because when you made a decision to change - things are different

and when you make a decision not to change - you have the power to keep the status quo

Pepperband,

Well that may be so, but there are always those situations in which your spouse really has to do something different or you just can't live with them at all.

Fortunately, I did have a small breakthrough with him on the phone. First he made some excuses about having to draw analogies between our marriage and his first marriage because it's the only experience he has to draw on. And he tried to do that, it's my problem not his problem thing that he does sometimes. But eventually I got him to agree to not bring her up so much.

Before that, he did make some counter-complaints - 1- the affair - I said that was wrong, that I'm sorry, that we can talk about it if he wanted to. And told him, no I don't want to look elsewhere, I want to fix what's wrong so I won't be tempted to look elsewhere. Of course he complained that there was too much wrong that needed fixing, but he always says that. And he said I brought up an ex-bf a few times I said if I did, I'm sorry and wouldn't do that again and that if I had to do it all over again I would have cut off all contact with him when I got married. But I said we can only control what we do now, not what's already done.

The photo is a different story. He swears up and down that if the situation were reversed, I could still keep nude photos of an ex without him being upset as long as it was someone who was definitely in the past. He says it's just part of his history, therefore part of who he is, that's why he won't part with it. And he apparently has this thing where he's paranoid I'm out to change who he is (which I think is why getting him to change anything is like pulling teeth). But he says he never looks at it, which is possible because he has all sorts of junk he never looks at, so I guess I can let this one go.

At least he agreed not to bring her up so often, so I feel a bit better.

Thank you for sharing so much of what is personal to you

update -

Okay, some really interesting things are happening. He is starting to air some greivances, including my infidelity. So at least he is talking about it, which gave me the opportunity to tell him, yeah you should be mad, I messed up and I'm learning how to avoid that in the future, etc. (Short version).

And he agreed that I have good points, but it's not my good points that are the trouble and so that's why he's talking about the negative stuff now. And I realized that he doesn't talk about divorce the same way I do. To him a threat of divorce is just a way to get my attention and force me to take what he says seriously. It is not a decision or a declaration of what he really intends to do. I told him this and explained what the word usually means to me and why the first few times he did that I was absolutely devastated. But I said I understand now I was misinterpreting him.

So I guess that means I should just get used to the fact that when we air disputes he's going to sound like all doom and gloom, but I need to not read too much into that.

Your power is that you are changing because you want to change, so you do. He is afraid to change because he thinks that is what you want; fear dominates his thinking.

Women internalize, men externalize, as a rule of thumb. Yet men can and do change, if it makes them more comfortable.

Larry

I bet that begins to change as you both become more secure in having these types of convos. As he finds that you are a safe bet for expressing his fears, and for talking about your infidelity...his whole demeaner and outlook may change to something more positive.

My marriage is only 6 months old Aph, so we are just now starting to become intimate, really. As I am feeling safer and safer with him, I am opening up more and it's really becomming a very freeing thing for me to be able to tell him of my fears/concerns.

Well this is frustrating..it seems my snooping into his computer a while back is just as intolerable to him as my infidelities, and he blames MB. He called me a fanatic. What a Luddite. I told him he should know me better than to think I'd be involved in anything wasn't evidence-based and scientifically sound. And that I'd respect him more if he actually read something about it before practically accusing me of joining a cult.

Anyway, about the snooping..I told him I think it was the only thing that stopped him from having an affair and how could he possibly expect me to be sorry for that? I don't get this at all. I've given him permission to snoop on me, all my passwords and everything and I don't even think he's used them. I have to wonder if he even cares what I do.

I also said if he didn't want to do anything involving MB that was his business but he wasn't going to stop me just because he's afraid of change. And then later I brought up the topic of influence vs. control - spouses SHOULD be able to influence each other and be accomodating to each other's needs - that's not the same thing as being controlled or manipulated. I said that for things in general, not just MB, when he's so rigid like that it makes me feel like he just doesn't respect my opinions or care about what I think. I said I understand you're afraid of changing too much to suit me but there's got to be a middle ground.

Has it been awhile since you read this?

*LINK* here

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I call these states of mind Intimacy, Conflict, and Withdrawal. And regardless which state spouses are in, negotiations can be very difficult. - Harley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Aph,

Spouses should influence each other, but they cannot demand that the other be influenced.

When getting back to a state of intimacy so that the other is more likely to be open to being influenced, you need to start meeting their E/N's first. This will make them feel more inimate towards you and cared for.

And if you can do this, then you can introduce the POJA and he will be more likely to be willing to give it a try.

When I introduced my H to MB, I did it in a very gradual way. I knew he would balk if I just threw it all at him. He would have thought it was a cult.

I started like this (and made it fun for him)

"GB, do you think I meet your top E/N's?"

"J, what are you talking about? What are E/N's?"

"Well, they say that if a wife meets H's top E/N's he will always be in love with her"

"Really??????"

That got him interested because it sounded kind of naughty, and fun.

I explained them all to him, he picked his top five fav's...and told me how I rated on meeting them.

Then after awhile he got around to finding out what mine were. Now if I'm pissy, he'll be the first to say "I must not be meeting your top E/N's, I better work on that" And he does.

He is the first to tell me if I am slacking. Because quite frankly I have trouble with E/N's. Especially when I don't feel like meeting them. But the great things is that he can verbalize it, and DOES verbalize it, so I know I need to pay some attn to him.

On DJ's...I didn't just sit him down and explain to him how he was going to act from now on...I made it fun.

He would say something to me that was a total DJ and instead of lecturing him, I'd just say "VIOLATION! DJ!" And laugh.

Then he started askign what I was talking about.

Now he still won't read here, but he will let me read to him from here. He knows all the people through me talking about them. And he likes the concepts. Even POJA, but he especially likes knowing that I am going to try and meet his top needs. In fact he LOVES that because he knows he is going to keep getting sex and hugs and adoration! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And APH, there are a couple of major DJ's in what you wrote above. If you really did say it as you describe here, it would not have enticed him to be influenced or intimate...it would have put him on the defensive and maybe into anger.

Weave/Josie, now THAT is woman power! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JosieJones,

Well I when I tried that months earlier he didn't want to hear anything about it. And it's not like I was pushing it. I just suggested he check out the site and he comes back with that. But because MB is at odds with his views of snooping, he sees it as a problem and not a solution.

Pepperband,
Yeah I've read that before and just re-read it and I still don't know how to apply it to someone who refuses to bend, especially when in this case, if I bend and say it was wrong to snoop - that's entirely against MB principles and also implies, dishonestly, that I'd never do it again.

But both of you have given me ideas on how I can explain things a bit better. I'll try again.

BTW, making some changes now that I'm starting to feel better physically. The Lyme disease caused me to take 4 weeks to get over the flu. I'm still taking Rx medicine for post-nasal drip (it was getting into my chest and causing chest pain). However, I think I'm finally recovering well enough to exercise (no more chest pain except when breathing in cold air...all my exercise is indoors, though.) I returned to my yoga and threw in some aerobics today. I'm also going back to my weight-loss diet.

feel better

Aph - a question

Do people who know you well think you have a really good sense of humor?

Pepperband,

Yeah I think so. Is this just idle curiosity or is there a reason you're asking?

Yes, USE your sense of humor when dealing with your husband - make this all as lighthearted as possible - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pepperband,

That's no longer possible. He just said something to me so horrible even I can't repeat it here - and I have a pretty thick skin. I tried to ignore it, but when we were playing the online game I finally had to tell him, I'm in a bad mood so I think I'll just go.

Later I told him that it was because of what he said. I asked what he hoped to accomplish by saying that because now I can't enjoy his company at all. I had NO fun playing the game with him that time. None whatsoever.

In the same email he said I'm not taking his complaints seriously. So I basically said, I've done x, y and z what else do you want from me? - and that that was NOT rhetorical- I want to know.

I ended my reply there. I really do think I'm doing and saying everything I'm supposed to. But right now he just seems more interested in escalating things than resolving them.

Okay, so we have a date to talk on the phone about stuff tonight after work. (I called him to set it up - email just takes too freaking long).

Anybody have any suggestions?

Discuss ideas and concepts about developing the future structure of your marriage - try to avoid talking about the past if you can

Thanks, Pepperband.

It went surprisingly well - except he asked me to write a 10-year plan so he can see what's important to me. (Sort of a what do you want to do with your life for the next 10 years sort of question.) I went and did it, but the part I'm not happy about is that it's sort of a test to see if we have a marriage worth saving - which of course means he's still not committed to me.

I found out he really is more upset about the snooping than the cheating (a fact I find weird and a bit disturbing.) Swears up and down that he would have told me "some version of the truth" if I had just asked him and would have let me search his computer with him standing right there if I wanted to. But I did it behind his back so he feels "violated."

I'm a little worried that he's not more upset by the cheating than he is. He sees it as a paternity issue only - if we're not trying to have a baby, then it's not that big a deal. When I asked why he wasn't more upset, he said he feels like he shouldn't be all that upset because he had started looking as well. I can sort of understand that part of it.

And we talked about that thing he said, he pointed out he had said it was a hypothetical, true, but he agreed that it wasn't the best way to get his point across.

Anyway, after I sent him my 10-year plan, I sent him another email saying that since he gave me an essay quiz, I was going to give him a multiple choice one, gave him the list of 10 emotional needs and asked him to rank his top 5. He might still refuse but I figure now that he's asking me for info, it's worth a shot.