WHAT!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

OMG, Lemonman, what do you call those sour posts and replys, if not 2x4's???
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You are way too modest!!!

I’m totally against 2 x 4’s that goes together with personal attacks, hostility, name calling, DJ’s, nastiness, sarcasm, attempts to make a person feel degraded, worthless etc. This type of 2 x 4’s serves no purpose IMO. I received a few of those and it meant nothing to me or served any positive purpose for me at all…in fact, it made me react with hostility, nastiness, sarcasm etc. in kind and those are traits I find despicable in myself or anyone else and therefore I try to avoid it at all costs. I never handed out “nasty” 2 x 4’s myself, but in cases where I was treated with hostility, disrespect etc. I reacted in kind…and as I've said, I hate those behavior in myself.

I’m in favor of 2 x 4’s that (as explained by Jen) are given from the depths of people's love and caring and in spite of "hard" words, still treats the person with dignity and respect e.g. those that attack the behavior not the person. I received some of those ones too and those were the ones that impacted me positively and made me think. I did hand out some of those 2 x 4’s occasionally myself.

hun, if I didn't luv ya wouln't waste my time kickin you in the tail...

Well I ahve had my share of thumpin's mainly Orchid, Dog, and Believer... Everyone one in retrospect was deserved and needed...

A "TRUE FRIEND" dpons't tell you what you want to hear, they tell you what you need to hear...


Jim

IMO someone can practice “tough love” and tell a person what he/she needs to hear without being hostile, nasty, sarcastic and disrespectful. Also, a person who really cares (a “true friend”) IMO will not make personal attacks, call the person names and attempt to make that person feel degraded, worthless etc. when delivering the needed 2 x 4's.

I generial I would agree that a firm guiding hand is perfered, However somtimes a swift kick in the A$$ is required as well...

I know Orchid and Dog have deliverd severial well timed Kicks to my A$$ and I needed every darn one and in hindsight, I am thankful I had freinds who careed enough to do it.

Jim

Suzet said:



and then:


Very well said Suzet, there is a big difference between the 2X4 of kindness and the 2X4 of disrespect. I see the latter dished out more often to wayward spouses who first arrive in these forums. They are typically blasted by both types of 2X4s because they “just don’t get it”. For the few who make it through the whipping post, they are rewarded with great marriage insights and reclaim their humanity. Most of them save their marriages but alas not all do. For those waywards that reject the “2X4 method”, they post maybe 20 times and then disappear. I’ve always looked at those folks as “opportunities missed”.

As for myself, I’ve never been given the proverbial 2X4 by anyone here, not even once. I was a blank canvas when I arrived. I had thought I knew everything but once d-day arrived I accepted the truth I was indeed very, very ignorant. I was treated with great kindness and empathy by most everyone here, the few exceptions being related to advice I might have given to others. All of the kind wisdom and counsel that I received was readily accepted by me, as the logic of the truth I was reading was irrefutable. Thus my marriage was not only saved but indeed made richer, just like you promised it would be.

As for my wayward wife, she posted only a few times and there were 2X4s for her even though she had acknowledged what she caused. Her mantra was, “You’re the good guy and I’m the bad guy”. She really never needed anyone else to tell her that, so she didn’t stick around these parts. The funny thing is that while I hurt the worst, she has hurt the longest and hurts still. I almost fear that she will take her betrayal to the grave. Don’t get me wrong, it is not a debilitating “hurt” as like I said, our marriage is deeper than it has ever been. It is more like she occasionally peers into the “looking glass” and sees that she was once “the bad guy”.

I’m not a big fan of 2X4 method although I fully support Jen’s “unvarnished truth”.

Mr. G

Well, then maybe it depends from person to person. Not everyone feel and react the same. I’m just not the type of person who is or will ever be positively effected by a “kick in the A$$”. It never has and will never work on me. I only react positively on a “firm guiding hand” or “tough love” delivered with respect, love and care.

Orchid,

By your definition.....I've both recieved 2x4s and administered them. But I'm not sure our definitions are the same, because I don't think 2x4s are a postive thing....despite the occasional good results. Abuse is effective too.....doesn't mean it's a good thing. I'm not an "ends justifies the means" kinda gal. But I'm not a bleeding heart either. I believe good coaching (even the amateur kind) requires a good balance between hard and soft styles/approaches....but I don't believe verbal "beatings" have a role in that. What you gave as examples....I call hard truths and radical honesty....good coaching. I call those a "direct approach" and I have an inordinate amount of respect for people like you and JL who deliver it with grace and no nonsense.

2x4s <to me> are something different. They are the equivalent of bashing somebody with words instead of wood. And the purpose is the same....to harm. That's my definition. The metaphor is very graphic and appropriate for what sometimes happens here and I don't think it's all about "helping" people either. The opposite of "gentle" in this case, is sometimes "brutal", and I think hard truth and radical honesty can be delivered with strength, assertiveness, no nonense....but without brutality. The truth is sometimes painful and MB will not be effective without it, but passionate and meaningful speech doesn't have to brutal to be effective and incredibly motivating.

Civility doesn't exclude passionate and forceful speech. Listen to the speeches of Winston Churchill, the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., John F. Kennedy. Passion comes from within, from a broad understanding of the power of language, from a willingness to speak directly to people's reason and emotions. Forcefulness comes from asserting one's position in strong, active terms not merely the most profane, volatile, or insulting.

I often hear the MB 2x4s equated with "tough love"....and I think....what a crock!! What's love got to do with it? This isn't our sons and daughters....these are strangers. While there may be a few folks here who know eachother well enough to "love" eachother and have earned each other's trust.....tough love <without the love> is often just meaness. Posters here don't love everybody who walks in. New posters get 2x4s all the time....and nobody loves them.

The other thing I often hear are folks stepping up with testimonials about how MB 2x4s helped wake them up....and I think a "direct/no nonsense approach" certainly DID help many of them....I just don't think those are the same thing. And that still doesn't explain the lumber yard used to beat down people who just have different opinions. They aren't being helped....they are just being silenced, drowned out, beaten down.

There is a MASSIVE difference between the examples you gave (Orchid: Let us know when you want us to help you.
Do you really want to continue living with a WS? ) and the viciousness used to insult, denigrate and humiliate people that I associate with the REAL 2x4s. Anyone, including ME would agree with the mild examples you chose....IF that were really an MB 2x4....but I just call that good honest coaching for the purpose of helping people.



We must be living on different planets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I have the utmost respect and admiration for you....but I disagree entirely with this statement. I don't see posts with the intent to hurt from YOU....but I am sick to death of what's called the MB 2x4 or "style" used as justification for pure nastiness. Sorry, but I've seen brute squads verbally beat people to a bloody pulp. I have often seen posts with the <intent to hurt>, and I have been on the recieving end of them many times. I used to believe in the motivation behind what everyone posted was to help....but I no longer do. It is obvious to me that people have other agendas besides "helping".

This poll will always be "skewed" because the folks who remain here are tough enough to withstand the many barbs and bruises it takes to post here. And nobody is safe....no matter how long you've been here.

Thank you for this thread, Orchid. Suzet and star*fish said it so much better than I ever could.

The posts I've received from you encourage me to look at things differently and motivate me to continue in strength.

Name calling and insinuations that I am not worthy just pi$$ me off and I dig my heels in. Yes, it is my choice to view them that way.

SL said you were more of a motivational speaker. I AGREE with that assessment. I get kindness and caring from your posts....so I am more likely to listen to what you have to say.

When I feel attacked, I attack back and completely miss (or purposely ignore) the message that may be held within that attack. Again, my choice.

Can I chose to see them as attacks? Yes, I can. And I do.

Thanks again Orchid, suzet, and star*fish.

I think KiwiJ, Suzet, and Mr. Goodstuff summed it up nicely.

On my first thread 6 months ago ("Is time the only answer to re-building trust?") a poster was curious why I would ask that question when I obviously already knew the answer.

I had been lurking for a few weeks and before I registered, and I thought I had carefully worded my title to ensure it reflected what I really wanted to know. But that response ALMOST made me feel like I should delete the entire thread and lurk some more to re-word my question.

I guess I qualify as one of the 'tough ones' Star*fish is referring to b/c I re-read the two posts I'd already gotten and responded that "Artor had said this and Just-Keep-Goin had said that and I'm hoping to learn more.....did I satisfy your curiousity?"

And Pep said "Yep". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I stuck around and within my first week, I tried to help another newbie but was informed that I had mis-read Weaver's and WAT's and Bob P's posts on exposure to OPS. She said I should expose to the betrayed wife.......it was a little confusing b/c she thought I was a guy....but we eventually got things straightened out. (And I accidently called her Melodyland in the beginning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

We exposed to OWH and began re-building trust immediately.

Were those 2x4's? Coaching? Whatever you call them, they were extremely helpful because they made me think....

...and then ask...

...and then act.

Thanks,
Ace

I think that it depends on the way the 2x4 is delivered.

I place a lot of value on "bottom line up front" BLUF speech.

I think that there ARE times when that blunt speech is called for. Sometimes you do need to tell a poster that they're being their own worst enemy at the moment.

But...and this is a BIG but...

There is a major difference between pointing out someone's mistake or ill behavior, and attacking them. How the 2x4 is delivered is at least as important as what's said. If you ATTACK the poster...if you use offensive language, phrases, etc...no matter how justified you feel that they are...you're only venting your own anger. You're not helping the poster. Most people will shut down...they'll go on the defensive, they'll start defending themselves against the attack, and that hardens them against receiving the good advice that often goes along with it. The only message they get out of it was the attack...not the advice.

If you can deliver the 2x4 while still showing the poster that you truly are trying to help, that you care about trying to help them...they'll take that message a lot more readily than if they feel that you're trying to shame them or hurt them into taking your advice.

I thought MrW said it well once, which is why I've had it in my signature ever since...

Nicely said by Ms. Star-fish.

Mr. G

I don't know how I missed starfish's reponse... totally awesome!! I couldn't agree more.

There's a semantics argument in here somewhere.

And I agree that the delivery style can make a big difference in how the 2x4 is received, especially given that this text forum is flat. There is no inflection, so we supply our own. It's really easy to misinterpret the intent of posts.

Having said that (and to paraphrase the Mama Bee),

Yes, I have received them.
No, they did not feel good.
Yes, they helped me.
Yes, I am happy that someone around here cared enough about me to apply them.

Why does there seem to be such a common theme that people can only learn when it is beaten into them? I personally don't agree with that.

Just the term 2x4 implies that you are going to get hit.

You're right maybe it is just semantics.....

I think it's semantics, but there is a spectrum. Sometimes it's gentle coaching, sometimes it's the between-the-eyes wake-up call. But then, sometimes coaching is what's called for, and sometimes it's the real wake-up call that's needed. Personally, I tend to lump all of that into the term "2x4." In my experience (more limited than others, to be sure) and aside from some of the petty squabbles around here, they are delivered out of a sense of caring and wanting to help, and I certainly appreciate that.

sdguy,

I agree that much of my argument revolves around semantics, and that's because like so many terms....there is more than one meaning. What Orchid describes as a 2x4....is something I can embrace fully....she's talking about radical honesty with a caring purpose. However, the wide range of approaches I witness on this forum ALSO being called MB 2x4s (and justification for bullying)....are NOT something I think are all "worth" the harm they do, nor are they always motivated by a desire to "help".

Because I've said I don't agree with <all/every> description of the MB 2x4....there will be (and have been) people who assume or even accuse me of wanting people coddled and patronized. It's a straw man argument. I'm not saying that at all....and I don't shield people from the reality of their poor choices, enable them or protect them from the consequences that will ensue. I don't mince my words....but I do CHOOSE them with care because my purpose is to empower people while they struggle along this path....on either side.

The term 2x4 is just too general for me if it includes verbal bashing/beatings...that clearly have nothing to do with "helping". I've not only witnessed that sort of thing....I've been on the recieving end of it occasionally.

It's one thing to ask a poster if they are "ready to face the destruction of their choices and do the hard work it takes to makes things right"...in plain, tough and clear language that brooks no nonsense. It's another thing entirely to use language designed to harm, debase, and humiliate.....or just.....shut.....people.....up because they dare to have a different opinion!

The "tough approach" has many faces. In the hands of caring person like Orchid (and many many others), it is a powerful and EMpowering approach....toughness is tempered with a true desire to help and even when the truth hurts....the caring still shines through. The intent is clear, persuasive and powerful.

In the hands of someone who is not "caring" (or is just frustrated or having a bad day)....it can be abusive and bullying at times. The caring sure doesn't shine through some of the brutish language and treatment I've seen some folks recieve here.

Those forms:

<truth devoid of care>

<truth about revenge instead of justice>

<truth used as a club to bash the self esteem out of somebody>

.....is the opposite of empowering. It destroys even more of the self esteem than has already been damaged by infidelity (for both WSs and BSs). Afterall...it's not just the WSs who get bashed here....it's the BSs too. It can be vets or newbies....anybody. I'm not talking about "knocking a little sense" into somebody with the cold hard facts about their "actions"....people are hard headed, fogged and change is painful....but the <care> must be there.

You can be "all up in somebody's koolaid", in their faces, disagree vehemently, be frustrated with their inaction, challenge them!....and still communicate that you care enough about them to give it straight....no hearts or flowers. Those who do this consistently....are some of the best "counselors" we have....old and new.

Well, probably some directed at me, but the most important ones were directed at my WH Skirmisher. He was holding on to a wayward mindset and didn't realize it.

He completely believed that as long as he wasn't actively involved in either an EA or PA that it was OK to hold on to it as a possible option if things weren't going well in our M.

He got the snot beat out of him and actully finally got it. Result, there may be hope for us yet.

Time will tell.

Who