In the different states of marriage article that Pep linked, it says the only way to get back to the beginning, or a state of intimacy from withdrawal is through E/N's.

Your husband seem to be vascilating between conflict and withdrawal.

Maybe his anger is coming out a little more now that he feels safer in the marriage. Now he knows you are very much engaged in your marriage and in making it work, so he feels safe to let some anger out.

It's really not snooping when you are married, you are right. 2long wrote a good definition of the difference between secrecy and privacy. He seems pretty hurt that instead of being open and communicating with him about your fears... maybe he is hurt that you couldn't trust him to go directly to him and ask. He must want intimacy too, Aph.

I am surprised that he still doesn't seem to have the normal devastation people feel when they find out about an affair. Possibly withdrawal was a way to protect himself from this devastation.

I wouldn't be surprised if anger continues to seep out and he flashes between conflict and withdrawal for awhile longer, at least until you begin meeting his top E/N's.

I really feel this is the way to go. Through you meeting his E/N's and getting back to that place of intimacy and loving feelings. I'm glad you are looking to find out what his are. I wouldn't look for him meeting yours just yet though. Start with getting him back on board, as it says in Harley's article.

Thanks, JosieJones. I'll do that.

I hate to threadjack but what was 2long's definition of secrecy versus privacy?

cipher:

Ac2ally, it wasn't my definition. It was something Spacecase put 2gether from various sources, possibly Bryn Collins (though I think the specific quote is Spacecase's).


-ol' 2long

This is a venting post.

I still don't have an answer because first he said his email program crashed and then he says he's sick. It's just a little cold, and this is over a week he's making me wait. This is one of the things about him that really pisses me off. We have to discuss things on HIS time table because he doesn't like when I have to talk about everything immediately while he's still upset. But then he puts it off forever and doesn't even take my feelings into consideration at all. It was his idea for me to send that stupid thing in the first place and he doesn't even bother to get back to me in a reasonable amount of time. But there wasn't much I could do so I said hope you feel better and I'll talk to you in a few days.

I hate that he's always holding all the cards. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me (and knows it.) I don't even know if he's capable of that.

I just got an email from him on a different matter, but he said his computer is slowly recovering, and he's slowly recovering and it may take until Monday.

So I'm no longer pissed off because at least I know about when he'll be able to get back to me on the 10-year plan email. And he was the one who brought it up this time, and that helped a lot.

I'm replying to this so I can continue to watch it. Apparently when they changed forums, they lost all our Watched Topic lists. And for some odd reason, you have to post in order to watch a topic. Sigh.

BTW, it's been over 3 weeks and still no answer to the email he insisted I send. He says he's sick, but he's well enough to play computer games.

forgot to click the little box

Dunno if anyone is still reading this thread anymore, but we talked about the email (10-year-plan) over the phone so I wouldn't have to wait until he decided to read email again. Apparently he was okay with it, said that it was consistent with his, etc. So that turned out to be no big deal.

One thing I was told was that I have to find way to regain control. My H is a severe procrastinator. He often won't do what I need, but he fights if I try to get someone else to do it. For example I have curtains I asked him to hang 4 years ago; they're still sitting on the floor in the bathroom. In that case, for my own sanity, I need to save up the money to hire a handyman (you wouldn't want me to try to hang them!) and just get it done. I know - based on past experiences - that he'll be embarrassed and we'll have a fight, but I can't let that stop me from regaining control over what I need and want.

So can you find ways to redirect the control back to your hands? I have been told by IC that when my H says he'll do something (and I suspect he won't), I am to say, 'Great! I need to have it done by Tuesday night, so if it turns out you can't get to it by Tuesday afternoon, I'll do it myself. Ok?' What can he say to that? That he never intended to do it in the first place?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you cheat on your husband 5 times with 5 different guys, in addition to countless other cyber incidents and EAs?

You have no right to be so demanding of him. He is crushed and he knows he can't tell you that because you will use that information to ruin him. I'm sure he really wants to divorce you but doesn't feel he has the strength right now. You might have finished the job of his first wife and completely crushed his self-worth, and now he feels that if he leaves you he might be alone forever.

I'm not trying to judge you, I'm trying to make you understand how he feels. If you want this marriage, you have to accept this, show REAL remorse for your MULTIPLE infidelities and do what it takes to recover. So far it still seems like you're fence sitting.

Be happy you still have a chance. Most men would have kicked you to the curb right now, even those on MB after your many, many indiscretions. Perhaps you're just not the marrying kind? Marriage is only for those who choose and are capable of sustaining monogamy.

My bad. Wasn't paying close enough attention to what thread I was in. My advice is still valid, but Thambi's right. This is supposed to be all about him right now. You'll just have to wait it out.

Ahh, control.

The problem is, control is an illusion. If you are looking for control, or holding the cards, or having the upper hand, this is NOT marriage building, but power games.

In reality, the only power we have is over ourselves. The only power OTHERS have is what we give them.

So I would encourage you to stop thinking of things in terms of being able to control them, or control the outcome.

Why?

Because you can't.

What can you control? How you act, how your respond. That's all.

As long as you are talking about control over yourself, that's one thing and healthy.

If you are trying to control others, or control circumstances, this is likely to be met with disappointment, as you can't really control others or circumstances.
I sense the frustration.
That's right, do it yourself or hire out the job. Either way, I still suggest you not complain about your husband, it doesn't help and doesn't make you stronger.
That's right, He may not like it, and he's free to be unhappy about it, to be mad about it, or whatever. He is entitled to his feelings as much as you are.

He is also subject to any consequences his actions, or inaction might bring about.

It's ultimately a decision he must make as well.

That's right. You control what you are going to do.

Thambi,

I'm not demanding anything. He was the one who asked me to do something. I did it, and it took weeks to get a response. Normally if I ask someone to send me an email about something, it makes sense for me to read it right away and respond, especially if it's about something really important. I think it's common courtesy not to leave someone hanging when you're the one who requested something be done. (We did eventually talk about it, but I had to call him on the phone.)

If he wanted to divorce me, he'd be gone already. It's not that hard to get a divorce. And the fact that I messed up in the past is no excuse for him to mess up now. There are more ways to hurt a marriage than infidelity. A BS has two choices - stay or leave. And if you choose to stay, then doing things to drive your spouse away makes no sense at all and is counterproductive. So I should have to tolerate him being upset and expressing this upset in appropriate ways, but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate any and all forms of mistreatment. Remorse doesn't mean becoming a doormat.

Besides, this is not behavior that is a result of my affairs. He was ALWAYS like this. Not everything can be blamed on me, sorry.

I'm sorry but just from reading your post I can tell how much you just don't "get it" and that is what your husband is reacting to. Your posts are full of "I cheated buts...". Look around this site. You sounds just like a dozen other WS looking to rationalize or justify what cannot be rationalized or justified.

Look, you CHEATED on your husband with Five Different Men. You cybered with countless other guys. i'm not saying you alone are to blame. Odds are much of what drove you away was his fault. THAT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that you cheated. Until you are both together again and strong in the marriage, well you are going to have to put your own needs to the side a bit. Does that suck? of course. So does having the woman you love sleep with half a baseball team.

You seem to still be fence sitting. If you don't want this marriage, then don't put your BH through all this. Just leave. But if you do, well you have to roll up your sleeves and FIGHT.

He didn't make you have an affair. If you were unhappy you could have left. You chose to have the affair. Now you are choosing to stay. Either get in 100% or get out. Don't keep telling us the "if..buts". Your husband may take years to recover. Are you truly ready for that? It seems pretty obvious you are not, and you still don't get the severity of what you've done.

Sorry if this comes across as a 2x4, but the truth hurts and I honestly want to see your situation improve, which ever way it goes. Best of luck.

Thambi,

I've never been fence sitting. He was always the one threatening to leave (long before I confessed), but I made the mistake of thinking he meant it when he didn't. Apparently, you can't really take someone at their word when they say "I want a divorce" unless they actually file paperwork. Yes, he has the right to divorce me but I know him well enough to know that's not what he wants. It's a form of shock therapy to get me to do whatever it is he wants me to do. Unfortunately, he's not always clear as to what he wants me to do.

I've read all the books, and I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing. Looking at the long-term picture our progress has been three steps forward, standing still for a while, then one or two steps back. The steps back drive me crazy, esp. when they occur after I see some progress. That's my problem, I know, I am being too impatient.

I've been trying to tell him I'm willing to do whatever it takes to help him through this, but he said he wants me to go back in time and undo it all. Unfortunately, I didn't handle that very well but I apologized for that and said I'd be willing to do anything humanly possible.

I just wish I knew what to do that I haven't already done.

Aph,

The best advice I can give you is, BE STILL. Yes BSs can say mean, hurtful things. They can go into periods of depression and moodiness, they can lash out. It's your job not to respond. He is doing it because he is testing you. He wants to see if you are really sorry, if you will really take him back.

Instead of getting upset, have you tried sympathizing with him? And if he is disrespectful, try telling him calmly "I understand that you are hurting and angry. But you cannot speak to me in that disrespectful manner. I'm not shutting down, but if you can't talk to me like an adult then we can't talk right now." If you are firm on your boundaries, eventually he will get it.

You have to be the rock in this situation. Even if things don't work out, don't you want to know you gave it the best you could before leaving? You say he doesn't want to leave, and neither do you . That is GREAT! that's where you should start. You cheated on him multiple times and he is still with you. He clearly loves and values you. He has shown it by sticking with you through the worst possible situation ever (multiple affairs, no respect shown by you.)

But what have you done to show him how much you love him? You have moved away. Even if it was for entenuating circumstances, how does he know you aren't chatting with other guys online? How does he know you aren't cheating again? You have to try and understand his point of view. Be there for him. Allow him to vent. Show him you aren't going anywhere and that you love only him. And for god's sake, you two HAVE to live together or it will never work.

I hope things improve, I'm really rooting for you. You seem like a good person, it's almost hard for me to believe you've done what you have. Please remember it every time you get angry with your husband, remember what he has to think of when he looks at you. Maybe you will be a little more forgiving.

Hi Aph--

I just spent the past however many minutes reading all of your thread-- here and your one in "in recovery".

I just wanted to say that I feel for you. I, too, am the FWS... working hard on R the M. H 'doesn't know' what he wants and threatens over and over (every time he gets really mad and worked up) that he's going to leave. I, also, have used the "boy that cried wolf" to describe him (not to his face). He also plays the whole "I'm not doing anything for this marriage until I decide whether or not this is what I want" card. IE-- he keeps making the same mistakes over and over again that really hurt me and really pushed me away-- but just uses my A as an excuse to continue them at this point. This has been going on since September-- the whole "I don't know" bit He also tells me frequently that he doesn't feel the same way about me anymore, etc, but he, too, is still at home, and making plans with me, etc.

Oh, and BTW, H had 2 EAs prior to my A, and also had a revenge A afterwards. None (as far as I know, but sometimes I think I am missing puzzle pieces, but that is a whole 'nother story) were PA.

I've had NC with OM since November-- although, I was trying since May/June, it was just I was "too nice" about it (worried about hurting OM's feelings, yuck), and hadn't found this site, so I didn't know about a NC letter. I changed my phone number, and went true NC in November... but then he reared his ugly head again in Feb (after months of NC) and sent a 7 page love letter to my email account. Well, H found the email before I did (I had given him all of my passwords). That was like another mini-D day. That put us into a huge tailspin. I used that as my opportunity to send a TRUE (actually, nasty) NC letter at that point.

Anyways-- I just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone. And there are days (esp. my H's bad days) where I just want to give up. But I keep fighting, and slowly, I think we are making progress. H is still very "in his head" though and hasn't SAID anything, but I can sense changes in his ACTIONS. Things can't stay the way they are now forever, at some point he's gotta get on the boat, but for now, I can tolerate this, and give him time.

You've got the added complication that you are separated (right? I'm not confusing threads, am I?). That must make it really hard also. I can't imagine trying to recover while separated. I commend you for doing everything that you can though.

And I agree that missing your OM is probably most likely because you and your H are separated. At this point, my OM could fall off the face of the earth (and for all I know, might have) and I couldn't care less. It gets better.

Hang in there.

TT

Thambi and TeaTea,

Thanks. Both your posts put this into better perspective for me. I'll try to be more patient with him.

TeaTea,

We're only separated in the geographical sense. There's no legal marital separation or anything like that. But you all are right that we need to fix that situation as soon as we can.

Update:

Some time ago, to spend more time with him and be able to help fill his need for recreational companionship I decided to learn to play his favorite online game. Unfortunately, I think that's now backfiring on me. He's clearly more interested in advancing in the game than in spending time with me. He plays with me when he has "spare" time in between battles with his friends whose characters are more advanced in the game. I've been trying to advance my character but every time I get close enough to join him in one activity, he's on to the next. He tells me the "correct" way to play the game and gets angry if I make a mistake. When I told him I thought he was online primarily to advance in the game, not here to be with me, he said if we were here for me, we wouldn't be here - thus, confirming it. When we are online together, I can't tell if we're really having fun or if he's just putting in time with the wife so he can hurry up and play with his friends.

I know most people here are real quick to assume every problem is an affair, but he's said his online "friends" are not friends at all, but just casual acquaintances.

In the past, I've suggested other games or online activities but that never works. I just don't know what to do.