tablet would do! I do wish you blessings and success on your journey. I know now what everyone says, that "this will be the hardest thing you've ever done in your entire life." But I also feel that God hasn't given me anything that I haven't been able to handle (altho sometimes, just barely!) and has, each day, equipped me with the tools, and the people in my life, necessary to get THAT DAY'S job done. So I am grateful. -- Chocolateeyes
"Still at the end of every hard-earned day, people find some reason to believe." (Bruce Springsteen)
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journeyer,
How are things going?
HWW
D-Day: 3/25/07
Me BS: 47 SAHD
WW: 46 EA PA (filed for divorce 5/30/07)
2 DD and 1 DS 15, 13, 13 (twins)
MOM: W's xboss (filed for 2nd marriage divorce 5/30/07, fired 6/29/07)
OMW: Knows (recovering from cancer)
Divorced April 2008 and happy
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Chocolateeyes,
I am indeed honored. Anytime one prompts a lurker to start posting, they must be doing something right. You will get a lot of great advice around here, so keep posting and get your own thread started if you haven't already done so. I wish I would have found this site sooner. My M is pretty far gone at this time, but I still hold on to some hope. I am sorry you are going through this also, no one should have to. I had to stop taking my short term med during the day because it just makes me too sleepy. But in the evening if the WW is doing something that really sets me off, like I think she is going on a little hiatus with OM, I take one of those and I get calm as can be, works wonders. We need to stay calm during these times and if it takes meds to do so, the so be it. Better than going into a panic and doing something really stupid and damaging. My WW has been noticeably nicer to me the last few days, and I believe it is due to the fact that the meds have calmed me down so much, I just do not react to her vile provocations.
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Journey,
My mom actually had a good line for me to say to my W (we had an argument, I told her she'd been "acting crazy" lately -- OK, major love-buster, but hey, I'm human) and she said "At least I'M not the one on MEDICATION!"
My mom said I should have said "Well, I NEED those, to be able to deal with YOU!"
LOL.
Just as everything ABOUT this has been so counterintuitive, I've learned to distrust -- and even dread -- my wife's GOOD moods, as strange as that sounds. Because I've learned that that usually means things are going well in Affair Land. And when she's a total BEOTCH to me, or all depressed, then that's GOOD!
Good lord, this is so strange . . .
Choc.
"Still at the end of every hard-earned day, people find some reason to believe." (Bruce Springsteen)
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Choc, My WW does not know I am taking the meds, and she's not going to know. She would react like your WW. It's nonsense, let them go through this crap and see how fast they are reaching for some better living through chemistry. This is the first time I have EVER taken prescription meds. I do not expect to need them long term. Just as everything ABOUT this has been so counterintuitive, I've learned to distrust -- and even dread -- my wife's GOOD moods, as strange as that sounds. Because I've learned that that usually means things are going well in Affair Land. And when she's a total BEOTCH to me, or all depressed, then that's GOOD! Yep. If they are too nice but still in the A, that's not good, but occasional nice mixed with ****** means they are still not sure which way to go, so there is still hope. Mine bounces back and forth, so her A is a bumpy ride, not all wonderful like she swears it is. If the A starts to fall apart, your WW will likely go into a depression and be a complete and total BIIAATCH for a while. Rather mine do that than keep up the A. I got my meds to get me through the super biatch period.
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HWW, hard to tell. No real progress. My new meds are keeping me calmer, so we stopped fighting as much at least. How's it going with you?
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Ok, I have a confession to make. I have been an avid blogger / forum poster for many years. Anyways,I kind of really connected with someone on another forum that is totally unrelated to marital issues and we started to pm each other on the forum quite a bit and I discovered that she is in a very similar situation as mine. Her husband has been having multiple affairs for years and they are now kind of living separate lives in the same house like my wife and I, although her husband is now in NC with the other women. We also started emailing and IMing a lot, mostly discussing our marital problems. Don't get me wrong here, our discussions have never turned inappropriate at all, but we recently exchanged photos, and unexpectedly find that we are quite attracted to one another. I am so lonely and so attracted to this person in so many ways that I am really scared this could turn into something more than friendship, although neither of us has said anything to infer it. I spend a lot of time IMing with her on Sat. night while my wife is gone and I don't want to give that up, but I don't want to do anything wrong. Does anyone have advice about this? I don't think I should have to give up a friend, but my attraction to her and current vulnerability scares me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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Yes I have advice.
NC for ever with this woman.
You are vulnerable. My temptation was a girl at my gym.
I changed gyms.
MB Alumni
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Journeyer,
I think you already know the answer to that.
And "I shouldn't have to give up a friend" is -- word-for-word -- what MY WIFE said to me after I caught her in a then-EA.
'nuff said. I understand your pain, BELIEVE me I do. I hadn't been with my wife in THREE YEARS before D-day mid-May, and we only ML 2x in the past FIVE years. So I know all about "lonely." But an EA (and you are headed there, rapidly), will only make your life WORSE, not better.
Choc.
Choc.
"Still at the end of every hard-earned day, people find some reason to believe." (Bruce Springsteen)
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HWW, hard to tell. No real progress. My new meds are keeping me calmer, so we stopped fighting as much at least. How's it going with you? Not well, thanks for asking. I'm moving on. I'm sticking with Plan A, but I've taken my wedding ring off and I'm working harder on things with my attorney. I want to get to separation sooner rather than later. It's just too painful. HWW
D-Day: 3/25/07
Me BS: 47 SAHD
WW: 46 EA PA (filed for divorce 5/30/07)
2 DD and 1 DS 15, 13, 13 (twins)
MOM: W's xboss (filed for 2nd marriage divorce 5/30/07, fired 6/29/07)
OMW: Knows (recovering from cancer)
Divorced April 2008 and happy
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WTF
*** Warning *** Make sure brain is engaged before shifting mouth out of Neutral.
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Bob, Choc, WTF,
We are not having an EA, really. Not even close to it. Also, she is 600 miles away. We just really connect on some things. I am having a hard time with the thought of NC with her. But I respect your advice and am seriously considering it. If anything changes, I will not lie, I came here for help and to get help one has to be honest.
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Journeyer.
If you trust me at all trust this : you're talking deluded cr[i][/i]ap. The very fact that you're struggling to imagine NC with her shows that you're fast developing an EA. I have seen TENS of people in your sit. They all deny an EA, then they don't see why they should give up their "friend". Its indistinguishable from Fog babble.
BS are so starved of sugar and EN meeting that we are incredibly vulnerable for a while after d-day.
You have to recognize your weaknesses and protect against them.
You , like all insulted BS are very vulnerable to an affair.
You wouldn't BELIEVE how many affairs here started as IM sessions.
NC. Now. For ever.
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HWW,
I hear you man. I'm totally frustrated with my WW. I don't pay any attention to her at all now. I go about my business. When she talks to me, I am cordial but brief. She has ask me several times now what is wrong with me, am I ok? I tell her I'm great and go back to whatever I'm doing. Like you, I couldn't bear the pain any longer, I'm moving on. She's psycho bi-polar. Here's a little dramatization from night before last:
Prelude to scene: my wife does not work on Wednesday, and we only have one alarm clock so I take it in the guest bedroom / computer room where I sleep on Tues. night so I will be sure to wake up. It's Wednesday night and I am going through our bedroom(now her bedroom she says) to the master bath, when her queen highness decides it necessary to speak to my lowly presence:
Her: I need the alarm clock.
Me: Ok, I'll get it for you( I bring it in and decide to be nice and plug it in and set it for her.
Her: What the F are you doing?
Me: Plugging in the clock for you.
Her: It doesn't plug in over there, what's wrong with you, you're stupid, can't you do anything right!?
Me: It's always been plugged in over here. I just unplugged it from there(been plugged in the same receptacle for 6 years now)
Her: #$@*, just leave it alone, I'll do it, you loser, you can't do anything right, f'in G#@#@!!
Me: (sit clock down and go into bathroom to get ready for bed, leave door open and watch her through mirror try to plug clock in where she says it plugs in. Even with the clock on the very edge of dresser it likes at least a foot reaching that receptacle.)
Her: (confused look, then angry. Plugs clock in where I told her it goes, goes to bed with [censored] look on face)
Me: (go back to computer room and go to bed)
I have had it with this CRAP! HAD IT! HAD IT! HAD IT!
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Journeyer,
As soon as she said "What the F are you doing?" you should have calmly replied "Well, I WAS trying to be nice and plug this in for you, but I don't appreciate the attitude, and I REALLY don't appreciate the F-bomb. That's very disrespectful."
And walked out, leaving it for her to do.
Don't jump into her pool of chit. Stay out on the deck, with a confident smile on your face, and go play with your own pool toys. Easier said than done, I know, cuz I'm going thru this now too, but it IS the better way to handle it.
Choc.
"Still at the end of every hard-earned day, people find some reason to believe." (Bruce Springsteen)
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Journeyer.
1) protect your finances. Now.
2) work out how you would plan B. Identify potential intermediaries etc.
3) Tell your W that you have do not have limitless patience to wait for yoru W to recommit to your M or not, and she should be making her min dup about now. Also that while you want her back, you don't NEED her back, so she shouldn't stay for fear of you being broken by her departure. Staying disrespectfully is far worse than her leaving.
Don't kick her out, just tell her this. That you have no intention of living like this for very long.
You need to protect what dwindling love you have left for her right now, else YOU will become the biggest threat to your marriage, not your WW.
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BobPure is right on my man....
Get your self respect back man. When she starts that crap again (verbal abuse) drop that damn clock and leave the room without saying a word.
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